View Full Version : Spin training for US pilots?
Sean F (F2)
June 2nd 13, 03:53 PM
I did spin training in CA shortly after recieving my glider license. It has been very helpful for me as I have continued along with glider flight.
How many of you, US pilots, have had formal spin instruction (not one spin but half a day or more)?
Personally I am amazed that a US glider pilot can get their license without ever spinning in a glider. As I understand it, absolutely ZERO spins are required to complete you training and receive both your private or commercial rating.
That said, this great video (British I believe) was very similar to the spin instruction I received. I hope it is helpful to any pilots who have not yet had extensive spin/spin recovery training.
http://youtu.be/p8_mJmR2qlw
Just do this! It could save a life!
Sean
F2
jfitch
June 2nd 13, 05:17 PM
On Sunday, June 2, 2013 7:53:11 AM UTC-7, Sean F (F2) wrote:
> I did spin training in CA shortly after recieving my glider license. It has been very helpful for me as I have continued along with glider flight.
>
>
>
> How many of you, US pilots, have had formal spin instruction (not one spin but half a day or more)?
>
>
>
> Personally I am amazed that a US glider pilot can get their license without ever spinning in a glider. As I understand it, absolutely ZERO spins are required to complete you training and receive both your private or commercial rating.
>
>
>
> That said, this great video (British I believe) was very similar to the spin instruction I received. I hope it is helpful to any pilots who have not yet had extensive spin/spin recovery training.
>
>
>
> http://youtu.be/p8_mJmR2qlw
>
>
>
> Just do this! It could save a life!
>
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>
> Sean
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> F2
I did spin training before I got my private. Age 14, flying a 2-32. That thing spins really well!
I try a few spin departures every couple of flights. And certainly on the first flight in a new glider (altitude permitting or course). How else do you know what they feel like? Better to find out at 3000 AGL than 300....
Bill D
June 2nd 13, 05:20 PM
On Sunday, June 2, 2013 8:53:11 AM UTC-6, Sean F (F2) wrote:
> I did spin training in CA shortly after recieving my glider license. It has been very helpful for me as I have continued along with glider flight.
>
>
>
> How many of you, US pilots, have had formal spin instruction (not one spin but half a day or more)?
>
>
>
> Personally I am amazed that a US glider pilot can get their license without ever spinning in a glider. As I understand it, absolutely ZERO spins are required to complete you training and receive both your private or commercial rating.
>
>
>
> That said, this great video (British I believe) was very similar to the spin instruction I received. I hope it is helpful to any pilots who have not yet had extensive spin/spin recovery training.
>
>
>
> http://youtu.be/p8_mJmR2qlw
>
>
>
> Just do this! It could save a life!
>
>
>
> Sean
>
> F2
I think only a fool would argue spin training isn't a good idea. Whether it is "necessary" is a slightly different issue.
A view in the US is risks associated with spin training are about the same as the risks avoided so there is little to be gained one way or the other. Another is teaching stall/spin avoidance is more important and, as a practical matter, more useful than teaching spin recovery. That's why Part 61 doesn't require them except for flight instructors.
In support of that view, most German gliders built in the last 25 years are quite spin resistant - so much so it is difficult to get them to spin unless the CG is quite far aft. Probably this is why accident reports show a declining number of spin accidents (We've just figured out other ways to kill ourselves.)
The exception is many gliders from Eastern Europe which tend to be more "spinnable". I wouldn't suggest anyone fly these gliders without complete spin training.
I can't leave this subject without mentioning something I've noticed reading accident report narratives. Witness descriptions of "spin-in's" seem to leave open the possibility what they really saw was a spiral dive that developed from an incipient spin. The typical wording used by witnesses was something like, "The glider entered a diving turn which continued to impact." That's not how I would describe a spin but possibly what a spiral dive would look like. The unfortunate pilot seems to have inappropriately applied anti-spin controls when he could have survived if spiral dive recovery technique had been used.
The takehome for me is to make absolutely sure students know the difference between spins and spiral dives and how to recover from each.
On Sunday, June 2, 2013 10:53:11 AM UTC-4, Sean F (F2) wrote:
> I did spin training in CA shortly after recieving my glider license. It has been very helpful for me as I have continued along with glider flight. How many of you, US pilots, have had formal spin instruction (not one spin but half a day or more)? Personally I am amazed that a US glider pilot can get their license without ever spinning in a glider. As I understand it, absolutely ZERO spins are required to complete you training and receive both your private or commercial rating. That said, this great video (British I believe) was very similar to the spin instruction I received. I hope it is helpful to any pilots who have not yet had extensive spin/spin recovery training. http://youtu.be/p8_mJmR2qlw Just do this! It could save a life! Sean F2
Required prior to solo at our operation.
UH
Ralph Jones[_3_]
June 2nd 13, 11:11 PM
>
>Personally I am amazed that a US glider pilot can get their license without ever spinning in a glider.
Even more amazing: It is possible to become an airline captain without
ever having had an airplane upside down...
jfitch
June 3rd 13, 01:22 AM
On Sunday, June 2, 2013 9:20:45 AM UTC-7, Bill D wrote:
> On Sunday, June 2, 2013 8:53:11 AM UTC-6, Sean F (F2) wrote:
>
> > I did spin training in CA shortly after recieving my glider license. It has been very helpful for me as I have continued along with glider flight..
>
> >
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> >
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> > How many of you, US pilots, have had formal spin instruction (not one spin but half a day or more)?
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> >
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> >
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> > Personally I am amazed that a US glider pilot can get their license without ever spinning in a glider. As I understand it, absolutely ZERO spins are required to complete you training and receive both your private or commercial rating.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > That said, this great video (British I believe) was very similar to the spin instruction I received. I hope it is helpful to any pilots who have not yet had extensive spin/spin recovery training.
>
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> > http://youtu.be/p8_mJmR2qlw
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> > Just do this! It could save a life!
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> > Sean
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> > F2
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> I think only a fool would argue spin training isn't a good idea. Whether it is "necessary" is a slightly different issue.
>
>
>
> A view in the US is risks associated with spin training are about the same as the risks avoided so there is little to be gained one way or the other.. Another is teaching stall/spin avoidance is more important and, as a practical matter, more useful than teaching spin recovery. That's why Part 61 doesn't require them except for flight instructors.
>
>
>
> In support of that view, most German gliders built in the last 25 years are quite spin resistant - so much so it is difficult to get them to spin unless the CG is quite far aft. Probably this is why accident reports show a declining number of spin accidents (We've just figured out other ways to kill ourselves.)
