Quick question about an incident which happend today

[Chris]

Hi everyone,
I have a question for people who fly in CT, and NY often. Today I was
flying from Danbury (DXR) to Brookhaven (HWV). I flew out without incident.
Coming home I flew from Brookhaven direct to Calverton then to Bridgeport
then direct Danbury using a combination of my sectional chart and GPS as a
backup. The whole route was flown at 3,000 ft with the exception of takeoff
from Brookhaven and a decent about 8 miles to the south of Danbury. Upon
arrival ground control at Danbury gave me a phone number to contact NY
approach on. I called the number and was transferred to a controller who I
told my call sign the control accused me of flying through the Westchester
County Airports airspace at 2,800 ft. I was never within more then 20 Miles
of White Plains on my whole route. This is confirmed with my GPS which has
the tracked route stored in it and my by extensive knowledge of the area. I
also confirmed I was directly over Bridgeport and flew in-between the lakes
in the area if anyone is familiar with them. The controllers insisted it was
me and said he tracked me flying over Westchester, I'm absolutely positive I
was never in the area. He got alittle agitated when I told him I believed I
was correct and he just demanded it was me for sure. I'm just curious what
anyone else would do in this case. Another aircraft came into Danbury around
the same times from the south and I think this is a case of mistaken
identity and was accused of busting the class delta for no reason. Are there
any actions or steps I can take against being falsely accused?

Thanks,
Chris

[PhyrePhox]

Print out the route information from the GPS. Fill out a NASA form and
attach the print out.

Paul Davis

"Chris" > wrote in message
...
> Hi everyone,
> I have a question for people who fly in CT, and NY often. Today I was
> flying from Danbury (DXR) to Brookhaven (HWV). I flew out without
incident.
> Coming home I flew from Brookhaven direct to Calverton then to Bridgeport
> then direct Danbury using a combination of my sectional chart and GPS as a
> backup. The whole route was flown at 3,000 ft with the exception of
takeoff
> from Brookhaven and a decent about 8 miles to the south of Danbury. Upon
> arrival ground control at Danbury gave me a phone number to contact NY
> approach on. I called the number and was transferred to a controller who I
> told my call sign the control accused me of flying through the Westchester
> County Airports airspace at 2,800 ft. I was never within more then 20
Miles
> of White Plains on my whole route. This is confirmed with my GPS which has
> the tracked route stored in it and my by extensive knowledge of the area.
I
> also confirmed I was directly over Bridgeport and flew in-between the
lakes
> in the area if anyone is familiar with them. The controllers insisted it
was
> me and said he tracked me flying over Westchester, I'm absolutely positive
I
> was never in the area. He got alittle agitated when I told him I believed
I
> was correct and he just demanded it was me for sure. I'm just curious what
> anyone else would do in this case. Another aircraft came into Danbury
around
> the same times from the south and I think this is a case of mistaken
> identity and was accused of busting the class delta for no reason. Are
there
> any actions or steps I can take against being falsely accused?
>
> Thanks,
> Chris
>
>




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[Chris]

CORRECTION:

Hi everyone,

I have a question for people who fly in CT, and NY often. Today I was

flying from Danbury (DXR) to Brookhaven (HWV). I flew out without incident.

Coming home I flew from Brookhaven direct to Calverton then to Bridgeport

then direct Danbury using a combination of my sectional chart and GPS as a

backup. The whole route was flown at 3,000 ft with the exception of takeoff

from Brookhaven and a decent about 8 miles to the south of Danbury. Upon

arrival ground control at Danbury gave me a phone number to contact NY

approach on. I called the number and was transferred to a controller who I

told my call sign the control accused me of flying through the Westchester

County Airports airspace at 2,800 ft. I was never any closer than 15 Miles

of White Plains on my whole route. This is confirmed with my GPS which has

the tracked route stored in it and my by extensive knowledge of the area. I

also confirmed I was directly over Bridgeport and flew in-between the lakes

in the area if anyone is familiar with them. The controllers insisted it was

me and said he tracked me flying over Westchester, I'm absolutely positive I

was never in the area. He got alittle agitated when I told him I believed I

was correct and he just demanded it was me for sure. I'm just curious what

anyone else would do in this case. Another aircraft came into Danbury around

the same times from the south and I think this is a case of mistaken

identity and was accused of busting the class delta for no reason. Are there

any actions or steps I can take against being falsely accused?

