LS 4 vs ASW 20

[Walt Connelly]

Your opinions please.

Walt

[kirk.stant]

On Sunday, May 19, 2013 6:32:37 PM UTC+2, Walt Connelly wrote:
> Your opinions please.

LS4 has go to be the easiest and safest std class glider to fly. Excellent performance if flown correctly (don't thermal too slow - fast and steep seems better), goes well loaded with water, big cockpit, foolproof (well, almost) gear system. If it was in production now, it would be the perfect first solo glider.

ASW-20 is a classic, great performance, but can be tricky in some configurations, and probably not a beginners's glider.

Both are wonderful to fly - which is better depends on what you want to do. Fun flying - the LS4 it tough to beat. Serious XC or racing on a budget? The 20 can hang in there still and has the "busy" feel that can be really cool.

Kirk
66

[noel.wade]

On May 19, 9:32*am, Walt Connelly
> wrote:
> Your opinions please.
>
> Walt
>
> --
> Walt Connelly

Walt -

Both are great gliders. Unless you're interested in pushing them to
the absolute limit, you should probably base this decision on non-
flying characteristics. The two ones I'd be most-concerned about are:
1) Ergonomics. Which glider fits you better? If you're going for any
multi-hour flights, cockpit ergonomics becomes important!
2) Trailer. Which glider has a better trailer? Cobra/Komet "clamshell-
type" trailers are much preferable to tube-type trailers (I say this
having owned both).

Of course price pays a factor, as does the double-edged sword of flaps
(you can go faster, faster; but its an additional item to worry about
every time you transition from climbing to cruise, cruise to climb, on
takeoff, and on landing).

Good luck,

--Noel

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, May 19, 2013 11:32:37 AM UTC-5, Walt Connelly wrote:
> Your opinions please.
>
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> Walt
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> Walt Connelly

I had a Minden tube ..... great trailer. Easy in/out, tows great..... the gelcoat or refinish is the money question.

[Terry Pitts]

I'm 6' tall and weight more than I'd like. Though I have no experience with the ASW20 to compare, I found the LS4 quite comfortable except for the time the seat was too far forward and my parachute too low...

[Papa3[_2_]]

On Sunday, May 19, 2013 12:32:37 PM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:
> Your opinions please.
>
>
>
> Walt

I have a few hundred hours in an LS4 compared to only about 20 or so in ASW20s (two original models sometimes called "A" and a C). So, there's a slight bias in terms of experience.

- LS4 is almost the perfect standard class glider. Incredibly easy to fly with good takeoff and landing characteristics and just doesn't bite unless horribly provoked. Excellent performance. The only two things I'd change are the landing gear (tiny wheel and pathetic brake) and the canopy mechanism (fiddly and insubstantial compared to Schleicher). I loved mine and sold it mainly because it was 20 years old and starting to require more care and feeding.

- ASW20 is just a classic 15M ship. I found the winglets to be a big improvement for low speed handling, but the original straight tips weren't too bad. The early 20's could land in a small pasture with L flap - just be sure you have enough energy to round out. I would say that a 20 in thermal flap can be "interesting" in a spin if provoked; I found that it would recover at or maybe slightly beyond vertical depending on CG and the spin entry mode. Maybe a little more of a handful than the LS4, but something you would easily get used to with some hours.

IMO, you can't go wrong with either of these. If you're buying used, it's the age old compromise of airframe, instruments, and trailer. A refinish is the biggest cost, followed by trailer and then instruments.

Email me directly if you want more notes on the LS4; I have a whole notebook I wrote up when I owned mine.

P3

[guy]

Both are classic gliders. Great examples of a flapped and standard
class ships. Both fly beautifully with the LS-4 being the most
predictable and most comfortable, in my opinion.
Similar to other commenters, I would put my primary emphasis on the
trailer, and secondarily on the condition of the ship.
I have found the trailer to be the most significant issue in the
quality of my soaring day. A marginal trailer results in cut hands,
bumped heads, sore backs, and new dents and dings on the ship. A
great trailer allows easy one person rigging with no personal injuries
and virtually no new damage to the ship.

