View Full Version : Puchacz SZD-50-3 S# 2199
Our club was going to purchase Puchacz SZD-50-3 S# 2199 directly from the seller in Poland. We had it inspected, looked at many pictures and we were pretty confident it was a good glider right up until we got a hold of logbook #1 which was in English......
Turns out this glider was totaled by the insurance company when owned by a Canadian soaring club. The seller never made us aware of this fact.
Buyer beware.
Andy
Post Mills Soaring Club
Sean F (F2)
August 9th 13, 02:28 PM
Yikes!
On Friday, August 9, 2013 9:19:47 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> Our club was going to purchase Puchacz SZD-50-3 S# 2199 directly from the seller in Poland. We had it inspected, looked at many pictures and we were pretty confident it was a good glider right up until we got a hold of logbook #1 which was in English......
>
>
>
> Turns out this glider was totaled by the insurance company when owned by a Canadian soaring club. The seller never made us aware of this fact.
>
>
>
> Buyer beware.
>
>
>
> Andy
>
> Post Mills Soaring Club
Steve Leonard[_2_]
August 9th 13, 02:53 PM
Bad on the seller. But... I have seen gliders totaled for a broken canopy.. No kidding. Maybe this one got a wing wiped out, went back to Poland, got a new wing? Or something similar? Discussion has been had here many times. Damaged and repaired is not always bad. But, when a seller knows and says nothing, I agree, Andy. That is bad.
On Friday, August 9, 2013 9:53:18 AM UTC-4, Steve Leonard wrote:
> Bad on the seller. But... I have seen gliders totaled for a broken canopy. No kidding. Maybe this one got a wing wiped out, went back to Poland, got a new wing? Or something similar? Discussion has been had here many times. Damaged and repaired is not always bad. But, when a seller knows and says nothing, I agree, Andy. That is bad.
We have the whole story from the Canadian club, it was not minor by any stretch of the imagination.
On Friday, August 9, 2013 10:07:21 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Friday, August 9, 2013 9:53:18 AM UTC-4, Steve Leonard wrote:
>
> > Bad on the seller. But... I have seen gliders totaled for a broken canopy. No kidding. Maybe this one got a wing wiped out, went back to Poland, got a new wing? Or something similar? Discussion has been had here many times. Damaged and repaired is not always bad. But, when a seller knows and says nothing, I agree, Andy. That is bad.
>
>
>
> We have the whole story from the Canadian club, it was not minor by any stretch of the imagination
Do you know who in Poland repaired it, name of the shop?
On Friday, August 9, 2013 7:00:04 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Friday, August 9, 2013 10:07:21 AM UTC-4, wrote:
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> > On Friday, August 9, 2013 9:53:18 AM UTC-4, Steve Leonard wrote:
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> >
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> > > Bad on the seller. But... I have seen gliders totaled for a broken canopy. No kidding. Maybe this one got a wing wiped out, went back to Poland, got a new wing? Or something similar? Discussion has been had here many times. Damaged and repaired is not always bad. But, when a seller knows and says nothing, I agree, Andy. That is bad.
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> > We have the whole story from the Canadian club, it was not minor by any stretch of the imagination
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> Do you know who in Poland repaired it, name of the shop?
No idea who did the repair. It may be a perfect repair for all we know, it was the lack of disclosure and fear of getting hung up in customs that made us run.
On Monday, August 12, 2013 11:12:41 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Friday, August 9, 2013 7:00:04 PM UTC-4, wrote:
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> > On Friday, August 9, 2013 10:07:21 AM UTC-4, wrote:
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> > > On Friday, August 9, 2013 9:53:18 AM UTC-4, Steve Leonard wrote:
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> > > > Bad on the seller. But... I have seen gliders totaled for a broken canopy. No kidding. Maybe this one got a wing wiped out, went back to Poland, got a new wing? Or something similar? Discussion has been had here many times. Damaged and repaired is not always bad. But, when a seller knows and says nothing, I agree, Andy. That is bad.
