Why not put an audible variometer in every glider?

[son_of_flubber]

Here is something that you might be able to do to improve glider safety for everybody (yourself included).

Buy yourself a brand new variometer (you deserve it!). Give your old "perfectly good audible variometer" to a club, a commercial training operation, or one of those pocket-empty "first glider" owners that need to buy all of the "extras" that he/she needs. (Dang! that list is long: parachute, wing wheel, trailer repairs, new batteries etc., etc...).

Post the availability of your generous gift to RAS.

If somebody is clever, knowledgeable and motivated, they might set up a program with SSA that would get you a tax-deduction for your charitable gift of a valuable variometer and direct the vario to a waiting list of deserving clubs.

I recently learned to fly gliders at three otherwise excellent clubs. None of the trainers had audible variometers. Now I have to break the bad habit of frequently looking at the vario needle. Dumb. BTW, I have an audio variometer, but I don't have the skill to use it.

[kirk.stant]

On Wednesday, May 29, 2013 12:19:03 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
> Here is something that you might be able to do to improve glider safety for everybody (yourself included).
>
>
>
> Buy yourself a brand new variometer (you deserve it!). Give your old "perfectly good audible variometer" to a club, a commercial training operation, or one of those pocket-empty "first glider" owners that need to buy all of the "extras" that he/she needs. (Dang! that list is long: parachute, wing wheel, trailer repairs, new batteries etc., etc...).
>
>
>
> Post the availability of your generous gift to RAS.
>
>
>
> If somebody is clever, knowledgeable and motivated, they might set up a program with SSA that would get you a tax-deduction for your charitable gift of a valuable variometer and direct the vario to a waiting list of deserving clubs.
>
>
>
> I recently learned to fly gliders at three otherwise excellent clubs. None of the trainers had audible variometers. Now I have to break the bad habit of frequently looking at the vario needle. Dumb. BTW, I have an audio variometer, but I don't have the skill to use it.

Of course, when you get your new fancy V7, CNv, or Butterfly vario, you will be spending all your time staring at it to get all that fancy information that you paid for!

The other problem is getting the average club user to even acknowledge the presence of an audio vario, and go to the bother of putting in a charged battery, learning how to use it, etc..

We can't get our club to agree that radios are a good thing! "Too complicated, confuses the student, they can't learn to fly and talk at the same time yadda yadda yadda".

Pathetic, really.

Kirk
66

[Morgan[_2_]]

Oh the old radio argument. Wow, have I had some battles on that one.

Those in my club that read RAS will know this story, but most comical radio usage discussion and irony I've dealt with.

Week 1: I propose buying handhelds and speaker mics to use in the trainers.. Along with suggestion on how to incorporate it and when...
Week 2: Fire and brimstone rain down on why radios are unnecessary and the whole yada, yada. One instructor (Instructor X) in particular.
Week 3: Instructor X gets into wave with a student. I am on tow in our Duo. Instructor X calls the person in my back seat on a cell phone to tell us where the wave is at. Imagine how much easier that would have been with a radio.


Regarding Audio Varios, yes they would be nice and an upgrade/donation program is not a bad idea, but I don't think I know of very many people with a plain Audio vario. We did manage one upgrade to a club ship through a situation like this, but most people seem to have audio varios that are linked to their flight computer.

An alternate solution that I have employed at our club is the use of a couple of old Hang Gliding varios that I had. Sit that in your lap, tied to your seat belt and keep your head out of the cockpit. Often a simple HG or PG vario can be picked up for under $100 and does a very good job. The batteries last a very long time and it trains people to fly the sound not the needle.

It's not TE compensated, but for a 2-33 or a 1-26, there isn't a lot of extra E to compensate for so it generally works quite well. There are also some clip-on audio varios from Flytec and Malletec that work great as well.



