Tow banner on a PP license

[Victor]

I have a friend that is purchasing a plane and will start a business
of tow banner. He said I could fly the plane for him without been paid
, this way I can get many hours on my logbook.

Is it legal to do banner towing on a PP license without receiving
payment for it?

[G.R. Patterson III]

Victor wrote:
>
> I have a friend that is purchasing a plane and will start a business
> of tow banner. He said I could fly the plane for him without been paid
> , this way I can get many hours on my logbook.
>
> Is it legal to do banner towing on a PP license without receiving
> payment for it?

No.

George Patterson
Treason is ne'er successful, Sir; what then be the reason? Why, if treason
be successful, Sir, then none dare call it treason.

[Todd Pattist]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote:

>> Is it legal to do banner towing on a PP license without receiving
>> payment for it?
>
>No.

"No" is correct with underlying assumptions, all of which
are likely to be true, like - the operator is charging for
the banner tows, the pilot is not paying for the plane and
fuel, etc. But he could legally tow his own banner in a
plane he rents or owns, so, in a technical sense, the
answer to his question, read carefully, is "yes, in some
very limited circumstances."

Todd Pattist
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)
___
Make a commitment to learn something from every flight.
Share what you learn.

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, (Victor) said:
>I have a friend that is purchasing a plane and will start a business
>of tow banner. He said I could fly the plane for him without been paid
>, this way I can get many hours on my logbook.
>
>Is it legal to do banner towing on a PP license without receiving
>payment for it?

"hours in my logbook" *is* payment, according to FAA prosecutions of
people doing something similar (glider towing is the case I remember most
clearly).

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
When the revolution comes, we'll need a longer wall.
-- Tom De Mulder

[William W. Plummer]

"Victor" > wrote in message
om...
> I have a friend that is purchasing a plane and will start a business
> of tow banner. He said I could fly the plane for him without been paid
> , this way I can get many hours on my logbook.
>
> Is it legal to do banner towing on a PP license without receiving
> payment for it?
From what I've read, banner towing is very dangerous. There are several
operators at LWM in MA, and I remember a pilot getting killed a few years
ago while picking up a banner. It's exhausting work because you are alway
flying on the edge of a stall and need to talk to the other banner planes in
the area for coordination. When I looked into that work, they wanted at
least 500 hours.

[Michael]

Todd Pattist > wrote
> But he could legally tow his own banner in a
> plane he rents or owns

Not unless he gets a waiver from the FSDO.

91.311 Towing: Other than under §91.309.
No pilot of a civil aircraft may tow anything with that aircraft
(other than
under §91.309) except in accordance with the terms of a certificate of
waiver
issued by the Administrator.

No FSDO I know of will issue a banner tow waiver to a pilot who lacks
a commercial certificate, so the point is moot.

Michael

[Tow Chick]

Victor wrote:

> I have a friend that is purchasing a plane and will start a business
> of tow banner. He said I could fly the plane for him without been paid
> , this way I can get many hours on my logbook.
>
> Is it legal to do banner towing on a PP license without receiving
> payment for it?

No. First of all you need a waiver by the FAA before you can tow anything
around, but your mother-in-law in the back seat.

Second, your "friend" is taking somebody's money in consideration of
flying a banner. This alone makes it a commercial operation, whether or
not the pilot is being paid in cash.

Third, even if your "friend" was not taking somebody's money for the
flight, as a PP, the pilot would need to share expenses evenly for the
flight AND have a commonality of purpose.

As an aside, I would note that banner towing is one of the more hazardous
jobs in flying airplanes. It does not have a stellar safety record, and
is not something I would do casually.

[Mike O'Malley]

"William W. Plummer" > wrote in message
news:041ac.28579$gA5.396231@attbi_s03...
>
> "Victor" > wrote in message
> om...
> > I have a friend that is purchasing a plane and will start a business
> > of tow banner. He said I could fly the plane for him without been paid
> > , this way I can get many hours on my logbook.
> >
> > Is it legal to do banner towing on a PP license without receiving
> > payment for it?
> From what I've read, banner towing is very dangerous. There are several
> operators at LWM in MA, and I remember a pilot getting killed a few years
> ago while picking up a banner. It's exhausting work because you are alway
> flying on the edge of a stall and need to talk to the other banner planes in
> the area for coordination. When I looked into that work, they wanted at
> least 500 hours.

Well, I wouldn't call it VERY dangerous, but it is more hazardous than Sunday
morning coffee runs. Unless you fly those in a 60 year old airplane at 300'
while on the edge of a stall, day in and day out :-)

I've spent a few seasons towing in Jersey, and for one, I would NOT be doing it
for free! Aside from it not being legal (see previous posts), you have the
problem of getting on his waiver. You see, once your friend get's a waiver from
the FAA saying his company can tow, every one of his pilots has to have a
checkride with the feds before they're allowed to work for him. I know of only
one person who is on a banner tow waiver with a private, and he was the owner of
said company.

