Motorgliders on OLC?

[WAVEGURU]

I would like to see how many points the motorglider guys would end up scoring if their motor was rendered unavailable after launch. A friend of mine couldn't get his motor started one day, so he took an aero tow, and his flying was much different that day. It's just not the same when you know you can crank up that iron thermal an motor home any time you want. It's definitely not a level playing field.

Boggs

[4Z]

On Apr 29, 8:30*am, Waveguru > wrote:
> I would like to see how many points the motorglider guys would end up scoring if their motor was rendered unavailable after launch. * A friend of mine couldn't get his motor started one day, so he took an aero tow, and his flying was much different that day. *It's just not the same when you know you can crank up that iron thermal an motor home any time you want. It's definitely not a level playing field.
>
> Boggs

Boy, there's a troll if I ever heard one. I disagree. That's as much
of a nibble as you're going to get out of me. You should know better
Gary.

[Tony[_5_]]

On Monday, April 29, 2013 10:13:48 AM UTC-5, 4Z wrote:
> On Apr 29, 8:30*am, Waveguru > wrote: > I would like to see how many points the motorglider guys would end up scoring if their motor was rendered unavailable after launch. * A friend of mine couldn't get his motor started one day, so he took an aero tow, and his flying was much different that day. *It's just not the same when you know you can crank up that iron thermal an motor home any time you want. It's definitely not a level playing field. > > Boggs Boy, there's a troll if I ever heard one. I disagree. That's as much of a nibble as you're going to get out of me.. You should know better Gary.

probably no more of an advantage than a pilot who has a crew ready and willing to come get them if they land out.

perhaps OLC needs a "crewless" category :)

[[email protected]]

On Monday, April 29, 2013 11:25:14 AM UTC-4, Tony wrote:
> On Monday, April 29, 2013 10:13:48 AM UTC-5, 4Z wrote:
>
> > On Apr 29, 8:30*am, Waveguru > wrote: > I would like to see how many points the motorglider guys would end up scoring if their motor was rendered unavailable after launch. * A friend of mine couldn't get his motor started one day, so he took an aero tow, and his flying was much different that day. *It's just not the same when you know you can crank up that iron thermal an motor home any time you want. It's definitely not a level playing field. > > Boggs Boy, there's a troll if I ever heard one. I disagree. That's as much of a nibble as you're going to get out of me. You should know better Gary.
>
>
>
> probably no more of an advantage than a pilot who has a crew ready and willing to come get them if they land out.
>
>
>
> perhaps OLC needs a "crewless" category :)

I owned a PIK20E for a few years. I took huge risks that I wouldn't have without the motor (as far as landing out, and some stupid ones also). I learned more about XC soaring than I did in 20 years. You have to commit to a airport or a good field at a higher altitude than without a motor, and the glider climbed slow in weak conditions. I definitely fly more conservative (as far as risking landing out) without a motor. In competition a motor is probably not as much of an advantage because of the higher altitude commitment for landing out. But, for recreational flying it sure was nice.

Ed

[WAVEGURU]

Yes, I was hoping to start a discussion. If that's trolling, then I guess I'm guilty as charged. I do think it is not even close to the same thing psychologically. There is a BIG difference between cranking up the motor, as opposed to landing In a field, and having a crew come and get you. Landing out is a much bigger deterrent, and keeps us from stretching as far as we might if we had a motor. I saw it clearly in my buddy that couldn't get his motor to start, and had to take a tow. And how many of us fly with a "crew" waiting to come and get us? I think I would look forward to landing out if I had Ramy's beautiful wife to come and get me!...

Flame retardant ready...

Boggs

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

On Monday, April 29, 2013 9:30:09 AM UTC-5, Waveguru wrote:
> I would like to see how many points the motorglider guys would end up scoring if their motor was rendered unavailable after launch. Blah blah blah. It's definitely not a level playing field. Boggs

You are right, Gary. The playing field isn't level. And my flights in mid-west thermals can't compete on a level playing field with Ely thermals, Minden Wave Days, Parowan thermal days, or east coast ridge days, either.

Now, when I go to Moriarty...

