Who has a night rating?

[Marc Lattoni]

As a VFR only pilot, I thought it pointless to get a night rating due to the
potential difficulties of encountering a "black hole" and not having the
skills to get back to safety. But our flight school encourages us to
experience the beauty of night flying on clear nights.

Just wondering, how many VFR only pilots have and USE a night rating?

Marc

[Brendan Grace]

Night rated for just over a year now and no regrets. Lots of fun and gives
a bit of a fudge factor for leaving early or arriving late.

Brendan

"Marc Lattoni" > wrote in message
news:Kmw1c.128621$Hy3.30256@edtnps89...
> As a VFR only pilot, I thought it pointless to get a night rating due to
the
> potential difficulties of encountering a "black hole" and not having the
> skills to get back to safety. But our flight school encourages us to
> experience the beauty of night flying on clear nights.
>
> Just wondering, how many VFR only pilots have and USE a night rating?
>
> Marc
>
>

[G.R. Patterson III]

Marc Lattoni wrote:
>
> Just wondering, how many VFR only pilots have and USE a night rating?

Well, the night rating comes as part of the PPC in the U.S.. I used to fly a
lot at night until I got married. Not lately, though. I don't hesitate to make
a night flight if necessary - the last one I made was returning from AOPA expo
back in October. I don't carry passengers, though, since I don't fly enough at
night to allow it under the U.S. regulations.

Flying VFR at night in the New York - Washington area is pretty easy, though.
It can get pretty nervous once you get away from the lights.

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

[C J Campbell]

"Marc Lattoni" > wrote in message
news:Kmw1c.128621$Hy3.30256@edtnps89...
> As a VFR only pilot, I thought it pointless to get a night rating due to
the
> potential difficulties of encountering a "black hole" and not having the
> skills to get back to safety. But our flight school encourages us to
> experience the beauty of night flying on clear nights.
>
> Just wondering, how many VFR only pilots have and USE a night rating?

All US private pilots may fly at night unless there is some kind of
restriction on their certificates. Night flight is very common.

[Ben Jackson]

In article <Kmw1c.128621$Hy3.30256@edtnps89>,
Marc Lattoni > wrote:
>
>Just wondering, how many VFR only pilots have and USE a night rating?

Well, I'm in the US, so there is no special rating. Flying at night
makes me a little uneasy because 1) enroute, even if you are conservative
in your flightplanning, there is a good chance that a forced landing is
going to be on unknown (until you hit it!) terrain, and 2) there are
plenty of things to hit out there once you are descending into your
destination airport.

While flying off the insurance requirement for my Comanche my CFI and
I did a day cross country to Roseburg (RBG) that qualified for the
Commercial requirement. Looking at:

http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=43.238000&lon=-123.356333&size=l

You can see that it is surrounded by hills, obstructing the traffic
pattern on both sides. The hills are big enough to obscure your
view of the entire airport valley on downwind (assuming you're wide
of them). At night you might be tempted to fly a downwind directly
over them if you didn't know they were there. To give you some idea,
the instrument approaches to this aiport have MDAs ranging from 1200'AGL
to 2000'AGL. It doesn't look as imposing on a sectional.

Anyway, a few days later, needing to burn off a few more hours, I decided
to satisfy my night commercial XC. I was about to fly the same plan
when I started thinking about what it would be like to arrive at Roseburg
at night...

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

['Vejita' S. Cousin]

In article <Kmw1c.128621$Hy3.30256@edtnps89>,
Marc Lattoni > wrote:
>As a VFR only pilot, I thought it pointless to get a night rating due to the
>potential difficulties of encountering a "black hole" and not having the
>skills to get back to safety. But our flight school encourages us to
>experience the beauty of night flying on clear nights.
>
>Just wondering, how many VFR only pilots have and USE a night rating?