And remember, in additon to flying low and slow all day, day in and day out,
pickups aren't exactly the most natural thing to get used to as well. We'd dive
at the ground at about a 30-40 degree dive (Cubs are DRAGGY airplanes) to get
the required airspeed, and smoothly pull out at the right time, around 10-15'
AGL to snag the banner with our tow hook. Transitioning to a steep zoom climb
(40-50 degrees nose up) and leveling off at 200-300' AGL almost at stall.

In the two summers I worked for this company, I saw 6 accidents of varying
severity, from taxiing mistakes (12 hour days are a LONG time to be in a Cub,
and mistakes happen towards the end) to planes being flipped on their back, no
fatals or serious injuries thank god. That was just at our company. There were
another few others at other companys, one crashing on takeoff and fireballing
(80 gallons of avgas in a Super Cub stalling on climbout is NOT a good
combination)

Don't get me wrong, it was a fun job and I loved every minute of it. But I
wouldn't want to go back and try it again at 100TT, I probibly wouldn't have
survived it.

--
Mike
(and, yes, I plan on going back for a 3rd season)

[Tony Cox]

"Michael" > wrote in message
om...

> No FSDO I know of will issue a banner tow waiver to a pilot who lacks
> a commercial certificate, so the point is moot.

What criteria do they use? There's nothing in the FARs about
needing a commercial cert. Sounds like they are denying freedom
of speech. Why can't private pilots tow their own messages
around if they want to? (Playing devil's advocate here).

[Andrew Sarangan]

(Paul Tomblin) wrote in message >...
> In a previous article, (Victor) said:
> >I have a friend that is purchasing a plane and will start a business
> >of tow banner. He said I could fly the plane for him without been paid
> >, this way I can get many hours on my logbook.
> >
> >Is it legal to do banner towing on a PP license without receiving
> >payment for it?
>
> "hours in my logbook" *is* payment, according to FAA prosecutions of
> people doing something similar (glider towing is the case I remember most
> clearly).

What if you don't log the flights?

[Tow Chick]

Tony Cox wrote:

> "Michael" > wrote in message
> om...
>
> > No FSDO I know of will issue a banner tow waiver to a pilot who lacks
> > a commercial certificate, so the point is moot.
>
> What criteria do they use? There's nothing in the FARs about
> needing a commercial cert. Sounds like they are denying freedom
> of speech. Why can't private pilots tow their own messages
> around if they want to? (Playing devil's advocate here).

You are right, you actually don't need a CP cert to get the waiver. But
the FSDO would certainly be interested in having a friendly conversation at
some point during the process regarding what the waiver would be used for.
They would also be very interested to learn that the PP is planning to
engage in actvities involving a sign be towed for hire if they learned
that.

[BTIZ]

glider towing in the US for PP is authorized per the FARs.. he can log hours
toward additional ratings.. but he can not receive monetary compensation..

FAR91.309

BT

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
> In a previous article, (Victor) said:
> >I have a friend that is purchasing a plane and will start a business
> >of tow banner. He said I could fly the plane for him without been paid
> >, this way I can get many hours on my logbook.
> >
> >Is it legal to do banner towing on a PP license without receiving
> >payment for it?
>
> "hours in my logbook" *is* payment, according to FAA prosecutions of
> people doing something similar (glider towing is the case I remember most
> clearly).
>
> --
> Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
> When the revolution comes, we'll need a longer wall.
> -- Tom De Mulder

[Hilton]

BTIZ wrote:
> glider towing in the US for PP is authorized per the FARs.. he can log
hours
> toward additional ratings.. but he can not receive monetary compensation..
>
> FAR91.309

Perhaps I missed something in 91.309, but logging hours is "compensation" as
in "for hire or compensation".

Hilton

[BTIZ]

"Hilton" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> BTIZ wrote:
> > glider towing in the US for PP is authorized per the FARs.. he can log
> hours
> > toward additional ratings.. but he can not receive monetary
compensation..
> >
> > FAR91.309
>
> Perhaps I missed something in 91.309, but logging hours is "compensation"
as
> in "for hire or compensation".
>
> Hilton
>

I should have elaborated,

FAR61.113(g) Private Pilot Privileges: A private pilot who meets the
requirements of 61.69 of this part may act as pilot in command of an
aircraft towing a glider.

FAR61.69 Glider towing: Experience and training requirements.