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

On 4/29/2013 12:28 PM, Steve Leonard wrote:
> On Monday, April 29, 2013 9:30:09 AM UTC-5, Waveguru wrote:
>> I would like to see how many points the motorglider guys would end
>> up scoring if their motor was rendered unavailable after launch.
>> Blah blah blah. It's definitely not a level playing field. Boggs
>
> You are right, Gary. The playing field isn't level. And my flights
> in mid-west thermals can't compete on a level playing field with Ely
> thermals, Minden Wave Days, Parowan thermal days, or east coast ridge
> days, either

It's true that having an easy retrieve, whether it's by an eager crew
person or a motor, will make a pilot bolder. But the performance of the
glider will also change how you fly. For example, would a pilot's flying
change if he was plucked from a Blanik and dropped into an ASG 29? Or
from Nimbus 4 into a 1-26? Oh, you betcha!

And how about launch methods? Would what the pilot could achieve change
if he had aero-tows available instead of a 1000' car launch? Suppose the
pilot is retired and can fly any day, lives 2 miles from the airport
instead 150 miles, and so on?

Equipment does make a difference, as do life circumstances and location.
Even though it's the OLC is a handicapped contest, there is no way for
the handicap system to provide a level playing field for all variations
in circumstances.

So, for people that think the retrieve problem is holding them back, get
a glider with a motor. No cash? Follow Henry Combs example, and burnish
your personality to a warm glow that convinces people to crew for you
every weekend, week after week, year after year, which is what allowed
Henry to amass 200+ 500K straight out distance flights!

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

[[email protected]]

On Monday, April 29, 2013 4:02:50 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 4/29/2013 12:28 PM, Steve Leonard wrote:
>
> > On Monday, April 29, 2013 9:30:09 AM UTC-5, Waveguru wrote:
>
> >> I would like to see how many points the motorglider guys would end
>
> >> up scoring if their motor was rendered unavailable after launch.
>
> >> Blah blah blah. It's definitely not a level playing field. Boggs
>
> >
>
> > You are right, Gary. The playing field isn't level. And my flights
>
> > in mid-west thermals can't compete on a level playing field with Ely
>
> > thermals, Minden Wave Days, Parowan thermal days, or east coast ridge
>
> > days, either
>
>
>
> It's true that having an easy retrieve, whether it's by an eager crew
>
> person or a motor, will make a pilot bolder. But the performance of the
>
> glider will also change how you fly. For example, would a pilot's flying
>
> change if he was plucked from a Blanik and dropped into an ASG 29? Or
>
> from Nimbus 4 into a 1-26? Oh, you betcha!
>
>
>
> And how about launch methods? Would what the pilot could achieve change
>
> if he had aero-tows available instead of a 1000' car launch? Suppose the
>
> pilot is retired and can fly any day, lives 2 miles from the airport
>
> instead 150 miles, and so on?
>
>
>
> Equipment does make a difference, as do life circumstances and location.
>
> Even though it's the OLC is a handicapped contest, there is no way for
>
> the handicap system to provide a level playing field for all variations
>
> in circumstances.
>
>
>
> So, for people that think the retrieve problem is holding them back, get
>
> a glider with a motor. No cash? Follow Henry Combs example, and burnish
>
> your personality to a warm glow that convinces people to crew for you
>
> every weekend, week after week, year after year, which is what allowed
>
> Henry to amass 200+ 500K straight out distance flights!
>
>
>
> --
>
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
>
> email me)

There's a very lengthy discussion going on the Segelflug.de/forum (in German) regarding the question if motorglider and sustainer pilots should get an automatic handicap and how much of it. Since they have at least a factor of 10 or maybe 20 a multiple of these gliders vs. the US, the discussion is surely justified. They are pointing to the adventurous pilot who motors from the Bavarian flatlands into the Alps above the inversion to get an early start. Any honest motorglider pilot will tell you that they can take more risks in trying that really long task, flying till sunset but with the assurance of the aluminum thermal behind them. Especially in the OLC, there is doubtless a severe bonus for having an engine.
Herb

[[email protected][_1_]]

Gary is totally correct, though I believe the "issue" goes far deeper into the realm of pilot safety than being able to "motor home" at the end of the day.

