Reasons to talk to ATC...

[jsmith]

An interesting article in the January 2004 AOPA FLIGHT TRAINING
magazine, Checkride column by Dave Wilkerson.
An article in a recent edition of THE FEDERAL AIR SURGEON'S MEDICAL
BULLETIN (http://www2.faa.gov/avr/aam/fasb597/31.htm)
relates the following:
The average time between an aircraft's last know position (LKP) and
rescue varies widely based on the type of flight plan filed.
When an IFR flight plan is in use, an average of 13 hours and 6 minutes
elapse from the LKP to rescue.
When a VFR flight plan is in use, an average of 37 hours and 18 minutes
elapse from LKP to rescue.
When no flight plan is in use, an average of 42 hours and 24 minutes
elapse from LKP to rescue.
This is incidental information.
The topic of discussion in the article was survival equipment and
questions regarding it on the Private Pilot PTS and the question, "What
does the examiner want to hear?"
The answer given, at least the survival gear outlined at the end of
Chapter 12 of the AIRPLANE FLYING HANDBOOK. (first aid kit, flashlight,
water, knife)

[Cub Driver]

>When a VFR flight plan is in use, an average of 37 hours and 18 minutes
>elapse from LKP to rescue.
>When no flight plan is in use, an average of 42 hours and 24 minutes
>elapse from LKP to rescue.

This is not a very strong motivation to file a flight plan!

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: -- put Cubdriver in subject line!

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[John T]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message

>
> This is not a very strong motivation to file a flight plan!


....but it is strong motivation to receive flight following. :)

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
____________________

[G.R. Patterson III]

Cub Driver wrote:
>
> >When a VFR flight plan is in use, an average of 37 hours and 18 minutes
> >elapse from LKP to rescue.
> >When no flight plan is in use, an average of 42 hours and 24 minutes
> >elapse from LKP to rescue.
>
> This is not a very strong motivation to file a flight plan!

Well, keep in mind that those are averages. Since every once in a while you read
about someone who isn't found for six months, and every time it seems to be someone
who didn't file a flight plan at all, I think there's some incentive.

I'd also like to know how many in each category are never found.

George Patterson
This marriage is off to a shaky start. The groom just asked the band to
play "Your cheatin' heart", and the bride just requested "Don't come home
a'drinkin' with lovin' on your mind".

[ASJ]

John T wrote:

>> This is not a very strong motivation to file a flight plan!
>
>
> ...but it is strong motivation to receive flight following. :)
>

There were no stats relevant to flight following given...

-Andrew

--
Andrew Stanley-Jones | "It's kind of fun to do the impossible."
EE, LongEz N87KJ | -- Walt Disney

[Chris]

G.R. Patterson III wrote:
>
> Cub Driver wrote:
>
>>>When a VFR flight plan is in use, an average of 37 hours and 18 minutes
>>>elapse from LKP to rescue.
>>>When no flight plan is in use, an average of 42 hours and 24 minutes
>>>elapse from LKP to rescue.
>>
>>This is not a very strong motivation to file a flight plan!
>
>
> Well, keep in mind that those are averages. Since every once in a while you read
> about someone who isn't found for six months, and every time it seems to be someone
> who didn't file a flight plan at all, I think there's some incentive.
>
> I'd also like to know how many in each category are never found.
>
> George Patterson
> This marriage is off to a shaky start. The groom just asked the band to
> play "Your cheatin' heart", and the bride just requested "Don't come home
> a'drinkin' with lovin' on your mind".

Well, and I would guess it is also averaged for the whole country. I
think they would find you much faster when busting the Washington DC
ADIZ due to an emergency than when impacting the ground in the desert
out west. They may find you fast in White Sands, but more so because
they blasted a missile through your wings and tracked it (well you
shouldn't be there anyway) ;).

Chris
PP-ASEL
Student Glider Pilot
New Mexico

[SeeAndAvoid]

Here's another reason,
A couple weeks ago I gave this Seneca fuel prices from
Airnav on his route ahead. Where he was going was
$1.00 more a gallon than others I told him about, dont
know where he eventually went. I'm sure somehow
someone on here will tell me I can get in trouble for that.

Other reasons, from my experience on this side of the mic:
General bullshi**ing.
Talking about and comparing equipment, usually avionics.
Heads up on weather.
Terrain alerts, a big issue here out west, for the uninformed.
Other traffic, of course.
In case they need an IFR clearance in a pinch.
Airspace changes on the fly, MOA's, TFR's, etc.
....and did I say just bullshi**ing in general? Which I do more
than my supervisors would prefer.
But check this out, once I actually got an atta-boy for my, well,
non-approved phraseology. This guy comes over on freq, and
you can spot em a mile away when they have that shaky voice.
I usually try to put em at ease. Well, this guy was shaky for a reason,
he was having serious engine trouble and losing altitude in
a mountainous area. The FAA likes to pull tapes and listen to the
time leading up to an incident, which they did here, and heard
my conversational type of ATC. At first they frowned on it,
but the effect it had on relaxing this guy and making flying the
airplane the number one job, gave us a positive outcome. Panic,
especially in a pretty bad looking situation like this one, only
makes matters worse. He didn't panic and got it to a runway.