On Wednesday, May 29, 2013 10:38:18 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 29, 2013 12:19:03 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
>
> > Here is something that you might be able to do to improve glider safety for everybody (yourself included).
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Buy yourself a brand new variometer (you deserve it!). Give your old "perfectly good audible variometer" to a club, a commercial training operation, or one of those pocket-empty "first glider" owners that need to buy all of the "extras" that he/she needs. (Dang! that list is long: parachute, wing wheel, trailer repairs, new batteries etc., etc...).
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Post the availability of your generous gift to RAS.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > If somebody is clever, knowledgeable and motivated, they might set up a program with SSA that would get you a tax-deduction for your charitable gift of a valuable variometer and direct the vario to a waiting list of deserving clubs.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I recently learned to fly gliders at three otherwise excellent clubs. None of the trainers had audible variometers. Now I have to break the bad habit of frequently looking at the vario needle. Dumb. BTW, I have an audio variometer, but I don't have the skill to use it.
>
>
>
> Of course, when you get your new fancy V7, CNv, or Butterfly vario, you will be spending all your time staring at it to get all that fancy information that you paid for!
>
>
>
> The other problem is getting the average club user to even acknowledge the presence of an audio vario, and go to the bother of putting in a charged battery, learning how to use it, etc..
>
>
>
> We can't get our club to agree that radios are a good thing! "Too complicated, confuses the student, they can't learn to fly and talk at the same time yadda yadda yadda".
>
>
>
> Pathetic, really.
>
>
>
> Kirk
>
> 66

[son_of_flubber]

On Wednesday, May 29, 2013 1:38:18 PM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:

> We can't get our club to agree that radios are a good thing!

But you digress, audible variometers (unlike radios) are universally agreed to improve "see and avoid".

Have the student bring the charged battery. No battery --> no lesson.

[son_of_flubber]

On Wednesday, May 29, 2013 2:08:53 PM UTC-4, Morgan wrote:

>There are also some clip-on audio varios from Flytec and Malletec that work great as well.

Towards the end of my training, I got a clip-on Flytec. I've found it hard to break the "look at the needle" habit. (My current plan is force myself to cover the dial when I'm thermaling.)

I'd suggest that audible variometers would best be introduced on day one of training, maybe even cover up the variometer dial until the student forms the habit of using the audio input.

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Wed, 29 May 2013 12:01:09 -0700, son_of_flubber wrote:

> I'd suggest that audible variometers would best be introduced on day one
> of training, maybe even cover up the variometer dial until the student
> forms the habit of using the audio input.
>
I was lucky there - when I was learning all our club 2 seaters had audio
varios fitted. Of the simple audio varios I've used, I prefer the Borgelt
B.40 and the Tasmin V1000. The latter is preferable because it
continuously displays an average as well as the instantaneous reading.
Both have been around for a while so used examples can be found. Both
make pleasant noises. The B.40 is now superseded by the B.400 but the
Tasmin is still in production AFAIK. Both can accept a 9v battery as
backup: because of this I fly with a B.40 as backup to my SDI C4.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Dan Marotta]

"kirk.stant" > wrote in message
...
<snip>

We can't get our club to agree that radios are a good thing! "Too
complicated, confuses the student, they can't learn to fly and talk at the
same time yadda yadda yadda".

Pathetic, really.

Kirk
66

Yeah, but I'll bet they can send a text message at 40 words/minute...

[Tony[_5_]]

On Wednesday, May 29, 2013 4:59:27 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> "kirk.stant" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> <snip>
>
>
>
> We can't get our club to agree that radios are a good thing! "Too
>
> complicated, confuses the student, they can't learn to fly and talk at the
>
> same time yadda yadda yadda".
>
>
>
> Pathetic, really.
>
>
>
> Kirk
>
> 66
>
>
>
> Yeah, but I'll bet they can send a text message at 40 words/minute...

I think the ideal is an audio Vario that can run on a standard 9V battery. No charging required, easy to replace. Our clubs Ka-6 has a Ball vario set up to run on a 9V. More modern options include the B-40 which I fly with in 2 of my gliders and enjoy the 9V option (one of those gliders has no other electrical system)

I generally like radios, but they aren't a show stopper. Inability to communicate has surely led to the loss of a few good soaring pilots over the years, and so has the ability to communicate.

[son_of_flubber]

One day soon a student will just show up with her sunglasses running XCSoar (HUD-edition). Printed on the bill of her baseball cap will be a solar-charged and disposable sensor pack that includes a barometric altimeter, HD GPS, and 3-D inertial probe. IR video overlay will highlight the thermal generating hot spots on the ground. 300 km tasks in SGS 2-33s will become the norm for first year pilots.