Thanks,

Chris

"Chris" > wrote in message
...
> Hi everyone,
> I have a question for people who fly in CT, and NY often. Today I was
> flying from Danbury (DXR) to Brookhaven (HWV). I flew out without
incident.
> Coming home I flew from Brookhaven direct to Calverton then to Bridgeport
> then direct Danbury using a combination of my sectional chart and GPS as a
> backup. The whole route was flown at 3,000 ft with the exception of
takeoff
> from Brookhaven and a decent about 8 miles to the south of Danbury. Upon
> arrival ground control at Danbury gave me a phone number to contact NY
> approach on. I called the number and was transferred to a controller who I
> told my call sign the control accused me of flying through the Westchester
> County Airports airspace at 2,800 ft. I was never within more then 20
Miles
> of White Plains on my whole route. This is confirmed with my GPS which has
> the tracked route stored in it and my by extensive knowledge of the area.
I
> also confirmed I was directly over Bridgeport and flew in-between the
lakes
> in the area if anyone is familiar with them. The controllers insisted it
was
> me and said he tracked me flying over Westchester, I'm absolutely positive
I
> was never in the area. He got alittle agitated when I told him I believed
I
> was correct and he just demanded it was me for sure. I'm just curious what
> anyone else would do in this case. Another aircraft came into Danbury
around
> the same times from the south and I think this is a case of mistaken
> identity and was accused of busting the class delta for no reason. Are
there
> any actions or steps I can take against being falsely accused?
>
> Thanks,
> Chris
>
>

[Peter Gottlieb]

I would ask for the supervisor and explain the situation, the possibility of
mistaken identity, and offer to send in the GPS plot. If it goes further
than this, they should be able to match up your GPS plot with a radar track
and clear you. I don't know if they will do this, but because of the
possibility of things like this happening I am a member of the AOPA legal
services plan and I would call them to get a more solid answer to what steps
I should take.

Usenet is great, but there times a lawyer representing you and making a
couple of calls can really put your mind to ease.


"Chris" > wrote in message
...
> Hi everyone,
> I have a question for people who fly in CT, and NY often. Today I was
> flying from Danbury (DXR) to Brookhaven (HWV). I flew out without
incident.
> Coming home I flew from Brookhaven direct to Calverton then to Bridgeport
> then direct Danbury using a combination of my sectional chart and GPS as a
> backup. The whole route was flown at 3,000 ft with the exception of
takeoff
> from Brookhaven and a decent about 8 miles to the south of Danbury. Upon
> arrival ground control at Danbury gave me a phone number to contact NY
> approach on. I called the number and was transferred to a controller who I
> told my call sign the control accused me of flying through the Westchester
> County Airports airspace at 2,800 ft. I was never within more then 20
Miles
> of White Plains on my whole route. This is confirmed with my GPS which has
> the tracked route stored in it and my by extensive knowledge of the area.
I
> also confirmed I was directly over Bridgeport and flew in-between the
lakes
> in the area if anyone is familiar with them. The controllers insisted it
was
> me and said he tracked me flying over Westchester, I'm absolutely positive
I
> was never in the area. He got alittle agitated when I told him I believed
I
> was correct and he just demanded it was me for sure. I'm just curious what
> anyone else would do in this case. Another aircraft came into Danbury
around
> the same times from the south and I think this is a case of mistaken
> identity and was accused of busting the class delta for no reason. Are
there
> any actions or steps I can take against being falsely accused?
>
> Thanks,
> Chris
>
>

[Victor]

File a Nasa report.

[Dennis O'Connor]

Save the ground track on your GPS, if it has one...
File an incident report...
Join AOPA in the morning and take out their legal insurance...
If you hear anything further from the feds do not answer any questions,
refer them to your lawyer...
denny