I personally know of several pilots who have, and continue to place themselves in "low probability", unsafe positions (i.e., locations where the "outlanding" would be a crash), banking on the iron thermal to save them should their gamble fail to pay off. At least one Hilton Cup was earned this way. The advantage especially comes into play in the remotest locations on earth like the Namib Desert, the Andes and yes, perhaps the Great Basin where even a no-damage outlanding can be essentially irretrievable. I recall that Fossett et al scavenged some parts from an abandoned AS-H25 in the Andes. Even in relatively benign locations like the Sierra Nevada/White Mt's. corridor, a landing only a 200 km from home but east of the Whites is likely to be an all-night retrieve.

Anyone who believes that there is no "courage" in an engine is deluding themselves, even if the reliability of the engine is questionable. Rock climbers are similarly fortified by placing points of protection that they know will never hold a fall. Even with the sketchy engine systems of 1st and 2nd generation powerplants, pilots were/are commonly placing themselves at greater risk than they would have without the backstop of a motor.

Every agressive X-C motorglider pilot I know well enough to share the "dirty laundry" with has a "saved by the motor" story. Like: "the motor finally caught at 10 ft agl on final to an unlandable field" or "I thermaled away from less than 500 ft over unlandable terrain in the dark".

It is not a level playing field and will get even less so as engine reliability and aircraft performance at high wing loadings increases. The FAI recognizes this via its records classifications and I see no reason why OLC should not do the same. Finally, I think OLC has done a great service to safety by requiring pilots to fly within FAR's and documenting suboptimal pilot behavbiors for all to see and learn from.

[Michael Mitton]

On Monday, April 29, 2013 2:02:50 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On 4/29/2013 12:28 PM, Steve Leonard wrote:
>
> > On Monday, April 29, 2013 9:30:09 AM UTC-5, Waveguru wrote:
>
> >> I would like to see how many points the motorglider guys would end
>
> >> up scoring if their motor was rendered unavailable after launch.
>
> >> Blah blah blah. It's definitely not a level playing field. Boggs
>
> >
>
> > You are right, Gary. The playing field isn't level. And my flights
>
> > in mid-west thermals can't compete on a level playing field with Ely
>
> > thermals, Minden Wave Days, Parowan thermal days, or east coast ridge
>
> > days, either
>
>
>
> It's true that having an easy retrieve, whether it's by an eager crew
>
> person or a motor, will make a pilot bolder. But the performance of the
>
> glider will also change how you fly. For example, would a pilot's flying
>
> change if he was plucked from a Blanik and dropped into an ASG 29? Or
>
> from Nimbus 4 into a 1-26? Oh, you betcha!
>
>
>
> And how about launch methods? Would what the pilot could achieve change
>
> if he had aero-tows available instead of a 1000' car launch? Suppose the
>
> pilot is retired and can fly any day, lives 2 miles from the airport
>
> instead 150 miles, and so on?
>
>
>
> Equipment does make a difference, as do life circumstances and location.
>
> Even though it's the OLC is a handicapped contest, there is no way for
>
> the handicap system to provide a level playing field for all variations
>
> in circumstances.
>
>
>
> So, for people that think the retrieve problem is holding them back, get
>
> a glider with a motor. No cash? Follow Henry Combs example, and burnish
>
> your personality to a warm glow that convinces people to crew for you
>
> every weekend, week after week, year after year, which is what allowed
>
> Henry to amass 200+ 500K straight out distance flights!
>
>
>
> --
>
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
>
> email me)



I predict this thread will set a record number of posts and views. I’ll confess upfront that I consider the term “motor-glider” an oxymoron, so you know my bias. That said, I believe there are several competitive advantages to having a motor for big OLC flights in the Great Basin. First, pilots often arrive back at base an hour or more before sunset, close their triangle, then try and decide how hard to push in the remaining lift. If you miscalculate, there is a world of difference between flipping a switch and motoring home and a ground retrieve way out in the desert even if you are lucky enough to have that magical “eager crew”. Second, and perhaps even worse, the best days often come back-to-back so an all-night retrieve can mean that the pure glider will miss some of the best conditions and the fat score that comes with it. I can personally attest to the extreme disappointment that come with that.

Clearly OLC cannot completely level the playing field in all respects ( geography, the life circumstances of the pilot, launch methods, etc.) But they could very easily handicap the motorglider vs. the pure glider for the distance portion of the OLC (not league, speed, etc.). The only real issue is by how much.

As long as we’re opening a can of worms, here’s another—glider flights utilizing class A airspace vs. glider flights below 18K.

