The Spruce Goosed by the ADA?

[C J Campbell]

Someone posted on the Pacific Northwest Flying forum that they had flown to
McMinnville, OR to tour the Spruce Goose. What they found out was that since
the entire airplane is not handicapped accessible the public was no longer
being allowed to go through it. The only view of the interior now available
is from a glass box inside the fuselage. If the airplane is not made
accessible to everybody then nobody can see it. Of course, modifying the
airplane to make it accessible would probably destroy its value as an
artifact.

Evergreen Museum is attempting to get around the rule by claiming that
registered members are not the general public, so at least their members
should still be allowed to tour the plane.

--
Christopher J. Campbell
World Famous Flight Instructor
Port Orchard, WA


If you go around beating the Bush, don't complain if you rile the animals.

[PS2727]

I toured the Spruce Goose years ago when it was under the large dome near the
Queen Mary. As I remember there was some sort of small platform which allowed
visitors to get inside the fuselage for a look but you were not able to wander
around inside. Just a small area suspended above the floor and I think it was
encased in glass or plexiglass. It would have been great to crawl around but I
can only imagine what the public at large would do in that case. I wonder if
the display is the same arrangement or more restricted than before.

[Otis Winslow]

I don't recall being able to go thru the whole thing when I saw it at LB
about 15 yrs ago. I believe was just a viewing area.


"PS2727" > wrote in message
...
> I toured the Spruce Goose years ago when it was under the large dome near
the
> Queen Mary. As I remember there was some sort of small platform which
allowed
> visitors to get inside the fuselage for a look but you were not able to
wander
> around inside. Just a small area suspended above the floor and I think it
was
> encased in glass or plexiglass. It would have been great to crawl around
but I
> can only imagine what the public at large would do in that case. I wonder
if
> the display is the same arrangement or more restricted than before.

[C J Campbell]

"Otis Winslow" > wrote in message
.. .
> I don't recall being able to go thru the whole thing when I saw it at LB
> about 15 yrs ago. I believe was just a viewing area.
>

This was something that Evergreen was allowing at McMinnville, until the
access issue came up.

I seem to recall that Evergreen had to do considerable restoration work due
to deterioration and damage and various holes cut into the fuselage for
viewing at other locations. I think Disney had made several undesirable
modifications, for example.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
> Someone posted on the Pacific Northwest Flying forum that they had flown
to
> McMinnville, OR to tour the Spruce Goose. What they found out was that
since
> the entire airplane is not handicapped accessible the public was no longer
> being allowed to go through it. The only view of the interior now
available
> is from a glass box inside the fuselage. If the airplane is not made
> accessible to everybody then nobody can see it. Of course, modifying the
> airplane to make it accessible would probably destroy its value as an
> artifact.
>
Damn...Howard Hughes was such a insensitive putz.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Otis Winslow" > wrote in message
> .. .
> > I don't recall being able to go thru the whole thing when I saw it at LB
> > about 15 yrs ago. I believe was just a viewing area.

I saw it in LB back in '89 and we did go through, but certain areas
(cockpit, etc) were glassed off.

> >
>
> This was something that Evergreen was allowing at McMinnville, until the
> access issue came up.
>
> I seem to recall that Evergreen had to do considerable restoration work
due
> to deterioration and damage and various holes cut into the fuselage for
> viewing at other locations. I think Disney had made several undesirable
> modifications, for example.

With the ADA, as always: "The road to hell is paved with good intentions".

[Jon Woellhaf]

I went to the Evergreen Aviation Museum across from the McMinnville airport
on 4 Jun 02. It had just recently been opened to the public. The museum was
terrific and the Hughes HK-1 "Spruce Goose" awesome. I was very happy to see
that the entire seaplane is on display -- no clipped wings or tail. I asked
if I could go inside but was told that because it was not accessible to
everyone no one except museum personnel could go inside -- ADA rules. There
were a couple large openings on the port side, one just in front of and the
other aligned with the leading edge of the wing, so I could see part of the
interior.

Piloting content: I flew my 182 into McMinnville at the end of a great
flight around the Olympic Peninsula from Boeing Field.

Not to be missed if you're in the area!

Jon

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
> Someone posted on the Pacific Northwest Flying forum that they had flown
to
> McMinnville, OR to tour the Spruce Goose. What they found out was that
since
> the entire airplane is not handicapped accessible the public was no longer
> being allowed to go through it. The only view of the interior now
available
> is from a glass box inside the fuselage. If the airplane is not made
> accessible to everybody then nobody can see it. Of course, modifying the
> airplane to make it accessible would probably destroy its value as an
> artifact.
>
> Evergreen Museum is attempting to get around the rule by claiming that
> registered members are not the general public, so at least their members
> should still be allowed to tour the plane.
>
> --
> Christopher J. Campbell
> World Famous Flight Instructor
> Port Orchard, WA
>
>
> If you go around beating the Bush, don't complain if you rile the animals.
>
>
>

[Rob Perkins]

(PS2727) wrote:

>I toured the Spruce Goose years ago when it was under the large dome near the
>Queen Mary. As I remember there was some sort of small platform which allowed
>visitors to get inside the fuselage for a look but you were not able to wander
>around inside. Just a small area suspended above the floor and I think it was
>encased in glass or plexiglass.

