Whew!

[Jay Honeck]

Just visited "alt.religion" for the first time (after taking the kids to see
"The Passion of the Christ" this evening. Tip of the Day: Don't waste your
money -- we ended up walking out mid-way through. This movie makes
"Scarface" look like a Disney flick...), and what a bizarre walk on the Dark
Side THAT was!

After ten minutes of lurking in that group, I started to feel unclean and
began pining for "home" amongst you guys and gals.

Man, their fights make ours look like the polite discussions they really
are... Thank you, all, for being voices of sanity amongst the rabble.

Doze people over dere be CRAZY!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:KNS1c.480170$na.1158588@attbi_s04...
> Just visited "alt.religion" for the first time (after taking the kids to
see
> "The Passion of the Christ" this evening. Tip of the Day: Don't waste
your
> money -- we ended up walking out mid-way through. This movie makes
> "Scarface" look like a Disney flick...), and what a bizarre walk on the
Dark
> Side THAT was!
>
> After ten minutes of lurking in that group, I started to feel unclean and
> began pining for "home" amongst you guys and gals.
>
> Man, their fights make ours look like the polite discussions they really
> are... Thank you, all, for being voices of sanity amongst the rabble.
>
> Doze people over dere be CRAZY!

The Passion of the Christ: Blooper Reel

http://www.themorningnews.org/archives/stories/the_passion_of_the_christ_blooper_reel.php

[Thomas J. Paladino Jr.]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:KNS1c.480170$na.1158588@attbi_s04...
> > Just visited "alt.religion" for the first time (after taking the kids to
> see
> > "The Passion of the Christ" this evening. Tip of the Day: Don't waste
> your
> > money -- we ended up walking out mid-way through. This movie makes
> > "Scarface" look like a Disney flick...), and what a bizarre walk on the
> Dark
> > Side THAT was!
> >
> > After ten minutes of lurking in that group, I started to feel unclean
and
> > began pining for "home" amongst you guys and gals.
> >
> > Man, their fights make ours look like the polite discussions they really
> > are... Thank you, all, for being voices of sanity amongst the rabble.
> >
> > Doze people over dere be CRAZY!
>
> The Passion of the Christ: Blooper Reel
>
>
http://www.themorningnews.org/archives/stories/the_passion_of_the_christ_blooper_reel.php
>

Was that a parody or was it supposed to be 'authentic'?

If it was a parody, it was kind of funny.

If it was supposed to be 'real', then they forgot one minor detail in their
fabrication; there was no english being spoken during the entire movie, so
the humorous banter regarding dialog and such would not have occoured.

[cn8cg]

Religious nut stuff.

[Jay Honeck]

> Was that a parody or was it supposed to be 'authentic'?

I think it was a parody. Funny, but just as weird as the movies itself.

The movie is quite disturbing, IMHO. It takes a lot to make me ill, and I
can't remember the last movie I walked out of before the end -- but this
movie managed to get me to do both. Why it isn't rated NC-17, I have no
clue.

I've never seen sustained, graphic violence depicted to that degree in any
movie. Hell, "Saving Private Ryan" with all of the violence of D-Day and
the subsequent battles, was NOTHING compared to this movie.

I'm worried about what our society has become that this movie is a "hit"...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Thomas J. Paladino Jr." > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> > news:KNS1c.480170$na.1158588@attbi_s04...
> > > Just visited "alt.religion" for the first time (after taking the kids
to
> > see
> > > "The Passion of the Christ" this evening. Tip of the Day: Don't waste
> > your
> > > money -- we ended up walking out mid-way through. This movie makes
> > > "Scarface" look like a Disney flick...), and what a bizarre walk on
the
> > Dark
> > > Side THAT was!
> > >
> > > After ten minutes of lurking in that group, I started to feel unclean
> and
> > > began pining for "home" amongst you guys and gals.
> > >
> > > Man, their fights make ours look like the polite discussions they
really
> > > are... Thank you, all, for being voices of sanity amongst the rabble.
> > >
> > > Doze people over dere be CRAZY!
> >
> > The Passion of the Christ: Blooper Reel
> >
> >
>
http://www.themorningnews.org/archives/stories/the_passion_of_the_christ_blooper_reel.php
> >
>
> Was that a parody or was it supposed to be 'authentic'?
>
> If it was a parody, it was kind of funny.
>
> If it was supposed to be 'real', then they forgot one minor detail in
their
> fabrication; there was no english being spoken during the entire movie, so
> the humorous banter regarding dialog and such would not have occoured.

Re-read the headline: (Translated from Aramaic and Latin)

[Peter Duniho]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:puT1c.461993$I06.5242721@attbi_s01...
> [...] Why it isn't rated NC-17, I have no clue.

Because in the USA, breasts are bad (or even one breast) and blood is good.

[Cub Driver]

>(after taking the kids to see
>"The Passion of the Christ" this evening.

The (high-school) kids think the movie is "cool." They all went to see
it. It's a test of manhood (boyhood, anyhow).

"Passion" was the only occasion in which I have found the Wall Street
Journal and The New Yorker in total agreement. (Like you, they said:
don't bother.)

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Cub Driver]

> there was no english being spoken during the entire movie,

There's an argument going on in rec.music.opera about the Latin used
by Gibson's crew. Evidently it's modern (Catholic) church Latin,
rather than the classical Latin taught in schools (when it was taught
in schools). Both evidently are wrong for the outlier parts of the
Roman empire 2000 years ago. Something more like modern Italian or
Rumanian would have been more suitable.

Give Gibson credit for stirring up a debate among Latin scholars :)


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Jay Masino]

Jay Honeck > wrote:
> Just visited "alt.religion" for the first time (after taking the kids to see
> "The Passion of the Christ" this evening. Tip of the Day: Don't waste your

You should have known better than to take your kids. It's not like the
graphic violence has been kept a secret in the press.

--- Jay


--

__!__
Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino ! ! !
http://www.oceancityairport.com
http://www.oc-adolfos.com

[Dennis O'Connor]

****I will break my usual rule against joining any public discussion of
religion, this one time...
If Christ was born in the time and place that the Bible(s) claim, then he
would have been a bit over 5 feet tall, have dark brown to nearly black
skin, and be of distinctly non caucasian visage...
As soon as I saw the ads showing the actor playing the role, I snorted and
dismissed any thoughts of actually viewing the movie... It's just another
cinema fantasy...
*********

> There's an argument going on in rec.music.opera about the Latin used
> by Gibson's crew. Evidently it's modern (Catholic) church Latin,
> rather than the classical Latin taught in schools (when it was taught
> in schools).

*****I'm old enough that I took four years of latin in high school - That's
the only reason I was considering attending the movie initially****

denny

[John Gaquin]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message

> ......(after taking the kids to see
> "The Passion of the Christ" this evening.