So in short, you're paying for it (ATC), might as well use it.
Chris

[Cub Driver]

>than when impacting the ground in the desert
>out west.

Or the piney woods here in New Hampshire. (How many years did it take
to find that biz jet that crashed while figuring to land at Lebanon
NH? Three? Four?)

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! www.vivabush.org

[John T]

"ASJ" > wrote in message

>
> There were no stats relevant to flight following given...

No, but the rationale is that if you're already on frequency with flight
following, you will be closer to the IFR stats than the VFR flight plan
stats.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
____________________

[Andrew Gideon]

John T wrote:

> No, but the rationale is that if you're already on frequency with flight
> following, you will be closer to the IFR stats than the VFR flight plan
> stats.

Perhaps. What does ATC upon losing RADAR contact with an IFR? What about
when it loses RADAR contact with a VFR getting advisories?

I don't know the answers, so I'm hoping one of our resident controllers
pipes up. But it is at least possible that a lost IFR contact gets a lot
more attention.

Of course, if the pilot manages to squeeze out a "mayday", you're right.
But I don't know how often this is the case, or how often it is the case
where a pilot cannot manage to call for help on guard.

BTW, why don't radios have a button to press to get guard immediately, akin
to NRST on a GPS? I seem to recall that some CB radios had those, Back
When.

Curiously...

Andrew

[Robert M. Gary]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message >...
> Cub Driver wrote:
> >
> > >When a VFR flight plan is in use, an average of 37 hours and 18 minutes
> > >elapse from LKP to rescue.
> > >When no flight plan is in use, an average of 42 hours and 24 minutes
> > >elapse from LKP to rescue.
> >
> > This is not a very strong motivation to file a flight plan!
>
> Well, keep in mind that those are averages. Since every once in a while you read
> about someone who isn't found for six months, and every time it seems to be someone
> who didn't file a flight plan at all, I think there's some incentive.
>
> I'd also like to know how many in each category are never found.

I assume they'd use median, not mean but again, remember who we are talking about :)

[Newps]

Andrew Gideon wrote:

> Perhaps. What does ATC upon losing RADAR contact with an IFR?

You say "Radar contact lost." If he answers then we'll use nonradar
procedures and so will you. If he doesn't then we find him.


What about
> when it loses RADAR contact with a VFR getting advisories?

The same. If the loss was unexpected then we will find you. If the
loss was not unexpected then we might say "radar contact lost, squawk
VFR."

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
online.com...
>
> Perhaps. What does ATC upon losing RADAR contact with an IFR?
>

Informs the aircraft "radar contact lost" and, if necessary, issues
appropriate nonradar routing.


>
> What about
> when it loses RADAR contact with a VFR getting advisories?
>

Informs the aircraft "radar contact lost, squawk VFR".

[Andrew Gideon]

Newps wrote:

> What about
>> when it loses RADAR contact with a VFR getting advisories?
>
> The same. If the loss was unexpected then we will find you.

So if the loss is unexpected and communication doesn't occur, who gets
notified? And this is the same for both IFR and VFR on advisories? Nice.

- Andrew

[jsmith]

> John T wrote:
> > No, but the rationale is that if you're already on frequency with flight
> > following, you will be closer to the IFR stats than the VFR flight plan
> > stats.

>Andrew Gideon wrote:
> Perhaps. What does ATC upon losing RADAR contact with an IFR?
> What about when it loses RADAR contact with a VFR getting advisories?

Let's see... you had them on radar, then you lost them from the radar.
That becomes the LAST KNOWN POSITION.
They told you their destination.
They may have told you their fuel state.
You had their altitude.
You had their airspeed.
It ain't rocket science!

> BTW, why don't radios have a button to press to get guard immediately, akin
> to NRST on a GPS?

Some radios have had that feature for several years.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
gonline.com...
>
> So if the loss is unexpected and communication doesn't occur, who gets
> notified? And this is the same for both IFR and VFR on advisories?
>

A search is begun when there is unexpected loss of radar contact and radio
communications with any IFR or VFR aircraft.

[Corky Scott]

On Fri, 02 Apr 2004 16:08:43 -0500, Cub Driver
> wrote:

>
>>than when impacting the ground in the desert
>>out west.
>
>Or the piney woods here in New Hampshire. (How many years did it take
>to find that biz jet that crashed while figuring to land at Lebanon
>NH? Three? Four?)
>
>all the best -- Dan Ford
>email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)
>
>The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
>The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
>Viva Bush! www.vivabush.org

Three, and the guy who found it wasn't looking for it. I find it
difficult to understand how they could have missed it all those years
because it was almost directly under the IFR approach to Lebanon.
Right where you'd expect it to be if they were making the approach and
misjudged their location and descended too early. Hit rising terrain
and disappeared into a jungle of broken trees.