"Chris" > wrote in message
...
> CORRECTION:
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> I have a question for people who fly in CT, and NY often. Today I was
>
> flying from Danbury (DXR) to Brookhaven (HWV). I flew out without
incident.
>
> Coming home I flew from Brookhaven direct to Calverton then to Bridgeport
>
> then direct Danbury using a combination of my sectional chart and GPS as a
>
> backup. The whole route was flown at 3,000 ft with the exception of
takeoff
>
> from Brookhaven and a decent about 8 miles to the south of Danbury. Upon
>
> arrival ground control at Danbury gave me a phone number to contact NY
>
> approach on. I called the number and was transferred to a controller who I
>
> told my call sign the control accused me of flying through the Westchester
>
> County Airports airspace at 2,800 ft. I was never any closer than 15 Miles
>
> of White Plains on my whole route. This is confirmed with my GPS which has
>
> the tracked route stored in it and my by extensive knowledge of the area.
I
>
> also confirmed I was directly over Bridgeport and flew in-between the
lakes
>
> in the area if anyone is familiar with them. The controllers insisted it
was
>
> me and said he tracked me flying over Westchester, I'm absolutely positive
I
>
> was never in the area. He got alittle agitated when I told him I believed
I
>
> was correct and he just demanded it was me for sure. I'm just curious what
>
> anyone else would do in this case. Another aircraft came into Danbury
around
>
> the same times from the south and I think this is a case of mistaken
>
> identity and was accused of busting the class delta for no reason. Are
there
>
> any actions or steps I can take against being falsely accused?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chris
>
> "Chris" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Hi everyone,
> > I have a question for people who fly in CT, and NY often. Today I
was
> > flying from Danbury (DXR) to Brookhaven (HWV). I flew out without
> incident.
> > Coming home I flew from Brookhaven direct to Calverton then to
Bridgeport
> > then direct Danbury using a combination of my sectional chart and GPS as
a
> > backup. The whole route was flown at 3,000 ft with the exception of
> takeoff
> > from Brookhaven and a decent about 8 miles to the south of Danbury. Upon
> > arrival ground control at Danbury gave me a phone number to contact NY
> > approach on. I called the number and was transferred to a controller who
I
> > told my call sign the control accused me of flying through the
Westchester
> > County Airports airspace at 2,800 ft. I was never within more then 20
> Miles
> > of White Plains on my whole route. This is confirmed with my GPS which
has
> > the tracked route stored in it and my by extensive knowledge of the
area.
> I
> > also confirmed I was directly over Bridgeport and flew in-between the
> lakes
> > in the area if anyone is familiar with them. The controllers insisted it
> was
> > me and said he tracked me flying over Westchester, I'm absolutely
positive
> I
> > was never in the area. He got alittle agitated when I told him I
believed
> I
> > was correct and he just demanded it was me for sure. I'm just curious
what
> > anyone else would do in this case. Another aircraft came into Danbury
> around
> > the same times from the south and I think this is a case of mistaken
> > identity and was accused of busting the class delta for no reason. Are
> there
> > any actions or steps I can take against being falsely accused?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Chris
> >
> >
>
>

[Dennis O'Connor]

Oh, and most importantly, never, never, never talk to atc unless you are
absolutely forced to do so... I haven't looked at the sectional for your
area so you may have had to talk woth them the entire way, but in the future
always plan your flying so that you only use atc to get into or out of
controlled airspace, and then immediately cancel and go back to squawking
1200... They are NOT your friend...
denny

"Chris" > wrote in message
...

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Chris" > wrote in message
...
>
> Hi everyone,
> I have a question for people who fly in CT, and NY often. Today I was
> flying from Danbury (DXR) to Brookhaven (HWV). I flew out without
incident.
> Coming home I flew from Brookhaven direct to Calverton then to Bridgeport
> then direct Danbury using a combination of my sectional chart and GPS as a
> backup. The whole route was flown at 3,000 ft with the exception of
takeoff
> from Brookhaven and a decent about 8 miles to the south of Danbury. Upon
> arrival ground control at Danbury gave me a phone number to contact NY
> approach on. I called the number and was transferred to a controller who I
> told my call sign the control accused me of flying through the Westchester
> County Airports airspace at 2,800 ft. I was never within more then 20
Miles
> of White Plains on my whole route. This is confirmed with my GPS which has
> the tracked route stored in it and my by extensive knowledge of the area.
I
> also confirmed I was directly over Bridgeport and flew in-between the
lakes
> in the area if anyone is familiar with them. The controllers insisted it
was
> me and said he tracked me flying over Westchester, I'm absolutely positive
I
> was never in the area. He got alittle agitated when I told him I believed
I
> was correct and he just demanded it was me for sure. I'm just curious what
> anyone else would do in this case. Another aircraft came into Danbury
around
> the same times from the south and I think this is a case of mistaken
> identity and was accused of busting the class delta for no reason. Are
there
> any actions or steps I can take against being falsely accused?
>

Did you receive radar services from any ATC facility? If not, and it sounds
like you didn't, the controller is not in a position to accuse you of
anything.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Dennis O'Connor" > wrote in message
...
>
> Oh, and most importantly, never, never, never talk to atc unless you are
> absolutely forced to do so... I haven't looked at the sectional for your
> area so you may have had to talk woth them the entire way, but in the
> future always plan your flying so that you only use atc to get into or out
> of controlled airspace, and then immediately cancel and go back to
> squawking 1200... They are NOT your friend...
>

In your uninformed opinion.

[Dan Luke]

"Dennis O'Connor" wrote:
> Oh, and most importantly, never, never, never talk to atc
> unless you are absolutely forced to do so...They are
> NOT your friend...

Dang, Denny, that's pretty harsh.

I don't share your view, but you've got a lot more time than I, so I
must suppose you base that opinion on experience. Care to share it?
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM
(remove pants to reply by email)

[Richard Hertz]

That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

"Dennis O'Connor" > wrote in message
...
> Oh, and most importantly, never, never, never talk to atc unless you are
> absolutely forced to do so... I haven't looked at the sectional for your
> area so you may have had to talk woth them the entire way, but in the
future
> always plan your flying so that you only use atc to get into or out of
> controlled airspace, and then immediately cancel and go back to squawking
> 1200... They are NOT your friend...
> denny
>
> "Chris" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>

[Matthew P. Cummings]

On Sun, 28 Mar 2004 08:38:12 -0500, Dennis O'Connor wrote:

> Oh, and most importantly, never, never, never talk to atc unless you are
> absolutely forced to do so... I haven't looked at the sectional for your

Why do you hold that opinion? From my experience ATC has always been a
useful tool that more pilots should utilize.