Michael

[Jim[_18_]]

It makes sense that the motor is an advantage as I usually don't have a crew but I haven't flown my motor glider as far as I've flown my pure sailplanes. Hope to change that this year. I really like self launching from places where there's no towplane or not having to wait in a long line for a tow.

I'm not too worried about a motor glider handicap, if it happens. I like flying thermals and can't compete with the wave guys anyway.

Jim Dingess

[rk]

I think the idea that motorgliderpilots glide to unlandable places trusting their engines to gain OLC points is pretty ridiculous. Darwin takes care of these pilots very quickly.

However, having engine is a huge advantage in OLC flying because you can press on at sunday evening for another 100km knowing that you will be home that same evening. There is no denying of this.

How to make OLC playing field level? Separate classes for gliders and motorplanes, maybe? Or at least a special price for best non-motorglider pilot/flight. Or maybe they should start with getting rid of those DaeC handicaps for starters, as they are a big joke. Same handicap for DuoDiscus and GF304, what are they smoking in Germany and OLC?

If you really wan't to succeed in OLC, fly short wing Turbo-LS8.

[WAVEGURU]

The motorglider that wouldn't start was a Silent, but it turned out to be the fault of the pilot, not the ship.

Boggs

[WAVEGURU]

The motorglider that wouldn't start was a Silent, but it turned out to be the fault of the pilot, not the ship.

Boggs

[Peter von Tresckow]

Waveguru > wrote:
> The motorglider that wouldn't start was a Silent, but it turned out to be
> the fault of the pilot, not the ship.
>
> Boggs

Hey while we are whining about olc can we get a location handicap? A 500km
flight in the flatlands of Wi is way more difficult than surfing the ridge
out east it the Sierra wave in the west.

Just sayin

Pete

[WAVEGURU]

I guess that's why there are different regions?

Boggs

[2G]

On Monday, April 29, 2013 7:30:09 AM UTC-7, Waveguru wrote:
> I would like to see how many points the motorglider guys would end up scoring if their motor was rendered unavailable after launch. A friend of mine couldn't get his motor started one day, so he took an aero tow, and his flying was much different that day. It's just not the same when you know you can crank up that iron thermal an motor home any time you want. It's definitely not a level playing field.
>
>
>
> Boggs

That's an OLD wive's tale that keeps coming back like a freeloading relative. Give it a rest, already. Anyone who has ACTUALLY flown MGs KNOWs how problematic starting that engine can be. I flew mine one year after I had the engine removed for repairs and was surprised how refreshing it was about the simplified decision making was.

Now, let's start a new thread about the accidents that we have had and the bad decision making that led up to it.

Tom

[Uncle Fuzzy[_2_]]

On Tuesday, May 21, 2013 6:07:48 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Monday, April 29, 2013 7:30:09 AM UTC-7, Waveguru wrote:
>
> > I would like to see how many points the motorglider guys would end up scoring if their motor was rendered unavailable after launch. A friend of mine couldn't get his motor started one day, so he took an aero tow, and his flying was much different that day. It's just not the same when you know you can crank up that iron thermal an motor home any time you want. It's definitely not a level playing field.
>
> >
>
> >
I haven't had the opportunity to fly a motor-glider, but I know for SURE that I'd range more widely if I THOUGHT that after landing at a far away airfield, I could launch the next day and fly home, rather than KNOWING I have to put someone out by driving 18 hours to come get me... and yes, I have had to ask for a nearly 20 hour retrieve.
>
> >
>
> > Boggs
>
>
>
> That's an OLD wive's tale that keeps coming back like a freeloading relative. Give it a rest, already. Anyone who has ACTUALLY flown MGs KNOWs how problematic starting that engine can be. I flew mine one year after I had the engine removed for repairs and was surprised how refreshing it was about the simplified decision making was.
>
>
>
> Now, let's start a new thread about the accidents that we have had and the bad decision making that led up to it.
>
>
>
> Tom

[Ramy]

