Discus 2a vs Arcus @ 200km/h - EGC 2013

[Wolf Aviator]

Hi ladies and gents,

Here is a video made by Sebastian Kawa on ECG 2013 at Ostrów in
Poland.

This video presents final glide of his Discus 2a wing to wing with
Arcus flying at 200km/h. As you can see at this speed performance
of 20m span glider is no better than 15m Discus 2a. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xrDLQ61474

quote (1m 8s of video):
"A why they're buying such expensive gliders...".
Regards
Wolf
http://youtube.com/user/WolfTheAviator

[Dan Marotta]

And yet, the Discus2 has the same OLC handicap as the Glasflugel Mosquito...


"Wolf Aviator" > wrote in message
...
> Hi ladies and gents,
>
> Here is a video made by Sebastian Kawa on ECG 2013 at Ostrów in
> Poland.
>
> This video presents final glide of his Discus 2a wing to wing with
> Arcus flying at 200km/h. As you can see at this speed performance
> of 20m span glider is no better than 15m Discus 2a. :)
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xrDLQ61474
>
> quote (1m 8s of video):
> "A why they're buying such expensive gliders...".
> Regards
> Wolf
> http://youtube.com/user/WolfTheAviator
>

[waremark]

On Friday, 19 July 2013 10:47:45 UTC+1, Wolf Aviator wrote:
> Hi ladies and gents,
>
>
>
> Here is a video made by Sebastian Kawa on ECG 2013 at Ostrów in
>
> Poland.
>
>
>
> This video presents final glide of his Discus 2a wing to wing with
>
> Arcus flying at 200km/h. As you can see at this speed performance
>
> of 20m span glider is no better than 15m Discus 2a. :)
>
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xrDLQ61474
>
>
>
> quote (1m 8s of video):
>
> "A why they're buying such expensive gliders...".
>
> Regards
>
> Wolf
>
> http://youtube.com/user/WolfTheAviator

Thanks for the translation and the other info. As an Arcus owner I was rather disappointed! Was the Discus flying in 15m or 18m mode? Do we know how the wing loadings compared?

Mark Burton

[[email protected]]

People will be discussing handicaps and wing loadings and other topics, but I think this just proves what everyone has known all along: Kawa has magic "I get to fly faster than you" powers which transcend the laws of physics :-).

-Mark

[Paul Remde]

Hi,

Of course, the Arcus has a much larger fuselage than a Discus2a so its
performance at high speed will suffer as a result of that.

Paul Remde
____________________________

"waremark" wrote in message
...

On Friday, 19 July 2013 10:47:45 UTC+1, Wolf Aviator wrote:
> Hi ladies and gents,
>
>
>
> Here is a video made by Sebastian Kawa on ECG 2013 at Ostrów in
>
> Poland.
>
>
>
> This video presents final glide of his Discus 2a wing to wing with
>
> Arcus flying at 200km/h. As you can see at this speed performance
>
> of 20m span glider is no better than 15m Discus 2a. :)
>
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xrDLQ61474
>
>
>
> quote (1m 8s of video):
>
> "A why they're buying such expensive gliders...".
>
> Regards
>
> Wolf
>
> http://youtube.com/user/WolfTheAviator

Thanks for the translation and the other info. As an Arcus owner I was
rather disappointed! Was the Discus flying in 15m or 18m mode? Do we know
how the wing loadings compared?

Mark Burton

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

waremark wrote, On 7/19/2013 9:20 AM:
> On Friday, 19 July 2013 10:47:45 UTC+1, Wolf Aviator wrote:
>> Hi ladies and gents,
>>
>>
>>
>> Here is a video made by Sebastian Kawa on ECG 2013 at Ostrów in
>>
>> Poland.
>>
>>
>>
>> This video presents final glide of his Discus 2a wing to wing with
>>
>> Arcus flying at 200km/h. As you can see at this speed performance
>>
>> of 20m span glider is no better than 15m Discus 2a. :)
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xrDLQ61474
>>
>>
>>
>> quote (1m 8s of video):
>>
>> "A why they're buying such expensive gliders...".
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Wolf
>>
>> http://youtube.com/user/WolfTheAviator
>
> Thanks for the translation and the other info. As an Arcus owner I
> was rather disappointed! Was the Discus flying in 15m or 18m mode? Do
> we know how the wing loadings compared?

