UK2 ER219 Supermarine Spitfire to US Shaibah.jpg

[Joseph Testagrose]

[Jeff - VK4XA]

Are you sure that these Spits were for the US Joe?
The insignia looks more like the SAAF star to me.


--
Jeff Cochrane - VK4XA
East Innisfail
QLD, Australia
"Joseph Testagrose" > wrote in message
...

[Savageduck[_3_]]

On 2013-04-30 19:17:19 -0700, "Jeff - VK4XA"
> said:

> Are you sure that these Spits were for the US Joe?
> The insignia looks more like the SAAF star to me.

That is the USAAF insignia as used on Spitfires. A white star on a blue
circular field.
The same shaped red star without a circular field was the Soviet version

The SAAF did not use a star. Up until 1949 the SAAF used a blue, white
and orange roundel with a gold border. In 1949 they changed to a large
white roundel with a broad blue border with a leaping gold springbok on
the white.



In 1961 they changed again to a graphic silhouette of Cape Town Castle
in blue with a springbok in gold. So it is a castle not a star.


The post apartheid SAAF insignia is a stylized nine point star with an eagle.



--
Regards,

Savageduck

[D. St-Sanvain]

Hello,

Savageduck a écrit dans
<news:2013043019554244897-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom> :
> On 2013-04-30 19:17:19 -0700, "Jeff - VK4XA"
> > said:
>
>> Are you sure that these Spits were for the US Joe?
>> The insignia looks more like the SAAF star to me.
>
> That is the USAAF insignia as used on Spitfires. A white star on a blue
> circular field.
> The same shaped red star without a circular field was the Soviet version
>
> The SAAF did not use a star. Up until 1949 the SAAF used a blue, white and
> orange roundel with a gold border. In 1949 they changed to a large white
> roundel with a broad blue border with a leaping gold springbok on the white.

Well, the SAAF did actually use a five pointed object, which was
definitely not a star :) but the outline of the castle of Good Hope, in
Cape Town : http://goo.gl/maps/L82aj

For these stars, it looks like a field modification, made in a hurry
"Don't shoot at me, I'm on your side" ?

--
D520
Delta Reflex : http://bdd.deltareflex.com
Light aviation : http://tagazous.free.fr
Roundels of the World :
http://cocardes.monde.online.fr/v2html/en/accueil.html

[Savageduck[_3_]]

On 2013-04-30 23:09:23 -0700, D. St-Sanvain
> said:

>
>
> Hello,
>
> Savageduck a écrit dans
> <news:2013043019554244897-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom> :
>> On 2013-04-30 19:17:19 -0700, "Jeff - VK4XA"
>> > said:
>>
>>> Are you sure that these Spits were for the US Joe?
>>> The insignia looks more like the SAAF star to me.
>>
>> That is the USAAF insignia as used on Spitfires. A white star on a blue
>> circular field.
>> The same shaped red star without a circular field was the Soviet version
>>
>> The SAAF did not use a star. Up until 1949 the SAAF used a blue, white and
>> orange roundel with a gold border. In 1949 they changed to a large white
>> roundel with a broad blue border with a leaping gold springbok on the white.
>
> Well, the SAAF did actually use a five pointed object, which was
> definitely not a star :) but the outline of the castle of Good Hope, in
> Cape Town : http://goo.gl/maps/L82aj
>
> For these stars, it looks like a field modification, made in a hurry
> "Don't shoot at me, I'm on your side" ?

If you had scrolled down to see and read all of my post you would have
seen each of the examples of SAAF insignia I posted including the
following:
"In 1961 they changed again to a graphic silhouette of Cape Town Castle
in blue with a springbok in gold. So it is a castle not a star."

So this was not the WWII era SAAF insignia.
....and just incase you didn't see any of the images I included in that
post, below you will find the URL and the repost of the one discussed
above.
< http://www.groundshout.co.za/misc/mirage_iii/Castle.png >


--
Regards,

Savageduck

[Netko]

On Wed, 1 May 2013 07:09:23 +0100, D. St-Sanvain wrote
(in article >):

> For these stars, it looks like a field modification, made in a hurry
> "Don't shoot at me, I'm on your side" ?

Stars were used on British aircraft during Operation Torch, not just to
minimise friendly fire but also as a 'false flag' - following Mers el Kebir
the UK had reason to believe they would not be particularly popular with the
French in North Africa.

However, the location of ER219 is given as Shaibah - presumably RAF Shaibah
in Iraq. If correct, this line-up of aircraft is odd.