What on earth would have induced you to take kids to that movie? Have you
been unaware of the controversy?

[Tom Sixkiller]

"John Gaquin" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
>
> > ......(after taking the kids to see
> > "The Passion of the Christ" this evening.
>
> What on earth would have induced you to take kids to that movie? Have you
> been unaware of the controversy?
>

Yeah...almost as much controversy as Jay's Hotel .sig line.


--
"Don’t bother to examine a folly—
ask yourself only what it accomplishes. . . .
It stands to reason that where there's sacrifice,
there’s someone collecting sacrificial offerings
.. . . . The man who speaks to you of sacrifice,
speaks of slaves and masters. And intends to
be the master."

[Dennis O'Connor]

You simply demonstrated that you are capable of rational thought...
And, I was not able to get past the opening of Saving Private Ryan, so I
have not seen it either <obviously>... During the holidays, my family was
upstairs with the big screen TV and the Sorround Sound shaking the house as
they watched it... I went out to the shop and tinkered with the RV7...
Actually, I'm not big on cinema fantasy in any event... I think the last
movie I watched in it's entirety was when the original Star Wars screened,
so as usual I am the odd man out - though I did manage almost half of Batman
recently, before I got bored and wandered downstairs to watch the cat chase
her tail...
denny

"Jay Honeck" > wrote >
> The movie is quite disturbing, IMHO. It takes a lot to make me ill, and I
> can't remember the last movie I walked out of before the end -- but this
> movie managed to get me to do both.

[Jay Honeck]

> *****I'm old enough that I took four years of latin in high school -
That's
> the only reason I was considering attending the movie initially****

To Gibson's credit, the Latin didn't ever bother me. Usually I find that
sub-titles destroy a film, but in this case the action on screen is so
compelling that you just don't notice them.

Unfortunately, the action is so barbaric that I nearly barfed. (Example: A
ten minute scene with Jesus being whipped -- nearly to death -- with
fishhook-laden whips. If you want to see a human have his skin torn off in
slow, graphic detail -- front AND back -- this is the movie for you.)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> You should have known better than to take your kids. It's not like the
> graphic violence has been kept a secret in the press.

Well, there's violence, and there's violence. My kids have seen "Terminator
III" -- also rated "R", and quite violent -- without difficulty.

I think the motion picture authority really blew it by letting this movie
out with an "R" rating. It's easily NC-17, or worse.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> You simply demonstrated that you are capable of rational thought...
> And, I was not able to get past the opening of Saving Private Ryan, so I
> have not seen it either <obviously>... During the holidays, my family was
> upstairs with the big screen TV and the Sorround Sound shaking the house
as
> they watched it... I went out to the shop and tinkered with the RV7...

Hold it -- wait a minute!

The big news in this otherwise totally off-topic thread is: Denny's building
an RV7?

How long you been at it?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> What on earth would have induced you to take kids to that movie? Have you
> been unaware of the controversy?

Well, believe it or not we wanted to give our kids an unvarnished view of
the Christian religion. At home we (two hard-core,
brought-up-in-parochial-schools-but-fallen-away-Catholics) vigorously
subscribe to no organized religion, and we thought it would be good for them
to see the story of Jesus in a medium that they fully relate to and
understand -- film.

We have not had a lot of luck interesting them in exploring religions, yet.
For some reason organized religions have not plugged into the
"Playstation"/"Gameboy" marketing mentality, and getting teens and pre-teens
to sit and read the Bible is tough when their main competition is video
games.

In fact, the only fair competition for their attention is a movie -- thus,
our logic. (And, also, by the way, Mel Gibson's logic.) Mary and I figured
they were old enough to know that the violence depicted was simply
play-acting.

I didn't count on MY not being able to handle it. I've not seen anything
like it before, and I don't intend to see anything like it again.

Ironically, what we got from Mel Gibson's film is this: I can now almost
guarantee that neither child will grow up practicing *that* particular
religion.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Michael Houghton]

Howdy!

In article >,
Cub Driver > wrote:
>
>> there was no english being spoken during the entire movie,
>
>There's an argument going on in rec.music.opera about the Latin used
>by Gibson's crew. Evidently it's modern (Catholic) church Latin,
>rather than the classical Latin taught in schools (when it was taught
>in schools). Both evidently are wrong for the outlier parts of the
>Roman empire 2000 years ago. Something more like modern Italian or
>Rumanian would have been more suitable.

Greek. The Romans would have been speaking Greek.
>
>Give Gibson credit for stirring up a debate among Latin scholars :)
>
*snort*

I'm disinclined to spend the energy to see it, given that I didn't
muster the ertia to go see Master and Commander.

yours,
Michael


--
Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
| White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
| http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

[Jay Honeck]

> I'm disinclined to spend the energy to see it, given that I didn't
> muster the ertia to go see Master and Commander.

That was a good flick.

It's still playing around here, so maybe you can still catch it?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Masino]

Jay Honeck > wrote:
> I think the motion picture authority really blew it by letting this movie
> out with an "R" rating. It's easily NC-17, or worse.

Yea, that's probably true, but they HAVE been reporting in the press,
pretty regularly (and pretty graphically) how graphic this movie is.

--- Jay


--

__!__
Jay and Teresa Masino ___(_)___
http://www2.ari.net/jmasino ! ! !
http://www.oceancityairport.com
http://www.oc-adolfos.com

[Dan Luke]

"Jay Honeck" wrote:
> (after taking the kids to see "The Passion of the Christ"
> this evening. Tip of the Day: Don't waste your money

From the start I've felt there was something unsavory about Gibson and
his movie. Yesterday I found this:

Actor-director Mel Gibson talks about his new film, "The
Passion of the Christ," during a nationwide satellite
interview seen Sunday, Feb. 8, 2004, at North Ridge
United Methodist Church in Millbrook, Ala.

February 12, 2004

Mel Gibson has come under fire for being hard on Jews in
his film The Passion of the Christ, but apparently, he
feels that Protestants are also doomed to damnation. In
fact, it looks as if Gibson, a conservative Catholic,
believes that his Episcopalian wife could be going to hell.

Gibson, interviewed by the Herald Sun in Australia, was
asked if Protestants are denied eternal salvation.
"There is no salvation for those outside the (Catholic)
church," Gibson replied. "I believe it."

He elaborated: "Put it this way. My wife is a saint.
She's a much better person than I am. Honestly. She's,
like, Episcopalian, Church of England. She prays, she
believes in God, she knows Jesus, she believes in that
stuff. And it's just not fair if she doesn't make it;
she's better than I am. But that is a pronouncement from
the chair. I go with it."