You don't buy a two seat, 20 meter glider for it's 200 kph performance.
How fast would the Discus go with a 180 lb passenger?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

[Al McNamara]

Thanks for the translation and the other info. As an Arcus owner I was
rather disappointed! Was the Discus flying in 15m or 18m mode? Do we know
how he wing loadings compared?

Mark Burton

Mark

It was a D2a, so 15m. I suspect at or close to max all up weight, so to
comment on a later question in this thead, not carrying carrying a 180 lb
P2, but probably 350 lb of balast.

[Al McNamara]

Thanks for the translation and the other info. As an Arcus owner I was
rather disappointed! Was the Discus flying in 15m or 18m mode? Do we know
how the wing loadings compared?

Mark Burton

Mark

It was a D2a, so 15m. My guess is at or close to Max AUW so to comment on
another later post, not carrying a 180 lb P2, but 350 lb of ballast.

Al

[[email protected]]

Cant be 100 % sure but that does not look like a Discus 2a wing tip.
Rolf

[[email protected]]

On Friday, July 19, 2013 5:01:00 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> Cant be 100 % sure but that does not look like a Discus 2a wing tip.
>
> Rolf

I think Its the same D2a that belonged to Mr.Galetto. It is is the Polish National Team glider, they also own another one, but strangely this one even being form early of production, is of lot better quality than the later production number ones. Interesting proof of that theory is the Lak 12T prototype beating the crap out of several Arcuses and Duo Ds XLTs after several days of competition.
http://www.egc2013.eu/results/20m/37J_20m_tot/
GK

[Craig R.]

On Friday, July 19, 2013 3:01:00 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> Cant be 100 % sure but that does not look like a Discus 2a wing tip.
>
> Rolf

There are 3 generations of wingtips on the Discus 2
-no winglets (upturned wingtips)
-Masak winglets
-Maughmer winglets

Those look like the Maughmer winglets.
Craig R. / D2b driver

[[email protected]]

On Friday, 19 July 2013 18:58:35 UTC-7, Craig R. wrote:
> On Friday, July 19, 2013 3:01:00 PM UTC-7, wrote:
>
> > Cant be 100 % sure but that does not look like a Discus 2a wing tip.
>
> >
>
> > Rolf
>
>
>
> There are 3 generations of wingtips on the Discus 2
>
> -no winglets (upturned wingtips)
>
> -Masak winglets
>
> -Maughmer winglets
>
>
>
> Those look like the Maughmer winglets.
>
> Craig R. / D2b driver

Hard to see what speed they were doing or know what ballast level they were each using.

Flying a fully loaded LS8 against a fully loaded Arcus recently at Hobbs at 95-100kn I was definitely outperformed.

Sebastians D2a is 'slightly' better than a LS8 above 95kn, both full. (ask me how I know).

Nice to see a Std ship doing well but without more real information its hard to draw a hard conclusion relative to the Arcus.

2T

[ALPINTST]

good

[GC[_2_]]

On 20/07/2013 07:19, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> waremark wrote, On 7/19/2013 9:20 AM:
>> Thanks for the translation and the other info. As an Arcus owner I
>> was rather disappointed! Was the Discus flying in 15m or 18m mode? Do
>> we know how the wing loadings compared?
>
> You don't buy a two seat, 20 meter glider for it's 200 kph performance.

If you're an owner who wants to enter it in the European Championships,
I'd say you probably did.

> How fast would the Discus go with a 180 lb passenger?

Even faster! All that matters is the wing loading and the polar. At
that money, the Arcus should have as good a polar as the D2 - it's
nearly 20 years younger. It was probably flying at a higher wing
loading too.

GC

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

GC wrote, On 7/20/2013 7:14 AM:
> On 20/07/2013 07:19, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> waremark wrote, On 7/19/2013 9:20 AM:
>>> Thanks for the translation and the other info. As an Arcus owner I
>>> was rather disappointed! Was the Discus flying in 15m or 18m mode? Do
>>> we know how the wing loadings compared?
>>
>> You don't buy a two seat, 20 meter glider for it's 200 kph performance.
>
> If you're an owner who wants to enter it in the European Championships,
> I'd say you probably did.
>
>> How fast would the Discus go with a 180 lb passenger?
>
> Even faster! All that matters is the wing loading and the polar. At
> that money, the Arcus should have as good a polar as the D2 - it's
> nearly 20 years younger. It was probably flying at a higher wing
> loading too.

