Re: How old is too old to fly?

[Dan Luke]

"R. Hubbell" wrote:
> Just not sure if I'll be the best judge of
> my safe flying when I'm on the tail end
> of my years.

A good point. I've had a relative continue to drive until multiple
accidents forced him to stop. Until he had more than a couple of wrecks,
he refused or was unable to recognize that his abilities were
diminished. Fortunately, there were no serious injuries in any of these
incidents, but driving is more forgiving in this respect than flying.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)

[Teacherjh]

> Just not sure if I'll be the best judge of
> my safe flying when I'm on the tail end
> of my years.

That's what CFIs are for. Go up with one every now and then.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[G.R. Patterson III]

"R. Hubbell" wrote:
>
> I'll be happy to be old and flying solo as long as a I can
> do it safely. Just not sure if I'll be the best judge of
> my safe flying when I'm on the tail end of my years.

That's why they have BFRs.

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

[Roger Tracy]

I think once they get over 50 or so .. they shouldn't be flying.



"Teacherjh" > wrote in message
...
> > Just not sure if I'll be the best judge of
> > my safe flying when I'm on the tail end
> > of my years.
>
> That's what CFIs are for. Go up with one every now and then.
>
> Jose
>
> --
> (for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[G.R. Patterson III]

Roger Tracy wrote:
>
> I think once they get over 50 or so .. they shouldn't be flying.

I *knew* you were about 15! :-)

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

[James M. Knox]

R. Hubbell > wrote in
news:20040305083821.7b5873a9@fstop:

> With the recent talk about diving and flying and personal limitations
> I wonder how older pilots feel about their own abilities to keep fresh
> and when do you hang up the wings? Or do you just limit your flying
> and take it easier as long as the medical is good?

And interesting thread is sure to follow your question. As I am sure
you suspect, there is probably no one-size-fits-all answer (much less a
concensus on what that might be).

There is no question that (percentage-wise) older pilots have slower
reaction times than youngsters. Cognitive skills also decrease with
age. OTOH, pilots with more hours tend to have more experience (and
hopefully better judgement). For some time these things probably offset
each other (or even show an improvement).

But eventually age has an affect. The arguement over Bob Hoover
(ignoring all the other political and personal issues) was not whether
he could perform his routine (clearly he could) but whether he could
handle the situation if something went wrong. [All based on an
*experimental* congnitive skills test he had voluntarily taken some time
before, just to help out.]

So should any pilot over the age of 30 consider "hanging it up"? No...
let's face it, I was NEVER at the level of Bob Hoover or Patty Wagstaff,
even in the BEST of my days. Yet I am able to fly safely and
comfortably.

Why? Well, because the flying I do doesn't REQUIRE that skill level.
And I would say therein lies part of the answer to extending ones flying
years. Perhaps simpler (and/or slower planes). Perhaps it means less
IFR in busy airspace. And it definitely means less long days with 12 -
14 hours in the cockpit.

But with an honest self-assesment (no easy task) the average pilot can
certainly fly for many years.

-----------------------------------------------
James M. Knox
TriSoft ph 512-385-0316
1109-A Shady Lane fax 512-366-4331
Austin, Tx 78721
-----------------------------------------------

[john smith]

James M. Knox wrote:
> There is no question that (percentage-wise) older pilots have slower
> reaction times than youngsters. Cognitive skills also decrease with
> age. OTOH, pilots with more hours tend to have more experience (and
> hopefully better judgement). For some time these things probably offset
> each other (or even show an improvement).

Reminds me of an old story...
Airliner flying along, greybeard in the left seat, wet behind the ears
FO in the right. A chime begins to sound, followed by a flashing light.
The anxious FO looks over at his Captain and observes him winding his watch.
Incredulous, the FO stammers, "Captain, we have a situation to deal
with. Why are you winding your watch?"
To which the wise man replied, "I never killed anyone winding my watch
before."