That's creepy.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)

[Damian]

On Fri, 05 Mar 2004 14:52:13 GMT, "Jay Honeck" wrote:


>That was a good flick.

Unless you'd actually read the books by Patrick O'Brian (the Far Side
of the World is number 10 of 20) - arguably the finest fiction of the
Royal Navy in the Napoleonic period, when you'd realise the film was a
pale imitation of the books. Go find them - they are absolutely
excellent. The first volume is Master and Commander.
I'm not knocking the film, or your enjoyment, just saying if you
enjoyed that, you'd love the books even more.

And just to stay on topic, there are interesting notes on celestial
navigation and the balance of thrust vs drag, weight and balance etc
in the books - honest !!

(Hmmm - the Gundeck suite ? The Poop Suite ? You may find yourself
retheming the Inn.....:-) )

Damian

[Dan Luke]

"Damian" wrote:

> >That was a good flick.
>
> Unless you'd actually read the books by Patrick O'Brian
> (the Far Side of the World is number 10 of 20) - arguably
> the finest fiction of the Royal Navy in the Napoleonic
> period, when you'd realise the film was a pale imitation
> of the books. Go find them - they are absolutely
> excellent.

Amen. Easily the most entertaining, absorbing fiction I've ever read.
Not just for the thrilling sea action but also for the wonderful
insights into early 19th century life. They're funny, too. O'Brian was a
great writer - sad he's gone.

Warning: these books are utterly addicting, and there are 20 (?) of
them.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)

[Cecil E. Chapman]

> If Christ was born in the time and place that the Bible(s) claim, then he
> would have been a bit over 5 feet tall, have dark brown to nearly black
> skin, and be of distinctly non Caucasian visage...
> As soon as I saw the ads showing the actor playing the role, I snorted and
> dismissed any thoughts of actually viewing the movie... It's just another
> cinema fantasy...
> *********

Oh come on! Don't ya know he looked like Ted Nuggent?,,,,

Yeah,,, truth of the matter is the Western world wouldn't warm up to the
idea of Jesus looking like an Arab... hence that popular portrait most of us
have seen at one time or another - pleasant looking white guy with a
beard....

--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL
Student-IASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -
>

[Tony Cox]

"Cecil E. Chapman" > wrote in message
om...
> > If Christ was born in the time and place that the Bible(s) claim, then
he
> > would have been a bit over 5 feet tall, have dark brown to nearly black
> > skin, and be of distinctly non Caucasian visage...
>
> Oh come on! Don't ya know he looked like Ted Nuggent?,,,,

Funny, I always think of Paul Rubin (Peewee Herman). Oh well,
to each his own...

[Blanche]

I haven't read the various articles by the multitude of companies
that worked on the film, but I'd be most interested in both
the makeup and special effects (visual effects is the CGI, special
effects are the physical gags) to learn if they were using
chocolate syrup or karo syrup for the blood or the relatively
newer concoction that apparently looks fantastic but tastes
horrible, so the actors despise having the blood capsules in the
mouth.

My problem with going to a film with gore is that I'm more
interested in the technology making it happen, so there's
almost no impact for me.

Now, doesn't that just ruin the gore for you?

[Blanche]

Jay Honeck > wrote:
>Unfortunately, the action is so barbaric that I nearly barfed. (Example: A
>ten minute scene with Jesus being whipped -- nearly to death -- with
>fishhook-laden whips. If you want to see a human have his skin torn off in
>slow, graphic detail -- front AND back -- this is the movie for you.)

What? You never saw the episode of Buffy where Willow skins
Warren out of anger? Fantastic! Wonderful CGI! They even did
it in layers!!!!

[Dennis O'Connor]

dayummmm, Uncle Sam was right, loose lips do sink ships!
ahem, gulp, blush, uhh, shrug, ummm, weell that was a slip as I didn't mean
to bring it up. . .sorta been working on it for two years, though I have not
really done much this winter...
The empennage is 95% done... I'm setting the travel limits on the elevators
and I have to attach the tips, is all...
The wings are in the cradles and 80% done with 80% to go, if ya know whut ah
mean...
The fuselage fire wall is on the work bench and just getting started - tail
dragger configuration... There are racks full of aluminum all over the
shop... The only thing I lack is energy, ambition, time, motivation,
strength, and maybe a smidgen of help from the creator...
I have been thinking of the angle valve, 200hp, Lycosaurus with a constant
speed prop, but that could change if something better comes along...
denny

I went out to the shop and tinkered with the RV7...
>
> Hold it -- wait a minute!
>
> The big news in this otherwise totally off-topic thread is: Denny's
building
> an RV7?
>
> How long you been at it?

[Trent Moorehead]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:KNS1c.480170$na.1158588@attbi_s04...
> Just visited "alt.religion" for the first time (after taking the kids to
see
> "The Passion of the Christ" this evening.

Jay,

Please don't mention religion amongst friends, no good will ever come of it.

Remember, you expressing your distaste of organized religion can be compared
to a religious person espousing their love for it. Neither is ususally
welcomed unless in select company. This ain't select company. That's the
reason why the alt.religion group is the way it is.

I wouldn't care, but this is an aviation newsgroup after all.

-Trent
PP-ASEL

[John Harlow]

> Unfortunately, the action is so barbaric that I nearly barfed.
> (Example: A ten minute scene with Jesus being whipped -- nearly to
> death -- with fishhook-laden whips. If you want to see a human have
> his skin torn off in slow, graphic detail -- front AND back -- this
> is the movie for you.)

Lol - Reminds me of "Itchy and Scratchy" sub-cartoon of The Simpsons where
they take blood and gore to ridiculous proportions - mainly as a jab at the
desensitization of the American public (they always show the kids laughing
hysterically at the cat's ultimate demise).

Keep in mind the only goal of this movie is to make money, and exploitation
films are very profitable. The question is: what or who is being exploited?
;)

[Roger Halstead]

On Fri, 05 Mar 2004 03:50:02 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>Just visited "alt.religion" for the first time (after taking the kids to see
>"The Passion of the Christ" this evening. Tip of the Day: Don't waste your
>money -- we ended up walking out mid-way through. This movie makes
>"Scarface" look like a Disney flick...), and what a bizarre walk on the Dark
>Side THAT was!
>
>After ten minutes of lurking in that group, I started to feel unclean and
>began pining for "home" amongst you guys and gals.
>
>Man, their fights make ours look like the polite discussions they really
>are... Thank you, all, for being voices of sanity amongst the rabble.

Getting religion after a life of sin is the first sign of insanity.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>Doze people over dere be CRAZY!