The steam gauges in the panel of the SGS 2-33 will keep the FAA happy.

[son_of_flubber]

So is one answer to my question,

"CFI-Gs largely hold sway over how we equip our trainers. Many CFI-Gs just want the student to pass the PTS ASAP, and basic skill with a audible variometer is not part of the PTS."

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 08:12:00 -0700, son_of_flubber wrote:

> "CFI-Gs largely hold sway over how we equip our trainers. Many CFI-Gs
> just want the student to pass the PTS ASAP, and basic skill with a
> audible variometer is not part of the PTS."
>
If a student isn't taught the elements of soaring during basic glider
training, why would anybody expect him to stick around for long? I should
think that flying a glider without having the necessary soaring skills
would get boring rather fast.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[son_of_flubber]

On Monday, June 3, 2013 4:55:12 PM UTC-4, Martin Gregorie wrote:

> If a student isn't taught the elements of soaring during basic glider
> training, why would anybody expect him to stick around for long? I should
> think that flying a glider without having the necessary soaring skills
> would get boring rather fast.

The theory seems to be that once a student passes the PTS, the successful pilots take the initiative to continue and self-direct their training until they retire entirely from flying. If pilot does not do that, it is perhaps desirable that they get bored and quit.

With the present training fleet, the majority of pilots in the USA learn to fly without an audible variometer and one might argue that that is the most basic skill because batteries sometimes go dead, and many gliders do not have audible variometers.

[Alan[_6_]]

In article > Martin Gregorie > writes:
>On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 08:12:00 -0700, son_of_flubber wrote:
>
>> "CFI-Gs largely hold sway over how we equip our trainers. Many CFI-Gs
>> just want the student to pass the PTS ASAP, and basic skill with a
>> audible variometer is not part of the PTS."
>>
>If a student isn't taught the elements of soaring during basic glider
>training, why would anybody expect him to stick around for long? I should
>think that flying a glider without having the necessary soaring skills
>would get boring rather fast.

But, why do you need an audio vario to do that?

I learned to soar in a pair of gliders with mechanical varios. One of
them did not have a TE probe. For a while, early on, I considered getting
one of the hang-gliding audio-only varios, but eventually abandoned that
idea.

Much later, when I was out in a higher performance glider, we decided to
turn the volume down on that annoying thing.

Alan

[son_of_flubber]

On Tuesday, June 4, 2013 3:36:36 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:

> Much later, when I was out in a higher performance glider, we decided to
> turn the volume down on that annoying thing.

Sounds like your training rooted you in the somewhat less safe habit of looking at the vario needle when you could be scanning for traffic.

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Tue, 04 Jun 2013 07:36:36 +0000, Alan wrote:

> In article > Martin Gregorie
> > writes:
>>On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 08:12:00 -0700, son_of_flubber wrote:
>>
>>> "CFI-Gs largely hold sway over how we equip our trainers. Many CFI-Gs
>>> just want the student to pass the PTS ASAP, and basic skill with a
>>> audible variometer is not part of the PTS."
>>>
>>If a student isn't taught the elements of soaring during basic glider
>>training, why would anybody expect him to stick around for long? I
>>should think that flying a glider without having the necessary soaring
>>skills would get boring rather fast.
>
> But, why do you need an audio vario to do that?
>
You don't, but nonetheless all my clubs gliders, both single and two
seat, now have both audio varios and FLARM fitted. The benefit of a good
audio vario is that you can find and utilise a thermal without needing to
look at the thing or taking your eyes off the other gliders in the
thermal. We're a big club, so our airspace gets busy sometimes and
multiply occupied thermals near the field are common, so both instruments
are decidedly worthwhile for their safety aspect.

What set me going was the comment that "Many CFI-Gs just want the student
to pass the PTS ASAP" remark: I'd say that IMO if a student is sent solo
without having being taught the basics of finding, centring and using
thermals safely and efficiently then his CFI-G hasn't done his job
properly.

And, before you ask, I think thermalling basics include being able to
join a multiply occupied thermal, climb in it without upsetting the other
occupants and leave it heading in the right direction without causing any
near misses or frights.