In the US private pilots can fly at night with a 'standard issue'
certificate. I use to do a lot of night flying right after I got my
certificate but not as much lately. I fly from KBFI (Boeing Field in
Seattle, WA). I never really had any problems save for take offs from
isolated fields (ie. no real horizon with nose up).
ATC was a lot more friendly, the air is really smooth, and it's just
all around more enjoyable to fly at night IMHO. Maybe if I was flying in
North Dakota or someplace that was all flat, all dark and moonless it
would be a different story :)

[Marc Lattoni]

It seems interesting that in Canada we learn to recover from spins and in
the US pilots learn to fly at night. (not to mention chandelles etc).

Wonder if one set of skills is preferable or whether pilots should learn
both.


"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Marc Lattoni" > wrote in message
> news:Kmw1c.128621$Hy3.30256@edtnps89...
> > As a VFR only pilot, I thought it pointless to get a night rating due to
> the
> > potential difficulties of encountering a "black hole" and not having the
> > skills to get back to safety. But our flight school encourages us to
> > experience the beauty of night flying on clear nights.
> >
> > Just wondering, how many VFR only pilots have and USE a night rating?
>
> All US private pilots may fly at night unless there is some kind of
> restriction on their certificates. Night flight is very common.
>
>

[Brian Burger]

On Thu, 4 Mar 2004, Marc Lattoni wrote:

> As a VFR only pilot, I thought it pointless to get a night rating due to the
> potential difficulties of encountering a "black hole" and not having the
> skills to get back to safety. But our flight school encourages us to
> experience the beauty of night flying on clear nights.
>
> Just wondering, how many VFR only pilots have and USE a night rating?

I added the Night Rating right after getting my PPL; I've been
in and out of currency ever since. The trouble is that most people aren't
interested in flying at night - "there'll be nothing to see!" - and I like
sharing my flights. (my wallet likes shared flights too...)

I'm currently out of night currency again (as of the end of Jan/04) but
I'm going do my legal minimums for currency sometime this month. I'm also
incredibly aware that there's a huge gap between 'legal currency' and
'practical currency'. I'll fly at least one solo night XC again before
taking pax up at night...

Brian - PP-ASEL/Night

[Ross Oliver]

Marc Lattoni > wrote:
>As a VFR only pilot, I thought it pointless to get a night rating due to the
>potential difficulties of encountering a "black hole" and not having the
>skills to get back to safety. But our flight school encourages us to
>experience the beauty of night flying on clear nights.
>
>Just wondering, how many VFR only pilots have and USE a night rating?


Night flying is one of my favorite kinds of flying. An S.F. Bay
tour at night is not to be missed, although IMHO, the best time is not
in total darkness, but in twilight while there is still enough
light to see beaches, hills, etc. And you have never seen a more
breathtaking full moon rise than one seen from 5,000 ft. It is this
incredibly deep red, because you are seeing it through about 100 miles
of atmosphere rather than the usual 2-3.

Night flying has its advantages: air is usually smoother, temperatures
are lower (advantage in the summertime, not so great in winter), traffic
is lighter, and much easier to see. Even GA aircraft can be seen
10-20 miles away.

I once flew VFR from Palo Alto, CA to Big Bear, 3 hours each way, both
ways at night. But there was a full moon, which cast a ghostly glow
on hills along I-5.

Granted, my requirements for night VFR are higher than daytime:
perfect weather (no clouds, at least at the altitutes I plan to fly),
IFR-equipped aircraft, higher fuel minimums, less tolerance for aircraft
squawks. I also try to preflight before sunset, although I chose my
current tiedown spot so that it adjacent to an airport light stand,
so even at night there is fairly good lighting.

Night VFR is a blast. Get the proper training and go try it.


Happy landings,
Ross Oliver

[Kyler Laird]

"Marc Lattoni" > writes:

>Just wondering, how many VFR only pilots have and USE a night rating?

I frequently flew at night when I was VFR-only. Heck, going between
Indiana to California in the winter almost guaranteed I'd be flying
at night.

One of the big advantages flying brings to me is being able to make an
overnight trip into a day trip. I often figure that the time I'd
spend dealing with a hotel is about the time I'd spend just jumping in
the plane and flying home. To take advantage of this aspect of
flying, you'll almost certainly want to fly at night.