I purchased an SZD-59 a several years ago that had a Polish copy of a
Cobra trailer. Looked nice. However, all the details of how nuts and
bolts were placed, clearances between wings and trailer sides, how the
elevator mounted in the trailer, how the ramp moved in and out were
sooooooooooo different from my real Cobra trailer with my previous
ship, that I ended up buying a new Cobra trailer for my ship. It made
all the difference in the pleasure of my soaring day. It made all the
difference to me in deciding on a marginal day whether I would go out
to the glider port or not.

Actually, I would base my decision on the trailer first, and the ship
second. Unless, of course, you have the money to pay people to set-up
your ship upon your beckoned call when you want to fly. Then it is
their knuckles, fingers, backs, and scalps that experience the
differences.

Guy Acheson "DDS"

[Wallace Berry[_2_]]

In article >,
"kirk.stant" > wrote:

>
> Both are wonderful to fly - which is better depends on what you want to do.
> Fun flying - the LS4 it tough to beat. Serious XC or racing on a budget? The
> 20 can hang in there still and has the "busy" feel that can be really cool.
>
> Kirk
> 66


Yes, the "busy" feel of the glider talking about what the air is doing.
That's my only reservation about the LS-4. It is almost too placid in
the air. I'm used to flying a 301 Libelle, the very definition of a
"busy" feeling glider. LS-4's, while extremely easy and pleasant to fly,
feel almost "dead" to me compared to my Libelle or a -20.

My preference, from flying so long with flaps, is for flapped ships.
Whenever I fly an unflapped ship, it always feels like diving at the
ground to go fast.

[Papa3[_2_]]

On Monday, May 20, 2013 10:30:51 AM UTC-4, WB wrote:
> In article >,
>

> My preference, from flying so long with flaps, is for flapped ships.
>
> Whenever I fly an unflapped ship, it always feels like diving at the
>
> ground to go fast.

I think the Brits coined the term "tilters" for folks who fly Standard Class vs. Flapped gliders. We tilt at the ground to go faster. You shove the flap handle forward. :-)

P3
Flapless and Proud

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, May 19, 2013 12:32:37 PM UTC-4, Walt Connelly wrote:
> Your opinions please.
>
>
>
> Walt
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> Walt Connelly

Walt:

I owned an LS-4a and flew it quite a few hours!... it was the best investment anybody (Andy McQuigg!) could have recommended me!... want more: talk to Karen & Billy Kerns!

See you one of these days!
Best regards
Enrique
KO

[Papa3[_2_]]

On Monday, May 20, 2013 10:30:51 AM UTC-4, WB wrote:
> In article >,
>
> Yes, the "busy" feel of the glider talking about what the air is doing.
>
> That's my only reservation about the LS-4. It is almost too placid in
>
> the air. I'm used to flying a 301 Libelle, the very definition of a
>
> "busy" feeling glider. LS-4's, while extremely easy and pleasant to fly,
>
> feel almost "dead" to me compared to my Libelle or a -20.
>
>
>
> My preference, from flying so long with flaps, is for flapped ships.
>
> Whenever I fly an unflapped ship, it always feels like diving at the
>
> ground to go fast.

FWIW and not to get too far off topic, but... I found the LS4 reacted very well to CG fiddling. The sweet spot for my flying style was about 80-85% of aft limit (I liked to thermal as slow as possible and relatively steep for the typical mid-atlantic thermals). Too far forward and it just felt too sluggish/stable. YMMV.

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, May 19, 2013 8:32:37 AM UTC-8, Walt Connelly wrote:
> Your opinions please. Walt -- Walt Connelly

I owned a ASW 20 for a few years, and borrowed a LS4 a few times for competitions.
As others have said, both are classic excellent gliders,

But!

Flaps assist in take off, improve towing(especially with water), Make landings slower and thus safer, improve cruise, and impove thermaling,

really no contest.

[Keith[_2_]]

On Sunday, May 19, 2013 6:57:32 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> On Sunday, May 19, 2013 11:32:37 AM UTC-5, Walt Connelly wrote:
>
> > Your opinions please.
>
> >
> > Walt


>
> > Walt Connelly
>
>
>
> I had a Minden tube ..... great trailer. Easy in/out, tows great..... the gelcoat or refinish is the money question.