[D. St-Sanvain]

Savageduck a écrit dans
<news:2013050100481683871-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom> :
> On 2013-04-30 23:09:23 -0700, D. St-Sanvain >
> said:
>
>>
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> Savageduck a écrit dans
>> <news:2013043019554244897-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom> :
>>> On 2013-04-30 19:17:19 -0700, "Jeff - VK4XA"
>>> > said:
>>>
>>>> Are you sure that these Spits were for the US Joe?
>>>> The insignia looks more like the SAAF star to me.
>>>
>>> That is the USAAF insignia as used on Spitfires. A white star on a blue
>>> circular field.
>>> The same shaped red star without a circular field was the Soviet version
>>>
>>> The SAAF did not use a star. Up until 1949 the SAAF used a blue, white and
>>> orange roundel with a gold border. In 1949 they changed to a large white
>>> roundel with a broad blue border with a leaping gold springbok on the
>>> white.
>>
>> Well, the SAAF did actually use a five pointed object, which was
>> definitely not a star :) but the outline of the castle of Good Hope, in
>> Cape Town : http://goo.gl/maps/L82aj
>>
>> For these stars, it looks like a field modification, made in a hurry
>> "Don't shoot at me, I'm on your side" ?
>
> If you had scrolled down to see and read all of my post you would have seen
> each of the examples of SAAF insignia I posted including the following:
> "In 1961 they changed again to a graphic silhouette of Cape Town Castle
> in blue with a springbok in gold. So it is a castle not a star."
>
> So this was not the WWII era SAAF insignia.
> ...and just incase you didn't see any of the images I included in that post,
> below you will find the URL and the repost of the one discussed above.
> < http://www.groundshout.co.za/misc/mirage_iii/Castle.png >

I have the pictures, not the whole text :)

--
D520
Delta Reflex : http://bdd.deltareflex.com
Light aviation : http://tagazous.free.fr
Roundels of the World :
http://cocardes.monde.online.fr/v2html/en/accueil.html

[JR[_4_]]

On Wed, 1 May 2013 09:28:45 +0100, Netko >
wrote:


>However, the location of ER219 is given as Shaibah - presumably RAF Shaibah
>in Iraq. If correct, this line-up of aircraft is odd.

2 possibilities:
-post war storage?
-Spits previously used by US, about to be sent to the USSR?

[Netko]

On Wed, 1 May 2013 12:46:47 +0100, JR wrote
(in article >):


>> However, the location of ER219 is given as Shaibah - presumably RAF Shaibah
>> in Iraq. If correct, this line-up of aircraft is odd.
>
> 2 possibilities:
> -post war storage?
> -Spits previously used by US, about to be sent to the USSR?

Ah, being sent to the USSR - that hadn't occurred to me and it's probably the
answer. Thank you.

RAF Spitfires were shipped to Iraq from North Africa and at least some were
re-assembled at Shaibah before being ferried to Abadan for collection by
Soviet pilots. It's plausible to assume that these deliveries included
Spitfires still wearing Torch stars.

A couple of on-line references of relevance:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/94/a4142594.shtml

http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/spit/

[Ramsman]

On 01/05/2013 13:55, Netko wrote:
> On Wed, 1 May 2013 12:46:47 +0100, JR wrote
> (in article >):
>
>
>>> However, the location of ER219 is given as Shaibah - presumably RAF Shaibah
>>> in Iraq. If correct, this line-up of aircraft is odd.
>>
>> 2 possibilities:
>> -post war storage?
>> -Spits previously used by US, about to be sent to the USSR?
>
> Ah, being sent to the USSR - that hadn't occurred to me and it's probably the
> answer. Thank you.
>
> RAF Spitfires were shipped to Iraq from North Africa and at least some were
> re-assembled at Shaibah before being ferried to Abadan for collection by
> Soviet pilots. It's plausible to assume that these deliveries included
> Spitfires still wearing Torch stars.
>
> A couple of on-line references of relevance:
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/94/a4142594.shtml
>
> http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/spit/
>
>

The stars look very crude, including on the wing of ER219. Note that the
aircraft in the foreground has a star on the fuselage but an RAF Type B
on the wing.

Morgan & Shacklady's Spitfire The History gives basic details of every
aircraft. ER219 is not shown as going to the USAAF, but was struck off
charge on 30-4-43. I think it's probable that these stars are Operation
Torch markings, although that was from 8-11-42. But why Shaibah in that
case, unless that's where aircraft were scrapped?

--
Peter

[Netko]

On Wed, 1 May 2013 14:50:52 +0100, Ramsman wrote
(in article >):

> Morgan & Shacklady's Spitfire The History gives basic details of every
> aircraft. ER219 is not shown as going to the USAAF, but was struck off
> charge on 30-4-43. I think it's probable that these stars are Operation
> Torch markings, although that was from 8-11-42. But why Shaibah in that
> case, unless that's where aircraft were scrapped?

Sorry I didn't make it clear enough in my post but the Spitfires were crated
up in N Africa, shipped to Iraq and re-assembled in Shaibah (and possibly
elsewhere). They were then flown over the border to Iran where they were
collected by the Soviet Air Force.

The March '43 date you quote corresponds to the timing in the Russian URL I
listed.

[Jeff - VK4XA]

Thanks very much to you all for the information, I didn't know that the spits that
went to Russia went via Iraq / Iran.