On Tuesday, May 21, 2013 8:43:20 PM UTC-7, Uncle Fuzzy wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 21, 2013 6:07:48 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
>
> > On Monday, April 29, 2013 7:30:09 AM UTC-7, Waveguru wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > I would like to see how many points the motorglider guys would end up scoring if their motor was rendered unavailable after launch. A friend of mine couldn't get his motor started one day, so he took an aero tow, and his flying was much different that day. It's just not the same when you know you can crank up that iron thermal an motor home any time you want. It's definitely not a level playing field.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> I haven't had the opportunity to fly a motor-glider, but I know for SURE that I'd range more widely if I THOUGHT that after landing at a far away airfield, I could launch the next day and fly home, rather than KNOWING I have to put someone out by driving 18 hours to come get me... and yes, I have had to ask for a nearly 20 hour retrieve.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Boggs
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > That's an OLD wive's tale that keeps coming back like a freeloading relative. Give it a rest, already. Anyone who has ACTUALLY flown MGs KNOWs how problematic starting that engine can be. I flew mine one year after I had the engine removed for repairs and was surprised how refreshing it was about the simplified decision making was.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Now, let's start a new thread about the accidents that we have had and the bad decision making that led up to it.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Tom

I second that. Without voicing a direct opinion on the subject, and as someone who pushes the envelope too much too often, and yet have someone to retrieve him in case all else failed, I can say with no doubt that I would have pushed the envelope much more if I had a motorglider, even if it was only 80% reliable. The math is simple, if you know you have only 50% chance to make it back without an engine, you know you have significantly higher chance (higher than 80% in this example, someone can do the math) to make it back with a motorglider. A big difference. Having said that, most (except few notable exceptions) motorglider pilots I know are flying way more conservative than I do. I can never figure this out...

Ramy

[2G]

On Tuesday, May 21, 2013 8:43:20 PM UTC-7, Uncle Fuzzy wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 21, 2013 6:07:48 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
>
> > On Monday, April 29, 2013 7:30:09 AM UTC-7, Waveguru wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > I would like to see how many points the motorglider guys would end up scoring if their motor was rendered unavailable after launch. A friend of mine couldn't get his motor started one day, so he took an aero tow, and his flying was much different that day. It's just not the same when you know you can crank up that iron thermal an motor home any time you want. It's definitely not a level playing field.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> I haven't had the opportunity to fly a motor-glider, but I know for SURE that I'd range more widely if I THOUGHT that after landing at a far away airfield, I could launch the next day and fly home, rather than KNOWING I have to put someone out by driving 18 hours to come get me... and yes, I have had to ask for a nearly 20 hour retrieve.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Boggs
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > That's an OLD wive's tale that keeps coming back like a freeloading relative. Give it a rest, already. Anyone who has ACTUALLY flown MGs KNOWs how problematic starting that engine can be. I flew mine one year after I had the engine removed for repairs and was surprised how refreshing it was about the simplified decision making was.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Now, let's start a new thread about the accidents that we have had and the bad decision making that led up to it.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Tom

Well, you CERTAINLY don't fly in the high desert of the West where the valleys START at 5Kft and a 10kft power ceiling DOES NOT get you very far! Remember, you will have to find a safe place to restart at 1,500 AGL while attempting a sawtooth retrieve. My rule of thumb is the motor will get you to an airport most of the time, but you WON'T be able to self-retrieve. You might be able to launch the day and do soaring self-retrieve; sort of like landing at an airfield with an available tow.

What you guys are really referring to are the touring motorgliders where this is practical, but the soaring performance is pretty poor.

Tom

[[email protected]]

Ramy, you may find the motorglider isn't as much of a saving mechanism as you might think. You fly such long distances, that you are actually beyond the range of the motorglider getting you back. True it can be used to help you launch the next day assuming you hit an airport that can support the launch. You would be surprised how many don't work so you have to plan well..

Darren

[[email protected]]

I would never make any derogatory remarks about motorgliders… or motorglider pilots. Someday I may be so old that I no longer enjoy the intense thrill, excitement and adventure of flying a pure sailplane cross-country.
Mike Koerner

[Ramy]

On Tuesday, May 21, 2013 10:29:39 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> I would never make any derogatory remarks about motorgliders… or motorglider pilots. Someday I may be so old that I no longer enjoy the intense thrill, excitement and adventure of flying a pure sailplane cross-country.
>
> Mike Koerner