I also have a Minden tube trailer, and I hate it. They are apparently not all alike. Try taking everything out of a Minden, put the ship together and put it back in. Then help someone do it with a Cobra or Comet clamshell. You will never regret springing for the better trailer.

[[email protected]]

> I also have a Minden tube trailer, and I hate it. They are apparently not all alike. Try taking everything out of a Minden, put the ship together and put it back in. Then help someone do it with a Cobra or Comet clamshell. You will never regret springing for the better trailer.

- I can fully relate to that statement. It's one of the poorest design I had ever seen, it has no handling improvements at so ever, plus its easy to damage glider parts during rigging and de-rigging process. Replaced mine with used Cobra and regretted purchasing one in the first place - should have negotiated the price of the glider down, without the junky trailer.

GK

[Uncle Fuzzy[_2_]]

.... foolproof (well, almost) gear system. If it was in production now, it would be the perfect first solo glider.
While I think the LS4 is the easiest to fly glider I've ever flown, and I LOVE the control harmony and the way it 'grooves' in thermals, I have to take issue with the statement about the gear system. I believe the use of a gas spring in the gear extension system is completely insane. WHEN the gas strut fails, you will be able to RETRACT the gear perfectly. You just won't be able to lock it down. Search 'gear collapse' in RAS.

[Yannick Bgn]

On Tuesday, May 21, 2013 12:16:23 AM UTC-4, Uncle Fuzzy wrote:
> ... foolproof (well, almost) gear system. If it was in production now, it would be the perfect first solo glider.
>
> While I think the LS4 is the easiest to fly glider I've ever flown, and I LOVE the control harmony and the way it 'grooves' in thermals, I have to take issue with the statement about the gear system. I believe the use of a gas spring in the gear extension system is completely insane. WHEN the gas strut fails, you will be able to RETRACT the gear perfectly. You just won't be able to lock it down. Search 'gear collapse' in RAS.

:( Been there, done that. Gear collapse during an outlanding due to gas strut failure. This is not a pleasant fealing :(

You also have to take into account the availability for the parts. As the LS4 is no longer in production, I believe you have to pay the infamous DG taxe to get support.

Yannick

[JJ Sinclair[_2_]]

Both great ships. The 20 is about 50% stronger when it comes to surviving a full blown ground-loop. The gear in the 4 wont take much side loads and the cockpit has been known to open up like a can of sardines. I have repaired two of them where the canopy glass and frame broke, that allowed the cockpit sides to spread outward, leaving the pilot sitting in a pile of fiberglass rubble.
Also, any kind of clam-shell trailer is much better than any tube type trailer. You will have to bend over anytime you remove or replace the wings...............Oh, my aching back!
JJ

[Mike the Strike]

I've owned both and flown them cross-country, with perhaps 120 hours in an LS-4 and 500 in an ASW-20. If you have to land in short spaces, the 20 is the best choice hands down with its combination of strong flaps and spoilers. IMHO, the handling problems of the 20 are overblown, provided that you keep the CG in the right place and don't deploy landing flap until you're on final.

The LS-4 is unquestionably a sweet-flying ship.

I agree with other posters - I would take a nice LS-4 with good instruments and trailer over a beaten-up 20 with ratty trailer! You need to look at the whole package, but either ship could work for you.

Mike

[[email protected]]

Keith & GK I'm sorry you feel so bad about your MF trailers at the time they were built 70s and 80s the Cobra bad spar fitting that let the wing fall to the floor and we was 1/2 the price, and they didn't have RO RO at the time as well
Tom Stowers

[JS]

As you have read... Both are excellent gliders.
Owned LS4 for 7 years (and LS6 for 12 years) so would be one of the happy returning customers Hr. Weber bought LS for, until DG's customer appreciation policy AKA "LS Tax" came about.
LS4 is one of the easiest gliders to get performance out of, it pretty much does what you're thinking. The 20 is a great performer, and I prefer having that extra handle.
Replacing the gas strut on the gear is like replacing the gas strut on a car's hatchback. Regular inspection, occasional maintenance.
Brakes in either LS4 or early 20 can be fixed, ie Vintage Brake in Sonora, CA. or the various disc brake mods available.
The Klappi trailer is probably only a factor if you've previously used one, sort of like automatic control hookups: What's the big deal? Oh, THAT's the big deal.
Jim