>
>
>
> The exception is many gliders from Eastern Europe which tend to be more "spinnable". I wouldn't suggest anyone fly these gliders without complete spin training.
>
>
>
> I can't leave this subject without mentioning something I've noticed reading accident report narratives. Witness descriptions of "spin-in's" seem to leave open the possibility what they really saw was a spiral dive that developed from an incipient spin. The typical wording used by witnesses was something like, "The glider entered a diving turn which continued to impact.." That's not how I would describe a spin but possibly what a spiral dive would look like. The unfortunate pilot seems to have inappropriately applied anti-spin controls when he could have survived if spiral dive recovery technique had been used.
>
>
>
> The takehome for me is to make absolutely sure students know the difference between spins and spiral dives and how to recover from each.
I can't agree with the idea that German gliders don't spin. At least the ones I am most familiar with (ash26e, duo discus, ask21) will spin. At least you will get a nice spin departure, maybe it turns into a spiral dive quickly but on the turn to final that is only of academic interest.
If you are a serious glider pilot, why would you NOT want the training? If it is too scary then you certainly shouldn't be flying where I fly....
Bill D
June 3rd 13, 02:04 AM
On Sunday, June 2, 2013 6:22:48 PM UTC-6, jfitch wrote:
> On Sunday, June 2, 2013 9:20:45 AM UTC-7, Bill D wrote:
>
> > On Sunday, June 2, 2013 8:53:11 AM UTC-6, Sean F (F2) wrote:
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> >
>
> > > I did spin training in CA shortly after recieving my glider license. It has been very helpful for me as I have continued along with glider flight.
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> > > How many of you, US pilots, have had formal spin instruction (not one spin but half a day or more)?
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> > > Personally I am amazed that a US glider pilot can get their license without ever spinning in a glider. As I understand it, absolutely ZERO spins are required to complete you training and receive both your private or commercial rating.
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> > >
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> > > That said, this great video (British I believe) was very similar to the spin instruction I received. I hope it is helpful to any pilots who have not yet had extensive spin/spin recovery training.
>
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> > > http://youtu.be/p8_mJmR2qlw
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> > > Just do this! It could save a life!
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> > > Sean
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> > > F2
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> > I think only a fool would argue spin training isn't a good idea. Whether it is "necessary" is a slightly different issue.
>
> >
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> >
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> >
>
> > A view in the US is risks associated with spin training are about the same as the risks avoided so there is little to be gained one way or the other. Another is teaching stall/spin avoidance is more important and, as a practical matter, more useful than teaching spin recovery. That's why Part 61 doesn't require them except for flight instructors.
>
> >
>
> >
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> >
>
> > In support of that view, most German gliders built in the last 25 years are quite spin resistant - so much so it is difficult to get them to spin unless the CG is quite far aft. Probably this is why accident reports show a declining number of spin accidents (We've just figured out other ways to kill ourselves.)
>
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> > The exception is many gliders from Eastern Europe which tend to be more "spinnable". I wouldn't suggest anyone fly these gliders without complete spin training.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I can't leave this subject without mentioning something I've noticed reading accident report narratives. Witness descriptions of "spin-in's" seem to leave open the possibility what they really saw was a spiral dive that developed from an incipient spin. The typical wording used by witnesses was something like, "The glider entered a diving turn which continued to impact." That's not how I would describe a spin but possibly what a spiral dive would look like. The unfortunate pilot seems to have inappropriately applied anti-spin controls when he could have survived if spiral dive recovery technique had been used.
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> > The takehome for me is to make absolutely sure students know the difference between spins and spiral dives and how to recover from each.
>
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>
> I can't agree with the idea that German gliders don't spin. At least the ones I am most familiar with (ash26e, duo discus, ask21) will spin. At least you will get a nice spin departure, maybe it turns into a spiral dive quickly but on the turn to final that is only of academic interest.
>
>
>
> If you are a serious glider pilot, why would you NOT want the training? If it is too scary then you certainly shouldn't be flying where I fly....
I said "spin resistant" not that they wouldn't spin.
jfitch
June 3rd 13, 05:24 AM
On Sunday, June 2, 2013 6:04:58 PM UTC-7, Bill D wrote:
> On Sunday, June 2, 2013 6:22:48 PM UTC-6, jfitch wrote:
>
> > On Sunday, June 2, 2013 9:20:45 AM UTC-7, Bill D wrote:
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> >
>
> > > On Sunday, June 2, 2013 8:53:11 AM UTC-6, Sean F (F2) wrote:
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> >
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> > >
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> > > > I did spin training in CA shortly after recieving my glider license.. It has been very helpful for me as I have continued along with glider flight.
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> > > > How many of you, US pilots, have had formal spin instruction (not one spin but half a day or more)?
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> > > > Personally I am amazed that a US glider pilot can get their license without ever spinning in a glider. As I understand it, absolutely ZERO spins are required to complete you training and receive both your private or commercial rating.
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> > > > That said, this great video (British I believe) was very similar to the spin instruction I received. I hope it is helpful to any pilots who have not yet had extensive spin/spin recovery training.
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> > > > http://youtu.be/p8_mJmR2qlw
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> > > > Just do this! It could save a life!
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> > > I think only a fool would argue spin training isn't a good idea. Whether it is "necessary" is a slightly different issue.
>
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> > > A view in the US is risks associated with spin training are about the same as the risks avoided so there is little to be gained one way or the other. Another is teaching stall/spin avoidance is more important and, as a practical matter, more useful than teaching spin recovery. That's why Part 61 doesn't require them except for flight instructors.
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> > > In support of that view, most German gliders built in the last 25 years are quite spin resistant - so much so it is difficult to get them to spin unless the CG is quite far aft. Probably this is why accident reports show a declining number of spin accidents (We've just figured out other ways to kill ourselves.)
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> > > The exception is many gliders from Eastern Europe which tend to be more "spinnable". I wouldn't suggest anyone fly these gliders without complete spin training.
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> > > I can't leave this subject without mentioning something I've noticed reading accident report narratives. Witness descriptions of "spin-in's" seem to leave open the possibility what they really saw was a spiral dive that developed from an incipient spin. The typical wording used by witnesses was something like, "The glider entered a diving turn which continued to impact." That's not how I would describe a spin but possibly what a spiral dive would look like. The unfortunate pilot seems to have inappropriately applied anti-spin controls when he could have survived if spiral dive recovery technique had been used.