If you add in the information found in the FAA FAQ file for Part 61, you
will find that the "intent" is that the PP may log the hours while towing
gliders, and those hours may be used towards additional ratings. This is
directed towards glider "club" operations. It is not "intended" that a PP
may be compensated beyond hours in a log book and a PP cannot tow for a
Commercial Glider tow operation where the "owner" is receiving revenue for
the PP tow services.

Additional information may be found with the Soaring Society of America who
worked with the FAA to get the wording in FAR61.113(g) to allow soaring or
glider club operations who have limited funds and limited power rated pilots
to act as tow pilots.

BT

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Mike O'Malley wrote:
> Well, I wouldn't call it VERY dangerous, but it is more hazardous than Sunday
> morning coffee runs. Unless you fly those in a 60 year old airplane at 300'
> while on the edge of a stall, day in and day out :-)

There are certainly hazards - the one tow operation I know of wrecks at
least one Pawnee a year banner towing.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Tow Chick wrote:
>> Is it legal to do banner towing on a PP license without receiving
>> payment for it?
>
> No. First of all you need a waiver by the FAA before you can tow anything
> around, but your mother-in-law in the back seat.

Not quite - although you cannot tow banners without a waiver, you can
certainly tow gliders without one (and it doesn't have to be your
mother-in-law in the glider, which is somewhat fortunate).

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Todd Pattist]

(Michael) wrote:

>No FSDO I know of will issue a banner tow waiver to a pilot who lacks
>a commercial certificate, so the point is moot.

There's no requirement for the banner tow pilot to have a
commercial license. Nothing in the commercial curriculum is
directed to banner towing. I agree it's the usual case that
waivers are given to CP's, but a high time private pilot
with experience towing gliders and showing banner pickup and
tow training should be able to get the waiver if they can
demonstrate they aren't going to be receiving prohibited
compensation.

Todd Pattist
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)
___
Make a commitment to learn something from every flight.
Share what you learn.

[Mark]

(Victor) wrote in message >...
> I have a friend that is purchasing a plane and will start a business
> of tow banner. He said I could fly the plane for him without been paid
> , this way I can get many hours on my logbook.
>
> Is it legal to do banner towing on a PP license without receiving
> payment for it?

Just a side note....

A friend of mine *was* a banner instructor before 9/11. He said since
then the banner towing business has been severly hurt. With 3 mile
restrictions around most sporting events the business is hurting.

I'm sure some people still tow over beaches or citys. But he said
after 9/11 the lack of need for banner instructors made him go back to
his other CFI/II duties. However, he's glad to be doing somthing
different now. I think his words were "If you think a 2 - 3 hour
student will kill you, try flying with a banner towing student..."

[Robert M. Gary]

"BTIZ" > wrote in message news:<br8ac.64770$1I5.52101@fed1read01>...
> "Hilton" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
> > BTIZ wrote:
> > > glider towing in the US for PP is authorized per the FARs.. he can log
> hours
> > > toward additional ratings.. but he can not receive monetary
> compensation..
> > >
> > > FAR91.309
> >
> > Perhaps I missed something in 91.309, but logging hours is "compensation"
> as
> > in "for hire or compensation".
> >
> > Hilton
> >
>
> I should have elaborated,
>
> FAR61.113(g) Private Pilot Privileges: A private pilot who meets the
> requirements of 61.69 of this part may act as pilot in command of an
> aircraft towing a glider.
>
> FAR61.69 Glider towing: Experience and training requirements.
>
> If you add in the information found in the FAA FAQ file for Part 61, you
> will find that the "intent" is that the PP may log the hours while towing
> gliders, and those hours may be used towards additional ratings. This is
> directed towards glider "club" operations. It is not "intended" that a PP
> may be compensated beyond hours in a log book and a PP cannot tow for a
> Commercial Glider tow operation where the "owner" is receiving revenue for
> the PP tow services.
>
> Additional information may be found with the Soaring Society of America who
> worked with the FAA to get the wording in FAR61.113(g) to allow soaring or
> glider club operations who have limited funds and limited power rated pilots
> to act as tow pilots.
>
> BT


The reason you can tow gliders with a private (assuming the glider
pilot is paying some nominal fee for the tow and the pilot isn't
getting any of it) is because one of the glider associations has a
waver. Just like the ultra light association has FAA wavers.

-Robert

[BTIZ]

>
>
> The reason you can tow gliders with a private (assuming the glider
> pilot is paying some nominal fee for the tow and the pilot isn't
> getting any of it) is because one of the glider associations has a
> waver. Just like the ultra light association has FAA wavers.
>
> -Robert

It's not a waiver if it is published in the FAR.

But the SSA did work with the FAA to get it published.

BT