I didn't suggest adding 180 lbs, I suggested cramming two people into a
Discus. Surely you don't think two 180 pound people in a Discus would be
able to fly at all, much less faster than an Arcus? But to go with the
flow, it would not increase the wing loading, because you'd have to
remove 180 pounds of ballast. Contest rules, you know.

My I should have added a winking smiley face?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

[Evan Ludeman[_4_]]

So right. The Arcus is a poor performer and anyone that bought one is probably feeling very taken advantage of and likely wants out just to avoid the continuing humiliation. Never mind the waste of money.

Being the helpful sort I am, I'll offer up $75K US to the first seller of a well kept example of the breed who just can't deal with it anymore. After all, that's about the asking price for a nice and much older D2 that can blow its gear doors off....

Waiting by the phone and wondering how on earth I'll ever get anyone to help me put it together at my local club....

-Evan Ludeman / T8

[Papa3[_2_]]

Don't worry about the help. I'll go halvsies with you.

P3 (just trying to help)

On Saturday, July 20, 2013 10:50:42 AM UTC-4, Evan Ludeman wrote:
> So right. The Arcus is a poor performer and anyone that bought one is probably feeling very taken advantage of and likely wants out just to avoid the continuing humiliation. Never mind the waste of money.
>
>
>
> Being the helpful sort I am, I'll offer up $75K US to the first seller of a well kept example of the breed who just can't deal with it anymore. After all, that's about the asking price for a nice and much older D2 that can blow its gear doors off....
>
>
>
> Waiting by the phone and wondering how on earth I'll ever get anyone to help me put it together at my local club....
>
>
>
> -Evan Ludeman / T8

[JS]

T8 and P3 don't need an Arcus. I'll up it to $100k for the old dog, $125k if it can launch it's sad self.
Then perhaps I can get "the scoundrel" Michaud back in the air.
Jim

On Saturday, July 20, 2013 9:59:30 AM UTC-7, Papa3 wrote:
> Don't worry about the help. I'll go halvsies with you.
>
>
>
> P3 (just trying to help)
>
>
>
> On Saturday, July 20, 2013 10:50:42 AM UTC-4, Evan Ludeman wrote:
>
> > So right. The Arcus is a poor performer and anyone that bought one is probably feeling very taken advantage of and likely wants out just to avoid the continuing humiliation. Never mind the waste of money.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Being the helpful sort I am, I'll offer up $75K US to the first seller of a well kept example of the breed who just can't deal with it anymore. After all, that's about the asking price for a nice and much older D2 that can blow its gear doors off....
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Waiting by the phone and wondering how on earth I'll ever get anyone to help me put it together at my local club....
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > -Evan Ludeman / T8

[Kevin Christner]

105 Bid.

On Monday, July 22, 2013 12:51:01 PM UTC-4, JS wrote:
> T8 and P3 don't need an Arcus. I'll up it to $100k for the old dog, $125k if it can launch it's sad self.
>
> Then perhaps I can get "the scoundrel" Michaud back in the air.
>
> Jim
>
>
>
> On Saturday, July 20, 2013 9:59:30 AM UTC-7, Papa3 wrote:
>
> > Don't worry about the help. I'll go halvsies with you.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > P3 (just trying to help)
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > On Saturday, July 20, 2013 10:50:42 AM UTC-4, Evan Ludeman wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > So right. The Arcus is a poor performer and anyone that bought one is probably feeling very taken advantage of and likely wants out just to avoid the continuing humiliation. Never mind the waste of money.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Being the helpful sort I am, I'll offer up $75K US to the first seller of a well kept example of the breed who just can't deal with it anymore. After all, that's about the asking price for a nice and much older D2 that can blow its gear doors off....
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Waiting by the phone and wondering how on earth I'll ever get anyone to help me put it together at my local club....
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > -Evan Ludeman / T8

[[email protected]]

> This video presents final glide of his Discus 2a wing to wing with
>
> Arcus flying at 200km/h. As you can see at this speed performance
>
> of 20m span glider is no better than 15m Discus 2a. :)
>

course not. the drag penalty for the extra span kills you at high speeds. when they slow down the arcus will walk away.

[GC[_2_]]

On 24/07/2013 23:10, wrote:
>
>> This video presents final glide of his Discus 2a wing to wing with
>>
>> Arcus flying at 200km/h. As you can see at this speed performance
>>
>> of 20m span glider is no better than 15m Discus 2a. :)
>>
>
> course not. the drag penalty for the extra span kills you at high
> speeds. when they slow down the arcus will walk away.