Same here. No disrespect whatsoever. On the contrary, some of my best buddies are flying motorgliders and are also better pilots, as they fly further AND rarely use the engine to make it back. you know who you are :)I am hoping someday to switch to a motorglider myself. But when I'll do, I will push the envelope further than I do now, thanks to he extra security. And yes, I certainly do fly in the high desert of the west. And yet, I can only recall one time in the last 10 years that a motorglider buddy of mine needed a ground retrieve (which I provided btw), while I cant count how many times myself or my non motorglider buddies needed ground retrieve. So I don't buy this "motorglider does not get you very far" claim. Not even in the high desert. True, it wouldn't get me the whole way back from where I go sometimes, but one rarely lands out so far from home anyway, just doesn't always make it all the way home. And none of my cross country buddies start their engine at 1500 feet AGL, unless it is obviously hopeless. So there is obvious pros and cons. You give up some of the intense thrill and adventure of flying pure sailplane cross country, for the convenient and less stress of flying even further or to places you otherwise wouldn't reach with a pure sailplane. And last, the main reason why my motorglider buddies still need to do ground retrieves every now and then, is to retrieve me...

Ramy

[jfitch]

On Wednesday, May 22, 2013 12:14:27 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 21, 2013 10:29:39 PM UTC-7, wrote:
>
> > I would never make any derogatory remarks about motorgliders… or motorglider pilots. Someday I may be so old that I no longer enjoy the intense thrill, excitement and adventure of flying a pure sailplane cross-country.
>
> >
>
> > Mike Koerner
>
>
>
> Same here. No disrespect whatsoever. On the contrary, some of my best buddies are flying motorgliders and are also better pilots, as they fly further AND rarely use the engine to make it back. you know who you are :)I am hoping someday to switch to a motorglider myself. But when I'll do, I will push the envelope further than I do now, thanks to he extra security. And yes, I certainly do fly in the high desert of the west. And yet, I can only recall one time in the last 10 years that a motorglider buddy of mine needed a ground retrieve (which I provided btw), while I cant count how many times myself or my non motorglider buddies needed ground retrieve. So I don't buy this "motorglider does not get you very far" claim. Not even in the high desert. True, it wouldn't get me the whole way back from where I go sometimes, but one rarely lands out so far from home anyway, just doesn't always make it all the way home. And none of my cross country buddies start their engine at 1500 feet AGL, unless it is obviously hopeless. So there is obvious pros and cons. You give up some of the intense thrill and adventure of flying pure sailplane cross country, for the convenient and less stress of flying even further or to places you otherwise wouldn't reach with a pure sailplane. And last, the main reason why my motorglider buddies still need to do ground retrieves every now and then, is to retrieve me...
>
>
>
> Ramy

Most of the places you land in the western high desert are air retrievable. A lifetime of air retrieves costs less than the motor in a motorglider. (Just the interest earned on the money for an engine pays for 5 or more longish air retrieves each season). An air retrieve is nearly as easy and convenient as a motorglider retrieve. Looked at in this economic light, there is little convenience advantage in a motorglider for OLC flying in the high western desert. Those who use the motorglider to fly too low over unlandable terrain are simply "accidents" waiting to happen. A pure glider can do this too, the motorglider will only slightly delay the inevitable.

And I'll admit to being one of the conservative motorglider pilots that flies sometimes with Ramy. I start my engine at 2000 ft over a nice runway. In the high western desert near the end of the day, when you are 2000 ft over a nice runway, you are done for the day 9 times out of 10 anyway.

[bumper[_4_]]

On Tuesday, May 21, 2013 10:29:39 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> I would never make any derogatory remarks about motorgliders… or motorglider pilots. Someday I may be so old that I no longer enjoy the intense thrill, excitement and adventure of flying a pure sailplane cross-country.
>
> Mike Koerner


"pure sailplane"??

Are you implying a self-launch glider is somehow impure? Curious that . . . considering our brethren the soaring birds could hardly survive if lacking the ability to self-launch. And no, I'm not suggesting that "pure gliders" are really cripples. Well, okay, maybe I am :c)

bumper

[[email protected]]

Personally, I feel the ultimate, most unteathered feeling, is pure glider with a crew with good communications/spot etc. Nothing else compares to that.

[jfitch]

On Wednesday, May 22, 2013 4:26:08 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> Personally, I feel the ultimate, most unteathered feeling, is pure glider with a crew with good communications/spot etc. Nothing else compares to that.

A crew is a far stronger and more unwieldy tether than an aux motor in the back. More trouble, more maintenance, and often more costly.