OTOH, I flew single-engine night VFR (in flat Indiana) about as often
as I flew during the day when I first started. Then I experienced a
(very minor) engine problem on the way home one night. I'm reluctant
to fly single-engine night these days. I won't try to argue that it
makes perfect sense, but when *the* engine gets rough at night, I get
anxious.

--kyler

[Paul Sengupta]

Of course, the automatic-engine-roughner also comes into force
at night.

Paul

"Kyler Laird" > wrote in message
...
> I won't try to argue that it
> makes perfect sense, but when *the* engine gets rough at night, I get
> anxious.

[Robert M. Gary]

"Marc Lattoni" > wrote in message news:<iYx1c.129200$Hy3.3305@edtnps89>...
> It seems interesting that in Canada we learn to recover from spins and in
> the US pilots learn to fly at night. (not to mention chandelles etc).
>
> Wonder if one set of skills is preferable or whether pilots should learn
> both.

In the US we used to require spins before we figured out that more
students died with their CFI practicing them than actually ran into
problems. There are not enough CFIs out there that are qualified to
demo spins.

I do all most all of my night flying IFR. Personally, any night flight
out of the local area is IFR. I've lost one good friend who hit the
ground by accident at night (ref: NTSB N80720).
-Robert

[G.R. Patterson III]

"Robert M. Gary" wrote:
>
> There are not enough CFIs out there that are qualified to demo spins.

I thought every CFI has to be able to demonstrate spins for the checkride?

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

[Andrew Sarangan]

('Vejita' S. Cousin) wrote in message >...
> In article <Kmw1c.128621$Hy3.30256@edtnps89>,
> Marc Lattoni > wrote:
> >As a VFR only pilot, I thought it pointless to get a night rating due to the
> >potential difficulties of encountering a "black hole" and not having the
> >skills to get back to safety. But our flight school encourages us to
> >experience the beauty of night flying on clear nights.
> >
> >Just wondering, how many VFR only pilots have and USE a night rating?
>
> In the US private pilots can fly at night with a 'standard issue'
> certificate. I use to do a lot of night flying right after I got my
> certificate but not as much lately. I fly from KBFI (Boeing Field in
> Seattle, WA). I never really had any problems save for take offs from
> isolated fields (ie. no real horizon with nose up).
> ATC was a lot more friendly, the air is really smooth, and it's just
> all around more enjoyable to fly at night IMHO. Maybe if I was flying in
> North Dakota or someplace that was all flat, all dark and moonless it
> would be a different story :)

I did a lot of night flying in New Mexico, and it is not all that
different from flying in populated areas. A partial moon or even star
light is enough to see the ground. If you turn off all the cockpit and
panel lights wait for a few minutes, you will be amazed at what you
can see.

[Michael]

"Marc Lattoni" > wrote
> As a VFR only pilot, I thought it pointless to get a night rating due to the
> potential difficulties of encountering a "black hole" and not having the
> skills to get back to safety.

Doesn't your night rating include several hours of instrument
training? That's what it's for. If it doesn't then get it anyway.
Flting at night without the ability to maintain control on instruments
is just foolhardy, IMO.

> Just wondering, how many VFR only pilots have and USE a night rating?

In the US, it comes with the basic private license. Of course so does
some minimal instrument training. I think I had about 150 hours at
night (out of about 700 total) before I got an instrument rating.
Proabbly 20 of those were in "black hole" conditions - legally VFR but
no horizon.

Michael

[S Green]

"Paul Sengupta" > wrote in message
...
> Of course, the automatic-engine-roughner also comes into force
> at night.
>
> Paul
>
And when you cross the Channel

[Jay Honeck]

> > Of course, the automatic-engine-roughner also comes into force
> > at night.
> >
> And when you cross the Channel

And Lake Michigan...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

['Vejita' S. Cousin]

In article <iYx1c.129200$Hy3.3305@edtnps89>,
Marc Lattoni > wrote:
>It seems interesting that in Canada we learn to recover from spins and in
>the US pilots learn to fly at night. (not to mention chandelles etc).
>
>Wonder if one set of skills is preferable or whether pilots should learn
>both.