[Casey Wilson]

"Roger Tracy" > wrote in message
...
> I think once they get over 50 or so .. they shouldn't be flying.
>
>
I'm 68, can still pass my flight physical, and look forward to flying
for a long time to come.
I do recall though that when I was in my teens, I faced a conundrum: I
was immortal but couldn't believe people actually lived longer than thirty
years. Then, I changed careers when I was 57 because I felt like I was too
young to retire.
FIFTY!!! Sheesh.....

[Zack Sten]

Roger Tracy wrote:

> I think once they get over 50 or so .. they shouldn't be flying.
>
>
>
Hold on there. I got my PPL six months ago at age 55. Scored 95% on the
written and passed the practical on first try at 50 hours flight time
(instruction and solo). Am I a good pilot? Only time will tell.

[Doug Carter]

On 2004-03-05, G.R. Patterson III > wrote:
>
>
> "R. Hubbell" wrote:
>>
>> I'll be happy to be old and flying solo as long as a I can do it
>> safely. Just not sure if I'll be the best judge of my safe flying
>> when I'm on the tail end of my years.
>
> That's why they have BFRs.
>
Puts a lot of pressure on the CFI's. I hope the 20 year old CFI that I
dotter into for my last BFR has the nerve to refuse to sign off.

I was waiting at an FBO one afternoon and happened to overhear a very
grey (I'm *only* 53, just a sprout) pilot chat with a much older CFII
(who hung up his spurs later that year) about his (the pilots) most
recent gear up landing then go on to arrainge for his BFR...

Still, hell of a lot better system than auto licences.

[C J Campbell]

"R. Hubbell" > wrote in message
news:20040305083821.7b5873a9@fstop...
> With the recent talk about diving and flying and personal limitations
> I wonder how older pilots feel about their own abilities to keep fresh
> and when do you hang up the wings? Or do you just limit your flying
> and take it easier as long as the medical is good?
>

I presume that this week's question on AVweb got you thinking about it.

It is far more difficult to stay active as a pilot than it is to continue to
drive as you get older. Pilots have to take get a flight review every two
years at a minimum. Those that are active commercial pilots get flight
checks every six months or every year, depending on the type of operation.
If you are flying any sort of expensive, high performance complex type you
insurance company is going to demand annual recurrent training. Many pilots
also regularly schedule flight instruction for currency, or they get regular
instrument training. You also have to get a medical exam every so often.
Although the medical exam itself does not cover much, you do have to review
all doctor visits with the medical examiner.

Your reflexes do deteriorate over time, but most older pilots compensate
with experience or by increasing their personal minimums. Your reflexes do
not have to be all that fast in an airplane anyway. Airplanes are not like
cars, where a split second may be all you have to avoid an accident.
Airplanes are more stable. Obstructions are fewer and can be seen from
further away. They are not confined to narrow lanes. You are not going to
step on think you are stepping on the brake in an airplane when you are
really stepping on the gas. I am not saying that you can afford to be
complacent, but I am saying that an experienced pilot has learned to stay
far enough ahead of the airplane that he is unlikely to face the same kind
of panic or confusion that an automobile driver can get.

Most pilots pretty well know when to quit. If you have to start lying to the
AME about your medical condition, for example, then it is time. Those that
don't know when to quit will continue to fly even if someone yanks their
certificates.

Even if a pilot does not feel qualified to act as PIC he may still keep
flying by taking an instructor or pilot friend along with him. I regularly
fly with people whose skills have deteriorated so much that they can no
longer fly alone. Sometimes they have terminal diseases, such as cancer, but
they want to fly just one more time.

I also sometimes fly with disabled people who know that they will never be
able to get a pilot certificate, but who want to see what it is like to fly
an airplane at least once in their lives. Some of them come back once in
awhile. Often people like this will bring along a family member who will
take pictures of the flight.

There are some people whose health would be put at serious risk by flight.
Others have personality disorders such as depression or who have medications
or medical equipment that would endanger the flight. Such people cannot fly
even with an instructor. There are others who are so physically handicapped
that they would have no hope of controlling an airplane even with an
instructor on board.

Even so, many people can continue flying in some form without undue danger
to themselves or others into extreme old age. Maybe they eventually need a
little help, but if they want to continue to fly, why not?