[John Clonts]

"Chris" > wrote in message
...
> Hi everyone,
> I have a question for people who fly in CT, and NY often. Today I was
> flying from Danbury (DXR) to Brookhaven (HWV). I flew out without
incident.
> Coming home I flew from Brookhaven direct to Calverton then to Bridgeport
> then direct Danbury using a combination of my sectional chart and GPS as a
> backup. The whole route was flown at 3,000 ft with the exception of
takeoff
> from Brookhaven and a decent about 8 miles to the south of Danbury. Upon
> arrival ground control at Danbury gave me a phone number to contact NY
> approach on. I called the number and was transferred to a controller who I
> told my call sign the control accused me of flying through the Westchester
> County Airports airspace at 2,800 ft. I was never within more then 20
Miles
> of White Plains on my whole route. This is confirmed with my GPS which has
> the tracked route stored in it and my by extensive knowledge of the area.
I
> also confirmed I was directly over Bridgeport and flew in-between the
lakes
> in the area if anyone is familiar with them. The controllers insisted it
was
> me and said he tracked me flying over Westchester, I'm absolutely positive
I
> was never in the area. He got alittle agitated when I told him I believed
I
> was correct and he just demanded it was me for sure. I'm just curious what
> anyone else would do in this case. Another aircraft came into Danbury
around
> the same times from the south and I think this is a case of mistaken
> identity and was accused of busting the class delta for no reason. Are
there
> any actions or steps I can take against being falsely accused?
>
> Thanks,
> Chris
>

I agree with the others that the NASA ASRS forms and the AOPA legal are good
ideas.

If your GPS does not allow input of track data from an external source (e.g.
PC) then you should retain that track on the GPS unit as "unadulteratable"
evidence.

FYI if you would like to see you track overlaid directly onto a sectional or
other map, I would be happy to do this for you if you send me a copy of the
track file. E-mail me at jclonts AT hot dot rr dot com.

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

[Newps]

Dan Luke wrote:

> "Dennis O'Connor" wrote:
> > Oh, and most importantly, never, never, never talk to atc
>
>>unless you are absolutely forced to do so...They are
>>NOT your friend...
>
>
> Dang, Denny, that's pretty harsh.
>
> I don't share your view, but you've got a lot more time than I, so I
> must suppose you base that opinion on experience. Care to share it?


No he doesn't, that's just ignorance.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Dennis O'Connor wrote:
>
> Oh, and most importantly, never, never, never talk to atc unless you are
> absolutely forced to do so...

I disagree. If he *had* been talking to NY approach during this flight, they
would know for a fact that he didn't bust any airspace.

George Patterson
Battle, n; A method of untying with the teeth a political knot that would
not yield to the tongue.

[G.R. Patterson III]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:
>
> Did you receive radar services from any ATC facility? If not, and it sounds
> like you didn't, the controller is not in a position to accuse you of
> anything.

Sounds to me that they tracked the violator on radar and believe the aircraft
landed at Danbury. Of course, I'm sure NY approach had nothing better to do and
couldn't possibly have mixed up his track with that of another aircraft (sarcasm
off).

In any case, that sort of thing is done on occasion in the northeast corridor.
Both Philly and NY controllers are infamous for it. I suspect the controller or
supervisor making the call was just fishing for an admission of guilt, but I
agree with the other posters about saving the track evidence, NASA report, and
AOPA's legal plan.

George Patterson
Battle, n; A method of untying with the teeth a political knot that would
not yield to the tongue.

[C J Campbell]

"Richard Hertz" > wrote in message
. net...
> That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.
>

No. Anyone who reads these news groups has heard things that are even more
ridiculous than that.

Shucks, I regularly post things that are more ridiculous than that.

It is quite ridiculous, though.

[C J Campbell]

"Victor" > wrote in message
m...
> File a Nasa report.

Probably too late for that -- besides, what is he reporting? He is not
reporting a safety problem with his own flight; he did not bust the
airspace.

[C J Campbell]

I do not agree that the NASA ASRS form will do you any good whatsoever.
First of all, you have already been notified of a possible violation.
Secondly, what are you going to say on it? That you heard a rumor that
somebody else might have violated airspace somewhere? Of course, it will not
hurt anything, either.

You need to get a good aviation attorney in on this as soon as possible and
don't say another word to the feds until you do.

[Bob Gardner]

If there is a competition about dumb comments, yours will surely take the
gold medal.