The uS stopped requiring spin training a while ago. Instead they teach
spin avoidance and stalls. I personally think that this is a bad thing.
Like most new pilots I was 'scaried' of stalls so i went and got some
aerobatic training. I learned that spins are no big deal. First it's
fairly hard to spin a 152, but know I know what it takes to ACTUALLY enter
a spin, no quessing/thinking that I might be close. And while it's true
that if you don't stall you can't spin it's nice to have 'real world' exp
on what happens and how to recover.
As for flying at night, I'm not sure. I really like it but the stats
show more fatal accidents happen at night.

[Robert M. Gary]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message >...
> "Robert M. Gary" wrote:
> >
> > There are not enough CFIs out there that are qualified to demo spins.
>
> I thought every CFI has to be able to demonstrate spins for the checkride?

yes, but that does not make them safe to teach them. I did all mine inverted in a D!
-Robert, CFI

[David Brooks]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
om...

> I do all most all of my night flying IFR. Personally, any night flight
> out of the local area is IFR. I've lost one good friend who hit the
> ground by accident at night (ref: NTSB N80720).

Unfortunately the Commercial certificate makes you take at least one night
cross-country VFR. Is that inadvertently instilling bad habits? :-) Even
more annoying, you have to bring along some CFI-ballast.

(I did mine Tuesday; it was a nice night around here).

-- David Brooks

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
"David Brooks" > wrote:

> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
> om...
>
> > I do all most all of my night flying IFR. Personally, any night flight
> > out of the local area is IFR. I've lost one good friend who hit the
> > ground by accident at night (ref: NTSB N80720).
>
> Unfortunately the Commercial certificate makes you take at least one night
> cross-country VFR. Is that inadvertently instilling bad habits? :-) Even
> more annoying, you have to bring along some CFI-ballast.

Not at all -- I have many 500+mile night trips under my belt (all VFR).
You just have to be extra careful about weather, so you don't get in
over your head.

Night w/low ceilings/poor vis + mountains = disaster.

[Big John]

Robert

On 4 Mar 2004 10:08:35 -0800, (Robert M. Gary) wrote:

>"Marc Lattoni" > wrote in message news:<iYx1c.129200$Hy3.3305@edtnps89>...
>> It seems interesting that in Canada we learn to recover from spins and in
>> the US pilots learn to fly at night. (not to mention chandelles etc).
>>
>> Wonder if one set of skills is preferable or whether pilots should learn
>> both.
>
>In the US we used to require spins before we figured out that more
>students died with their CFI practicing them than actually ran into
>problems. There are not enough CFIs out there that are qualified to
>demo spins.
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` ````````````````````````````````````
And a number of Airline Jocks crashed because they had never been on
their back. Now they call it "Upset" training and Airline Jocks get
basic acro instruction on a frequent and regular basis.
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` ```````````````````````````````````````
>
>I do all most all of my night flying IFR. Personally, any night flight
>out of the local area is IFR. I've lost one good friend who hit the
>ground by accident at night (ref: NTSB N80720).
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` ````````````````````````````````````````````
It's good to have some instrument training before night flying. When
you leave the urban areas the lights on the ground may match the stars
in the sky. If so, how do you tell which side is up without flying on
instruments? Or on an overcast night with no stars and out in the
hitherland where there are no lights on the ground, how do you tell
which side is up?

Basic instruments solves your problem in both instances.

Big John

[C J Campbell]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> "Robert M. Gary" wrote:
> >
> > There are not enough CFIs out there that are qualified to demo spins.
>
> I thought every CFI has to be able to demonstrate spins for the checkride?
>

No. You only have to show a sign-off that you have had spin training.

[C J Campbell]

"David Brooks" > wrote in message
...
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
> om...
>
> > I do all most all of my night flying IFR. Personally, any night flight
> > out of the local area is IFR. I've lost one good friend who hit the
> > ground by accident at night (ref: NTSB N80720).
>
> Unfortunately the Commercial certificate makes you take at least one night
> cross-country VFR. Is that inadvertently instilling bad habits? :-) Even
> more annoying, you have to bring along some CFI-ballast.
>

Not only that, but charter pilots are prohibited from filing IFR until they
meet minimum experience requirements. So you get a lot of low time scud
runners.