The problem was that the previous winter we had a horrendous ice
storm, the likes of which you would never see in a lifetime of living
up here. Three or four inches of ice developed on all trees above a
certain altitude. This snapped trees in half and created a landscape
that hasn't been seen since WWI in many areas. It was into one of
these areas that the hapless Learjet was lost.

Three years later a forester discovered it by literally walking into
it when surveying for logging for the land owners.

It had a cockpit voice recorder and the pilot's voices were still on
it. They did NOT, however, have an ELT and I understand that now
light jets are being required to install them. I also understand that
this Learjet crash is the reason they are now being required.

Corky Scott

[John Galban]

Chris > wrote in message >...
> They may find you fast in White Sands, but more so because
> they blasted a missile through your wings and tracked it (well you
> shouldn't be there anyway) ;).
>

I used to fire missiles at White Sands. Sometimes we had no idea
where the missile went :-( For that reason I wouldn't recommend
flying right on the borders of the restricted areas when there is
activity on the range. Often the missiles don't know where the
restricted area ends and free airspace begins.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Ron Natalie]

"John Galban" > wrote in message om...

> I used to fire missiles at White Sands.

Did White Sands ever fire back?

I had the interesting job of being paid to break into White Sands once.

[Dylan Smith]

In article e.com>, Andrew
Gideon wrote:
> John T wrote:
>
>> No, but the rationale is that if you're already on frequency with flight
>> following, you will be closer to the IFR stats than the VFR flight plan
>> stats.
>
> Perhaps. What does ATC upon losing RADAR contact with an IFR? What about
> when it loses RADAR contact with a VFR getting advisories?

ATC wouldn't just lose contact with me, well, not unless the plane broke
up in mid air, or I just happened to be out of radio contact for some
other reason. I would call 'Mayday' fairly early on so ATC knew that I
was out there and had a problem - I bet they track those a bit more
keenly than some VFR flight following traffic that vanished from their
scope!
--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Ron Natalie]

"Dylan Smith" > wrote in message ...

>
> ATC wouldn't just lose contact with me, well, not unless the plane broke
> up in mid air,

I was getting flight following from Pax River one day (they're very helpful crossing
the Chesapeake Bay as there are a number of frequently hot restricted areas there
and PXT can sometimes arrange a transition even when they are active). Way out
over the Eastern Shore heading to Ocean City, I just got too far away from them
to hear them at my altitude...so I just broadcast cancelling services in the blind and
dialed up 1200. By the time I showed up on the OXB unicom, there were other
planes relaying calls from PXT wanting to make sure I was OK.

ATC is really supposed to be concerned about aircraft that suddenly disappear.
Of course, excrement happens. A few years ago an aircraft was on an instrument
approach into an uncontrolled airport. The pilot upon being told he could switch
to the CTAF frequency, said he'd most likely be back on the missed approach in
a few minutes because the weather was pretty bad. He crashed on the approach and
ATC forgot about him (never cancelled IFR either). The local constables found him
the next day...

[John Galban]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message >...

>
> I had the interesting job of being paid to break into White Sands once.

Working for the Russians? :-) You must have had an easy job of
it. Security was pretty lax most of the time. Whenever I forgot my
badge, my boss would drop hers out the window and I'd use it to get
in. She was short, middle aged, redheaded lady, and I was a skinny,
dark haired, 18 y.o. guy. I once gained access to a TS area buy
pretending I was supposed to be there and showing my drivers' license.
The made me sign in, but said nothing about the case of beer I was
carrying. We stored the beer under the computer room subfloor so it
would be good and cold when we finished work early in the morning.

I certainly hope things are better now, but I doubt it.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Tom Sixkiller]

"John Galban" > wrote in message
om...
> "Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
>...
>
> >
> > I had the interesting job of being paid to break into White Sands once.
>
> Working for the Russians? :-) You must have had an easy job of
> it. Security was pretty lax most of the time. Whenever I forgot my
> badge, my boss would drop hers out the window and I'd use it to get
> in. She was short, middle aged, redheaded lady, and I was a skinny,
> dark haired, 18 y.o. guy. I once gained access to a TS area buy
> pretending I was supposed to be there and showing my drivers' license.
> The made me sign in, but said nothing about the case of beer I was
> carrying. We stored the beer under the computer room subfloor so it
> would be good and cold when we finished work early in the morning.
>
> I certainly hope things are better now, but I doubt it.

Nope (well, MAYBE since 9/11, but I'd not hold my breath) read "Red Cell" by
Richard Marcinko (founder of counter-terrorist group SEAL Team 6). They
actually snuck aboard a nuclear sub and planted false demolition charges and
a slew of other goodies even when the base commanders knew they were coming
and roughly the targets they would try to access.