--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Mon, 03 Jun 2013 17:36:04 -0700, son_of_flubber wrote:

> On Monday, June 3, 2013 4:55:12 PM UTC-4, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>
>> If a student isn't taught the elements of soaring during basic glider
>> training, why would anybody expect him to stick around for long? I
>> should think that flying a glider without having the necessary soaring
>> skills would get boring rather fast.
>
> The theory seems to be that once a student passes the PTS, the
> successful pilots take the initiative to continue and self-direct their
> training until they retire entirely from flying. If pilot does not do
> that, it is perhaps desirable that they get bored and quit.
>
> With the present training fleet, the majority of pilots in the USA learn
> to fly without an audible variometer and one might argue that that is
> the most basic skill because batteries sometimes go dead, and many
> gliders do not have audible variometers.

As I mentioned previously, all gliders in our club fleet carry audio
varios and FLARM. Part of a student's training involves learning to put
the batteries in gliders at the start of the day and taking them out and
putting them on charge in the evening. How is that different from doing
the same with the 'chutes and being involved in hangar packing and
helping with the DI in the morning?

I should, perhaps add that we use a booking system for training in which
the minimum slot is half a day (one glider + instructor per two students
for the half day). An explicit part of the booked slot is being there to
help with getting the kit out and DIed if you have a morning booking and
being there to help pack the hangar in the evening after an afternoon
booking.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[son_of_flubber]

On Tuesday, June 4, 2013 5:48:07 PM UTC-4, Martin Gregorie wrote:

> As I mentioned previously, all gliders in our club fleet carry audio
>
> varios and FLARM. Part of a student's training involves learning to put
>
> the batteries in gliders at the start of the day and taking them out and
>
> putting them on charge in the evening. How is that different from doing
>
> the same with the 'chutes and being involved in hangar packing and
>
> helping with the DI in the morning?
>

Audio varios, FLARM, parachutes? In a club glider??

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, June 5, 2013 2:44:34 AM UTC+1, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 4, 2013 5:48:07 PM UTC-4, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>
>
>
> > As I mentioned previously, all gliders in our club fleet carry audio
>
> >
>
> > varios and FLARM. Part of a student's training involves learning to put
>
> >
>
> > the batteries in gliders at the start of the day and taking them out and
>
> >
>
> > putting them on charge in the evening. How is that different from doing
>
> >
>
> > the same with the 'chutes and being involved in hangar packing and
>
> >
>
> > helping with the DI in the morning?
>
> >
>
>
>
> Audio varios, FLARM, parachutes? In a club glider??

And radios. Why wouldn't you? We're training people to be cross country pilots.

Paul

[son_of_flubber]

On Wednesday, June 5, 2013 6:56:41 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 5, 2013 2:44:34 AM UTC+1, son_of_flubber wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, June 4, 2013 5:48:07 PM UTC-4, Martin Gregorie wrote:

> > > As I mentioned previously, all gliders in our club fleet carry audio
> > > the batteries in gliders at the start of the day and taking them out and
> > > putting them on charge in the evening. How is that different from doing
> > > the same with the 'chutes and being involved in hangar packing and
> > > helping with the DI in the morning?

> > Audio varios, FLARM, parachutes? In a club glider??

> And radios. Why wouldn't you? We're training people to be cross country pilots.
>

We've circled back to the original topic question that I posted. Is there really such a stark contrast between UK and USA pilots on this matter? I wonder if it springs from the government regulation of USA gliding by the FAA, whereas UK gliding is "self-regulated" by the BGA.

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, June 5, 2013 6:21:45 AM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 5, 2013 6:56:41 AM UTC-4, wrote:
>
> > On Wednesday, June 5, 2013 2:44:34 AM UTC+1, son_of_flubber wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > On Tuesday, June 4, 2013 5:48:07 PM UTC-4, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>
>
>
> > > > As I mentioned previously, all gliders in our club fleet carry audio
>
> > > > the batteries in gliders at the start of the day and taking them out and
>
> > > > putting them on charge in the evening. How is that different from doing
>
> > > > the same with the 'chutes and being involved in hangar packing and
>
> > > > helping with the DI in the morning?
>
>
>
> > > Audio varios, FLARM, parachutes? In a club glider??
>
>
>
> > And radios. Why wouldn't you? We're training people to be cross country pilots.
>
> >
>
>
>
> We've circled back to the original topic question that I posted. Is there really such a stark contrast between UK and USA pilots on this matter? I wonder if it springs from the government regulation of USA gliding by the FAA, whereas UK gliding is "self-regulated" by the BGA.