[Roger Halstead]

On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 07:42:51 -0500, "Dennis O'Connor"
> wrote:

>You simply demonstrated that you are capable of rational thought...
>And, I was not able to get past the opening of Saving Private Ryan, so I
>have not seen it either <obviously>... During the holidays, my family was
>upstairs with the big screen TV and the Sorround Sound shaking the house as
>they watched it... I went out to the shop and tinkered with the RV7...
>Actually, I'm not big on cinema fantasy in any event... I think the last
>movie I watched in it's entirety was when the original Star Wars screened,
>so as usual I am the odd man out - though I did manage almost half of Batman
>recently, before I got bored and wandered downstairs to watch the cat chase
>her tail...
>denny

For me it's strictly escapist stuff. Sci-fi, fantasy, and wellll...
some documentaries. I've never even seen a so called "reality show"
and rarely even bother to turn on the local network affiliates.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>"Jay Honeck" > wrote >
>> The movie is quite disturbing, IMHO. It takes a lot to make me ill, and I
>> can't remember the last movie I walked out of before the end -- but this
>> movie managed to get me to do both.
>

[David Dyer-Bennet]

Damian > writes:

> On Fri, 05 Mar 2004 14:52:13 GMT, "Jay Honeck" wrote:
>
>
>>That was a good flick.
>
> Unless you'd actually read the books by Patrick O'Brian (the Far Side
> of the World is number 10 of 20) - arguably the finest fiction of the
> Royal Navy in the Napoleonic period, when you'd realise the film was a
> pale imitation of the books. Go find them - they are absolutely
> excellent. The first volume is Master and Commander.
> I'm not knocking the film, or your enjoyment, just saying if you
> enjoyed that, you'd love the books even more.

As always with movies made from the book, the movie is just a pale
imitation. However, for people who like to *see* things it has quite
a lot to see -- some rather nice footage of the ship sailing through a
storm, firing the big guns, and the confusion of a boarding action
come to mind as particularly well done.

Great books, certainly.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, >, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Photos: <dd-b.lighthunters.net> Snapshots: <www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>

[David Dyer-Bennet]

"Dan Luke" > writes:

> "Damian" wrote:
>
>> >That was a good flick.
>>
>> Unless you'd actually read the books by Patrick O'Brian
>> (the Far Side of the World is number 10 of 20) - arguably
>> the finest fiction of the Royal Navy in the Napoleonic
>> period, when you'd realise the film was a pale imitation
>> of the books. Go find them - they are absolutely
>> excellent.
>
> Amen. Easily the most entertaining, absorbing fiction I've ever read.
> Not just for the thrilling sea action but also for the wonderful
> insights into early 19th century life. They're funny, too. O'Brian was a
> great writer - sad he's gone.
>
> Warning: these books are utterly addicting, and there are 20 (?) of
> them.

Yep, 20 of the Aubrey-Maturin books. (There are some other O'Brian
books, but they're not part of the series and not very similar.)

When you run out of that there's always Dudley Pope, and
C.S. Forrester, and even Alexander Kent if you're really desperate (I
never made it all the way through the Kent books). And David
Donachie, and Walter Jon Williams, and lots of other people. It's
interesting to see the different research coming out :-).
--
David Dyer-Bennet, >, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Photos: <dd-b.lighthunters.net> Snapshots: <www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>

[C J Campbell]

"John Gaquin" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
>
> > ......(after taking the kids to see
> > "The Passion of the Christ" this evening.
>
> What on earth would have induced you to take kids to that movie? Have you
> been unaware of the controversy?

Oddly, the controversy seems to have centered on whether the movie is
anti-Semitic, not its violence. Since the only people who consider the movie
to be anti-Semitic are a bunch of intransigent hotheads who think any
mention of the crucifixion of Jesus is anti-Semitic, many people felt that
it was reasonable to ignore such extremist views.

Seriously, the only way that the ADL would not have been offended is if Mel
Gibson had depicted Christ as dying of appendicitis despite the heroic
efforts of his rabbinical doctors.

[C J Campbell]

"Dan Luke" > wrote in message
...
>
> He elaborated: "Put it this way. My wife is a saint.
> She's a much better person than I am. Honestly. She's,
> like, Episcopalian, Church of England. She prays, she
> believes in God, she knows Jesus, she believes in that
> stuff. And it's just not fair if she doesn't make it;
> she's better than I am. But that is a pronouncement from
> the chair. I go with it."
>
> That's creepy.

No. Mel Gibson does not feel like arguing with God. However, he has been
misinformed as to what God's opinion is. :-)

[C J Campbell]

"cn8cg" > wrote in message ...
> Religious nut stuff.
>
>

As opposed to anti-religious nuts, I suppose. Frankly, the supposedly
non-religious appear to be every bit as dangerous and bigoted as the very
devout.

[Garner Miller]

In article <puT1c.461993$I06.5242721@attbi_s01>, Jay Honeck
> wrote:

> The movie is quite disturbing, IMHO. It takes a lot to make me ill, and I
> can't remember the last movie I walked out of before the end -- but this
> movie managed to get me to do both. Why it isn't rated NC-17, I have no
> clue.

That's what this country has turned into. Unspeakable violence gets an
R-rating, but one flash of frontal nudity merits an immediate NC-17.
With all this talk about "desensitizing" kids to violence, which one
would you rather have then see as a teenager?


Here's a clip from the last paragraph of Roger Ebert's review of
/Passion/ :

==
Note: I said the film is the most violent I have ever seen. It will
probably be the most violent you have ever seen. This is not a
criticism but an observation; the film is unsuitable for younger
viewers, but works powerfully for those who can endure it. The MPAA's R
rating is definitive proof that the organization either will never give
the NC-17 rating for violence alone, or was intimidated by the subject
matter. If it had been anyone other than Jesus up on that cross, I have
a feeling that NC-17 would have been automatic.
==

Interesting.

--
Garner R. Miller
ATP/CFII/MEI
Manchester, CT =USA=

[G.R. Patterson III]

Tony Cox wrote:
>
> "Cecil E. Chapman" > wrote in message
> om...
> > > If Christ was born in the time and place that the Bible(s) claim, then
> he
> > > would have been a bit over 5 feet tall, have dark brown to nearly black
> > > skin, and be of distinctly non Caucasian visage...
> >
> > Oh come on! Don't ya know he looked like Ted Nuggent?,,,,
>
> Funny, I always think of Paul Rubin (Peewee Herman). Oh well,
> to each his own...

Unlikely. A carpenter in that period would be a very muscular man, though not
in the way body builders are. And someone a bit over 5 feet tall would be
about the same height as everyone else, so, unless you're going to photograph
the actor standing beside a yardstick, it doesn't matter how tall the actor
actually is as long as he's about the same height as the other guys in the
picture. In this day and age, anything from 5'9" to 6' would do. Dennis is,
of course, absolutely correct about the complexion, but Christ hasn't been
portrayed correctly since about 300 AD (if then).