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> > > We have the whole story from the Canadian club, it was not minor by any stretch of the imagination
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> > Do you know who in Poland repaired it, name of the shop?
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> No idea who did the repair. It may be a perfect repair for all we know, it was the lack of disclosure and fear of getting hung up in customs that made us run.
If the current owner knew about the accident/repair and he did not disclose this to a potential buyer I would not want to have anything to do with him either. Good catch!
Well, at least the damage was actually recorded in the logbooks... I've come across a few instances where serious damage was done to a glider and repaired in a half arsed way with no logbook entries.
On Wednesday, August 14, 2013 5:04:37 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> Well, at least the damage was actually recorded in the logbooks... I've come across a few instances where serious damage was done to a glider and repaired in a half arsed way with no logbook entries.
Not so sure about that (log book entry). Our discovery was made by contacting a Canadian club and by coincidence they happened to have been the owner and was wrecked when a strong wind ripped it from their hands.
Piotr Szafranski
August 24th 13, 10:40 AM
If you backed out of the deal, could you send me ) contact info of the seller? My club might be considering a purchase of another Puchacz. I would be also grateful for any supplementary information. Thank you.
Dear Andy and all in your club..
I don't know why YOU LIE ?!
We was in contact for a few long months.
I sent you all documents and information I have.
CRS with all details of repair. Log books and ALL DOCUMENTS I HAVE.
I informed you by my self, about scope of repair.
Attention!!!
You have hired a local mechanic to check the glider and you have a full technical report about glider technical conditions, bulletins status, pictures of every element of the glider, etc.......
I don't understand why do you play this game. Probably the reason is I didn't want to sell the glider for the half of price.
You're not as smart as you think.
Post Mills Soaring Club spend money for a technical inspection, phone calls, etc.. and you and your friend tried to push me to sell the glider to you (privately) for a half of price.
When I said NO, you tried to play and force me - as I understand your present news is a SILLY REVANGE ! Good for you :)
Dear Andy and the others, you are LIAR, SWINDLER, PREVARICATOR and you try to rob your collegues from the Post Mills Soaring Club.
No matter what you write about my glider, Puchacz is in great technical condition and flies great. Tail (spare part) was replaced because someone destroyed it.
If you don't know about I will tell you - replacment is better then repair (with a few kg extra on the tail).
Repair was done by factory service - you know that !
Factory service made all test and checkings and ARC was done in the factory cervice - you know that !
goodbye you cheater
W dniu piątek, 9 sierpnia 2013 15:19:47 UTC+2 użytkownik Andy napisał:
> Our club was going to purchase Puchacz SZD-50-3 S# 2199 directly from the seller in Poland. We had it inspected, looked at many pictures and we were pretty confident it was a good glider right up until we got a hold of logbook #1 which was in English......
>
>
>
> Turns out this glider was totaled by the insurance company when owned by a Canadian soaring club. The seller never made us aware of this fact.
>
>
>
> Buyer beware.
>
>
>
> Andy
>
> Post Mills Soaring Club
JJ Sinclair[_2_]
October 4th 13, 02:54 PM
Andy and all,
I believe the term "Totaled" is more appropriately used with used cars, not with aircraft. Most insurance companies will pay the insured value (minus deductible), when the repair estimate approaches 80%. I have also seen gliders with very little damage, sold for salvage, because the owner stated in writing that he no longer wanted to fly the damaged ship. The ship is sold on the salvage market and people like me bid on them. The first ship I bought was a Grob 103 that spun turning final at Calistoga. I put it in my barn and waited for a replacement right wing to show up. About 2 years later a G-103 was totaled in a hangar fire in Georgia............with a undamaged right wing. That was over 30 years ago and that Grob is still flying today. I bet we repaired at least 20 "totaled" gliders over the years including a Puchacz that was sold to a club in Brazil. I told them what repairs had been made and they were happy as a lark. The ship I have flown for the last 10 years, was "totaled" by the insurance company because a replacement left wing was not available. I got the OK from one of the designers to repair the damaged wing. I accomplished the repair, proof loaded the wing to 5.3 G's and have flown the ship for 1000 hours! IMHO, There is nothing wrong with a badly broken ship that has been properly repaired, inspected and flown. The value will normally be about 5K less and bargains can be had.
