Top five winch experts/consultants in the US?

[[email protected]]

Looking to get "professional" advice in setting up a winch operation for our small glider operation. Who would you consider the top four experts/consultants in the US, and why? Geographical location is of no concern. Thanks in advance!

[Frank Whiteley]

On Tuesday, August 20, 2013 4:18:02 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> Looking to get "professional" advice in setting up a winch operation for our small glider operation. Who would you consider the top four experts/consultants in the US, and why? Geographical location is of no concern. Thanks in advance!

Who wants to know? Check in at the yahoogroup winchdesign

[Thomas Van de Velde]

On Tuesday, August 20, 2013 3:18:02 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> Looking to get "professional" advice in setting up a winch operation for our small glider operation. Who would you consider the top four experts/consultants in the US, and why? Geographical location is of no concern. Thanks in advance!

Don Ingraham runs a commercial winch operation out of Faribault, MN. I'd consider him an expert. (He wrote "Landing Out - The Final Four Minutes" with Bob Wander)

http://www.crosscountrysoaring.com/contact.html

[Bill T]

Bill Daniels, Steve Pachora ( I know I spelled it wrong), Roman Designs winches.
Last two are with Assoc Glider Clubs of So Cal (AGCSC)

[GM]

Am Mittwoch, 21. August 2013 00:18:02 UTC+2 schrieb :
> Looking to get "professional" advice in setting up a winch operation for our small glider operation. Who would you consider the top four experts/consultants in the US, and why? Geographical location is of no concern. Thanks in advance!

If you want to see a fairly well organized winch operation and a well functioning club-built winch, get in touch with the Carolina Soaring Association or CSA fro short ( www.carolinasoaring.org )and sign up for our up-coming winch clinic in September.

Uli
Winchmeister of CSA

[Echo]

On Tuesday, August 20, 2013 7:29:42 PM UTC-5, Thomas Van de Velde wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 20, 2013 3:18:02 PM UTC-7, wrote:
>
> > Looking to get "professional" advice in setting up a winch operation for our small glider operation. Who would you consider the top four experts/consultants in the US, and why? Geographical location is of no concern. Thanks in advance!
>
>
>
> Don Ingraham runs a commercial winch operation out of Faribault, MN. I'd consider him an expert. (He wrote "Landing Out - The Final Four Minutes" with Bob Wander)
>
>
>
> http://www.crosscountrysoaring.com/contact.html

Commercial, indeed. $60/hr for the CFI and $35 for a 1500ft winch launch in YOUR OWN GLIDER? Holy smokes...I pay less than that for an aerotow to 2,000ft at some clubs. Maybe they built that sucker with a reactor from the U..S.S Enterprise that requires plutonium rods for fuel? I'll skip the winch endorsement for now. Winch launching really should have caught on by now in the US with Avgas at $6+. Our club tonight discussed the possibility of a winch set-up, since a price like $10/launch would be much more reasonable. This sport really could be cheap (read, affordable) and attract people instead of shrinking and forcing people out....if only we could collectively get our heads out of the golden sand to do a little math.

E

[son_of_flubber]

On Sunday, August 25, 2013 1:15:02 AM UTC-4, Echo wrote:
> Commercial, indeed. $60/hr for the CFI and $35 for a 1500ft winch launch in YOUR OWN GLIDER? Holy smokes...

Maybe these prices are not affordable for you, but they seem reasonable for a commercial operation that wants to break even in the long run.

Most clubs charge too little. If they had charged slightly higher rates for the last 30 years, they would now have the money in the bank to buy a new glass two-seater to replace their venerable 2-33.

[son_of_flubber]

On Tuesday, August 20, 2013 6:18:02 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> Looking to get "professional" advice in setting up a winch operation for our small glider operation. Who would you consider the top four experts/consultants in the US, and why?

What qualifications would a winching expert/consultant hold? This is obviously a debatable point, but here's my guesstimate for starters.

1.A mastery of winching theory, principles, and numbers, a through understanding of all of the different opinions about how to launch safely, a well thought out position on how to winch safely, and the ability to communicate that (in English) to novices and non-technical people.

2.A hands-on track record of safe winch launches, say 5000-10000 launches in the last 5 years.

3.Experience operating five different winches of various designs and situations.

4.Lead responsibility for setting up (and operating)winch operations at five different sites within the last 10 years.

I'd guess that there are people in the world that have this level of expertise (and more).