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Damian wrote:
>
> (Hmmm - the Gundeck suite ? The Poop Suite ? You may find yourself
> retheming the Inn.....:-) )

Lessee .... A suite with 5' beamed ceilings, painted blood red, with sand all
over the floor .....

Naw.

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

[G.R. Patterson III]

David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
>
> As always with movies made from the book, the movie is just a pale
> imitation. However, for people who like to *see* things it has quite
> a lot to see -- some rather nice footage of the ship sailing through a
> storm, firing the big guns, and the confusion of a boarding action
> come to mind as particularly well done.

Even behind the scenes was very well done. They checked around until they found
a club that owns two functioning cannon and took them down to a National Guard
firing range. IIRC, one was a 24 pounder. They set up recorders both near the
guns and downrange and fired a variety of shot types (chain, grape, round, and
cannister). All of the sound effects in the battle scenes are mixtures of these
tapes.

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

[Jay Honeck]

> dayummmm, Uncle Sam was right, loose lips do sink ships!

TWO YEARS? And you've never mentioned it here? Jeez, just when you think
you know a guy.

Where the heck do you find time to build an airplane? I can't even finish a
novel!

It sure sounds neat. Hope to see you fly it into OSH someday...

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Yea, that's probably true, but they HAVE been reporting in the press,
> pretty regularly (and pretty graphically) how graphic this movie is.

I never, EVER believe ANYTHING I read in the newspaper about a movie. They
are usually 180 degrees off in their assessments.

In this case, however, they were correct.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> My problem with going to a film with gore is that I'm more
> interested in the technology making it happen, so there's
> almost no impact for me.

I'm usually the same way.

Not this time.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Rosspilot]

Here is my brother's review of same film:

http://ae.tbo.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=front_movie_theater_results&Movie_I
d=43285

He has been a professional newspaper film critic for more than 25 years.


www.Rosspilot.com

[Jay Honeck]

> Seriously, the only way that the ADL would not have been offended is if
Mel
> Gibson had depicted Christ as dying of appendicitis despite the heroic
> efforts of his rabbinical doctors.

ROTFL!

Actually, CJ, the movie is VERY anti-Semitic. Of course, how could it NOT
be?

The main antagonist of Jesus is a very, very bad Rabbi dude. His ability to
stir up the mob -- depicted as barbarians and idiots -- was ironically
reminiscent of Nazi newsreel footage.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Remember, you expressing your distaste of organized religion can be
compared
> to a religious person espousing their love for it. Neither is ususally
> welcomed unless in select company. This ain't select company. That's the
> reason why the alt.religion group is the way it is.

Good point(s), Trent.

And now, back to flying!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Dan Luke]

"C J Campbell" wrote:
> > That's creepy.
>
> No. Mel Gibson does not feel like arguing with God. However,
> he has been misinformed as to what God's opinion is. :-)

You could say the same of Osama Bin Laden. Zealots are creepy,
regardless.

I don't know what God's opinion is, and I deeply mistrust those who
claim they do.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)

[C J Campbell]

"Dan Luke" > wrote in message
...
>
> "C J Campbell" wrote:
> > > That's creepy.
> >
> > No. Mel Gibson does not feel like arguing with God. However,
> > he has been misinformed as to what God's opinion is. :-)
>
> You could say the same of Osama Bin Laden. Zealots are creepy,
> regardless.
>
> I don't know what God's opinion is, and I deeply mistrust those who
> claim they do.

I distrust violent religious zealots, including atheists and other
supposedly non-religious types who think it is their mission in life to
protect the world from those who have religious beliefs. None of them can be
trusted.

I also distrust those who profess religious belief, but who feel that their
religion's beliefs and practices somehow do not apply to them. I distrust
those who publicly express religious beliefs, but who are privately
irreligious.

In short, I distrust those who are violent and dishonest, whether they are
religious or not. All such are creepy. I have no reason to believe that Mel
Gibson is either violent or dishonest.

[C J Campbell]

Personally, I avoid movies that are considered unsuitable for children. Take
"The Passion of the Christ," for example. What is spiritually uplifting
about it? If the film is not entertaining, does not lift my spirit, and
apparently only depicts violence for the sake of violence, why would I
subject myself to it?

[Rosspilot]

>Here is my brother's review of same film:

http://ae.tbo.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=front_movie_theater_results&Movie_I
d=43285



www.Rosspilot.com

[Roger Halstead]

On 5 Mar 2004 09:59:32 -0700, Blanche >
wrote:

>Jay Honeck > wrote:
>>Unfortunately, the action is so barbaric that I nearly barfed. (Example: A
>>ten minute scene with Jesus being whipped -- nearly to death -- with
>>fishhook-laden whips. If you want to see a human have his skin torn off in
>>slow, graphic detail -- front AND back -- this is the movie for you.)
>
>What? You never saw the episode of Buffy where Willow skins
>Warren out of anger? Fantastic! Wonderful CGI! They even did
>it in layers!!!!

They only needed odor vision to finish it off<:-))

Freshly skinned and *very* realistic. Told you I like ecapist
*stuff*.


Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>

[Cub Driver]

>Jesus looking like an Arab...

Maybe he looked like an Iranian :)


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Cub Driver]

>Amen. Easily the most entertaining, absorbing fiction I've ever read.

My daughter and her husband swear by them, but I never got past the
first couple of chapters.

I loved the movie, however. Saw it on the plane. But then I often
enjoy in-flight movies, just as I used to enjoy in-flight meals. (You
should have seen the meal that went with Master & Commander! There was
an Oreo cookie and a ... mercifully, I forget.)

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Cub Driver]

>Ironically, what we got from Mel Gibson's film is this: I can now almost
>guarantee that neither child will grow up practicing *that* particular
>religion.

Jay, you can't possibly make sure a prediction. Several of my
daughters grade-school chums grew up to be intensely religious, one of
them after a detour through the Naval Academy and Pensacola.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Cub Driver]

> Since the only people who consider the movie
>to be anti-Semitic are a bunch of intransigent hotheads

The Wall Street Journal reviewer did take time out from his
description of the torture to point out that the Romans were falsely
depicted as benign, procedure-oriented, dispassionate rulers who were
more or less forced into the crucifixion by rabid, Jesus-hating Jews.
I envision the American army in Iraq, trying to mediate between Sunni
and Shi'a. The WSJ reviewer (okay, okay, his name ends in "stern")
thought that this was an a-historical view of Pilate and the Romans
generally.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Cub Driver]

Reminds me of that guy on Seinfeld--Elaine's boyfriend.

"Do you mean that you think I'm going to hell?"

"Yeah."

"Doesn't that bother you? I'm going to burn in hell for, oh, years and
years--doesn't that bother you?"

"Why should it bother me? I'm not going to hell; you are."