Bob Gardner

"Dennis O'Connor" > wrote in message
...
> Oh, and most importantly, never, never, never talk to atc unless you are
> absolutely forced to do so... I haven't looked at the sectional for your
> area so you may have had to talk woth them the entire way, but in the
future
> always plan your flying so that you only use atc to get into or out of
> controlled airspace, and then immediately cancel and go back to squawking
> 1200... They are NOT your friend...
> denny
>
> "Chris" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>
> I do not agree that the NASA ASRS form will do you any good
> whatsoever. First of all, you have already been notified of a possible
> violation. Secondly, what are you going to say on it? That you heard
> a rumor that somebody else might have violated airspace somewhere?
> Of course, it will not hurt anything, either.
>
> You need to get a good aviation attorney in on this as soon as possible
> and don't say another word to the feds until you do.
>

Notified of a possible violation? He talked to a ****ed-off approach
controller at the request of Danbury tower. The controller can't make any
connection between the unidentified target on his scope and the guy he spoke
with on the phone. The controller isn't going to go anywhere with this
because there's nowhere for him to go with it.

[Andrew Gideon]

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Hash: SHA1

C J Campbell wrote:

>
> "Victor" > wrote in message
> m...
>> File a Nasa report.
>
> Probably too late for that -- besides, what is he reporting? He is not
> reporting a safety problem with his own flight; he did not bust the
> airspace.

I think an error by ATC constitutes a potential safety issue.

- Andrew

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[Andrew Gideon]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

> Notified of a possible violation? He talked to a ****ed-off approach
> controller at the request of Danbury tower. The controller can't make any
> connection between the unidentified target on his scope and the guy he
> spoke
> with on the phone. The controller isn't going to go anywhere with this
> because there's nowhere for him to go with it.

I think it would be a good idea to do what's necessary to preserve the RADAR
"recording". It should have both aicraft, showing that there are (at
least) two.

- Andrew

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[SeeAndAvoid]

Chris,
Chris here. You have nothing to worry about. Even if this controller was
hellbent on somehow busting you, his supervisor and above would tell
him to chill out and they'll take care of it. They'd then forget about it
as
they cant prove it was you. We have these kind of call-ins all the time,
often the caller admits he's the mode-c intruder we'd been tracking, or
he was squawking a discreet code and blasted through airspace he
shouldnt have, and admits to it. I've yet to see an action taken against
such a pilot who's called in.
Flight following would've taken care of
this problem though, because it'd then be on the controllers back to
make sure HPN tower knows NYC Apch is about to run someone
through their Class D, VFR or not. Maybe that's where this started,
HPN yells at NYC Apch asking if he's working that guy. Well, he's
not and gets offended that HPN, a lowly tower, would assume such
a thing - then the buck gets passed on to you, you get the picture.
If this goes any further, demand to talk directly to the operations
manager at NYC Apch about harrassment without proof.
Chris

[Chris]

Thanks to all who replied. There is not going to be any action taken on this
case. Everything turned out ok when I talked to a supervisor he was very
nice and understanding listen to my story and believed it was just a mistake
on their part told me don't take it personal and just forget they ever had
me call.

Thanks Again to everyone on their views
Chris

[Chip Jones]

"Dennis O'Connor" > wrote in message
...
> Oh, and most importantly, never, never, never talk to atc unless you are
> absolutely forced to do so... I haven't looked at the sectional for your
> area so you may have had to talk woth them the entire way, but in the
future
> always plan your flying so that you only use atc to get into or out of
> controlled airspace, and then immediately cancel and go back to squawking
> 1200... They are NOT your friend...
> denny

LOL, tell that to the lost Cessna pilot I spent 30 minutes finding,
orienting and talking down yesterday right in the middle of the real ATC
stuff I was doing. We had three Centers and two Tracons trying to find this
guy at one point, all because he didn't avail himself of his taxpayer-funded
ATC system for flight following. His CFI was probably an "Us versus Them"
guy like you.

Chip, ZTL

[Newps]

Andrew Gideon wrote:


>
> I think it would be a good idea to do what's necessary to preserve the RADAR
> "recording". It should have both aicraft, showing that there are (at
> least) two.



TRACON radar is not recorded.

[John T]

"Dennis O'Connor" > wrote in message

>
> They are NOT your friend...

Well, they've certainly been very helpful to me, but you're right. That
doesn't make them my "friend", does it?

Now, after I meet a few of the very helpful controllers who I've talked to
over the relatively few years I've been flying (and the especially helpful
one at Norfolk) and thank them properly, *then* they'd be friends, right?

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
____________________

[Billy]

Newps wrote:

> Andrew Gideon wrote:
>
> >
> > I think it would be a good idea to do what's necessary to preserve the RADAR
> > "recording". It should have both aicraft, showing that there are (at
> > least) two.
>
> TRACON radar is not recorded.