[Echo]

On Sunday, August 25, 2013 8:09:02 AM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Sunday, August 25, 2013 1:15:02 AM UTC-4, Echo wrote:
>
> > Commercial, indeed. $60/hr for the CFI and $35 for a 1500ft winch launch in YOUR OWN GLIDER? Holy smokes...
>
>
>
> Maybe these prices are not affordable for you, but they seem reasonable for a commercial operation that wants to break even in the long run.
>
>
>
> Most clubs charge too little. If they had charged slightly higher rates for the last 30 years, they would now have the money in the bank to buy a new glass two-seater to replace their venerable 2-33.

So arguably the best club in the country that currently owns a K21, LS6, LS4, L23, L33, two towplanes...but has the lowest dues and tow rates around.....

Basic economics here. They have a lot of members, because it is affordable.. The majority of them aren't very active, but they pay dues because they can justify the relatively low cost. This lowers the overhead for everyone, thus reducing dues and keeping tows affordable. They've had a great history of great people which has allowed them to build this membership as well.. When people ask me where to get a glider rating, I send them to a club, every time. Clubs like that are the engine that jump starts the professional and sport aviation careers of people like myself and countless others.

E

[Nigel Pocock[_2_]]

At 22:18 20 August 2013, wrote:
>Looking to get "professional" advice in setting up a winch operation for
>our small glider operation. Who would you consider the top four
>experts/consultants in the US, and why? Geographical location is of no
>concern. Thanks in advance!
>
Since geographical location is of no concern why restrict this enquiry to
the US? Europe has far more experience of winch operations - particularly
Germany. They probably do more winch launches per weekend than the US does
in a year.

Incidentaly we had a rather busy day at our club a couple of weeks ago with
the international vintage glider meeting with 267 winch launches in a day.
Gliders ranges fron a 2 seat primary to an AS25.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Sunday, August 25, 2013 8:32:22 AM UTC-6, Echo wrote:
> On Sunday, August 25, 2013 8:09:02 AM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
>
> > On Sunday, August 25, 2013 1:15:02 AM UTC-4, Echo wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > Commercial, indeed. $60/hr for the CFI and $35 for a 1500ft winch launch in YOUR OWN GLIDER? Holy smokes...
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Maybe these prices are not affordable for you, but they seem reasonable for a commercial operation that wants to break even in the long run.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Most clubs charge too little. If they had charged slightly higher rates for the last 30 years, they would now have the money in the bank to buy a new glass two-seater to replace their venerable 2-33.
>
>
>
> So arguably the best club in the country that currently owns a K21, LS6, LS4, L23, L33, two towplanes...but has the lowest dues and tow rates around.....
>
>
>
> Basic economics here. They have a lot of members, because it is affordable. The majority of them aren't very active, but they pay dues because they can justify the relatively low cost. This lowers the overhead for everyone, thus reducing dues and keeping tows affordable. They've had a great history of great people which has allowed them to build this membership as well. When people ask me where to get a glider rating, I send them to a club, every time. Clubs like that are the engine that jump starts the professional and sport aviation careers of people like myself and countless others.
>
>
>
> E

That chapter is a 501(c)(3), which I promote. I believe the LS-6b was donated and I believe they have secured member donations in the past to buy other gliders. They also have a $100k fund (Cloud Fund) for promotion to youth, also donated. In this type of organization, it's possible for some or all of the joining fees and dues to be tax deductible. It it currently the 12th largest. So I think it's both economics of scale plus an effective business model and perhaps an affinity for this type of organization that keeps inactive members supportive. There is no problem with a charitable non-profit organization making a profit. The profit must go towards the stated purpose of the organization.

We have a new chapter forming here in Colorado. Their intent is to apply for a 501(c)(3) determination and be a winch based operation. Part of this 501(c)(4)political mess created large back logs within the IRS approval process. Not because of the targeted review argument, because all applications are reviewed by a case agent, but because of the tens of thousands of applicants for the political re-education NPO's. It took the 501(c)(3) application process from as little at 42 days to 9 months, then 14 months. So I know of at least one in the pipeline, that was initially responded to in January, another that was held back for a period until some of this started to settle, and this new start-up. At the moment we have something like 25 or 26 chapters with 501(c)(3) determinations. We had at least two clubs lose there 501(c)(7) determinations this year due to failure to file their 990N, and one regional 501(c)(3) also, for apparently the same reason. We have about 35 other clubs/chapters that have 501(c)(7) tax exemptions.