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> > > The takehome for me is to make absolutely sure students know the difference between spins and spiral dives and how to recover from each.
>
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> >
>
> > I can't agree with the idea that German gliders don't spin. At least the ones I am most familiar with (ash26e, duo discus, ask21) will spin. At least you will get a nice spin departure, maybe it turns into a spiral dive quickly but on the turn to final that is only of academic interest.
>
> >
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> >
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> >
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> > If you are a serious glider pilot, why would you NOT want the training? If it is too scary then you certainly shouldn't be flying where I fly....
>
>
>
> I said "spin resistant" not that they wouldn't spin.
I'm not sure what terms to use. I haven't noticed much "resistance" - get too slow in a turn and the wing drops into a spin departure. Not much different than the 2-32 or the eastern European gliders I have flown. They may be more resistant to a fully developed spin, but where this is typically a problem, 1/2 turn and you meet the trees.
Now a 2-33, that is somewhat "spin resistant" - but you can still get it to start!
One problem for training, its getting harder to find a glider that is certificated for intentional spins.
Peter Higgs
June 3rd 13, 01:05 PM
Hi, I think there are three different types of spin entry...
1. Accidental Spin Entry. (Hope it never happens.)
2. Simulated Accidental Spin Entry (as in Instructed Training.)
3. Deliberate Spin Entry, for aerobatic contests.
In the first cases the cause creeps up on you, maybe unnoticed... You may
not be looking at the yaw string of ASI at the right time, or perhaps you
fly into adverse atmospheric conditions.
In the aerobatic case the entry is more deliberate, and quick. With points
awarded for the neatness of the manoeuvre and the recovery.
I remember one (aerobatic trained) instructor trying to flick roll my
benign aircraft into an un-usual attitude, but I don't think he managed it,
as the recovery was a bit too easy.
Dan Marotta
June 3rd 13, 02:36 PM
Those of us who received our flight training in the US Air Force got plenty
of spin training.
During my military career, I became well acquainted with all three of the
types mentioned below. ...And they actually paid me a premium for having so
much fun!
Dan
"Peter Higgs" > wrote in message
...
> Hi, I think there are three different types of spin entry...
>
> 1. Accidental Spin Entry. (Hope it never happens.)
> 2. Simulated Accidental Spin Entry (as in Instructed Training.)
> 3. Deliberate Spin Entry, for aerobatic contests.
>
> In the first cases the cause creeps up on you, maybe unnoticed... You may
> not be looking at the yaw string of ASI at the right time, or perhaps you
> fly into adverse atmospheric conditions.
>
> In the aerobatic case the entry is more deliberate, and quick. With
> points
> awarded for the neatness of the manoeuvre and the recovery.
>
> I remember one (aerobatic trained) instructor trying to flick roll my
> benign aircraft into an un-usual attitude, but I don't think he managed
> it,
> as the recovery was a bit too easy.
>
Sean Franke
June 4th 13, 01:46 PM
On Sunday, June 2, 2013 9:24:23 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> On Sunday, June 2, 2013 6:04:58 PM UTC-7, Bill D wrote:
>
> > On Sunday, June 2, 2013 6:22:48 PM UTC-6, jfitch wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > On Sunday, June 2, 2013 9:20:45 AM UTC-7, Bill D wrote:
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> > > > On Sunday, June 2, 2013 8:53:11 AM UTC-6, Sean F (F2) wrote:
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> > > > > I did spin training in CA shortly after recieving my glider license. It has been very helpful for me as I have continued along with glider flight.
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> > > > > How many of you, US pilots, have had formal spin instruction (not one spin but half a day or more)?
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> > > > > Personally I am amazed that a US glider pilot can get their license without ever spinning in a glider. As I understand it, absolutely ZERO spins are required to complete you training and receive both your private or commercial rating.
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> > > > > That said, this great video (British I believe) was very similar to the spin instruction I received. I hope it is helpful to any pilots who have not yet had extensive spin/spin recovery training.
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> > > > > http://youtu.be/p8_mJmR2qlw
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> > > > I think only a fool would argue spin training isn't a good idea. Whether it is "necessary" is a slightly different issue.
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> > > > A view in the US is risks associated with spin training are about the same as the risks avoided so there is little to be gained one way or the other. Another is teaching stall/spin avoidance is more important and, as a practical matter, more useful than teaching spin recovery. That's why Part 61 doesn't require them except for flight instructors.
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> > > > In support of that view, most German gliders built in the last 25 years are quite spin resistant - so much so it is difficult to get them to spin unless the CG is quite far aft. Probably this is why accident reports show a declining number of spin accidents (We've just figured out other ways to kill ourselves.)
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> > > > The exception is many gliders from Eastern Europe which tend to be more "spinnable". I wouldn't suggest anyone fly these gliders without complete spin training.
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> > > > I can't leave this subject without mentioning something I've noticed reading accident report narratives. Witness descriptions of "spin-in's" seem to leave open the possibility what they really saw was a spiral dive that developed from an incipient spin. The typical wording used by witnesses was something like, "The glider entered a diving turn which continued to impact." That's not how I would describe a spin but possibly what a spiral dive would look like. The unfortunate pilot seems to have inappropriately applied anti-spin controls when he could have survived if spiral dive recovery technique had been used.
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> > > I can't agree with the idea that German gliders don't spin. At least the ones I am most familiar with (ash26e, duo discus, ask21) will spin. At least you will get a nice spin departure, maybe it turns into a spiral dive quickly but on the turn to final that is only of academic interest.
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> > > If you are a serious glider pilot, why would you NOT want the training? If it is too scary then you certainly shouldn't be flying where I fly.....
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> I'm not sure what terms to use. I haven't noticed much "resistance" - get too slow in a turn and the wing drops into a spin departure. Not much different than the 2-32 or the eastern European gliders I have flown. They may be more resistant to a fully developed spin, but where this is typically a problem, 1/2 turn and you meet the trees.
>
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> Now a 2-33, that is somewhat "spin resistant" - but you can still get it to start!
>
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> One problem for training, its getting harder to find a glider that is certificated for intentional spins.
I also thought a 2-33 didn't like to spin until seeing this video:
http://www.flixxy.com/10-year-old-lillymae-spins-the-sailplane.htm
Sean Franke
BobW
June 4th 13, 02:40 PM
On 6/4/2013 6:46 AM, Sean Franke wrote:
(Some major snips for continuity's sake...)