[Neil Gould]

Recently, David Brooks > posted:

> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
> om...
>
>> I do all most all of my night flying IFR. Personally, any night
>> flight out of the local area is IFR. I've lost one good friend who
>> hit the ground by accident at night (ref: NTSB N80720).
>
> Unfortunately the Commercial certificate makes you take at least one
> night cross-country VFR. Is that inadvertently instilling bad habits?
>
I don't think so. One just has to use good judgement and consider the
parameters of night flying. For example, if the weather is marginal for
day VFR, it would be a good idea cancel the night VFR.

Some positives:
* You can "see and avoid" traffic much easier, as you can see the running
lights from a lot further away than you can during the day.

* The air is typically much smoother at night.

* Landing is easier for some, because you can focus on more useful
indicators of your status.

Some cautions:
* Pilotage and map reading skills are important. Terrain is difficult to
see, so knowing where you are is more challenging.

* Finding an airport located within a city can be tricky.

Neil

[David Brooks]

"Neil Gould" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
> Recently, David Brooks > posted:
>
> > "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
> > om...
> >
> >> I do all most all of my night flying IFR. Personally, any night
> >> flight out of the local area is IFR. I've lost one good friend who
> >> hit the ground by accident at night (ref: NTSB N80720).
> >
> > Unfortunately the Commercial certificate makes you take at least one
> > night cross-country VFR. Is that inadvertently instilling bad habits?
> >
> I don't think so. One just has to use good judgement and consider the
> parameters of night flying. For example, if the weather is marginal for
> day VFR, it would be a good idea cancel the night VFR.
>
> Some positives:
> * You can "see and avoid" traffic much easier, as you can see the running
> lights from a lot further away than you can during the day.
>
> * The air is typically much smoother at night.
>
> * Landing is easier for some, because you can focus on more useful
> indicators of your status.
>
> Some cautions:
> * Pilotage and map reading skills are important. Terrain is difficult to
> see, so knowing where you are is more challenging.
>
> * Finding an airport located within a city can be tricky.

Roger all of that. I was only pointing out a slight irony. To the above
cautions, I'd add: learning how to detect clouds (with and without city
lights underneath) and *really* listening to the current reports from
Fligh****ch. A/FD reading skills are also important - both the airports I
used have traps for occasional night fliers.

-- David Brooks

[Brien K. Meehan]

"Marc Lattoni" > wrote in message news:<Kmw1c.128621$Hy3.30256@edtnps89>...

> Just wondering, how many VFR only pilots have and USE a night rating?

About half of my non-training hours between getting my PPL and
Instrument Rating were at night. I prefer flying at night.

[Teacherjh]

>>
No, it just has to be under VFR weather conditions. You can fly it IFR if
you want to.
<<

You're right. I never read it that closely.

What's the point then? I figured that (when I thought it was UNDER VFR) it
would show experience navigating visually outside the system (though you could
use flight following). I'd want to see a flight UNDER VFR, using pilotage, to
show that kind of expeirence.

Otherwise, what difference does it make whether it's VFR or IFR? (note there's
no IFR XC requirement)

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Gary Drescher]

"Teacherjh" > wrote in message
...
> >>
> No, it just has to be under VFR weather conditions. You can fly it IFR if
> you want to.
> <<
>
> You're right. I never read it that closely.
>
> What's the point then? I figured that (when I thought it was UNDER VFR)
it
> would show experience navigating visually outside the system (though you
could
> use flight following). I'd want to see a flight UNDER VFR, using
pilotage, to
> show that kind of expeirence.
>
> Otherwise, what difference does it make whether it's VFR or IFR? (note
there's
> no IFR XC requirement)

I guess under VFR conditions, you at least have to look out the window. :)
But I've never really understood the point of the training XC requirements
for the commercial certificate.