What does the FAA have to do with this all? I don't get it... Just like in the UK, most gliders in Germany and France are club-owned and very well equipped and yes, that included audio varios even back in the 80's when I flew there. Parachutes were mandatory for all seats even back then.
Herb

[son_of_flubber]

On Wednesday, June 5, 2013 9:53:04 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 5, 2013 6:21:45 AM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:

> > We've circled back to the original topic question that I posted. Is there really such a stark contrast between UK and USA pilots on this matter? I wonder if it springs from the government regulation of USA gliding by the FAA, whereas UK gliding is "self-regulated" by the BGA.
>
>
> What does the FAA have to do with this all? I don't get it... Just like in the UK, most gliders in Germany and France are club-owned and very well equipped and yes, that included audio varios even back in the 80's when I flew there. Parachutes were mandatory for all seats even back then.
>
> Herb

How do you explain the starkly contrasting attitudes (between UK/Germany/France and the USA) wrt equipping trainers? I'm grasping at straws when I raise the BGA vs. FAA/SSA/NTSB/AOPA regulatory approaches, but those approaches, and the regulations, and the equipment of trainers is quite different. Perhaps the regulatory environment affects our attitudes and behavior, especially when so many regulations are known or taken to be bogus. (For example the FARs wrt oxygen use are known to be based on wrong and out-of-date scientific knowledge.)

[[email protected]]

> How do you explain the starkly contrasting attitudes (between UK/Germany/France and the USA) wrt equipping trainers? I'm grasping at straws when I raise the BGA vs. FAA/SSA/NTSB/AOPA regulatory approaches, but those approaches, and the regulations, and the equipment of trainers is quite different.. Perhaps the regulatory environment affects our attitudes and behavior, especially when so many regulations are known or taken to be bogus. (For example the FARs wrt oxygen use are known to be based on wrong and out-of-date scientific knowledge.)



A quick look at the (UK BGA) regulations shows using a parachute is a recommended practice, as is the use of an audio vario. However, radio is not mandated, nor FLARM. But radio is very (>90%) common in the 100 or so gliders at my club. FLARM is present in >50% and increasing of cross country gliders, and 100% of the 11 club gliders. I think these things become expected - and as Martin pointed out, are safety issues in high traffic density airspace.



Paul

[Walt Connelly]

Here is something that you might be able to do to improve glider safety for everybody (yourself included).

Buy yourself a brand new variometer (you deserve it!). Give your old "perfectly good audible variometer" to a club, a commercial training operation, or one of those pocket-empty "first glider" owners that need to buy all of the "extras" that he/she needs. (Dang! that list is long: parachute, wing wheel, trailer repairs, new batteries etc., etc...).

Post the availability of your generous gift to RAS.

If somebody is clever, knowledgeable and motivated, they might set up a program with SSA that would get you a tax-deduction for your charitable gift of a valuable variometer and direct the vario to a waiting list of deserving clubs.

I recently learned to fly gliders at three otherwise excellent clubs. None of the trainers had audible variometers. Now I have to break the bad habit of frequently looking at the vario needle. Dumb. BTW, I have an audio variometer, but I don't have the skill to use it.

I learned to fly at a commercial operation in a L23 without an audible vario. I did an add on to a commercial rating and during my training rarely found lift...November and December in Florida lift is rare in the AM student training sessions.

When I did find myself encountering lift and trying to learn to thermal I did notice that I was spending too much time with my eyes inside watching the needle and not outside looking for traffic where they should be. Reading the posts here on Aviation Banter I realized the need for several accoutrements and purchased an Ascent Audio Vario and found it to be quite helpful. I also bought a good hand held radio and a parachute. I must stop reading this page as it has cost me 3000 bucks so far. Just kidding...good information and safety is what it's all about.

Walt Connelly