Cheers,
JJ
Andy[_13_]
October 4th 13, 04:57 PM
As I've said many times the damage was not ever disclosed to us.
I'm now in possession of photographs of this damage and you can call it what you like but it was major damage with large holes punched through the wing, etc., and again there was never any mention of this by the seller or the inspector.
It wasn't until we were sent logbook # 1 and saw that it was in English that we realized something didn't seem right. We then got in contact with the original owner and got the whole story.
I've never said there's anything wrong with the glider now, the and while the repair may be perfect you can't sell a glider without disclosing all of the damage history. We were only told about damage to the rudder hinges from being backed into a hangar wall.
On Friday, August 9, 2013 9:19:47 AM UTC-4, Andy wrote:
> Our club was going to purchase Puchacz SZD-50-3 S# 2199 directly from the seller in Poland. We had it inspected, looked at many pictures and we were pretty confident it was a good glider right up until we got a hold of logbook #1 which was in English......
>
>
>
> Turns out this glider was totaled by the insurance company when owned by a Canadian soaring club. The seller never made us aware of this fact.
>
>
>
> Buyer beware.
>
>
>
> Andy
>
> Post Mills Soaring Club
On Friday, October 4, 2013 9:54:11 AM UTC-4, JJ Sinclair wrote:
> Andy and all, I believe the term "Totaled" is more appropriately used with used cars, not with aircraft. Most insurance companies will pay the insured value (minus deductible), when the repair estimate approaches 80%. I have also seen gliders with very little damage, sold for salvage, because the owner stated in writing that he no longer wanted to fly the damaged ship. The ship is sold on the salvage market and people like me bid on them. The first ship I bought was a Grob 103 that spun turning final at Calistoga. I put it in my barn and waited for a replacement right wing to show up. About 2 years later a G-103 was totaled in a hangar fire in Georgia............with a undamaged right wing. That was over 30 years ago and that Grob is still flying today. I bet we repaired at least 20 "totaled" gliders over the years including a Puchacz that was sold to a club in Brazil. I told them what repairs had been made and they were happy as a lark. The ship I have flown for the last 10 years, was "totaled" by the insurance company because a replacement left wing was not available. I got the OK from one of the designers to repair the damaged wing. I accomplished the repair, proof loaded the wing to 5.3 G's and have flown the ship for 1000 hours! IMHO, There is nothing wrong with a badly broken ship that has been properly repaired, inspected and flown. The value will normally be about 5K less and bargains can be had. Cheers, JJ
We have "totalled" glider number 12 in our shop now. The rest are all back from the dead. Most older gliders are one serious damage event from not being economically repairable in the major shops. Most of ours have sold for about 10-15% below ship with no damage history. Offset this with maybe a new canopy and fresh refinish and the gap closes.
Some people don't want a glider with major repair history. This creates an opportunity for others.
FWIW
UH
JJ Sinclair[_2_]
October 5th 13, 07:48 AM
On Friday, October 4, 2013 8:57:22 AM UTC-7, Andy wrote:
> As I've said many times the damage was not ever disclosed to us.
>
>
>
> I'm now in possession of photographs of this damage and you can call it what you like but it was major damage with large holes punched through the wing, etc., and again there was never any mention of this by the seller or the inspector.
>
>
>
> It wasn't until we were sent logbook # 1 and saw that it was in English that we realized something didn't seem right. We then got in contact with the original owner and got the whole story.
>
>
>
> I've never said there's anything wrong with the glider now, the and while the repair may be perfect you can't sell a glider without disclosing all of the damage history. We were only told about damage to the rudder hinges from being backed into a hangar wall.