The old Air Force One airplanes at Wright-Patterson can never be
h-capped accessable. The passages left to museumgoers is only two feet
wide, after all the plexiglass protective walls are accounted for.

In spite of this I think the Air Force is still letting people go
through the planes.

Neat collection of planes, tho. I didn't get enough time, there.

Rob

[Jay Honeck]

> The old Air Force One airplanes at Wright-Patterson can never be
> h-capped accessable. The passages left to museumgoers is only two feet
> wide, after all the plexiglass protective walls are accounted for.
>
> In spite of this I think the Air Force is still letting people go
> through the planes.

I was thinking the same thing. Heck, I had to turn sideways to slither
through one of the planes.

Maybe we should keep quiet, lest someone bitches and they have to shut 'em
down.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Rob Perkins]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

>> The old Air Force One airplanes at Wright-Patterson can never be
>> h-capped accessable. The passages left to museumgoers is only two feet
>> wide, after all the plexiglass protective walls are accounted for.
>>
>> In spite of this I think the Air Force is still letting people go
>> through the planes.
>
>I was thinking the same thing. Heck, I had to turn sideways to slither
>through one of the planes.
>
>Maybe we should keep quiet, lest someone bitches and they have to shut 'em
>down.

I'm not going back to that museum. For one, it's over 2000 miles from
where I am. For another, the passages were just too freaking narrow.
I'll look at the pictures.

And it occurs to me that given some very minor modifications, *one* of
the AF1's is very handicapped accessable. One just wouldn't be able to
wheel through the rest of the airplane.

Rob

[Jay Honeck]

> And it occurs to me that given some very minor modifications, *one* of
> the AF1's is very handicapped accessable. One just wouldn't be able to
> wheel through the rest of the airplane.

True, but I doubt any wheelchair-bound person nowadays would want to ride
Roosevelt's rickety-looking elevator into the cargo bay of a DC-4...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Peter Duniho]

"Rob Perkins" > wrote in message
...
> The old Air Force One airplanes at Wright-Patterson can never be
> h-capped accessable. The passages left to museumgoers is only two feet
> wide, after all the plexiglass protective walls are accounted for.
>
> In spite of this I think the Air Force is still letting people go
> through the planes.

There are plenty of examples of places that are accessible by the public,
but not to all handicapped people. I'm no expert on disability law, but
it's obvious that the ADA has some sort of allowance for situations where
accessibility is not compatible with practicality or history. It's not the
case that simply being accessible by the public is in and of itself
sufficient for requiring handicapped access under the ADA.

It's possible the Evergreen Museum actually does believe that the ADA
requires the Spruce Goose to be made handicapped-accessible, but I doubt
that the law actually does. There are too many examples of inaccessible
museum displays, aircraft and otherwaise, for that to actually be the case.
You mentioned the AF1 displays at Wright-Patterson, and the AF1 display at
the Museum of Flight in Seattle has the same characteristic, as do many of
the displays at the Pima Air Museum in Tucson (including their AF1 planes).

Someone needs to get the folks at Evergreen straightened out.

Pete

[Rob Perkins]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote:

>It's possible the Evergreen Museum actually does believe that the ADA
>requires the Spruce Goose to be made handicapped-accessible, but I doubt
>that the law actually does.

Well, y'know, Pete, what can you say?

It's Oregon! :-)

Rob

[G.R. Patterson III]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> Maybe we should keep quiet, lest someone bitches and they have to shut 'em
> down.

I don't think there's any fear of that. I took a look at the ADA stuff, and it's
all very well worded. There is no mention of the regs being applicable to museums,
and the regs are full of phrases like "where reasonably accomplished". I expect
what's happened is that some organization has threatened to sue the museum and
the museum can't afford to defend the suit, so they've caved in. The Air Force
would tell such a group to stick it.

George Patterson
Battle, n; A method of untying with the teeth a political knot that would
not yield to the tongue.

[MRQB]

Did they have the SR-71 out yet


"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
> Someone posted on the Pacific Northwest Flying forum that they had flown
to
> McMinnville, OR to tour the Spruce Goose. What they found out was that
since
> the entire airplane is not handicapped accessible the public was no longer
> being allowed to go through it. The only view of the interior now
available
> is from a glass box inside the fuselage. If the airplane is not made
> accessible to everybody then nobody can see it. Of course, modifying the
> airplane to make it accessible would probably destroy its value as an
> artifact.
>
> Evergreen Museum is attempting to get around the rule by claiming that
> registered members are not the general public, so at least their members
> should still be allowed to tour the plane.
>
> --
> Christopher J. Campbell
> World Famous Flight Instructor
> Port Orchard, WA
>
>
> If you go around beating the Bush, don't complain if you rile the animals.
>
>
>

[JohnMcGrew]

In article >, Rob Perkins
> writes:

>In spite of this I think the Air Force is still letting people go
>through the planes.

Of course they are. After all the government is exempt from such silly
goverment edicts. After all, if the government had to abide by all the silly
edicts that it imposed on the rest of us, they'd get less done than they do
now.

Such is the logical end of such efforts at "fairness" in society by the
socialist lot. Keep lowering standards nearer to the lowest common
denominator, until finally it's at zero.

John

[Doug Carter]

JohnMcGrew > wrote:

> After all, if the government had to abide by all the silly edicts that
> it imposed on the rest of us, they'd get less done than they do now.

As Martha would say (now more than ever) "that would be a good thing."