Re: Asiana 777 at SFO

[birdog[_3_]]

Full disclosure - I am an 86 year old ex pilot,but my soul is still in
the cockpit. Don't know how pertinent this is, but I got a lot of free
time nowadays.

Back in the late '60's we had a flying club - 3 planes including a 7AC
Champ. An airline pilot temporarily stationed locally joined the club.
The club instructor checked him out in the Champ (his only interest). On
inquiry by the instructor, he was told that he felt that over time his
basic "pilotage" skills eroded, that sitting in a "boxcar" staring at an
instrument panel did not constitute staying sharp as a pilot. He was an
infrequent visitor due to job demands, but he spent his time, according
to the instructor, flying dual under the hood recovering from unusual
attitudes and navigating using only needle, ball, airspeed and magnetic
compass. (That's all the old Champ had.) Otherwise, he was shooting
landings, performing lazy eights, etc. Having no experience in
commercial craft myself, I couldn't relate to his logic, but was
impressed with his attitude.

Not sure how this relates to the topic, but there it is.

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
birdog > wrote:

> Full disclosure - I am an 86 year old ex pilot,but my soul is still in
> the cockpit. Don't know how pertinent this is, but I got a lot of free
> time nowadays.
>
> Back in the late '60's we had a flying club - 3 planes including a 7AC
> Champ. An airline pilot temporarily stationed locally joined the club.
> The club instructor checked him out in the Champ (his only interest). On
> inquiry by the instructor, he was told that he felt that over time his
> basic "pilotage" skills eroded, that sitting in a "boxcar" staring at an
> instrument panel did not constitute staying sharp as a pilot. He was an
> infrequent visitor due to job demands, but he spent his time, according
> to the instructor, flying dual under the hood recovering from unusual
> attitudes and navigating using only needle, ball, airspeed and magnetic
> compass. (That's all the old Champ had.) Otherwise, he was shooting
> landings, performing lazy eights, etc. Having no experience in
> commercial craft myself, I couldn't relate to his logic, but was
> impressed with his attitude.
>
> Not sure how this relates to the topic, but there it is.

Pretty much on topic, but combine it with a lack of understanding of
basic airmanship and younhave a recipe for disaster.

[Panic[_4_]]

"birdog" wrote in message
...

Full disclosure - I am an 86 year old ex pilot,but my soul is still in
the cockpit. Don't know how pertinent this is, but I got a lot of free
time nowadays.

Back in the late '60's we had a flying club - 3 planes including a 7AC
Champ. An airline pilot temporarily stationed locally joined the club.
The club instructor checked him out in the Champ (his only interest). On
inquiry by the instructor, he was told that he felt that over time his
basic "pilotage" skills eroded, that sitting in a "boxcar" staring at an
instrument panel did not constitute staying sharp as a pilot. He was an
infrequent visitor due to job demands, but he spent his time, according
to the instructor, flying dual under the hood recovering from unusual
attitudes and navigating using only needle, ball, airspeed and magnetic
compass. (That's all the old Champ had.) Otherwise, he was shooting
landings, performing lazy eights, etc. Having no experience in
commercial craft myself, I couldn't relate to his logic, but was
impressed with his attitude.


As for the Asiana pilots, many of us U.S. pilots who have taught Orientals
have found that some of them seem to be able to understand the individual
elements of a situation but have difficulty putting in all together. An
example might be to be flying manually and get low on the glide slope and
raise the nose a little but fail to add a little power. They frequently
have difficulty in visual approaches where THEY have to come up with the
overall corrections to fly to the runway safely. But they seem to easily
fly an instrument approach using a flight director for spatial guidance and
autothrottles to control the speed.

They also frequently come from a culture where it is “bad� to correct a
superior when errors crop up. I remember a situation years ago where a JAL
pilot flew into the water. They asked the surviving FO if he didn’t see the
Captain was getting too low. He said basically, “Yes, but it was the
Captain’s leg�.

“Honkies� come from a culture where we don’t always “trust the magic� and we
pay more attention to the supporting instruments rather than just the flight
director. After the La Paz incident where they allowed the autoflight
system to turn the wrong way and descended into a mountain at night our AA
bosses put out directives that we were not “automation managers�. We were
pilots and we should turn off the “magic� whenever it was safe and possible
and use our basic skills to fly the approach and landing ourselves. That
way if the “magic� was not doing what we thought it should be doing we
should “click-click� turn off the magic and hand fly the aircraft.