Every airport has derelict airplanes sitting on the ramp. These often belong
to people who have quit flying, but who have not yet come to terms with that
fact. I visited a very old pilot in a nursing home. He has had several
strokes and has been essentially confined to bed for two or three years. He
could still sit up and even take a few steps once in awhile, but he was
never going to fly again. But if you ask him about his old plane he
brightens up and tells you how he is going to fix it up and go flying. He
will show you his pilot certificate and talk about getting an appointment
for a BFR.

His plane sits on the ramp, the tires flat, birds nesting in the cowling. It
hasn't been started in many years. He knows that. He also knows that selling
the plane means admitting that he is never going to get better, that he is
never going to leave that little room alive. How can he face that? So he
keeps a picture of himself and his airplane and his wife (long gone) by his
bed, and knows that whatever else happens to him he still is a pilot and he
owns an airplane and someday he will get to fly it again. I would be the
last to tell him otherwise.

[C J Campbell]

"Roger Tracy" > wrote in message
...
> I think once they get over 50 or so .. they shouldn't be flying.

I don't think you have the maturity to start flying until you are 50 or
so... :-)

[C J Campbell]

"Doug Carter" > wrote in message
...
> On 2004-03-05, G.R. Patterson III > wrote:
> >
> >
> > "R. Hubbell" wrote:
> >>
> >> I'll be happy to be old and flying solo as long as a I can do it
> >> safely. Just not sure if I'll be the best judge of my safe flying
> >> when I'm on the tail end of my years.
> >
> > That's why they have BFRs.
> >
> Puts a lot of pressure on the CFI's. I hope the 20 year old CFI that I
> dotter into for my last BFR has the nerve to refuse to sign off.
>
> I was waiting at an FBO one afternoon and happened to overhear a very
> grey (I'm *only* 53, just a sprout) pilot chat with a much older CFII
> (who hung up his spurs later that year) about his (the pilots) most
> recent gear up landing then go on to arrainge for his BFR...
>
> Still, hell of a lot better system than auto licences.

Well, I am a 53 year old CFI and I don't have a problem with telling you
when to hang it up. Neither do the 20 year olds who are my colleagues.

Actually, it isn't really all that difficult. You go out and do the BFR. The
guy can't do the maneuvers to standards, so you schedule additional
training. But he doesn't seem able to improve. Sooner or later the client is
going to tell you that he is quitting. Once your BFR runs over 10 hours and
you still haven't got those steep turns and stalls to private pilot
standards, you will know. You are done flying without an instructor.

[G.R. Patterson III]

C J Campbell wrote:
>
> "Roger Tracy" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I think once they get over 50 or so .. they shouldn't be flying.
>
> I don't think you have the maturity to start flying until you are 50 or
> so... :-)

Damn! Wish I'd thought of that line.

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

[G.R. Patterson III]

C J Campbell wrote:
>
> If you have to start lying to the
> AME about your medical condition, for example, then it is time.

Or if you keep postponing seeing a doctor about some problem you have because
you're afraid the diagnosis will disqualify you.

"Honest, honey, it's just a little gas."

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

[CriticalMass]

G.R. Patterson III wrote:

>Roger Tracy wrote:
>
>
>>I think once they get over 50 or so .. they shouldn't be flying.
>>
>>
>
>I *knew* you were about 15! :-)
>


ROFL!

[John Harper]

Geez, that's quite a tear-jerker.