A large club with a 501(c)(3) determination will find that it's worth about $30,000-$60,000/year and potentially much more. Are there other models? Certainly. The largest US gliding club has a layered business structure and no tax exemptions for either entity. Another is both a club and business member.

Frank Whiteley

[Bill D]

On Tuesday, August 20, 2013 4:18:02 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> Looking to get "professional" advice in setting up a winch operation for our small glider operation. Who would you consider the top four experts/consultants in the US, and why? Geographical location is of no concern. Thanks in advance!

It's difficult for one "expert" to conduct new operation training - you really need two people. There should be one at the winch training winch operators and a CFI-G in the glider training the club's flight instructors on winch technique.

[Echo]

On Sunday, August 25, 2013 7:29:55 PM UTC-5, Frank Whiteley wrote:
> On Sunday, August 25, 2013 8:32:22 AM UTC-6, Echo wrote:
>
> > On Sunday, August 25, 2013 8:09:02 AM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > On Sunday, August 25, 2013 1:15:02 AM UTC-4, Echo wrote:
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > Commercial, indeed. $60/hr for the CFI and $35 for a 1500ft winch launch in YOUR OWN GLIDER? Holy smokes...
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Maybe these prices are not affordable for you, but they seem reasonable for a commercial operation that wants to break even in the long run.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Most clubs charge too little. If they had charged slightly higher rates for the last 30 years, they would now have the money in the bank to buy a new glass two-seater to replace their venerable 2-33.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > So arguably the best club in the country that currently owns a K21, LS6, LS4, L23, L33, two towplanes...but has the lowest dues and tow rates around....
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Basic economics here. They have a lot of members, because it is affordable. The majority of them aren't very active, but they pay dues because they can justify the relatively low cost. This lowers the overhead for everyone, thus reducing dues and keeping tows affordable. They've had a great history of great people which has allowed them to build this membership as well. When people ask me where to get a glider rating, I send them to a club, every time. Clubs like that are the engine that jump starts the professional and sport aviation careers of people like myself and countless others.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > E
>
>
>
> That chapter is a 501(c)(3), which I promote. I believe the LS-6b was donated and I believe they have secured member donations in the past to buy other gliders. They also have a $100k fund (Cloud Fund) for promotion to youth, also donated. In this type of organization, it's possible for some or all of the joining fees and dues to be tax deductible. It it currently the 12th largest. So I think it's both economics of scale plus an effective business model and perhaps an affinity for this type of organization that keeps inactive members supportive. There is no problem with a charitable non-profit organization making a profit. The profit must go towards the stated purpose of the organization.
>
>
>
> We have a new chapter forming here in Colorado. Their intent is to apply for a 501(c)(3) determination and be a winch based operation. Part of this 501(c)(4)political mess created large back logs within the IRS approval process. Not because of the targeted review argument, because all applications are reviewed by a case agent, but because of the tens of thousands of applicants for the political re-education NPO's. It took the 501(c)(3) application process from as little at 42 days to 9 months, then 14 months. So I know of at least one in the pipeline, that was initially responded to in January, another that was held back for a period until some of this started to settle, and this new start-up. At the moment we have something like 25 or 26 chapters with 501(c)(3) determinations. We had at least two clubs lose there 501(c)(7) determinations this year due to failure to file their 990N, and one regional 501(c)(3) also, for apparently the same reason. We have about 35 other clubs/chapters that have 501(c)(7) tax exemptions.
>
>
>
> A large club with a 501(c)(3) determination will find that it's worth about $30,000-$60,000/year and potentially much more. Are there other models? Certainly. The largest US gliding club has a layered business structure and no tax exemptions for either entity. Another is both a club and business member.
>
>
>
> Frank Whiteley

The 6 was donated, but I'm not sure about member donations toward gliders. Not as far as I know.

[[email protected]]

Le dimanche 25 août 2013 18:22:43 UTC+2, Nigel Pocock a écrit*:

>
> Since geographical location is of no concern why restrict this enquiry to
>
> the US? Europe has far more experience of winch operations - particularly
>
> Germany. They probably do more winch launches per weekend than the US does
>
> in a year.

Excellent suggestion. I would contact the people at Oerlinghausen (http://www.luftsportzentrum-oerlinghausen.de/index.php). There are no less than 14 clubs on the single airfield of Oerlinghausen, with 5 winch launch runways in use... 50 000 movements/year. And a very good safety record.