--Gary

>
> Jose
>
> --
> (for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[John Clonts]

"David Brooks" > wrote in message
...
> To the above
> cautions, I'd add: learning how to detect clouds (with and without city
> lights underneath) and *really* listening to the current reports from
> Fligh****ch. A/FD reading skills are also important - both the airports I
> used have traps for occasional night fliers.

Hello David,

Please elaborate-- what airports, what traps, and what information in the
A/FD is useful in avoiding those traps?

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

[Teacherjh]

>>
But I've never really understood the point of the training XC requirements
for the commercial certificate.
<<

I can understand XC requirements and training requirements, but I can't make
head or tail out of the wording:
"10 hours of solo flight in a single engine airplane ON THE AREAS OF OPERATION
LISTED IN 61.127(b)(1)... which includes... a cross country flight..."

61.127(b)(1) includes stalls, slow flight, navigation, takesoffs and landings..
stuff like that. Well, (except for stalls) how else do you fly? And as for
stuff like slow flight and emergency procedures, you're supposed to do this ON
YOUR CROSS COUNTRY?

Of course not, but that's not what the rules read.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Gary Drescher]

"Teacherjh" > wrote in message
...
> >>
> But I've never really understood the point of the training XC requirements
> for the commercial certificate.
> <<
>
> I can understand XC requirements and training requirements, but I can't
make
> head or tail out of the wording:
> "10 hours of solo flight in a single engine airplane ON THE AREAS OF
OPERATION
> LISTED IN 61.127(b)(1)... which includes... a cross country flight..."
>
> 61.127(b)(1) includes stalls, slow flight, navigation, takesoffs and
landings..
> stuff like that. Well, (except for stalls) how else do you fly? And as
for
> stuff like slow flight and emergency procedures, you're supposed to do
this ON
> YOUR CROSS COUNTRY?
>
> Of course not, but that's not what the rules read.

Hm, not really. FAR 61.129a4 says your 10 solo hours must cover the listed
areas of operation (presumably meaning all of them), and must include a
300-mile XC flight. But it doesn't say that the XC flight has to cover all
the listed areas of operation.

--Gary

> Jose
>
> --
> (for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Paul Sengupta]

"S Green" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Paul Sengupta" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Of course, the automatic-engine-roughner also comes into force
> > at night.
> >
> > Paul
> >
> And when you cross the Channel

Actually I was coming back from Guernsey (to Cardiff) in a Cherokee 140
one day, and it was very hazy. Every time I checked the carb heat it sounded
like I was picking up carb ice (and I was up to every minute or so, or maybe
less...). In the end I kept the carb heat on until I'd crossed the coast and
it
became less hazy.

Paul

[David Brooks]

"John Clonts" > wrote in message
...
>
> "David Brooks" > wrote in message
> ...
> > To the above
> > cautions, I'd add: learning how to detect clouds (with and without city
> > lights underneath) and *really* listening to the current reports from
> > Fligh****ch. A/FD reading skills are also important - both the airports
I
> > used have traps for occasional night fliers.
>
> Hello David,
>
> Please elaborate-- what airports, what traps, and what information in the
> A/FD is useful in avoiding those traps?

The displaced threshhold on Kelso 12 being unlit at night. I forget the
details of what the book says, but clearly it's tempting to land short.

Paine has a dual pattern for its runway (only one is open) after the tower
closes, and small planes fly a left pattern for 16R. To be fair, this is
announced on the ATIS, but that doesn't seem to help always: the plane
coming after me called in for a left pattern for 34L.

-- David Brooks

[Edwin B. Sullivan]

On 5 Mar 2004 12:16:15 -0800, (Brien K.
Meehan) wrote:

>"Marc Lattoni" > wrote in message news:<Kmw1c.128621$Hy3.30256@edtnps89>...
>
>> Just wondering, how many VFR only pilots have and USE a night rating?
>
>About half of my non-training hours between getting my PPL and
>Instrument Rating were at night. I prefer flying at night.

And lastly don't forget the first rule: In the event of an engine
failure at night wait til you reach 200 ft.then turn on the landing
light. If you don't like what you see, turn it off.

Ed Sullivan