Which TRACON are you talking about? No matter where or how the data is being
recorded, the data is being recorded, at least for a short term.

Consider this accident report, that concerned a flight from Caldwell enroute to
Vineyard Haven in July, 1999. The FAA had no trouble replaying the radar data for
this flight through the metro New York City airspace, even at only 1,300 feet near
Caldwell.

"According to radar data, at 2040:59, a target transmitting a visual flight rules
(VFR) code was observed about 1 mile southwest of CDW at an altitude of 1,300
feet. The target proceeded to the northeast, on a course of about 55 degrees,
remaining below 2,000 feet. The target was at 1,400 feet when it reached the
Hudson River. When the target was about 8 miles northwest of the Westchester
County Airport (HPN), White Plains, New York, it turned north over the river and
began to climb. After proceeding north about 6 miles, the target turned eastward
to a course of about 100 degrees. The target continued to climb and reached 5,500
feet about 6 miles northeast of HPN. When the target's course was plotted on a New
York VFR navigational map, the extended course line crossed the island of Martha's
Vineyard.

The target continued eastward at 5,500 feet, passing just north of Bridgeport,
Connecticut, and crossed the shoreline between Bridgeport and New Haven,
Connecticut. The target ground track continued on the 100-degree course, just
south and parallel to the Connecticut and Rhode Island coastlines. After passing
Point Judith, Rhode Island, the target continued over the Rhode Island Sound."

[Newps]

Billy wrote:
>
> Newps wrote:
>
>
>>Andrew Gideon wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I think it would be a good idea to do what's necessary to preserve the RADAR
>>>"recording". It should have both aicraft, showing that there are (at
>>>least) two.
>>
>>TRACON radar is not recorded.
>
>
> Which TRACON are you talking about?

All of 'em.


No matter where or how the data is being
> recorded, the data is being recorded, at least for a short term.

No, it's not. We only record the comm radios and they are preserved for
45 days.


>
> Consider this accident report, that concerned a flight from Caldwell enroute to
> Vineyard Haven in July, 1999. The FAA had no trouble replaying the radar data for
> this flight through the metro New York City airspace, even at only 1,300 feet near
> Caldwell.

Sure, they got those from NY Center. Centers record their radar. Not
sure how long that data is kept.

[Andrew Gideon]

Newps wrote:

> Sure, they got those from NY Center. Centers record their radar. Not
> sure how long that data is kept.

So, after considering what you've written, I'd have to alter what I wrote
to:

I think it would be a good idea to do what's necessary to
preserve the RADAR "recording". It should have both aicraft,
showing that there are (at least) two.

In this new text, I changed all references to TRACON to Center.

- Andrew

[Judah]

Heck - if he had been talking to NY approach, it would have been legal for
him to fly through HPN airspace at 2800', assuming they didn't vector him
around!


"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in
:

>
>
> Dennis O'Connor wrote:
>>
>> Oh, and most importantly, never, never, never talk to atc unless you
>> are absolutely forced to do so...
>
> I disagree. If he *had* been talking to NY approach during this flight,
> they would know for a fact that he didn't bust any airspace.
>
> George Patterson
> Battle, n; A method of untying with the teeth a political knot
> that would
> not yield to the tongue.

[Judah]

Well something somewhere resembling it is...

http://www4.passur.com/hpn.html


Newps > wrote in
news:kkL9c.27238$JO3.26681@attbi_s04:

>
>
> Andrew Gideon wrote:
>
>
>>
>> I think it would be a good idea to do what's necessary to preserve the
>> RADAR "recording". It should have both aicraft, showing that there
>> are (at least) two.
>
>
>
> TRACON radar is not recorded.
>

[Dennis O'Connor]

"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
news:aNE9c.22897$gA5.296261@attbi_s03...
> If there is a competition about dumb comments, yours will surely take the
> gold medal.
>
> Bob Gardner

uhhh gee, thanks...

[Dennis O'Connor]

Not at all ridiculous, CJ.... If it was controlled airspace, or special VFR
conditions, etc., and he had no choice except to communicate, that's one
thing... But, if he is not in controlled airspace and was just being Mr.
Nice Guy and asking for flight following, or other wise keeping his tail
number in the controller's mind, look what it got him - grief...

When I depart an airport vfr, as soon as I am clear of the B/C/whatever/
airspace, I inform the controller that I am returning to advisories and
squawking vfr...

Flight following, or a VFR flight plan, is not a good deal... First the
controller can't fly the airplane for you so why are you waiting on him to
tell you what to do?... Second, if some bozo busts through controlled
airspace nearby, the controller doesn't have the bozo's tail number but he
has yours, guess who comes to his mind... Third, the system is impersonal
and once accused (given you have only your word as proof that it wasn't you)
it will grind you up and spit you out the other end...