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>
> "R. Hubbell" > wrote in message
> news:20040305083821.7b5873a9@fstop...
> > With the recent talk about diving and flying and personal limitations
> > I wonder how older pilots feel about their own abilities to keep fresh
> > and when do you hang up the wings? Or do you just limit your flying
> > and take it easier as long as the medical is good?
> >
>
> I presume that this week's question on AVweb got you thinking about it.
>
> It is far more difficult to stay active as a pilot than it is to continue
to
> drive as you get older. Pilots have to take get a flight review every two
> years at a minimum. Those that are active commercial pilots get flight
> checks every six months or every year, depending on the type of operation.
> If you are flying any sort of expensive, high performance complex type you
> insurance company is going to demand annual recurrent training. Many
pilots
> also regularly schedule flight instruction for currency, or they get
regular
> instrument training. You also have to get a medical exam every so often.
> Although the medical exam itself does not cover much, you do have to
review
> all doctor visits with the medical examiner.
>
> Your reflexes do deteriorate over time, but most older pilots compensate
> with experience or by increasing their personal minimums. Your reflexes do
> not have to be all that fast in an airplane anyway. Airplanes are not like
> cars, where a split second may be all you have to avoid an accident.
> Airplanes are more stable. Obstructions are fewer and can be seen from
> further away. They are not confined to narrow lanes. You are not going to
> step on think you are stepping on the brake in an airplane when you are
> really stepping on the gas. I am not saying that you can afford to be
> complacent, but I am saying that an experienced pilot has learned to stay
> far enough ahead of the airplane that he is unlikely to face the same kind
> of panic or confusion that an automobile driver can get.
>
> Most pilots pretty well know when to quit. If you have to start lying to
the
> AME about your medical condition, for example, then it is time. Those that
> don't know when to quit will continue to fly even if someone yanks their
> certificates.
>
> Even if a pilot does not feel qualified to act as PIC he may still keep
> flying by taking an instructor or pilot friend along with him. I regularly
> fly with people whose skills have deteriorated so much that they can no
> longer fly alone. Sometimes they have terminal diseases, such as cancer,
but
> they want to fly just one more time.
>
> I also sometimes fly with disabled people who know that they will never be
> able to get a pilot certificate, but who want to see what it is like to
fly
> an airplane at least once in their lives. Some of them come back once in
> awhile. Often people like this will bring along a family member who will
> take pictures of the flight.
>
> There are some people whose health would be put at serious risk by flight.
> Others have personality disorders such as depression or who have
medications
> or medical equipment that would endanger the flight. Such people cannot
fly
> even with an instructor. There are others who are so physically
handicapped
> that they would have no hope of controlling an airplane even with an
> instructor on board.
>
> Even so, many people can continue flying in some form without undue danger
> to themselves or others into extreme old age. Maybe they eventually need a
> little help, but if they want to continue to fly, why not?
>
> Every airport has derelict airplanes sitting on the ramp. These often
belong
> to people who have quit flying, but who have not yet come to terms with
that
> fact. I visited a very old pilot in a nursing home. He has had several
> strokes and has been essentially confined to bed for two or three years.
He
> could still sit up and even take a few steps once in awhile, but he was
> never going to fly again. But if you ask him about his old plane he
> brightens up and tells you how he is going to fix it up and go flying. He
> will show you his pilot certificate and talk about getting an appointment
> for a BFR.
>
> His plane sits on the ramp, the tires flat, birds nesting in the cowling.
It
> hasn't been started in many years. He knows that. He also knows that
selling
> the plane means admitting that he is never going to get better, that he is
> never going to leave that little room alive. How can he face that? So he
> keeps a picture of himself and his airplane and his wife (long gone) by
his
> bed, and knows that whatever else happens to him he still is a pilot and
he
> owns an airplane and someday he will get to fly it again. I would be the
> last to tell him otherwise.
>
>

[John Harper]

I think you've got that completely wrong.

Should be 49.

:-)

John

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Roger Tracy" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I think once they get over 50 or so .. they shouldn't be flying.
>
> I don't think you have the maturity to start flying until you are 50 or
> so... :-)
>
>

[JJS]

This may sound like a wild tale, so I'm donning the flame suit. My
uncle was an active CFI into his early 90's. For a time he was the
oldest active pilot in the U.S.A. There were several write ups in the
OKC paper about him over his life. Once, as a child he helped Charles
Lindberg push his airplane out of a muddy field. Late in his life he
attended a reunion at CHK where he'd been a civilian flight instructor
during WWII. Many of his students were on the field. They couldn't
believe it when he landed his own airplane and walked up to them,
several years their senior when they themselves were in their late
70's and 80's. He sold his last airplane, (a Skylane) when he was 96.
He passed away at 99. Moral of the story... never, never, ever sell
your airplane.

p.s. Disclaimer: I'm not suggesting anyone fly this late in their
life! This is just one data point.