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

On Wednesday, May 22, 2013 1:26:19 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> Keith & GK I'm sorry you feel so bad about your MF trailers at the time they were built 70s and 80s the Cobra bad spar fitting that let the wing fall to the floor and we was 1/2 the price, and they didn't have RO RO at the time as well Tom Stowers

Well, Tom, I have one of your trailers, and I LOVE it. Holds my Zuni 2, one man rigger, wing wheel, tail dolly, tow bar, two wing stands, wash bucket, a couple of lawn chairs, and has room for more. No spare tire mount that can break and drop the tire on the glider. Wing dollies that won't tip over. Stable scissors jack to raise and lower for raising and lowering the gear. Jacks to support the back end, tilt tongue so you don't have to disconnect from the car to get the glider out.

All trailers have their development issues. I suspect a lot of "bad" that is being given to Minden Fab is due to fixtures made by others that worked OK but could have been much better. By the time they got to mine (late 81 or early 82), they had things very well sorted out. If, the buyer did what was right and bought all of the Minden Fab gear. Who now would consider buying a Cobra trailer with no fixtures inside? Oh, wait. I am dealing with one of those right now. Having to make everything myself, as it is a one off machine I am fitting into a Cobra I had to make longer.

For those who hate Minden Fab trailers, I will gladly accept yours as a donation. Drop them off any time.

Steve Leonard
Wichita, KS

[[email protected]]

Re: Minden Fabrication trailers "It's one of the poorest design I had ever seen"

If that's true you are a VERY lucky person!

My club has one of those Swiss made oval aluminium tube trailers containing a Twin Astir RG. The wings go in root first (good) but right wing on the left, left wing on the right, the wings have to be removed and replaced in a certain order as the root dollies, captive to a track, overlap each other, removing a wing involves pulling out a lock, pulling a cable to unlock the dolly, raising the wing tip and moving it to the center, having someone pull a lever to swing the mid-span support out of the way and then carrying the tip all the way out a few inches above the ground as a few inches too high or too low cause the wing to scrape (all bad). The fuselage goes in tail first and is supported by a frame which engages tracks in the trailer. This means that when you pull it out of the trailer the only thing keeping it from tipping over are the people holding it. The tail rides in a captive dolly (and it takes some finesse to get the tail out over the dolly without the tail tip hitting the trailer top) which sits on the ground and does a good job of trying to trip up everyone carrying the wings out.

Oh, we also have a Twin Acro in a trailer where the wings go in tip first on slings (meaning you have to carry the heaviest end of the wing the longest distance possible) and the glider is loaded/unloaded OVER THE TRAILER HITCH! Then there's the enclosed L-23 trailer where the wings load tip first right wing on the left, left wing on the right as well.

You have no idea how happy I was to see that the DG-505 we bought came with a Cobra (and no charge for DG tech support!)

As for the LS-4 vs. ASW-20: yes, definitely one or the other. Probably comes down to whether you feel you need and can handle the extra capabilities flaps give.

Back when Rolladen Schneider went belly up I recall that the type certificate, manufacture and tech support for the LS-4 went to AMS Flight (?) but they never seemed to do anything with it. Now that DG is offering support you'll have to pay for it but you will actually get it which removes the one concern I would have had about buying an LS-4.

So far I've had good support from Eastern Sailplane and Schleicher for my ship with no annual charge - a point in favor of a Schleicher there.

[Echo]

On Sunday, May 19, 2013 8:12:01 PM UTC-5, Terry Pitts wrote:
> I'm 6' tall and weight more than I'd like. Though I have no experience with the ASW20 to compare, I found the LS4 quite comfortable except for the time the seat was too far forward and my parachute too low...

I'm 6'5" and broad shouldered. Seat back out of my 20, chute on, astronaut foam...and I also have a hand-pump controlled inflatable lumbar cushion attached to my chute. I feel great after 5 hours in the 20. Flew a 27 a few months ago, definitely not as comfy.