>
>
>
> On Friday, August 9, 2013 9:19:47 AM UTC-4, Andy wrote:
>
> > Our club was going to purchase Puchacz SZD-50-3 S# 2199 directly from the seller in Poland. We had it inspected, looked at many pictures and we were pretty confident it was a good glider right up until we got a hold of logbook #1 which was in English......
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Turns out this glider was totaled by the insurance company when owned by a Canadian soaring club. The seller never made us aware of this fact.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Buyer beware.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
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> > Andy
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> >
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> > Post Mills Soaring Club
Not to belabor the point, but the owner is seldom a good source of information as to the reparability of his or her broken ship. I once got a G-102 out of the Vancouver club who had flown it into a fence. It had 4 big holes in the wings, all readably repairable. All it needed was someone like me who was willing to work at half shop rate to do it. Ships like this become "shop projects" and are worked on during slow months. The Vancouver Club told the Canadian FAA that the ship was destroyed and de-registered it! I needed the Canadian registration to import it and register it in the US. Luckily, I was able to get Transport Canada to put it back on Canadian registration, so I could properly de-register it in Canada and re-register it in the US.
For sure the repair station must disclose the full extent of all repairs. I remember a repair shop (no longer in business)who advertised a ship that had experienced an un-assister landing.............The pilot bailed out!! Can't call that full disclosure, now can we? Speaking of bailouts, we did repair an LS-3 that the owner had bailed out of, well we got a set of good wings from a Texas "landing in wind shear", accident and pieced the fuselage back together with parts from both ships. I test flew it and the owner willingly climbed in and strapped that puppy on for another go!
While I'm on my soap box, lets cover some pet peeves I have with "totaled" gliders. First off the instruments no longer belong to the previous owner. When the insurance company pays the insured value, (minus deductible), the listed instruments now belong to the insurance company. If I am awarded the high bid, they now belong to me! Many times I have had to contact the adjuster who in turn contacts the club president who in turn contacts the club members who walked off with what ever they liked.
Next problem; Just because the ship has been in a serious accident, doesn't mean it is destroyed (see Vancouver club above). Please take it apart with the same care you used in assembling it. I once got a Cirrus that had the control rods hack-sawed off not 6 inches from the quick disconnects! Then there was the G-103 that the club members had used a crowbar to remove the wings (aft lift fitting was slightly bent, so wings wouldn't slide out easily.
Sorry about the rant..............I feel much better now!
JJ
Dan Marotta
October 5th 13, 04:05 PM
....And to back up JJ a bit...
My partner and I bought our first LS-6a, the 1985 world champion (flown by
DJ), from the estate of it's previous owner. He'd come down through a power
line and a fence and died in the crash. Streifeneder (Sp?) was brought over
from Germany and repaired the ship to what looked like factory new
condition.
My partner crashed that ship in a low altitude stall/spin (he survived!) and
Fidel at Applebay's shop created a new nose by taking a mold of another LS-6
fuselage. He repaired the tail boom (broken in two places), the twisted fin
and tail mount, and the wings. All this ship needs is cockpit controls,
seat, and instrument panel and someone to step up with the money to finish
the job.
Anyone who's seen Fidel's work would have no problem owning this ship.
"JJ Sinclair" > wrote in message
...
On Friday, October 4, 2013 8:57:22 AM UTC-7, Andy wrote:
> As I've said many times the damage was not ever disclosed to us.
>
>
>
> I'm now in possession of photographs of this damage and you can call it
> what you like but it was major damage with large holes punched through the
> wing, etc., and again there was never any mention of this by the seller or
> the inspector.
>
>
>
> It wasn't until we were sent logbook # 1 and saw that it was in English
> that we realized something didn't seem right. We then got in contact with
> the original owner and got the whole story.
>
>
>
> I've never said there's anything wrong with the glider now, the and while
> the repair may be perfect you can't sell a glider without disclosing all
> of the damage history. We were only told about damage to the rudder hinges
> from being backed into a hangar wall.