[David Powell[_2_]]

On Monday, July 15, 2013 12:27:34 PM UTC-4, Panic wrote:
> "birdog" wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> Full disclosure - I am an 86 year old ex pilot,but my soul is still in
>
> the cockpit. Don't know how pertinent this is, but I got a lot of free
>
> time nowadays.
>
>
>
> Back in the late '60's we had a flying club - 3 planes including a 7AC
>
> Champ. An airline pilot temporarily stationed locally joined the club.
>
> The club instructor checked him out in the Champ (his only interest). On
>
> inquiry by the instructor, he was told that he felt that over time his
>
> basic "pilotage" skills eroded, that sitting in a "boxcar" staring at an
>
> instrument panel did not constitute staying sharp as a pilot. He was an
>
> infrequent visitor due to job demands, but he spent his time, according
>
> to the instructor, flying dual under the hood recovering from unusual
>
> attitudes and navigating using only needle, ball, airspeed and magnetic
>
> compass. (That's all the old Champ had.) Otherwise, he was shooting
>
> landings, performing lazy eights, etc. Having no experience in
>
> commercial craft myself, I couldn't relate to his logic, but was
>
> impressed with his attitude.
>
>
>
>
>
> As for the Asiana pilots, many of us U.S. pilots who have taught Orientals
>
> have found that some of them seem to be able to understand the individual
>
> elements of a situation but have difficulty putting in all together. An
>
> example might be to be flying manually and get low on the glide slope and
>
> raise the nose a little but fail to add a little power. They frequently
>
> have difficulty in visual approaches where THEY have to come up with the
>
> overall corrections to fly to the runway safely. But they seem to easily
>
> fly an instrument approach using a flight director for spatial guidance and
>
> autothrottles to control the speed.
>
>
>
> They also frequently come from a culture where it is “bad” to correct a
>
> superior when errors crop up. I remember a situation years ago where a JAL
>
> pilot flew into the water. They asked the surviving FO if he didn’t see the
>
> Captain was getting too low. He said basically, “Yes, but it was the
>
> Captain’s leg”.
>
>
>
> “Honkies” come from a culture where we don’t always “trust the magic” and we
>
> pay more attention to the supporting instruments rather than just the flight
>
> director. After the La Paz incident where they allowed the autoflight
>
> system to turn the wrong way and descended into a mountain at night our AA
>
> bosses put out directives that we were not “automation managers”. We were
>
> pilots and we should turn off the “magic” whenever it was safe and possible
>
> and use our basic skills to fly the approach and landing ourselves. That
>
> way if the “magic” was not doing what we thought it should be doing we
>
> should “click-click” turn off the magic and hand fly the aircraft.

Dear Sir:

It seems that the investigation is leaning that way.

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/AW_07_15_2013_p22-596107.xml&p=1

<http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/AW_07_15_2013_p22-596107.xml&p=1>

The latest on it from Av Week.

DEP

[Bug Dout]

Quite relevant.

I too was in a flying club with a variety of aircraft, including a J-3
and an Airknocker. Had a tailwheel refresher in the J-3 with a commuter
airline pilot/instructor. Evidently he, too, like staying in touch with
hands-on flying. He mentioned that the hardest part of this job (he made
two round-trips a day between Sacramento and San Francisco, 30-45 mins
flying time each leg) was treating each flight as new and fresh. A good
attitude I remember still.

Pilots of most cultures and countries are intelligent, but it seems
mostly western pilots have the proper attitude and understanding and
skepticism of automated gadgets. Also, American pilots have the
opportunity and desire to continue flying the small planes.

Another thing: in most non-western cultures your career is picked for
you. I work with many foreign-born engineers who are competent but have
no real interest in engineering. They scored such-and-such in their
school exams and were slotted into this-and-that career. Having an
interest in your job is a foreign concept...heh. Same with them being
doctors, etc.
--
What do you call male ballerinas?
--Peter Kay

[Panic[_4_]]

"Bug Dout" wrote in message ...

Quite relevant.

I too was in a flying club with a variety of aircraft, including a J-3
and an Airknocker. Had a tailwheel refresher in the J-3 with a commuter
airline pilot/instructor. Evidently he, too, like staying in touch with
hands-on flying. He mentioned that the hardest part of this job (he made
two round-trips a day between Sacramento and San Francisco, 30-45 mins
flying time each leg) was treating each flight as new and fresh. A good
attitude I remember still.

Pilots of most cultures and countries are intelligent, but it seems
mostly western pilots have the proper attitude and understanding and
skepticism of automated gadgets. Also, American pilots have the
opportunity and desire to continue flying the small planes.

Another thing: in most non-western cultures your career is picked for
you. I work with many foreign-born engineers who are competent but have
no real interest in engineering. They scored such-and-such in their
school exams and were slotted into this-and-that career. Having an
interest in your job is a foreign concept...heh. Same with them being
doctors, etc.
--
What do you call male ballerinas?
--Peter Kay

Shirley?