>>>>>> I did spin training in CA shortly after receiving my glider
>>>>>> license. It has been very helpful for me as I have continued
>>>>>> along with glider flight.
>>>>>> ...this great video (British I believe) was very similar
>>>>>> to the spin instruction I received. I hope it is helpful to any
>>>>>> pilots who have not yet had extensive spin/spin recovery
>>>>>> training.
>>>>>> http://youtu.be/p8_mJmR2qlw
>>
>>>>>> Just do this! It could save a life!
>>
>>>>> A view in the US is risks associated with spin training are about
>>>>> the same as the risks avoided so there is little to be gained one
>>>>> way or the other. Another is teaching stall/spin avoidance is more
>>>>> important and, as a practical matter, more useful than teaching
>>>>> spin recovery. That's why Part 61 doesn't require them except for
>>>>> flight instructors.
>>
>>>>> In support of that view, most German gliders built in the last 25
>>>>> years are quite spin resistant...(We've
>>>>> just figured out other ways to kill ourselves.)
>>
>>>>> The exception is many gliders from Eastern Europe which tend to be
>>>>> more "spinnable"...
>>
>>>> I can't agree with the idea that German gliders don't spin. At least
>>>> the ones I am most familiar with (ash26e, duo discus, ask21) will
>>>> spin. At least you will get a nice spin departure, maybe it turns
>>>> into a spiral dive quickly but on the turn to final that is only of
>>>> academic interest.
>>
>>> I said "spin resistant" not that they wouldn't spin.
>>
>> I'm not sure what terms to use. I haven't noticed much "resistance" - get
>> too slow in a turn and the wing drops into a spin departure. Not much
>> different than the 2-32 or the eastern European gliders I have flown.
>> They may be more resistant to a fully developed spin, but where this is
>> typically a problem, 1/2 turn and you meet the trees.
>>
>> Now a 2-33, that is somewhat "spin resistant" - but you can still get it
>> to start!
>>
>> One problem for training, its getting harder to find a glider that is
>> certificated for intentional spins.
>
> I also thought a 2-33 didn't like to spin until seeing this video:
>
> http://www.flixxy.com/10-year-old-lillymae-spins-the-sailplane.htm
>
> Sean Franke
>
When unintentional departures from controlled flight - whether leading to a
"fully developed spin" or to "merely a fully-controllable spiral dive" -
happen with "too thin" margins, they're always seriously bad news to Joe
Pilot. (Kids, don't DO this, even if you're a trained professional!)
Personally, I find the mindsets I've encountered in fellow pilots (soaring and
power) regarding spins: often worrisome; always interesting; almost
universally lacking in fundamental understanding of the aerodynamic
uncertainties inherent to "departures from controlled flight" (typically
called "spin" for short).
To make a sweeping general statement which has long colored my own approach to
PIC-ing, if Joe Pilot doesn't truly believe "departure from controlled
flight/spinning" is "uncontrolled flight" Joe Pilot is doing him or herself a
serious disservice if living to fly another flight is personally important.
True whether margins are thin or not...
To make another sweeping general statement, I doubt there's an airframe around
that can't be induced into "uncontrolled flight" from "more or less normal"
control activities and "normal flight energies." Fly accordionly...
Considering typical sailplane flight energies, if you're MUST hit something,
hit it horizontally...in the U.S. this 2013 soaring season, "happily" we've
several pilots still around who can attest to this being better than the
"sudden stoppage" alternative.
End of preachification...
Bob W.
P.S. No intention to be quibbling with/"picking at" any of the contributors to
this - topically important!!! - thread. I fundamentally agree with all of them.
Craig R.
June 4th 13, 03:41 PM
> I also thought a 2-33 didn't like to spin until seeing this video:
>
>
>
> http://www.flixxy.com/10-year-old-lillymae-spins-the-sailplane.htm
>
>
>
> Sean Franke
They will spin to some extent, but the CG has got to be way back. With 2 adults you're adding lead to the tail. Not something I'm going to do in a 2-33. I know those that have.
Jim White[_3_]
June 4th 13, 03:42 PM
Can some one point me at a single seat glider that won't spin? If you are
going to fly XC in anything other than a K21 surely knowing how to recover
from a spin and practising it is fundamentally important.
I always spin my 27 several times in several different ways each season so
that I am familar with its spin characteristics and recovery. It also
reminds me how dangerous uncontrolled flight near the ground would be.
Jim
jfitch
June 4th 13, 04:13 PM
On Tuesday, June 4, 2013 7:42:13 AM UTC-7, Jim White wrote:
> Can some one point me at a single seat glider that won't spin? If you are
>
> going to fly XC in anything other than a K21 surely knowing how to recover
>
> from a spin and practising it is fundamentally important.
>
>
>
> I always spin my 27 several times in several different ways each season so
>
> that I am familar with its spin characteristics and recovery. It also
>
> reminds me how dangerous uncontrolled flight near the ground would be.
>
>
>
> Jim
Are intentional spins allowed on the placard of a 27? They aren't on my 26.....
Still, I practice spin departures, sometimes unintentionally in bumpy thermals.
Now to the original point, is there a single pilot who has had spin training who regrets the experience, and would not take it if he/she got a do-over? Anyone?
John Carlyle
June 4th 13, 04:50 PM
On Tuesday, June 4, 2013 11:13:03 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> Are intentional spins allowed on the placard of a 27? They aren't on my 26.....
>
> Still, I practice spin departures, sometimes unintentionally in bumpy thermals.
>
> Now to the original point, is there a single pilot who has had spin training who regrets the experience, and would not take it if he/she got a do-over? Anyone?
I received spin training and thought it very valuable. I came away permanently convinced that I don't ever want a spin to happen when I'm low! I think every pilot should experience a true spin at altitude.
My LS8 isn't certificated to perform intentional spins, so I practice spin departures occasionally. What I wonder is what people find the most valuable - practicing the control movements to recover from an incipient spin, or experiencing the feeling as the plane gets close to departing into a spin.
My vote is for the feeling. The control movements are pretty much standard for all aircraft, but each airframe "talks" to the pilot differently. I think it's vital to know just how each plane you fly communicates.
-John, Q3
Martin Eiler[_3_]
June 4th 13, 04:51 PM
At 15:13 04 June 2013, jfitch wrote:
>Now to the original point, is there a single pilot who has had spin
>training who regrets the experience, and would not take it if he/she got
a
>do-over? Anyone?