Joe Schneider
Cherokee 8437R


"R. Hubbell" > wrote in message
news:20040305083821.7b5873a9@fstop...
> With the recent talk about diving and flying and personal
limitations
> I wonder how older pilots feel about their own abilities to keep
fresh
> and when do you hang up the wings? Or do you just limit your flying
> and take it easier as long as the medical is good?
>
> I'm sure there's a point when passengers start saying "well
> yeah I'd love to go flying but I have to water the lawn".
>
> I'll be happy to be old and flying solo as long as a I can
> do it safely. Just not sure if I'll be the best judge of
> my safe flying when I'm on the tail end of my years.
>
>
> I started thinking about this while driving with an old friend.
> He didn't notice that he was lane-wandering, while other drivers
> did notice. Otherwise he is a safe driver, just not as precise
> I suppose.
>
> R. Hubbell
>

[john smith]

I read a blurb in this morning's paper about age and cognitive ability.
It stated that tests have shown that as a person ages, his/her ability
to perform multiple tasks simultaneously diminishes. (Time to complete
the tasks increase.)
The example given is to stand on one foot while saying the alphabet
backwards.
Sounds like a test with a prize to be awarded at this summer's
rec.aviation.piloting party at AirVenture. Practice up if you plan to
attend. There will be a weighted point system depending on the beverage,
it's alcohol content and volume consumed prior to testing.

[C J Campbell]

"John Harper" > wrote in message
news:1078539061.302433@sj-nntpcache-3...
> Geez, that's quite a tear-jerker.
>

I am sure there is a great Country/Western song in there somewhere.

[Robert Coffey]

Stop by Moore-Murrell Airport in Morristown TN and ask "Mamma Bird" this
question. She Was born Nov. 4, 1909. At 94 she has a current medical. BTW
she is an instructor if you happen to need a BFR or a lesson or something...
"JJS" <jschneider@REMOVE SOCKSpldi.net> wrote in message
...
> This may sound like a wild tale, so I'm donning the flame suit. My
> uncle was an active CFI into his early 90's. For a time he was the
> oldest active pilot in the U.S.A. There were several write ups in the
> OKC paper about him over his life. Once, as a child he helped Charles
> Lindberg push his airplane out of a muddy field. Late in his life he
> attended a reunion at CHK where he'd been a civilian flight instructor
> during WWII. Many of his students were on the field. They couldn't
> believe it when he landed his own airplane and walked up to them,
> several years their senior when they themselves were in their late
> 70's and 80's. He sold his last airplane, (a Skylane) when he was 96.
> He passed away at 99. Moral of the story... never, never, ever sell
> your airplane.
>
> p.s. Disclaimer: I'm not suggesting anyone fly this late in their
> life! This is just one data point.
>
> Joe Schneider
> Cherokee 8437R
>
>
> "R. Hubbell" > wrote in message
> news:20040305083821.7b5873a9@fstop...
> > With the recent talk about diving and flying and personal
> limitations
> > I wonder how older pilots feel about their own abilities to keep
> fresh
> > and when do you hang up the wings? Or do you just limit your flying
> > and take it easier as long as the medical is good?
> >
> > I'm sure there's a point when passengers start saying "well
> > yeah I'd love to go flying but I have to water the lawn".
> >
> > I'll be happy to be old and flying solo as long as a I can
> > do it safely. Just not sure if I'll be the best judge of
> > my safe flying when I'm on the tail end of my years.
> >
> >
> > I started thinking about this while driving with an old friend.
> > He didn't notice that he was lane-wandering, while other drivers
> > did notice. Otherwise he is a safe driver, just not as precise
> > I suppose.
> >
> > R. Hubbell
> >
>
>

[Greg Burkhart]

"R. Hubbell" > wrote in message
news:20040305195829.58d125dd@fstop...
> On Fri, 05 Mar 2004 20:49:14 GMT "Roger Tracy" >
wrote:
>
> > I think once they get over 50 or so .. they shouldn't be flying.
>
>
> Over 50 what? Over 50 BFRs? That's a reasonable cut-off!