You are far, far, better off being just another anonymous blip on his scope
squawking 1200...
And, yes I advise you to change heading and altitude shortly after leaving
the controlled airspace...
I also advise you to clear the ground track on your GPS before each flight
so that YOU have a record of where you flew - and if there is controversy,
save that ground track......
And, I advise you to never tell departure your destination airport - simply
say, "November xyz is departing vfr to the southwest at 3500", then change
to west at 5500, etc., when clear of his airspace...
And no, I am not paranoid - I am a realist who has been watching the FAA for
six decades... Dealing with them when you don't have to, is like dealing
with Dirty Harry - "So tell me, do you feel lucky, Mr. Pilot?"...

denny

> > That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.
> >

[Dennis O'Connor]

Uhhh, don't have anything to share, Dan... Never had any kind of a dust up
with them, and I firmly intend to keep it that way - especially, now that
they are in their post 9/11 hang the GA *******s, mode...
However, some six decades of watching other poor *******s give up their
ticket has been enlightening...

First, I flew when talking to anyone on the radio was a special event...
And I managed to blunder my way around the country without their 'help' and
I still can... Second, ATC is of no use to a VFR flight, so putting yor
tail number in the front of their minds is a no win scenario for you - you
don't get an attaboy for not making an error, and you get hung if they even
suspect that was you who clipped their airspace...
Third, the airspace has become so complex, especially with TFR's popping up
all over the place every time some sports team decides to play, or some
promoter puts on an auto race, that your odds of breaking the "rules" is way
higher than you can calculate...

Example: The controller will not tell you that XYZ University is playing
that day <he doesn't have a clue> as you blithely fly overhead with vfr
flight following, but he will use your recorded radar track/tail-number to
hang you after the fact - so why in the heck, would you deliberately set
yourself up like that? It boggles my mind... Do you also sit on your seat
belt and pet rattlesnakes?

denny

"Dan Luke" > wrote in I
> must suppose you base that opinion on experience. Care to share it?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Dennis O'Connor" > wrote in message
...
>
> Not at all ridiculous, CJ.... If it was controlled airspace, or special
VFR
> conditions, etc., and he had no choice except to communicate, that's one
> thing... But, if he is not in controlled airspace and was just being Mr.
> Nice Guy and asking for flight following, or other wise keeping his tail
> number in the controller's mind, look what it got him - grief...
>

It was controlled airspace, communications with ATC were not required, he
had not asked for flight following.


>
> When I depart an airport vfr, as soon as I am clear of the B/C/whatever/
> airspace, I inform the controller that I am returning to advisories and
> squawking vfr...
>

How does one return to advisories?


>
> Flight following, or a VFR flight plan, is not a good deal... First the
> controller can't fly the airplane for you so why are you waiting on him to
> tell you what to do?
>

VFR flight plans have nothing to do with ATC.


>
> ... Second, if some bozo busts through controlled
> airspace nearby, the controller doesn't have the bozo's tail number but he
> has yours, guess who comes to his mind...
>

If you're receiving flight following when some bozo busts some airspace the
controller knows it wasn't you.


>
> Third, the system is impersonal and once accused (given you have
> only your word as proof that it wasn't you)
> it will grind you up and spit you out the other end...
>

The system can do that regardless what you do.


>
> You are far, far, better off being just another anonymous blip on
> his scope squawking 1200...
> And, yes I advise you to change heading and altitude shortly after leaving
> the controlled airspace...
> I also advise you to clear the ground track on your GPS before each flight
> so that YOU have a record of where you flew - and if there is controversy,
> save that ground track......
> And, I advise you to never tell departure your destination airport -
simply
> say, "November xyz is departing vfr to the southwest at 3500", then
change
> to west at 5500, etc., when clear of his airspace...
> And no, I am not paranoid - I am a realist who has been watching the FAA
for
> six decades... Dealing with them when you don't have to, is like dealing
> with Dirty Harry - "So tell me, do you feel lucky, Mr. Pilot?"...
>

Whether you're paranoid or not cannot be determined from your messages in
these forums. What can be determined from them is that you don't know what
you're talking about.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Dennis O'Connor" > wrote in message
...
>
> Uhhh, don't have anything to share, Dan... Never had any kind of a dust
up
> with them, and I firmly intend to keep it that way - especially, now that
> they are in their post 9/11 hang the GA *******s, mode...
> However, some six decades of watching other poor *******s give up their
> ticket has been enlightening...
>
> First, I flew when talking to anyone on the radio was a special event...
> And I managed to blunder my way around the country without their 'help'
and
> I still can... Second, ATC is of no use to a VFR flight, so putting yor
> tail number in the front of their minds is a no win scenario for you - you
> don't get an attaboy for not making an error, and you get hung if they
even
> suspect that was you who clipped their airspace...
> Third, the airspace has become so complex, especially with TFR's popping
up
> all over the place every time some sports team decides to play, or some
> promoter puts on an auto race, that your odds of breaking the "rules" is
way
> higher than you can calculate...
>
> Example: The controller will not tell you that XYZ University is playing
> that day <he doesn't have a clue> as you blithely fly overhead with vfr
> flight following, but he will use your recorded radar track/tail-number to
> hang you after the fact - so why in the heck, would you deliberately set
> yourself up like that? It boggles my mind... Do you also sit on your
seat
> belt and pet rattlesnakes?
>

How is it you were able to fly so long and learn so little about aviation?