>
Recently we saw a pilot upgrade in performance to an ASW20.
In spite of at least 3 instructors telling him he needed to get spin
training before flying that glider. The new owner has chosen to ignore
their recommendations.
The FAA does not require spin training except for instructors. Maybe some
day the insurance companies will look at the spin accident statistics and
decide to make it a mandatory part of the insurance sign off. It is the
insurance companies that hold more sway on pilot requirements than the FAA.
Insurance policies on corporate aircraft often require not only recurrent
training and even a second pilot. Then again that is to protect the huge
monetary aircraft investment rather than the pilot himself.
On Tuesday, June 4, 2013 8:13:03 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> Are intentional spins allowed on the placard of a 27? They aren't on my 26.....
> Now to the original point, is there a single pilot who has had spin training who regrets the experience, and would not take it if he/she got a do-over? Anyone?
Yes, spins are permitted except in Landing Flap and appear in the Aircraft Flight Manual for the ASW-27, as do Loops, Lazy Eights, Chandelles and Stall Turns. I practice spins, spin entries and recovery pretty much every season and perform the other maneuvers regularly. I am at a loss to understand the idea presented earlier that spin practice adds as as much risk as benefit - a quick look at the NTSB accident summaries undercuts this idea. I know of no one who has been in a fatal spin training accident, while on the other hand...
IMO, stalls, spins, unusual attitudes and aerobatics are all important and useful pilot skills. If you've never been upside down in a glider it's not realistic to believe that you'll know instinctively what to do if you end up that way unexpectedly, close to terrain and under stress. Hoping you can avoid it is not a great strategy.
9B
Vaughn
June 4th 13, 08:45 PM
On 6/4/2013 11:50 AM, John Carlyle wrote:
> I received spin training and thought it very valuable.
>I came away permanently convinced that I don't ever want a spin to
happen when I'm low!
That was my main takeaway from my own pre-solo spin training. (spinning
wasn't required, I insisted on it) I was astounded at the altitude loss
and convinced I wouldn't survive any spin in the pattern.
jfitch
June 4th 13, 08:59 PM
On Tuesday, June 4, 2013 9:58:23 AM UTC-7, wrote:
>
> Yes, spins are permitted except in Landing Flap and appear in the Aircraft Flight Manual for the ASW-27, as do Loops, Lazy Eights, Chandelles and Stall Turns. I practice spins, spin entries and recovery pretty much every season and perform the other maneuvers regularly. I am at a loss to understand the idea presented earlier that spin practice adds as as much risk as benefit - a quick look at the NTSB accident summaries undercuts this idea. I know of no one who has been in a fatal spin training accident, while on the other hand...
>
Hmmm, wonder why in the 27 but not the 26. What about the 29 and 31, anybody know?
I, too, find the idea that spin training is as dangerous as accidental (untrained!) spins unbelievable. Is there any shred of data to back that supposition?
Bill D
June 4th 13, 10:36 PM
On Tuesday, June 4, 2013 1:59:01 PM UTC-6, jfitch wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 4, 2013 9:58:23 AM UTC-7, wrote:
>
>
>
> >
>
> > Yes, spins are permitted except in Landing Flap and appear in the Aircraft Flight Manual for the ASW-27, as do Loops, Lazy Eights, Chandelles and Stall Turns. I practice spins, spin entries and recovery pretty much every season and perform the other maneuvers regularly. I am at a loss to understand the idea presented earlier that spin practice adds as as much risk as benefit - a quick look at the NTSB accident summaries undercuts this idea. I know of no one who has been in a fatal spin training accident, while on the other hand...
>
> >
>
> Hmmm, wonder why in the 27 but not the 26. What about the 29 and 31, anybody know?
>
>
>
> I, too, find the idea that spin training is as dangerous as accidental (untrained!) spins unbelievable. Is there any shred of data to back that supposition?
The official view (not mine) is accidental spins are rare but mandating spin training would subject everyone to them making the overall risk comparable. There have been spin training accidents in the UK though not recently in the US as far as I know.
http://rdd.me/a5prkekd
I can't find a reference but I recall several papers showing those countries who mandated spin training actually had more spin accidents.
In recent years, there have been few cases of fully developed spins continuing through thousands of feet of altitude all the way to impact. This is what people imagine but it's very rare.
A far more common "spin accident" sees the aircraft completing less than one turn before impact. These are probably an incipient spin immediately transitioning to a spiral dive. In this case, the classic spin recovery technique taught at altitude is of little use and may even be dangerous. Far more useful is recognizing an impending spin departure and correcting it before it gets out of hand.
Boise Pilot
June 4th 13, 11:09 PM
On Tuesday, June 4, 2013 1:59:01 PM UTC-6, jfitch wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 4, 2013 9:58:23 AM UTC-7, wrote:
>
>
>
> >
>
> > Yes, spins are permitted except in Landing Flap and appear in the Aircraft Flight Manual for the ASW-27, as do Loops, Lazy Eights, Chandelles and Stall Turns. I practice spins, spin entries and recovery pretty much every season and perform the other maneuvers regularly. I am at a loss to understand the idea presented earlier that spin practice adds as as much risk as benefit - a quick look at the NTSB accident summaries undercuts this idea. I know of no one who has been in a fatal spin training accident, while on the other hand...
>
> >Can not answer about the 31, the 29, normal recovery in all flap settings except the 'landing-flap' which is "Strictly Prohibited" flaps need to be reduced immediately. Water ballast has no noticeable influence except for increased speeds. There is a note,Spins can, based on CG and aileron position turn into spiral dive. I had extensive spin training in a 2-32 prior to solo and before my commercial check did 19 various rotation and heading recovering spins in one flight in a L-13 with an instructor who loved spinning. Aerobatics are not authorized in the 29..
>
> Hmmm, wonder why in the 27 but not the 26. What about the 29 and 31, anybody know?
>
>
>
> I, too, find the idea that spin training is as dangerous as accidental (untrained!) spins unbelievable. Is there any shred of data to back that supposition?
son_of_flubber
June 5th 13, 03:13 AM
Spin training in wave in a Blanik L-23 has got to be the most fun (and most productive hour of training) that I have ever had in a glider.
Bart[_4_]
June 5th 13, 05:42 AM
On Jun 4, 6:40*am, BobW > wrote:
> Personally, I find the mindsets I've encountered in fellow pilots (soaring and
> power) regarding spins: often worrisome; always interesting; almost
> universally lacking in fundamental understanding of the aerodynamic
> uncertainties inherent to "departures from controlled flight" (typically
> called "spin" for short).