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Jay Honeck]

> As opposed to anti-religious nuts, I suppose. Frankly, the supposedly
> non-religious appear to be every bit as dangerous and bigoted as the very
> devout.

Agreed.

Extremists at either end of the spectrum are dangerous.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Jay, you can't possibly make sure a prediction. Several of my
> daughters grade-school chums grew up to be intensely religious, one of
> them after a detour through the Naval Academy and Pensacola.

Well, that's true. At some point, they will reach their own spiritual
crossroads.

I just don't think this flick does anything to portray Christianity in a
positive light -- and I doubt that was Mel Gibson's intended outcome.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[C J Campbell]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
>
> Reminds me of that guy on Seinfeld--Elaine's boyfriend.
>
> "Do you mean that you think I'm going to hell?"
>
> "Yeah."
>
> "Doesn't that bother you? I'm going to burn in hell for, oh, years and
> years--doesn't that bother you?"
>
> "Why should it bother me? I'm not going to hell; you are."

I went to Hell back in December. It was quite nice. We sent out some
postcards ("Wish you were here") and Christmas cards ("Merry Christmas from
Hell") and took some pictures of us with the devil (he doesn't give
autographs) and bought the T-shirt from Hell.

I would like to open a flight school there. People would come from all over
to learn to fly with the flight instructor from Hell. I would also sell an
ultralight or small plane kit called the Bat, so people could fly a Bat out
of Hell.

Jane and I are planning to go back in November. This time I would like to
fly us there, so I can land in Hell.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
> I distrust violent religious zealots, including atheists and other
> supposedly non-religious types who think it is their mission in life to
> protect the world from those who have religious beliefs. None of them can
be
> trusted.

You just named 105% of the population of the Earth.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:6cl2c.494584$na.1169886@attbi_s04...
> > In short, I distrust those who are violent and dishonest, whether they
are
> > religious or not. All such are creepy. I have no reason to believe that
> Mel
> > Gibson is either violent or dishonest.
>
> True. But his views of his wife's ultimate demise *are* creepy, IMHO.
>
> If one really believed that their spouse was doomed to eternal damnation,
as
> Gibson seems to, can you imagine the day-to-day dynamic between them?
What
> interesting dinner conversations they must have!
>
Mel:"Honey?"
Wife: "Yes, Mel?"
Mel: "Go to hell!!".

[Tom Sixkiller]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Cub Driver" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Reminds me of that guy on Seinfeld--Elaine's boyfriend.
> >
> > "Do you mean that you think I'm going to hell?"
> >
> > "Yeah."
> >
> > "Doesn't that bother you? I'm going to burn in hell for, oh, years and
> > years--doesn't that bother you?"
> >
> > "Why should it bother me? I'm not going to hell; you are."
>
> I went to Hell back in December. It was quite nice. We sent out some
> postcards ("Wish you were here") and Christmas cards ("Merry Christmas
from
> Hell") and took some pictures of us with the devil (he doesn't give
> autographs) and bought the T-shirt from Hell.
>
> I would like to open a flight school there. People would come from all
over
> to learn to fly with the flight instructor from Hell. I would also sell an
> ultralight or small plane kit called the Bat, so people could fly a Bat
out
> of Hell.
>
> Jane and I are planning to go back in November. This time I would like to
> fly us there, so I can land in Hell.
>
Come to Arizona in July...we'll teach you what hell is really like.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>
> "cn8cg" > wrote in message
...
> > Religious nut stuff.
> >
> >
>
> As opposed to anti-religious nuts, I suppose. Frankly, the supposedly
> non-religious appear to be every bit as dangerous and bigoted as the very
> devout.

The non-religious didn't slaughter 260 million in the past 1000 years.

[C J Campbell]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> "C J Campbell" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "cn8cg" > wrote in message
> ...
> > > Religious nut stuff.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > As opposed to anti-religious nuts, I suppose. Frankly, the supposedly
> > non-religious appear to be every bit as dangerous and bigoted as the
very
> > devout.
>
> The non-religious didn't slaughter 260 million in the past 1000 years.
>
>

Nonsense. The Nazis alone slaughtered more than that. And they are
definitely secular.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> ...

> >
> > The non-religious didn't slaughter 260 million in the past 1000 years.
> >
> >
>
> Nonsense. The Nazis alone slaughtered more than that. And they are
> definitely secular.

The Nazi's killed 30 million and Germany was 82% Protestant, 12% Catholic,
6% Jewish.

Hitler seeking power, wrote in Mein Kampf. "... I am convinced that I am
acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the
Lord's work." Years later, when in power, he quoted those same words in a
Reichstag speech in 1938.

Three years later, "I am now as before a Catholic..." the quotation from
Hitler was recorded in the diary of Gerhard Engel, an SS Adjutant, in
October 1941. Hitler was speaking in private, not before a mass audience,
and so it is difficult to dismiss the comment as propaganda lies. Great
literature was banned by his church, but his miserable Mein Kampf never
appeared on the Index of Forbidden Books

[Ash Wyllie]

Jay Honeck opined

>> As opposed to anti-religious nuts, I suppose. Frankly, the supposedly
>> non-religious appear to be every bit as dangerous and bigoted as the very
>> devout.

>Agreed.

>Extremists at either end of the spectrum are dangerous.

your extremists are dangerous, my extremists aren't :).


-ash
Cthulhu for President!
Why vote for a lesser evil?

[me]

See you in the Caymans !!!
"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Cub Driver" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Reminds me of that guy on Seinfeld--Elaine's boyfriend.
> >
> > "Do you mean that you think I'm going to hell?"
> >
> > "Yeah."
> >
> > "Doesn't that bother you? I'm going to burn in hell for, oh, years and
> > years--doesn't that bother you?"
> >
> > "Why should it bother me? I'm not going to hell; you are."
>
> I went to Hell back in December. It was quite nice. We sent out some
> postcards ("Wish you were here") and Christmas cards ("Merry Christmas
from
> Hell") and took some pictures of us with the devil (he doesn't give
> autographs) and bought the T-shirt from Hell.
>
> I would like to open a flight school there. People would come from all
over
> to learn to fly with the flight instructor from Hell. I would also sell an
> ultralight or small plane kit called the Bat, so people could fly a Bat
out
> of Hell.
>
> Jane and I are planning to go back in November. This time I would like to
> fly us there, so I can land in Hell.
>
>

[C J Campbell]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> "C J Campbell" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> > ...
>
> > >
> > > The non-religious didn't slaughter 260 million in the past 1000 years.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Nonsense. The Nazis alone slaughtered more than that. And they are
> > definitely secular.
>
> The Nazi's killed 30 million and Germany was 82% Protestant, 12% Catholic,
> 6% Jewish.
>
> Hitler seeking power, wrote in Mein Kampf. "... I am convinced that I am
> acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing
the
> Lord's work." Years later, when in power, he quoted those same words in a
> Reichstag speech in 1938.
>
> Three years later, "I am now as before a Catholic..." the quotation from
> Hitler was recorded in the diary of Gerhard Engel, an SS Adjutant, in
> October 1941. Hitler was speaking in private, not before a mass audience,
> and so it is difficult to dismiss the comment as propaganda lies. Great
> literature was banned by his church, but his miserable Mein Kampf never
> appeared on the Index of Forbidden Books
>
>

Whether Hitler claimed to be a Catholic or not, he is very much secular. I
guess the Ukrainians, fellow Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons,
Russians, Italians, Yugoslavs, French, Danes, Dutch, and everyone else who
Hitler slaughtered are all very happy to know that they don't count in your
tally of 30 million. I guess their lives don't mean very much.