[kirk.stant]

On Thursday, May 23, 2013 5:46:36 AM UTC+2, jfitch wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 22, 2013 4:26:08 PM UTC-7, wrote:
>
> > Personally, I feel the ultimate, most unteathered feeling, is pure glider with a crew with good communications/spot etc. Nothing else compares to that.
>
>
>
> A crew is a far stronger and more unwieldy tether than an aux motor in the back. More trouble, more maintenance, and often more costly.

Yeah, but that aux motor won't cook you dinner or keep you warm at night...

Kirk
66

[jfitch]

On Thursday, May 23, 2013 12:32:06 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
> On Thursday, May 23, 2013 5:46:36 AM UTC+2, jfitch wrote:
>
> > On Wednesday, May 22, 2013 4:26:08 PM UTC-7, wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > Personally, I feel the ultimate, most unteathered feeling, is pure glider with a crew with good communications/spot etc. Nothing else compares to that.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > A crew is a far stronger and more unwieldy tether than an aux motor in the back. More trouble, more maintenance, and often more costly.
>
>
>
> Yeah, but that aux motor won't cook you dinner or keep you warm at night...
>
>
>
> Kirk
>
> 66

Nor take you for 50% of your net worth....

[bumper[_4_]]

On Thursday, May 23, 2013 12:32:06 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:


>
> Yeah, but that aux motor won't cook you dinner or keep you warm at night...
>
>
>
> Kirk
>
> 66

In thankfully rare occasions, it has been known to cook your goose . . .

bumper

[2G]

On Wednesday, May 22, 2013 12:14:27 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 21, 2013 10:29:39 PM UTC-7, wrote:
>
> > I would never make any derogatory remarks about motorgliders… or motorglider pilots. Someday I may be so old that I no longer enjoy the intense thrill, excitement and adventure of flying a pure sailplane cross-country.
>
> >
>
> > Mike Koerner
>
>
>
> Same here. No disrespect whatsoever. On the contrary, some of my best buddies are flying motorgliders and are also better pilots, as they fly further AND rarely use the engine to make it back. you know who you are :)I am hoping someday to switch to a motorglider myself. But when I'll do, I will push the envelope further than I do now, thanks to he extra security. And yes, I certainly do fly in the high desert of the west. And yet, I can only recall one time in the last 10 years that a motorglider buddy of mine needed a ground retrieve (which I provided btw), while I cant count how many times myself or my non motorglider buddies needed ground retrieve. So I don't buy this "motorglider does not get you very far" claim. Not even in the high desert. True, it wouldn't get me the whole way back from where I go sometimes, but one rarely lands out so far from home anyway, just doesn't always make it all the way home. And none of my cross country buddies start their engine at 1500 feet AGL, unless it is obviously hopeless. So there is obvious pros and cons. You give up some of the intense thrill and adventure of flying pure sailplane cross country, for the convenient and less stress of flying even further or to places you otherwise wouldn't reach with a pure sailplane. And last, the main reason why my motorglider buddies still need to do ground retrieves every now and then, is to retrieve me...
>
>
>
> Ramy

I look forward to the day (nay, season) that you actually fly a motorglider so that you will be qualified to speak about them. Until then, you are simply SPECULATING (talk is ALWAYS cheap!). MG pilots don't land out much because they fly them with the same philosophy as non-MG pilots.

At the higher altitudes of the high desert the effective retrieve distance drops dramatically (I leave it as an excersise to the student to figure out why), making self retrieves problematic. You can get yourself out of a localized problem and get you to another thermal. But if there are no other thermals to be found, good luck!

The BEST advice I can give to prospective MG pilots is to fly it as you would a pure glider. Then you won't be disappointed. If you want to push the envelope, fine - just don't expect to make it back!

Tom

[Dan Marotta]

Two cents from a novice MG pilot: I was waiting for Tom's comments. The
engine is great for getting out of a local screwup (IF it works!) but not
for getting you home. Two examples:

Flying out of Black Forest in a friend's ASW-24E and getting too low near
Canon City, extracted the engine and begain climbing when I ran out of gas.
Had to land at Canon City and, since that ship required a special pump and
refueling rig, Claudio had to come and get me with the trailer.