>
> To make a sweeping general statement which has long colored my own approach to
> PIC-ing, if Joe Pilot doesn't truly believe "departure from controlled
> flight/spinning" is "uncontrolled flight" Joe Pilot is doing him or herself a
> serious disservice if living to fly another flight is personally important.
"Can some one point me at a single seat glider that won't spin?"
Rutan Solitaire? :-)
Of course there are quite a few that are placarded against deliberate spins..
Always loved deliberately spinning the L-13's the club used to have. The L-23 isn't quite as much fun in a spin. Never managed to get a real spin out if the Twin Astir RG or Acro but the DG-505 does it nicely. We used to have an early Standard Jantar which would drop a wing and spin pretty steep and fast (by glider standards) with little warning. My ASW-15B really has to be provoked to enter a spin.
Regardless of what the FAA found regarding the risk/benefit relationship of spin training in general aviation I would think that with gliders the fact that we spend so much time flying relatively close to stall speed would mean that spin training would have a higher benefit for us than light aeroplane pilots.
Changes made in the training syllabus in Canada regarding spins since I started flying in 1998 are that there is much more emphasis on recognizing stall/spin warning signs and correctly responding to them. The actual full blooded spins are now done with a slow, shallow banked turn combined with too much bottom rudder as the entry. When I started flying we used to enter the spin from a straight ahead sharp stall combined with quick full rudder deflection.
On Tuesday, June 4, 2013 2:36:42 PM UTC-7, Bill D wrote:
The official view (not mine) is accidental spins are rare but mandating spin training would subject everyone to them making the overall risk comparable. There have been spin training accidents in the UK though not recently in the US as far as I know.
....
A far more common "spin accident" sees the aircraft completing less than one turn before impact. These are probably an incipient spin immediately transitioning to a spiral dive. In this case, the classic spin recovery technique taught at altitude is of little use and may even be dangerous.
We should be clear to distinguish between gliders and GA more broadly. I would argue that gliders have a higher risk of accidental spins and lower risk associated with properly executed practice. Certainly it's not a good idea to practice spins at close to pattern altitude or in an aircraft with unpredictable spin characteristics, without a parachute, without proper instruction, etc.
It should go without saying that if you are going to practice spins you will benefit more from practicing the kinds of entries that are likely to catch you by surprise (low bank angle, over-ruddered turns). I disagree with the idea that being familiar with how a glider behaves in a spin entry at a safe altitude is somehow worse for a pilot than having to figure it out for the first time at 300'.
If you can find the official study, I'd love to see it. I'm wondering whether they simply assume that most CFIs are simply not competent enough pilots to be trusted not to do really dumb things should spin training be mandated or that a single fatality from mandated spin training is worse from a liability perspective than many more from accidental stall/spins.
Mandated or not I think it's a good idea to get familiar with what happens to your glider under the circumstances that kill more glider pilots than any other phase of flight.
9B
Having learned to fly in the "good ol days" when power pilots actually
had to demonstrate a full stall as opposed to recognizing an eminent
stall, I am biased on this topic.
I have been flying aerobatics for most of my life and have taken
dozens of fellow pilots up for some adventure. When my fellow pilots
take control and attempt a full stall or spin, the vast majority
freeze up mentally and/or physically upon entering the maneuver. They
are not used to the feelings, the control feel, the sight picture, and
the sounds, or lack there of. It is my opinion that this is a major
factor in most of our "falling out of the sky" accidents. I agree
that because we fly so close to the bottom end of the flight envelop
we should be experts at recognizing and taking control of "departures
from controlled flight." It also takes regular practice. At the
least, I vote for our biennual fight reviews to include entering and
recovering from full stalls and full spins (providing the aircraft is
appropriate for this activity).
Guy Acheson "DDS"
On Tuesday, June 4, 2013 9:51:31 AM UTC-6, Martin Eiler wrote:
>
> Recently we saw a pilot upgrade in performance to an ASW20.
>
> In spite of at least 3 instructors telling him he needed to get spin
>
> training before flying that glider. The new owner has chosen to ignore
>
> their recommendations.
>
Actually, If a pilot were to blow off spin training, A 20 is a good ship to own because it does not spin readily. More likely (Depending on the CG) it will enter into a steep spiral. The thing we need to remember is that it is not necessarily spins that cause accidents, It is the lack of recognition that does. This was addressed in the video that Sean posted. The goal of training should be to recognize and avoid spins in the first place and not just on spin recovery.
On Sunday, June 2, 2013 4:11:56 PM UTC-6, Ralph Jones wrote:
>
> Even more amazing: It is possible to become an airline captain without
>
> ever having had an airplane upside down...
What does having an airplane upside down have to do with airline captains? I think you are confusing machizmo with relevance. A more appropriate statement would be "By the time a pilot becomes a Captain he/she has had plenty of upset and unusual attitude recovery training."
On Wednesday, June 5, 2013 4:30:34 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> "Can some one point me at a single seat glider that won't spin?"
>
>
>
> Rutan Solitaire? :-)
>
>
>
> Of course there are quite a few that are placarded against deliberate spins.
>
>
>
> Always loved deliberately spinning the L-13's the club used to have. The L-23 isn't quite as much fun in a spin. Never managed to get a real spin out if the Twin Astir RG or Acro but the DG-505 does it nicely. We used to have an early Standard Jantar which would drop a wing and spin pretty steep and fast (by glider standards) with little warning. My ASW-15B really has to be provoked to enter a spin.
>
>
>
> Regardless of what the FAA found regarding the risk/benefit relationship of spin training in general aviation I would think that with gliders the fact that we spend so much time flying relatively close to stall speed would mean that spin training would have a higher benefit for us than light aeroplane pilots.
>
>
>
> Changes made in the training syllabus in Canada regarding spins since I started flying in 1998 are that there is much more emphasis on recognizing stall/spin warning signs and correctly responding to them. The actual full blooded spins are now done with a slow, shallow banked turn combined with too much bottom rudder as the entry. When I started flying we used to enter the spin from a straight ahead sharp stall combined with quick full rudder deflection.
I used to enjoy spins in the L-13, too. We require spin training for all
our students, but we put it as a post-solo lesson. Pre-solo we cover
stalls, stall awareness, and slow flight (incipient stall) once the student
has mastered basic control of the aircraft.