In addition to the Nazis, though, you have wholesale exterminations by the
Soviet Communists, the Chinese Communists, the Khmer Rouge, the French
Terror and the Napoleonic empire that followed it, Hussein's Iraq, the
Shah's Iran, Pancho Villa and many other secular regimes and terrorists that
slaughtered hundreds of millions.

Since secularists are so proud of claiming that the founding fathers of the
US were secularists, I suppose the extermination of the American Indians was
also fostered by secularists.

Your statistics about religionists slaughtering 260 million are a little
suspect, too. How is that calculated? I would not be surprised if that
number is wildly off, either way.

Whenever I hear someone claim that religious belief causes all the wars and
misery in the world, I someone who is buying into the idea of
disenfranchising all the people he hates, rounding them up, and
exterminating them.

It is all about money and property. Religion is sometimes used as an excuse,
but it is always about gold and power.

[C J Campbell]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> "C J Campbell" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I distrust violent religious zealots, including atheists and other
> > supposedly non-religious types who think it is their mission in life to
> > protect the world from those who have religious beliefs. None of them
can
> be
> > trusted.
>
> You just named 105% of the population of the Earth.

Pretty much. Trust no one. Well, maybe you can trust Superman. And you can
trust me. But no one else.

[C J Campbell]

"Greg Burkhart" > wrote in message news:jRn2c.60600>
> I took my girlfriend to Hell a few years ago in September. Walked all over
> Hell, didn't take long. Nice dam and lake there. I don't remember an
airport
> near that area, probably Cackleberry, Carriage Lane or Richmond Field are
> the closest?
>

No, got to build an airport first. There are no airports down in Hell. (and
if you know the original words to that song, you really are old)

The nearest airport to hell is Roberts International, unless there are some
private strips in the area.

[C J Campbell]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...
>
> "C J Campbell" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Jane and I are planning to go back in November. This time I would like
to
> > fly us there, so I can land in Hell.
> >
> Come to Arizona in July...we'll teach you what hell is really like.

Already done that. Jane's sister lives in Avondale. We were walking away
from the plane at Glendale and heard a loud 'bang.' Looked back and a tire
had blown. It was 115 degrees officially, but I bet it was hotter on the
ramp.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "C J Campbell" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> >
> > > >
> > > > The non-religious didn't slaughter 260 million in the past 1000
years.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Nonsense. The Nazis alone slaughtered more than that. And they are
> > > definitely secular.
> >
> > The Nazi's killed 30 million and Germany was 82% Protestant, 12%
Catholic,
> > 6% Jewish.
> >
> > Hitler seeking power, wrote in Mein Kampf. "... I am convinced that I am
> > acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing
> the
> > Lord's work." Years later, when in power, he quoted those same words in
a
> > Reichstag speech in 1938.
> >
> > Three years later, "I am now as before a Catholic..." the quotation from
> > Hitler was recorded in the diary of Gerhard Engel, an SS Adjutant, in
> > October 1941. Hitler was speaking in private, not before a mass
audience,
> > and so it is difficult to dismiss the comment as propaganda lies. Great
> > literature was banned by his church, but his miserable Mein Kampf never
> > appeared on the Index of Forbidden Books
> >
> >
>
> Whether Hitler claimed to be a Catholic or not, he is very much secular.

Nope, he's the empitome of what happens under religion.
>I
> guess the Ukrainians, fellow Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons,
> Russians, Italians, Yugoslavs, French, Danes, Dutch, and everyone else who
> Hitler slaughtered are all very happy to know that they don't count in
your
> tally of 30 million. I guess their lives don't mean very much.

You got another number?

>
> In addition to the Nazis, though, you have wholesale exterminations by the
> Soviet Communists, the Chinese Communists, the Khmer Rouge, the French
> Terror and the Napoleonic empire that followed it, Hussein's Iraq, the
> Shah's Iran, Pancho Villa and many other secular regimes and terrorists
that
> slaughtered hundreds of millions.

Got some numbers...or just religion?

> Since secularists are so proud of claiming that the founding fathers of
the
> US were secularists, I suppose the extermination of the American Indians
was
> also fostered by secularists.

I knew that religion rotted the brain, but...

>
> Your statistics about religionists slaughtering 260 million are a little
> suspect, too. How is that calculated? I would not be surprised if that
> number is wildly off, either way.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0879755784/qid=1078640757//ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i2_xgl14/103-7266852-4091058?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

But you can just start another spin (Funny isn;t, how conservative can spin
just as well as other groups).

>
> Whenever I hear someone claim that religious belief causes all the wars
and
> misery in the world, I someone who is buying into the idea of
> disenfranchising all the people he hates, rounding them up, and
> exterminating them.

Think of what religious belief is based on...


> It is all about money and property. Religion is sometimes used as an
excuse,
> but it is always about gold and power.

And the two are handmaidens. Think of the interrelations...

[Tom Sixkiller]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "C J Campbell" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > I distrust violent religious zealots, including atheists and other
> > > supposedly non-religious types who think it is their mission in life
to
> > > protect the world from those who have religious beliefs. None of them
> can
> > be
> > > trusted.
> >
> > You just named 105% of the population of the Earth.
>
> Pretty much. Trust no one. Well, maybe you can trust Superman. And you can
> trust me. But no one else.
>
I trust no one who shoves their head up their ass and calls it "the word of
god".

[Tom Sixkiller]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "C J Campbell" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > Jane and I are planning to go back in November. This time I would like
> to
> > > fly us there, so I can land in Hell.
> > >
> > Come to Arizona in July...we'll teach you what hell is really like.
>
> Already done that. Jane's sister lives in Avondale. We were walking away
> from the plane at Glendale and heard a loud 'bang.' Looked back and a tire
> had blown. It was 115 degrees officially, but I bet it was hotter on the
> ramp.
>
Remember that official temperature is measured in the shade...in the sun it
can be 140-150 or more.