After 50 years of flying... if you start (like I did) at 40. I still have
another 45 years to go! ;-)

[John Harper]

Or Blues maybe? How about a r.a.p Blues Lyrics
competition...

Run up this mornin
Left mag gone bad
Yeah run up this mornin
That bad old mag he go bad

Take off dis mornin
My AI don't show no sky
Yeah take off dis mornin
That old AI ain't showin no sky

Spin in dis mornin

....OK, OK, I'll stick to the day job.

John

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>
> "John Harper" > wrote in message
> news:1078539061.302433@sj-nntpcache-3...
> > Geez, that's quite a tear-jerker.
> >
>
> I am sure there is a great Country/Western song in there somewhere.
>
>

[Cub Driver]

I got my certificate at 68. I had a lot of hours, thus demonstrating
that it is more difficult to learn motor skills in your seventh
decade. So I reckon it must also be more difficult to maintain them.

I am now 72 and recently passed my biennial flight check and medical,
so I am good to go till 74 at least. I have seen nothing to indicate
that I would be a danger to myself or others. However, I almost never
take passengers. For one thing, I enjoy flying by myself; it's part of
the mystique. But mostly I don't think I should subject the innocent
to the hazard--which, because I am a pilot, I know to be greater than
they assume.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Cub Driver]

>I think once they get over 50 or so .. they shouldn't be flying.

Next time you fly United or American, ask the captain how old he is.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Cub Driver]

> Once your BFR runs over 10 hours and
>you still haven't got those steep turns and stalls to private pilot
>standards, you will know.

Yes, that would certainly work for me.

Indeed, if it ran into the SECOND hour, I would start to worry.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[john smith]

Cub Driver wrote:
> I got my certificate at 68. I had a lot of hours, thus demonstrating
> that it is more difficult to learn motor skills in your seventh
> decade. So I reckon it must also be more difficult to maintain them.
> I am now 72 and recently passed my biennial flight check and medical,
> so I am good to go till 74 at least. I have seen nothing to indicate
> that I would be a danger to myself or others. However, I almost never
> take passengers. For one thing, I enjoy flying by myself; it's part of
> the mystique. But mostly I don't think I should subject the innocent
> to the hazard--which, because I am a pilot, I know to be greater than
> they assume.

Dan, I thought the FAA revised the timeline for medical certificates to
the following:

16-39 three years
40-70 two years
70-75 one year
75-?? six months

[G.R. Patterson III]

C J Campbell wrote:
>
> I am sure there is a great Country/Western song in there somewhere.

Naw. You didn't have one word in there about mother, or rain, or pickup trucks,
or getting drunk, or prison, or railroad trains. :-)

"Oh I was drunk the day my Ma got out of prison ......"

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

[Dennis O'Connor]

Fella used to bring a pretty looking C-195 into our field for the annuals...
Last time I saw him do that he was 81 or 82, as I remember... Wonder if
I'll even be around then, much less be able to handle a ship like that in a
crosswind......
denny - 6 decades of banging around airports...

"Cub Driver" > wrote in

[G.R. Patterson III]

Dennis O'Connor wrote:
>
> I'll even be around then, much less be able to handle a ship like that in a
> crosswind......

Handling a 195 in a crosswind is a piece of cake compared to taxiing it on the
ground. You can't see a thing around that big Jacobs. Your ground track looks
like a spastic snake made it.

George Patterson
A diplomat is a person who can tell you to go to hell in such a way that
you look forward to the trip.

[John Gaquin]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
> >
> > I'll be happy to be old and flying solo as long as a I can
> > do it safely. Just not sure if I'll be the best judge of
> > my safe flying when I'm on the tail end of my years.

There was a guy I flew with in the 727 some years ago, a close friend at the
time. His Dad had retired from United some years before that, and was still
flying a corporate craft -- KA-200, iirc -- at the age of 81 when he finally
retired. That was in the early nineties.

JG

[Judah]

There's two major differences...

1. A little bit of lane swerving VFR at 150kts and 6500' is probably not
going to hurt anyone. Even on a 100' wide runway in a single-engine
plane, there won't be anyone in the lane next to you if you swerve a
bit...