I have learnt much this morning, thanks again.
--
Jeff Cochrane - VK4XA
East Innisfail
QLD, Australia
"Netko" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 1 May 2013 14:50:52 +0100, Ramsman wrote
> (in article >):
>
>> Morgan & Shacklady's Spitfire The History gives basic details of every
>> aircraft. ER219 is not shown as going to the USAAF, but was struck off
>> charge on 30-4-43. I think it's probable that these stars are Operation
>> Torch markings, although that was from 8-11-42. But why Shaibah in that
>> case, unless that's where aircraft were scrapped?
>
> Sorry I didn't make it clear enough in my post but the Spitfires were crated
> up in N Africa, shipped to Iraq and re-assembled in Shaibah (and possibly
> elsewhere). They were then flown over the border to Iran where they were
> collected by the Soviet Air Force.
>
> The March '43 date you quote corresponds to the timing in the Russian URL I
> listed.
>

[Ramsman]

On 01/05/2013 19:28, Netko wrote:
> On Wed, 1 May 2013 14:50:52 +0100, Ramsman wrote
> (in article >):
>
>> Morgan & Shacklady's Spitfire The History gives basic details of every
>> aircraft. ER219 is not shown as going to the USAAF, but was struck off
>> charge on 30-4-43. I think it's probable that these stars are Operation
>> Torch markings, although that was from 8-11-42. But why Shaibah in that
>> case, unless that's where aircraft were scrapped?
>
> Sorry I didn't make it clear enough in my post but the Spitfires were crated
> up in N Africa, shipped to Iraq and re-assembled in Shaibah (and possibly
> elsewhere). They were then flown over the border to Iran where they were
> collected by the Soviet Air Force.
>
> The March '43 date you quote corresponds to the timing in the Russian URL I
> listed.
>

The data in the book are taken from RAF Form 78, which lists the
movement of an aircraft from unit to unit, and had ER219 been
transferred to another air force it would have been shown as such on the
form.

There are lists of all aircraft transferred to other air forces, and
ER219 does not appear as going to either the USAAF or the USSR, so I
think we can assume that it never left the RAF.
--
Peter

[Netko]

On Wed, 1 May 2013 23:48:38 +0100, Ramsman wrote
(in article >):

> There are lists of all aircraft transferred to other air forces, and
> ER219 does not appear as going to either the USAAF or the USSR, so I
> think we can assume that it never left the RAF.

Fair enough, but I was trying to work out how a batch of Spitfires, carrying
what appear to be Torch stars, ended up in Iraq. The answer 'Transfer to the
Soviet Union' fits all the known facts.

As for ER219 itself, this may have been one of those Spitfires which Zlobin
notes as having been destroyed en route to the handover in Abadan, assuming,
of course, that it hadn't previously met its end (for whatever reason) at
Shaibah.

Finally, here's a photo inherited by the USAF which shows Abadan in Persia
with a bunch of rebranded A-20s, P-40s and AT-6s. Probably 1943.

[Ramsman]

On 02/05/2013 14:39, Netko wrote:
> On Wed, 1 May 2013 23:48:38 +0100, Ramsman wrote
> (in article >):
>
>> There are lists of all aircraft transferred to other air forces, and
>> ER219 does not appear as going to either the USAAF or the USSR, so I
>> think we can assume that it never left the RAF.
>

Unfortunately no unit is shown as operating ER219, beyond its being in
North-West Africa.

> Fair enough, but I was trying to work out how a batch of Spitfires, carrying
> what appear to be Torch stars, ended up in Iraq. The answer 'Transfer to the
> Soviet Union' fits all the known facts.
>
> As for ER219 itself, this may have been one of those Spitfires which Zlobin
> notes as having been destroyed en route to the handover in Abadan, assuming,
> of course, that it hadn't previously met its end (for whatever reason) at
> Shaibah.
>
> Finally, here's a photo inherited by the USAF which shows Abadan in Persia
> with a bunch of rebranded A-20s, P-40s and AT-6s. Probably 1943.
>

It's a pity the quality of the photo is too poor to read other serials,
as knowing them might lead to further information.

--
Peter

[Netko]

On Thu, 2 May 2013 15:40:15 +0100, Ramsman wrote
(in article >):

> It's a pity the quality of the photo is too poor to read other serials,
> as knowing them might lead to further information.

Agreed. Incidentally, adding to the (dis)information about ER219, Google
tells me that Ventura Publications, a New Zealand company, used to produce a
set of decals for this aircraft which described it as a USAAF machine.

Also, the IWM catalogue mentions a film which adds a new twist to the story
of Spitfires at Shaibah in early 1943. According to this, the Spitfires
(some? all?) were not a straightforward transfer from the RAF to the Soviet
AF, instead being a swap for US A-20s intended for the USSR. The description
reads:

"British Spitfires being checked in a RAF workshop at Shaibah, Iraq before
being sent to Russia (in exchange for forty Boston Bombers diverted from Iran
to Egypt while en route to Russia)".

Finally, the film has a scene in which an "RAF Bullseye is sprayed over and a
Red Star stencilled in its place". I haven't seen the film (it's not
available on-line) so this may be an accurate account but it may just
represent an assumption about what the red star was replacing.

http://m.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060034712