When they slow down a Libelle would walk away from both of them. But
that's evading the issue. 200ks (108 kts) is hardly high speed in a
modern glider. When DOES the Arcus earn its keep?

GC

[jfitch]

On Wednesday, July 24, 2013 7:40:07 AM UTC-7, GC wrote:
> On 24/07/2013 23:10, brayera wrote:
>
> >
>
> >> This video presents final glide of his Discus 2a wing to wing with
>
> >>
>
> >> Arcus flying at 200km/h. As you can see at this speed performance
>
> >>
>
> >> of 20m span glider is no better than 15m Discus 2a. :)
>
> >>
>
> >
>
> > course not. the drag penalty for the extra span kills you at high
>
> > speeds. when they slow down the arcus will walk away.
>
>
>
> When they slow down a Libelle would walk away from both of them. But
>
> that's evading the issue. 200ks (108 kts) is hardly high speed in a
>
> modern glider. When DOES the Arcus earn its keep?
>
>
>
> GC

Increasing wing span is the solution to induced drag. At high speeds, Cl is low therefore Ci is low therefore wingspan is no longer the solution. We are not breaking new ground here, this is 100 year old information. However against the Libelle, my money is on the Arcus at any speed.

[waremark]

"When DOES the Arcus earn its keep? "

In a difficult early stage of my task this afternoon with weak climbs, I was embarassed that in my Arcus M (at 750kg) I was struggling to keep up with a less experienced if very promising pilot in a Cirrus. Later in the day, the Cirrus landed in a field and I completed my task satisfactorily.

The Arcus handles like a modern 18m glider, and performs more or less like one except in very strong or very weak conditions. It is also the best handling two seater (I hope I won't become jealous when the ASG32 and Twin Shark are available in the market). Nobody would suggest buying any of these gliders if you did not want a two seater.

Is it good value? Well, you could have just as much 2 seat fun in a K7. When asked about the cost of gliding, I always say that you can have as much fun in a glider you buy for $10k as in a $400k supership, and that people spend as much on their gliders as they want to. I enjoy the feeling that I have the best of its particular type and I guess that's why I spent the money..

Mark Burton, flying an Arcus M and an ASH 26E from London Gliding Club, UK.

On Friday, 19 July 2013 10:47:45 UTC+1, Wolf Aviator wrote:
> Hi ladies and gents,
>
>
>
> Here is a video made by Sebastian Kawa on ECG 2013 at Ostrów in
>
> Poland.
>
>
>
> This video presents final glide of his Discus 2a wing to wing with
>
> Arcus flying at 200km/h. As you can see at this speed performance
>
> of 20m span glider is no better than 15m Discus 2a. :)
>
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xrDLQ61474
>
>
>
> quote (1m 8s of video):
>
> "A why they're buying such expensive gliders...".
>
> Regards
>
> Wolf
>
> http://youtube.com/user/WolfTheAviator

[[email protected]]

"my Arcus M (at 750kg)"

I saw an Arcus being positioned on a grid. It took way to many people to move it. The second day when the owner looked for help every one looked the other way :). The darn thing is just heavy.

[waremark]

It's a 2 seater. It should not need more than 2 to push it. And it does not need much pushing. Tow out, taxi to the front of the grid when ready to go. Having said that, it did not like the soft ground at my club's grass airfield during the winter.

[[email protected]]

On Friday, July 19, 2013 10:47:45 AM UTC+1, Wolf Aviator wrote:
> Hi ladies and gents,
>
>
>
> Here is a video made by Sebastian Kawa on ECG 2013 at Ostrów in
>
> Poland.
>
>
>
> This video presents final glide of his Discus 2a wing to wing with
>
> Arcus flying at 200km/h. As you can see at this speed performance
>
> of 20m span glider is no better than 15m Discus 2a. :)
>
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xrDLQ61474
>
>
>
> quote (1m 8s of video):
>
> "A why they're buying such expensive gliders...".
>
> Regards
>
> Wolf
>
> http://youtube.com/user/WolfTheAviator

The video - its contest day 7 at the EGC Ostrow, 17/7/2013, Sebastian Kawa and Belgian Arcus 2AS both finish at 16:21:11. Sebastian wins the Standard class day (and the comp) and during a relaxing final glide at 200kph in close formation with the Arcus he fills his time by hand filming the other glider. Cool!

John Galloway