The same may not hold true of at 50MPH on a 2-lane "highway".

2. Pilots can't go more than a couple of years without having a doctor
and an instructor verify their continued ability to fly.

The same does not hold true of automobile licenses.




R. Hubbell > wrote in
news:20040305083821.7b5873a9@fstop:

> With the recent talk about diving and flying and personal limitations
> I wonder how older pilots feel about their own abilities to keep fresh
> and when do you hang up the wings? Or do you just limit your flying
> and take it easier as long as the medical is good?
>
> I'm sure there's a point when passengers start saying "well
> yeah I'd love to go flying but I have to water the lawn".
>
> I'll be happy to be old and flying solo as long as a I can
> do it safely. Just not sure if I'll be the best judge of
> my safe flying when I'm on the tail end of my years.
>
>
> I started thinking about this while driving with an old friend.
> He didn't notice that he was lane-wandering, while other drivers
> did notice. Otherwise he is a safe driver, just not as precise
> I suppose.
>
> R. Hubbell
>

[Peter Hovorka]

Hi,

my CFI was 72 years when I trained for the PPL. This man was _great_. He
was calm, experienced and he knew about the risks involved.

I'm still dreaming about flying as precise and
always-two-steps-ahead-of-the-plane as he did.

Regards,
Peter

(who thinks it's totally absurd about measuring age by years. Give a
twenty year old person a troublesome weak, just 5 hours sleep a night,
dehydration the days before and a bottle of diet coke warmed by sunlight
before the flight - and you'll see _real_ bad performance...)

[Tom Sixkiller]

R. Hubbell > wrote in
news:20040305083821.7b5873a9@fstop:

> With the recent talk about diving and flying and personal limitations
> I wonder how older pilots feel about their own abilities to keep fresh
> and when do you hang up the wings? Or do you just limit your flying
> and take it easier as long as the medical is good?
>
> I'm sure there's a point when passengers start saying "well
> yeah I'd love to go flying but I have to water the lawn".
>
> I'll be happy to be old and flying solo as long as a I can
> do it safely. Just not sure if I'll be the best judge of
> my safe flying when I'm on the tail end of my years.

Remember the 80 year-old Citation pilot who ditched his plane in the lake in
Washington last year? Man...80 years old and doing SP in a Citation and
performing a ditching that would do someone half his age proud.

>
> I started thinking about this while driving with an old friend.
> He didn't notice that he was lane-wandering, while other drivers
> did notice.

Those who noticed were the ones whose lane he intruded into.

> Otherwise he is a safe driver, just not as precise
> I suppose.

I'd say if he can't keep it in his own lane, he's NOT a safe driver.

[Cub Driver]

>Dan, I thought the FAA revised the timeline for medical certificates to
>the following:
>
>16-39 three years
>40-70 two years
>70-75 one year
>75-?? six months

I just Googled this subject and got this:

Class 3 medical certificates are for private pilot duties only. They
have the least restrictive medical requirements and the certificates
are generally good for 3 years for applicants under age 40 and 2 years
for those 40 and over.

And the back of my cert still says "24 or 36 months".




all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Cub Driver]

Ralph Charles, who died in 2002, was an active pilot at the age of
103.

http://www.leftseat.com/Programs/pilotage.htm



all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Pokey]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message >...
> "R. Hubbell" > wrote in message
> > > <snip>> >

> <snip>
> > Even if a pilot does not feel qualified to act as PIC he may still keep
> flying by taking an instructor or pilot friend along with him. I regularly
> fly with people whose skills have deteriorated so much that they can no
> longer fly alone. Sometimes they have terminal diseases, such as cancer, but
> they want to fly just one more time.
>
> I also sometimes fly with disabled people who know that they will never be
> able to get a pilot certificate, but who want to see what it is like to fly
> an airplane at least once in their lives. Some of them come back once in
> awhile. Often people like this will bring along a family member who will
> take pictures of the flight.
>
I'm in my late fifties, and have never taken formal flight
instruction. I have flown three airplanes, and would like to become a
pilot. I have noticed in the last 5 years or so that it takes me a
LONG time to work through a problem that arises unexpectedly. That
discovery is one reason I chose not to seek a PPL. Lately, however, I
have considered taking lessons without the expectation that I could
ever be safe flying solo. The money I would spend on lessons would be
purely for the fun of being in the air at the controls for however
many hours I could afford to pay an instructor to babysit me.
Pokey

[Dennis O'Connor]

Well, you won't be any better if you wait another five years, now will
you... What do you expect from us? If you want to take flying lessons,
just do it...