>
>
>
> On Friday, August 9, 2013 9:19:47 AM UTC-4, Andy wrote:
>
> > Our club was going to purchase Puchacz SZD-50-3 S# 2199 directly from
> > the seller in Poland. We had it inspected, looked at many pictures and
> > we were pretty confident it was a good glider right up until we got a
> > hold of logbook #1 which was in English......
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Turns out this glider was totaled by the insurance company when owned by
> > a Canadian soaring club. The seller never made us aware of this fact.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Buyer beware.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Andy
>
> >
>
> > Post Mills Soaring Club
Not to belabor the point, but the owner is seldom a good source of
information as to the reparability of his or her broken ship. I once got a
G-102 out of the Vancouver club who had flown it into a fence. It had 4 big
holes in the wings, all readably repairable. All it needed was someone like
me who was willing to work at half shop rate to do it. Ships like this
become "shop projects" and are worked on during slow months. The Vancouver
Club told the Canadian FAA that the ship was destroyed and de-registered it!
I needed the Canadian registration to import it and register it in the US.
Luckily, I was able to get Transport Canada to put it back on Canadian
registration, so I could properly de-register it in Canada and re-register
it in the US.
For sure the repair station must disclose the full extent of all repairs. I
remember a repair shop (no longer in business)who advertised a ship that had
experienced an un-assister landing.............The pilot bailed out!! Can't
call that full disclosure, now can we? Speaking of bailouts, we did repair
an LS-3 that the owner had bailed out of, well we got a set of good wings
from a Texas "landing in wind shear", accident and pieced the fuselage back
together with parts from both ships. I test flew it and the owner willingly
climbed in and strapped that puppy on for another go!
While I'm on my soap box, lets cover some pet peeves I have with "totaled"
gliders. First off the instruments no longer belong to the previous owner.
When the insurance company pays the insured value, (minus deductible), the
listed instruments now belong to the insurance company. If I am awarded the
high bid, they now belong to me! Many times I have had to contact the
adjuster who in turn contacts the club president who in turn contacts the
club members who walked off with what ever they liked.
Next problem; Just because the ship has been in a serious accident, doesn't
mean it is destroyed (see Vancouver club above). Please take it apart with
the same care you used in assembling it. I once got a Cirrus that had the
control rods hack-sawed off not 6 inches from the quick disconnects! Then
there was the G-103 that the club members had used a crowbar to remove the
wings (aft lift fitting was slightly bent, so wings wouldn't slide out
easily.
Sorry about the rant..............I feel much better now!
JJ
October 12th 13, 05:10 PM
The ships do gain a little weight with repair but if structurally sound, why not!
October 14th 13, 01:01 AM
It is not enough to have a logbook sign off for damage to a glider. You need to ask what documentation was used to guide the repair, also find out if factory approved materials were used. Those two items should be in the sign off no matter if it is a Type Certificated or Experimental glider. Not every fiberglass cloth and resin system was created equal.
An East coast shop recently repaired a tail boom that had been incorrectly repaired and no sign off was to be found. There was 3 layers of fiberglass where there should have been 5. If the person who did the repair did not know the correct number of plys to use they most likely did not used the correct cloth or weave orientation. Or any other approved materials.
Buyer beware indeed, one key component of that is to hire someone who really knows glider repairs to inspect the glider and the logbook looking for red flags. For instance a entry claiming "entire aircraft re-finished" without a following entry about the mass and moments of the newly painted control surfaces is a big red flag.
Robert Mudd
Composite Aircraft Repair
Moriarty, New Mexico
Dave Nadler
October 16th 13, 05:37 PM
On Sunday, October 13, 2013 8:01:05 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> For instance a entry claiming "entire aircraft re-finished"
> without a following entry about the mass and moments of the
> newly painted control surfaces is a big red flag.
A savvy shop will also measure and record in the logbook
control surface mass and moments BEFORE making any repair
or refinish. There are planes out there with control
surfaces that may not meet spec, from prior non-standard
repairs or refinish work. The shop will want to protect
against that and show the changes from their work...
Be careful out there,
Best Regards, Dave
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