I'll disagree about Grobs spinning. They don't stay in the spin very long,
but they depart in a most impressive manner if you enter properly. The
entry is the exact setup that catches people by surprise -- slow speed,
shallow turn, bottom rudder, and then react "instinctively" with aileron
instead of rudder. The wing drops very quickly and one finds oneself looking
up at the ground. This only lasts about half a turn before becoming a
spiral dive, but it happens even with forward cg. It's good to see this
in a Grob because the Grob has a reputation as being hard to stall or spin.
It also leads into a discussion that other planes the pilot will fly can
depart more quickly and stay in longer, and teaches them to be vigilant
because even in a "benign" plane the entry can be a killer.
Matt
Evan Ludeman[_4_]
June 5th 13, 02:47 PM
On Wednesday, June 5, 2013 9:12:56 AM UTC-4, K wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 4, 2013 9:51:31 AM UTC-6, Martin Eiler wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Recently we saw a pilot upgrade in performance to an ASW20.
>
> >
>
> > In spite of at least 3 instructors telling him he needed to get spin
>
> >
>
> > training before flying that glider. The new owner has chosen to ignore
>
> >
>
> > their recommendations.
>
> >
>
> Actually, If a pilot were to blow off spin training, A 20 is a good ship to own because it does not spin readily. More likely (Depending on the CG) it will enter into a steep spiral. The thing we need to remember is that it is not necessarily spins that cause accidents, It is the lack of recognition that does. This was addressed in the video that Sean posted. The goal of training should be to recognize and avoid spins in the first place and not just on spin recovery.
I disagree with this. Depending on wing tips, rigging, sealing and CG, the 20 can be a pussycat or it can be downright feral. Even when tamed with good winglets and proper set up, enough provocation will result in a spin. Since the pilot that can't be bothered to take a lesson probably isn't any better on inspections, W&B, rigging & sealing, presuming that his '20 is of the domestic variety might be a mistake.
I'd suggest that now would be a good time for an intervention of sorts. Kidnap the offender on a Saturday morning and cart him off to an appointment with a qualified CFIG.
My $0.02.
T8 (ASW-20B)
Tom Gardner[_2_]
June 5th 13, 02:49 PM
guy wrote:
> When my fellow pilots
> take control and attempt a full stall or spin, the vast majority
> freeze up mentally and/or physically upon entering the maneuver. They
> are not used to the feelings, the control feel, the sight picture, and
> the sounds, or lack there of.
My instructor took me into my first spin many years ago,
when I was a pre-solo pupil.
My feeling then, and I've had no reason to change it since,
is that I strongly doubt I would have recovered on my own,
for exactly the reasons you mention.
Personally I'm glad my club has gliders that can be used
for spin training at down to 1000ft, and that I/we practice
them annually.
Dan Marotta
June 5th 13, 03:05 PM
"<snip>
A far more common "spin accident" sees the aircraft completing less than one
turn before impact. These are probably an incipient spin immediately
transitioning to a spiral dive. In this case, the classic spin recovery
technique taught at altitude is of little use and may even be dangerous.
Far more useful is recognizing an impending spin departure and correcting it
before it gets out of hand.
<end snip>
....Or the uncoordinated stall at very low altitude...
Dan
Bob Whelan[_3_]
June 5th 13, 05:50 PM
On 6/4/2013 10:42 PM, Bart wrote:
> On Jun 4, 6:40 am, BobW > wrote:
>> Personally, I find the mindsets I've encountered in fellow pilots (soaring and
>> power) regarding spins: often worrisome; always interesting; almost
>> universally lacking in fundamental understanding of the aerodynamic
>> uncertainties inherent to "departures from controlled flight" (typically
>> called "spin" for short).
>>
>> To make a sweeping general statement which has long colored my own approach to
>> PIC-ing, if Joe Pilot doesn't truly believe "departure from controlled
>> flight/spinning" is "uncontrolled flight" Joe Pilot is doing him or herself a
>> serious disservice if living to fly another flight is personally important.
>> True whether margins are thin or not...
>
> I have read this post several times and I am not sure if I fully
> understand what you were trying to convey. ESL.
>
> Are you saying that "unexpected departure is uncontrolled flight"? Of
> course it is, almost by definition. If my glider is doing something I
> did not want it to do then I obviously lost control, at least
> temporarily.
>
> But, you may also be saying that spins in general are "uncontrolled
> flight." Is this the case?
>
>
> Bart, who spins gliders for fun
>
Intentionally painting with a broad brush here, I'd wager polling professional
general aviation test pilots for their top two areas of professional concern
in flight test would yield (in no particular order): spin and flutter testing.
(Quite possibly true for military and passenger plane test pilots too, but
those planes differ sufficiently from "Joe Average Gliderpilot's sailplane
arena to warrant separate discussion...)
I doubt any general aviation test pilot approaches these tests with a
complacent mindset. That's not to suggest "real fear" is uppermost in their
minds, rather that "healthy respect" is. My view is a similar mindset is a
good thing for "Joe Average Gliderpilot" too...for the same reasons test
pilots have. Yes, for us sport sailplane pilots - in the case of certified
sailplanes - some of the uncertainties have been investigated (removed?), but...
We still have professional test pilots in this age of digital computational
fluid dynamics anyway because uncertainties still exist...manufacturing (e.g.
human factors), structural (arguably considerably more straightforward then
aerodynamics & including material variability, analytical uncertainties &
limitations, etc.), aerodynamic (interaction of the uncoordinated plane with
generally turbulent air in general, wing-profile dings/bugs, age-based
airframe changes, etc.), etc.
By their very nature, spins are a complex mixture of (rapidly) varying
aerodynamics (entry, rotation, convective turbulence), gravity, inertias
(longitudinal, rotational), balance (CG)...
In my view, spins are the closet Joe Average Gliderpilot is likely to
intentionally get to playing Joe Real Test Pilot. Mental complacency about
spins is - in my view - misguided, overly-hopeful thinking. I've flown only 13
or 14 different types of gliders, and intentionally spun only 3 of them (1-26,
2-32, Blanik L-13), though I've "pre-spin abused" all but 2 in which I've
minimal time and done nothing more than slow-flight airspeed "calibration" for
landing patterns. Never (yet) had an "unexpected departure from controlled
flight" experience...perhaps a result of "healthy paranoia"?