Jordan
ASW20 E

[[email protected]]

Erik, has good points.. I owned an Asw20 with winglets for 12 years. Flew the Ls4 a few times. Honestly, the LS4 handles better and is more stable, however the Asw20 still is a great handling ship. The 20, is much more versatile, and has better performance. The best part about the 20 is its short landing performance and glide path control. I landed the 20 in some hideous fields that the LS4 Would have ended up in kit form. A wingleted 20 definitely handles better. LS4 is a great ship regardless.

[Jacopo Romei]

> Your opinions please.

Some crowdsourced opinion here:
http://www.gliderreview.com/comparing-gliders/schleicher-asw-20/rolladen-schneider-ls4

[Papa3[_2_]]

On Thursday, January 19, 2017 at 10:37:34 AM UTC-5, Jacopo Romei wrote:
> > Your opinions please.
>
> Some crowdsourced opinion here:
> http://www.gliderreview.com/comparing-gliders/schleicher-asw-20/rolladen-schneider-ls4

For what it's worth... the way you are assigning "class" is problematic. Club Class is just an overlay on top of the original FAI classes. So, the ASW-20 is 15 meter class and the LS4 is standard class. All LS4 models can also complete in IGC Club Class; some ASW-20 models can.

[George Haeh]

Both lovely gliders.

- on LS-4 annual support fee

- on ASW-20 manual elevator hookup on first model "A". Considerable
attrition because of this.

The flap limit speeds must be taken seriously on the 20, especially the "A"

model extreme landing flap.

The B and C models got those items fixed plus got a good disc brake.

Very good to hear that there's brake mods for the LS-4.

Both will come with 80s vintage trailer.

Some folks have managed to mix up spoiler and gear handle in the 20. Much

harder to do in the 4.

My old club got a complaint that there was no airspeed on the 4 - which
managed just fine on tow and landing. The fin pitot was taped over.

Similarly you don't want to forget mounting the pitot static probe on the
20.

As for Twin Astir trailers, you are not allowed to land out unless you have
at
least four strong fellas plus yourself available for designing.

The DG-1000 can be derigged with three when the local XC kamikaze gets
carried away with optimism.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Friday, January 20, 2017 at 7:30:05 AM UTC+3, George Haeh wrote:
> Both lovely gliders.
>
> - on LS-4 annual support fee
>
> - on ASW-20 manual elevator hookup on first model "A". Considerable
> attrition because of this.
>
> The flap limit speeds must be taken seriously on the 20, especially the "A"
>
> model extreme landing flap.
>
> The B and C models got those items fixed plus got a good disc brake.
>
> Very good to hear that there's brake mods for the LS-4.
>
> Both will come with 80s vintage trailer.
>
> Some folks have managed to mix up spoiler and gear handle in the 20. Much
>
> harder to do in the 4.
>
> My old club got a complaint that there was no airspeed on the 4 - which
> managed just fine on tow and landing. The fin pitot was taped over.
>
> Similarly you don't want to forget mounting the pitot static probe on the
> 20.
>
> As for Twin Astir trailers, you are not allowed to land out unless you have
> at
> least four strong fellas plus yourself available for designing.
>
> The DG-1000 can be derigged with three when the local XC kamikaze gets
> carried away with optimism.

I've rigged and derigged the DG1000 with one other person, one wing stand, and the trailer fuselage cradle. This does however require one of the people to know what they're doing and have done it a few times.

[Jacopo Romei]

> For what it's worth... the way you are assigning "class" is problematic.

I am aware of this issue. Thanks for pointing this out though.
So far I relied on Wikipedia's assigning, but I understand (by reading the rules) that Club class is a "virtual" class.

Do you think I should *never* mention the Club class and stick to the original class assignment? Do you think it should be the case for every glider possibly assignable to Club class?

Thank you, learning a lot! :-)

--
Jacopo

[Bob Kuykendall]

On Thursday, January 19, 2017 at 8:30:05 PM UTC-8, George Haeh wrote:

> - on ASW-20 manual elevator hookup on first model "A". Considerable
> attrition because of this.

A true statement for moderately fatal values of "attrition."

All else being equal, for any two gliders choose the one with automatic control connections.

--Bob K.

[[email protected]]

Hi, I'm looking for wing extensions for the schleicher asw 20 bl w, winglets are sorted. If you know anything please let me know. Thanks

[Charles Longley]

I might be willing to sell mine. I just PM’d you.