[Martin Hotze]

On Sat, 6 Mar 2004 20:37:10 -0800, C J Campbell wrote:

>In addition to the Nazis, though, you have wholesale exterminations by the
>Soviet Communists, the Chinese Communists, the Khmer Rouge, the French
>Terror and the Napoleonic empire that followed it, Hussein's Iraq, the
>Shah's Iran, Pancho Villa and many other secular regimes and terrorists that
>slaughtered hundreds of millions.

your listing is incomplete. not to play down all the above listed cruelties
(au contraire), but there was also some slaughter towards the native
american tribes (Indians).

#m
--
http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=19990509

[Cub Driver]

>> The non-religious didn't slaughter 260 million in the past 1000 years.
>>
>>
>
>Nonsense. The Nazis alone slaughtered more than that. And they are
>definitely secular.

No, that would have been impossible. The big round figure for WWII
dead is 55 million.

But your point is well taken. Religious wars have generally been
peanuts compared to the secular ones.

Indeed, all wars have been peanuts compared to WWI and WWII. Each in
its time was the worst thing that ever happened, and neither had
anything to do with religion.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Cub Driver]

>The nearest airport to hell is Roberts International, unless there are some
>private strips in the area.

I was under the impression that the Gates to Hell were located in the
tunnel between the B and C concourses of O'Hare.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
>
> >> The non-religious didn't slaughter 260 million in the past 1000 years.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Nonsense. The Nazis alone slaughtered more than that. And they are
> >definitely secular.
>
> No, that would have been impossible. The big round figure for WWII
> dead is 55 million.
>
> But your point is well taken. Religious wars have generally been
> peanuts compared to the secular ones.

Quite the opposite if given relative population levels and leathality of
weapons.

Europe's religious war alone killed the aforementioned 260M during a period
the population average was less than 200M. That was a time when the bow and
arrow was the high tech weapon of the day.

>
> Indeed, all wars have been peanuts compared to WWI and WWII. Each in
> its time was the worst thing that ever happened, and neither had
> anything to do with religion.

Do a bit of a read on the religious wars of the Dark and Middle Ages
(Hundred Years War, Crusades, etc) and compare the numbers when the
population of Europe was about one-fourth what it was in the 1940's.

Recall, too, tht both Germany and Japan claimed something of a "divine
right" of conquest. Then, too, the parallels between Marxism and religion
are stunning (speaking of the "thought" process, not the manifesation).

[Dan Luke]

"Tom Sixkiller" wrote:
> Remember that official temperature is measured in the shade...
> in the sun it can be 140-150 or more.

When I lived on Williams AFB as a little kid, ISTR my parents' having to
park the car with the windows open to prevent the glass being cracked by
heat buildup. Do people in the Valley still have to do that, or is auto
glass tougher now (that was in the '50s)?
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)

[Jay Honeck]

> Pretty much. Trust no one. Well, maybe you can trust Superman. And you can
> trust me. But no one else.

It's funny. I'm as close to agnostic as anyone here, yet in most
circumstances I will trust anyone -- until they prove themselves not worthy
of my trust.

(Then I get even. ;-)

Must be that Midwestern thing. I firmly believe in the innate goodness
within us all.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> > Come to Arizona in July...we'll teach you what hell is really like.

Back in our pre-kid days, we did our "motorcycle trip of a lifetime" -- a
ride from Wisconsin to California and back, camping all the way.

Unfortunately, I changed jobs mid-way into our planning, which cut my
vacation time from 3 weeks to 2 weeks. In order to make the trip work, we
had to shave a week off -- which meant shipping our motorcycle to an aunt's
house in Phoenix, and starting from there.

When we departed Phoenix, in late June, I thought I was riding on the
surface of Venus. That place was the dirtiest, hottest, ugliest, most
desolate place I'd ever seen. I couldn't believe there were a million
people living in that hell-hole. (Of course, since then I've seen Phoenix
at its best, in winter. :-)

Five days later, we were riding in snow in Yellowstone...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Dan Luke" > wrote in message
...
> "Tom Sixkiller" wrote:
> > Remember that official temperature is measured in the shade...
> > in the sun it can be 140-150 or more.
>
> When I lived on Williams AFB as a little kid, ISTR my parents' having to
> park the car with the windows open to prevent the glass being cracked by
> heat buildup. Do people in the Valley still have to do that, or is auto
> glass tougher now (that was in the '50s)?

Those that park with windows completely closed often have to get new ones.

Window tinting shops do a land-office business, as do those who sell window
shades.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:q0G2c.77814$ko6.414340@attbi_s02...
> > > Come to Arizona in July...we'll teach you what hell is really like.
>
> Back in our pre-kid days, we did our "motorcycle trip of a lifetime" -- a
> ride from Wisconsin to California and back, camping all the way.
>
> Unfortunately, I changed jobs mid-way into our planning, which cut my
> vacation time from 3 weeks to 2 weeks. In order to make the trip work, we
> had to shave a week off -- which meant shipping our motorcycle to an
aunt's
> house in Phoenix, and starting from there.
>
> When we departed Phoenix, in late June, I thought I was riding on the
> surface of Venus. That place was the dirtiest, hottest, ugliest, most
> desolate place I'd ever seen.

And that was the nice part of town.

> I couldn't believe there were a million
> people living in that hell-hole. (Of course, since then I've seen Phoenix
> at its best, in winter. :-)
>
> Five days later, we were riding in snow in Yellowstone...

Day before yesterday it was 62...today it's 82. Norma right now is about 78,
but we've had only about six or seven days above normal since November.

I've been running between Denver and Phoenix since October and can't get my
sinus' cleared.

[John Galban]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:<q0G2c.77814$ko6.414340@attbi_s02>...
> When we departed Phoenix, in late June, I thought I was riding on the
> surface of Venus.

I do this all the time. It's a lot like riding into a giant blow
dryer running at max temp. The heat coming off the semi-solid asphalt
will toast your toes if you don't move them off the pegs every now and
then.

Fortunately, the higher, cooler elevations are only an hour or so
away. It's the price we pay for the great winters. I flew Sat. and
Sun. with temps in the low 80s and almost zero wind. Gotta love
that!

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Jay Honeck]

> away. It's the price we pay for the great winters. I flew Sat. and
> Sun. with temps in the low 80s and almost zero wind. Gotta love
> that!

Sounds wonderful, John. Saturday here was heavy rain, and Sunday was
sunny but incredibly windy. (We actually had a main fire door torn
completely off one of the hotel's buildings on Sunday!)

Needless to say, not much aviating happening around here -- but at least the
temperatures have been pushing 50.

That's what we call "shorts weather" for March in the Midwest!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"