[Rosspilot]

This idea that ATC guys are "out to hang you" or are "not your friend" is just
false in my experience. These guys at the other end of the radio are terrific
.. . . have saved my ass more than once, and I have even done photography for
some of them here in NY.

I don't know how it is where you are, Dennis . . . but here in NY, if you
conduct yourself like a pro, you are treated like one.

The guys and gals in the towers and Tracon ARE our friends when we're working.
They provide first class service.
JMO, worth no more nor less than my allotted .02.


www.Rosspilot.com

[Andrew Gideon]

Rosspilot wrote:

> The guys and gals in the towers and Tracon ARE our friends when we're
> working. They provide first class service.
> JMO, worth no more nor less than my allotted .02.

I was flying over EWR a couple of days ago. ATC was downright friendly to
all the aircraft in the air. The controller, the DC-10 pilot, and I all
expressed amazement that a DC-10 at 4000 would manage to overtake my
Skyhawk at 5000, for example.

I cancelled down south to do a little site-seeing before landing, and the
controller volunteered to stay with me in an advisories mode.

I suspect my wife believes now that IFR/FF is just an excuse for a party
line.

- Andrew

[Chris]

Thanks to all who replied. There is not going to be any action taken on this
case. Everything turned out ok when I talked to a supervisor he was very
nice and understanding listen to my story and believed it was just a mistake
on their part told me don't take it personal and just forget they ever had
me call.

Thanks Again to everyone on their views
Chris

[Jack Allison]

I have to agree with Lee on this one as the controllers in my area are also
EXCELLENT! On one short x-c flight in some haze, I received a traffic
advisory that another aircraft was at 12:00 my altitude, approx. one mile.
While this particular call was later than most, I didn't see the traffic.
Immediately after I head my traffic advisory, I descended and turned. After
about 30 degrees to the right and 200 feet lower, I saw the traffic.
Probably the closest call I've had and I'm not so sure that without flight
following I would have seen the other plane in time.

Sorry Denny but I have to disagree with you. I don't believe ATC is out to
get me.

--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Jack Allison]

Glad to hear that it worked out ok Chris. Thanks for posting.

--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)>

[Dennis O'Connor]

If the visual conditions are such that you cannot see another aircraft in
time to avoid a crash on your own, then it is not truely VFR conditions, now
is it? Time to air file an IFR flight plan and get the man to put green
between you and the bogies... That is ATC's mission...

As far as that call being late - Be aware, when you are vfr, ATC services
are on a time permitting basis... The fact that he called that traffic for
you is nice, but if he had an IFR traffic conflict, or internal phone lines
handing off sector traffic, taking his time you might not have gotten the
call at all - and there you sat all warm and fuzzy, feeling like daddy was
watching over you...

I'm not going to keep beating on the topic because I have made my points...
I like controllers just fine - they are mostly straight up folks, and the
lady atc in the Atlanta sector have downright sexy voices - but you have to
understand the system, and you have to understand human nature, or the
system will eat you...
denny

"Jack Allison" > > Sorry Denny but I have
to disagree with you. I don't believe ATC is out to
> get me.

[Jack Allison]

> and there you sat all warm and fuzzy, feeling like daddy was
> watching over you...

Dang, you assume a lot don't you Denny? Where'd you get that? Whenever on
VFR flight following, I *NEVER* put the Mark-I eyeballs on the back burner.
Just because you don't agree with me, don't assume.


--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[John T]

"Dennis O'Connor" > wrote in message

>
> And, yes I advise you to change heading and altitude shortly after
> leaving the controlled airspace...

Why?

> And, I advise you to never tell departure your destination airport -
> simply say, "November xyz is departing vfr to the southwest at
> 3500", then change to west at 5500, etc., when clear of his
> airspace...

Why?

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
____________________

[Newps]

John T wrote:

> "Dennis O'Connor" > wrote in message
>
>
>>And, yes I advise you to change heading and altitude shortly after
>>leaving the controlled airspace...
>
>
> Why?
>
>
>>And, I advise you to never tell departure your destination airport -
>>simply say, "November xyz is departing vfr to the southwest at
>>3500", then change to west at 5500, etc., when clear of his
>>airspace...
>
>
> Why?

Trying to stay away from the black helicopters.