"Pokey" > wrote in message Lately, however, I
> have considered taking lessons without the expectation that I could
> ever be safe flying solo.

[John Gaquin]

"John Gaquin" > wrote in message
>
> There was a guy I flew with in the 727 some years ago, a close friend at
the
> time. His Dad had retired from United some years before that, and was
still
> flying a corporate craft -- KA-200, iirc -- at the age of 81 when he
finally
> retired. That was in the early nineties.

Just as an aside/addendum, I recall my friend telling me that when his Dad
closed his logbook, he had well over 41,000 hours documented, and had not
even logged a few years of barnstorming in the thirties.

JG

[Paul Sengupta]

BFR! B*gg*r!

We have to have those in the UK now (damn JARs!) and
mine's due this month IIRC. Bah. Glad you reminded me,
thanks.

Paul

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
> That's why they have BFRs.

[WinstonCup]

Subject: Re: How old is too old to fly?
From: Cub Driver

I'm a 42 year old PPL ASEL IA working on my tailwheel endorsement from my 86
year old CFI. He's still spry enough to crawl in and out of his immaculate Cub
and we still use a Gosport to communicate...now that's flying.

Stick & Rudder flying at it's best!

K C
PP ASEL IA...and now a 182 owner.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"R. Hubbell" > wrote in message
news:20040308185123.5bd6cef6@fstop...
On Sat, 6 Mar 2004 19:05:53 -0700 "Tom Sixkiller" > wrote:

> R. Hubbell > wrote in
> news:20040305083821.7b5873a9@fstop:
>
> > With the recent talk about diving and flying and personal limitations
> > I wonder how older pilots feel about their own abilities to keep fresh
> > and when do you hang up the wings? Or do you just limit your flying
> > and take it easier as long as the medical is good?
> >
> > I'm sure there's a point when passengers start saying "well
> > yeah I'd love to go flying but I have to water the lawn".
> >
> > I'll be happy to be old and flying solo as long as a I can
> > do it safely. Just not sure if I'll be the best judge of
> > my safe flying when I'm on the tail end of my years.
>
> Remember the 80 year-old Citation pilot who ditched his plane in the lake
in
> Washington last year? Man...80 years old and doing SP in a Citation and
> performing a ditching that would do someone half his age proud.


|No don't recall.
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20030724X01192&key=1


>
> >
> > I started thinking about this while driving with an old friend.
> > He didn't notice that he was lane-wandering, while other drivers
> > did notice.
>
> Those who noticed were the ones whose lane he intruded into.

|Wasn't that obvious? :)

Not necessarily.

|In his defense the lanes were narrow and it was a two-lane road
|with 8-9 ft. wide lanes. No shoulder (a curb, and parkway with trees)

That pretty much a standard lane width.


>
> > Otherwise he is a safe driver, just not as precise
> > I suppose.
>
> I'd say if he can't keep it in his own lane, he's NOT a safe driver.

|He still has his license and he's essentially a safe driver.

That's two points that DO NOT support your conclusion.

First; not having one's license revoked by DMV is not much of a factor. A
few years ago there was a 70's something woman in Florida that had killed
something like four people in three separate accidents before th state
finally pulled her license. Elderly people are coddled when it come to
drivers licenses.


| The DMV and the insurance company haven't refuted that. He drives
| slower (not less than speed limit) and takes it easier.

That helps but he's still a major hazard.

[JerryK]

Danm. I am still too young to fly!!!

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Roger Tracy" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I think once they get over 50 or so .. they shouldn't be flying.
>
> I don't think you have the maturity to start flying until you are 50 or
> so... :-)
>
>