Flying out of Moriarty in a friend's DG-500M-22 with my wife in the back
seat and down to about 1,500 AGL above the airport, I tried to demonstrate
the engine to her (I'd taken an aero tow). The engine would not extract.
My leg had bumped the maintenance switch guard disabling the engine control
panel.

It's certainly great to have friends who will let me use their fine
equipment and I respect the limitations. I will only attempt to use the
engine with 1,500 feet above a LANDABLE field, and I will not put myself in
a position where that is not possible.


"2G" > wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, May 22, 2013 12:14:27 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 21, 2013 10:29:39 PM UTC-7, wrote:
>
> > I would never make any derogatory remarks about motorgliders… or
> > motorglider pilots. Someday I may be so old that I no longer enjoy the
> > intense thrill, excitement and adventure of flying a pure sailplane
> > cross-country.
>
> >
>
> > Mike Koerner
>
>
>
> Same here. No disrespect whatsoever. On the contrary, some of my best
> buddies are flying motorgliders and are also better pilots, as they fly
> further AND rarely use the engine to make it back. you know who you are
> :)I am hoping someday to switch to a motorglider myself. But when I'll do,
> I will push the envelope further than I do now, thanks to he extra
> security. And yes, I certainly do fly in the high desert of the west. And
> yet, I can only recall one time in the last 10 years that a motorglider
> buddy of mine needed a ground retrieve (which I provided btw), while I
> cant count how many times myself or my non motorglider buddies needed
> ground retrieve. So I don't buy this "motorglider does not get you very
> far" claim. Not even in the high desert. True, it wouldn't get me the
> whole way back from where I go sometimes, but one rarely lands out so far
> from home anyway, just doesn't always make it all the way home. And none
> of my cross country buddies start their engine at 1500 feet AGL, unless it
> is obviously hopeless. So there is obvious pros and cons. You give up some
> of the intense thrill and adventure of flying pure sailplane cross
> country, for the convenient and less stress of flying even further or to
> places you otherwise wouldn't reach with a pure sailplane. And last, the
> main reason why my motorglider buddies still need to do ground retrieves
> every now and then, is to retrieve me...
>
>
>
> Ramy

I look forward to the day (nay, season) that you actually fly a motorglider
so that you will be qualified to speak about them. Until then, you are
simply SPECULATING (talk is ALWAYS cheap!). MG pilots don't land out much
because they fly them with the same philosophy as non-MG pilots.

At the higher altitudes of the high desert the effective retrieve distance
drops dramatically (I leave it as an excersise to the student to figure out
why), making self retrieves problematic. You can get yourself out of a
localized problem and get you to another thermal. But if there are no other
thermals to be found, good luck!

The BEST advice I can give to prospective MG pilots is to fly it as you
would a pure glider. Then you won't be disappointed. If you want to push the
envelope, fine - just don't expect to make it back!

Tom

[SF]

On Monday, April 29, 2013 10:30:09 AM UTC-4, Waveguru wrote:
> I would like to see how many points the motorglider guys would end up scoring if their motor was rendered unavailable after launch. A friend of mine couldn't get his motor started one day, so he took an aero tow, and his flying was much different that day. It's just not the same when you know you can crank up that iron thermal an motor home any time you want. It's definitely not a level playing field.
>
>
>
> Boggs

I was struggling at one of my first contests when a more experienced pilot suggested that if we could meet up in the start circle we could do a lead and follow so I could see how it is really done by someone that knows what they are doing. A day or so later we did meet up in the start circle and I followed him out to the first turn point (18 miles). Things went pretty well, and the trip to the next turn point went right past the airport, on the trip outbound from the first turn point I couldn't figure out what he was doing, we seemed to pass up good lift, we got lower and lower, finally ending up very near the airport, close to my quit flying and start landing height threshold. We found an exceptionally robust thermal and I abandoned the lead a follow scheme because I didn't like flying it that close to the ground before thermalling back up. (At the time I did not know he had an engine.) At dinner that night I asked him what he was thinking on that leg back from the first turn point, looking for something that would explain what looked like a very poor strategy. His response was "I thought that second leg was too slow, we were not finding any lift and I was going to fly back to the start circle, re-light myself with the engine and start over"

This led to the creation of a new rule for contest and cross country flights
NEVER FOLLOW ANYONE WITH AN ENGINE

SF