The type in which I've the most spin experience is (was) my 1-26 (S/N 105)
many years ago (it's still "in the flying fleet"). Over 2+ years of ownership
I spun it enough in both directions to learn it (then) would eventually
maintain a "stable spin" up to 17 consecutive turns (the most I ever did) in
one direction, while it wouldn't remain in a spin the other direction (at my
CG) for more than 6 turns...and each of those varied considerably in pitch,
bank angle and rotation rate throughout each 360. Spins in that direction
reminded me of what I then (minimally) knew of single-seat combat planes, most
specifically the A4 Skyhawk. In any event, it was a completely different
animal depending on the direction of spin, though - as with most (all?) 1-26s
- it took considerable abuse/inattention to depart controlled flight in the
ship, and considerable/intentional control inputs to keep it in the spin. I
doubt the example(s?) tested for certification exhibited the same behavior; no
1-26 driver I've queried over the years admits to similar experiences.
Likewise, a 2-32 formerly owned by my club "always" (and abruptly, if warnings
were ignored) departed left wing low for every intentional departure I/we
(instructor/co-pilot) experienced/messed with. And I don't recall it
"recovering on its own".
To the question, "Are spins uncontrolled flight?" the answer is something each
individual pilot gets to answer for themselves. Personally, I think they're
closer to "uncontrolled flight" than "controlled flight," or at the very
least, I think that having that mindset is better than complacently assuming
every certified sailplane will have "entirely predictable spin behavior if
flown within certified weight and balance conditions."
Am I fear mongering or arguing pilots should NOT spin or learn how to "safely
play around the edges of departing from controlled flight?" Heavens no! Once I
gut used to the sensations of "departing" and spinning, I too, found them
great fun. But the more I messed around with them and the more I educated
myself about "spinning," the more respect I gained for the uncertainties
inherent in "playing with a tiger."
Bob W.
BrianM
June 7th 13, 06:11 PM
I feel the real issue with spin training in the US has nothing to do with pilots or flight instructors but the views of the FAA itself, the availability of training locations, equipment, and placards.
The FAA does not allow anyone to do any aerobatic maneuver (defined as more than 30 degrees of pitch or 60 degrees of bank) without wearing a parachute. Since most pilots in the US are powered a/c pilots, the fbo's through which they rent generally do not have any parachutes. The FAA allows only pilots who are in their prep dual for the CFI checkride to do spin training without wearing one. So, in short:
Almost no one has a parachute (except some glider clubs or specialized training facilities).
A lot of GA powered a/c are placarded against it (cherokees, etc.)
The a/c have gyro instruments in them and rental companies hate it when you rattle the gyro's past their limit which they say causes unnecessary wear.
So, in order to get spin training, a person has to find a specialized school to do so, most likely not in their area. Or be training for their CFI Ticket. Or borrow/buy a couple parachutes, locate an a/c not placarded against it available for rent whose owner doesn't mind, and find a CFI willing to do it in those circumstances.
Essentially the parachute rule, combined with the lack of most flight schools possessing them puts the hammer down on the availability of training for it.
If that makes sense. I asked my cfi for spin training when I was a primary student in the 90's and he had an aeronica champ available to do it in but we couldn't find any parachutes easily so it was a wash.
I'm quite sure i'll be able to get the training in a glider fairly readily as more glider clubs have parachutes available. Then again. I already weigh 240 pounds so... well, looks like i'm not going to be able to wear the thing and make front seat of a lot of gliders anyway. lol May be screwed by my own body weight now!
BrianM
June 7th 13, 06:36 PM
I feel the real issue with spin training in the US has nothing to do with pilots or flight instructors but the views of the FAA itself, the availability of training locations, equipment, and placards.
The FAA does not allow anyone to do any aerobatic maneuver (defined as more than 30 degrees of pitch or 60 degrees of bank) without wearing a parachute. Since most pilots in the US are powered a/c pilots, the fbo's through which they rent generally do not have any parachutes. The FAA allows only pilots who are in their prep dual for the CFI checkride to do spin training without wearing one. So, in short:
Almost no one has a parachute (except some glider clubs or specialized training facilities).
A lot of GA powered a/c are placarded against it (cherokees, etc.)
The a/c have gyro instruments in them and rental companies hate it when you rattle the gyro's past their limit which they say causes unnecessary wear.
So, in order to get spin training, a person has to find a specialized school to do so, most likely not in their area. Or be training for their CFI Ticket. Or borrow/buy a couple parachutes, locate an a/c not placarded against it available for rent whose owner doesn't mind, and find a CFI willing to do it in those circumstances.
Essentially the parachute rule, combined with the lack of most flight schools possessing them puts the hammer down on the availability of training for it.
If that makes sense. I asked my cfi for spin training when I was a primary student in the 90's and he had an aeronica champ available to do it in but we couldn't find any parachutes easily so it was a wash.
I'm quite sure i'll be able to get the training in a glider fairly readily as more glider clubs have parachutes available. Then again. I already weigh 240 pounds so... well, looks like i'm not going to be able to wear the thing and make front seat of a lot of gliders anyway. lol May be screwed by my own body weight now!
The story (however accurate or inaccurate it is) about spin training in the US went something like this, as I recall:
1. It was in the PTS for the checkride 50 years ago or so.
2. The FAA and Manufacturers asked a bunch of CFI's what they wanted to see in a new training a/c back in the early 70's.
3. The CFI's said they wanted something more fuel efficient than a Cherokee and newer than the cessna 150. And they wanted something that wasn't so docile and that could be spun much easier. They felt this gave a student a training a/c that behaved more like the rest of the GA fleet in a spin.
4. Piper stepped up to the plate and created the Tomahawk
5. A bunch of people fell to their doom for various reasons.
6. The FAA just before this or after decided to pull it from the Test Standards or training requirements and replace it with 'stall/spin awareness.'
At least that's more or less the general story i've heard over the years.
I wish they'd bring it into the training requirements. I wish there were more options to rent an a/c to do it in. And I also wish it didn't require a parachute.
Sasha Marvin Aerobatics
February 9th 17, 03:22 PM
I do spin training and upset recovery, so we'll see and practice what happen in all the potential dangerous situations and how to get out of it.
You need to practice, because one thing is "knowing" what to do, totally different is to react promptly, having a clear vision of what is going to happen far in advance, and most of all not overreacting.
I show you how to get into a spin from many different situations and attitudes, like in thermalling, but also with skids on landings (we do that up high), you'll see how many feet you lose in a stall, and actually train your body to recognize those dangers, so you will just automatically avoid them without even thinking.
Just little part of the program...
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