which frequencies are all?

[Arden Prinz]

I was approaching class C airspace for landing at the primary airport
for which the class C airspace is designated and I listened to the
ATIS. The ATIS said "all frequencies are combined on
<TowerFrequency>". So I tuned to <TowerFrequency> and made my radio
call to approach. The response that I got was that I needed to call
approach on the approach frequency. So, I guess that begs the
question ... when the ATIS says "all frequencies are combined", which
frequencies are included in "all frequencies"?

Thank-you in advance.

[Ryan]

I would have done the same thing. Maybe it meant only if you were landing
in the Class C.

"Arden Prinz" > wrote in message
om...
> I was approaching class C airspace for landing at the primary airport
> for which the class C airspace is designated and I listened to the
> ATIS. The ATIS said "all frequencies are combined on
> <TowerFrequency>". So I tuned to <TowerFrequency> and made my radio
> call to approach. The response that I got was that I needed to call
> approach on the approach frequency. So, I guess that begs the
> question ... when the ATIS says "all frequencies are combined", which
> frequencies are included in "all frequencies"?
>
> Thank-you in advance.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Arden Prinz" > wrote in message
om...
>
> I was approaching class C airspace for landing at the primary airport
> for which the class C airspace is designated and I listened to the
> ATIS. The ATIS said "all frequencies are combined on
> <TowerFrequency>". So I tuned to <TowerFrequency> and made
> my radio call to approach. The response that I got was that I
> needed to call approach on the approach frequency. So, I guess
> that begs the question ... when the ATIS says "all frequencies are
> combined", which frequencies are included in "all frequencies"?
>

Based on the tower's reply, it appears "all frequencies" means tower, ground
control, and clearance delivery frequencies. But that doesn't mean your
assumption was unreasonable.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Ryan" <f> wrote in message ...
>
> I would have done the same thing. Maybe it meant only if you
> were landing in the Class C.
>

He was.

[Otis Winslow]

One controller was running all those positions perhaps?

+
"Arden Prinz" > wrote in message
om...
> I was approaching class C airspace for landing at the primary airport
> for which the class C airspace is designated and I listened to the
> ATIS. The ATIS said "all frequencies are combined on
> <TowerFrequency>". So I tuned to <TowerFrequency> and made my radio
> call to approach. The response that I got was that I needed to call
> approach on the approach frequency. So, I guess that begs the
> question ... when the ATIS says "all frequencies are combined", which
> frequencies are included in "all frequencies"?
>
> Thank-you in advance.

[Neil Gould]

Recently, Arden Prinz > posted:

> I was approaching class C airspace for landing at the primary airport
> for which the class C airspace is designated and I listened to the
> ATIS. The ATIS said "all frequencies are combined on
> <TowerFrequency>". So I tuned to <TowerFrequency> and made my radio
> call to approach. The response that I got was that I needed to call
> approach on the approach frequency. So, I guess that begs the
> question ... when the ATIS says "all frequencies are combined", which
> frequencies are included in "all frequencies"?
>
I would have presumed it meant exactly as you did. Out of curiosity, what
happened next? Did they give you the approach frequency, change the ATIS,
or did you get the same controller when you changed frequencies?

Neil

[TaxSrv]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:
> Based on the tower's reply, it appears "all frequencies" means
tower, ground
> control, and clearance delivery frequencies. But that doesn't mean
your
> assumption was unreasonable.
>

A solution requiring no thought is just call approach per normal, and
switch to further freqs as instructed or to just "stay with me," as
happened to me once at big Milwaukee apt at 5AM, from 30 miles out to
all the way to shutdown.

I you happen to know the same guy has been working twr and ground,
after startup, wouldn't you still call on ground freq? Otherwise,
you're setting yourself up for embarrassment if 10 seconds prior, the
ground controller returned from the can, and both positions are back
to normal. Correct?

Fred IF.

[Tony Cox]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "Arden Prinz" > wrote in message
> om...
> >
> > I was approaching class C airspace for landing at the primary airport
> > for which the class C airspace is designated and I listened to the
> > ATIS. The ATIS said "all frequencies are combined on
> > <TowerFrequency>". So I tuned to <TowerFrequency> and made
> > my radio call to approach. The response that I got was that I
> > needed to call approach on the approach frequency. So, I guess
> > that begs the question ... when the ATIS says "all frequencies are
> > combined", which frequencies are included in "all frequencies"?
> >
>
> Based on the tower's reply, it appears "all frequencies" means tower,
ground
> control, and clearance delivery frequencies. But that doesn't mean your
> assumption was unreasonable.

It seems like a misleading ATIS instruction. I've often heard
"Clearance and Ground combined on xx.xx" but never "all
frequencies".

Some pilots - especially newly minted ones - don't realize and
don't really have any reason to suspect that different functions
are handled at different facilities. Publications like "Pilot Guide"
add confusion by listing ATIS, Approach, Tower & Ground in
little boxes for each airport. Who, without extra knowledge, would
suspect that "Approach" is handled by a different facility?

Arden's question isn't easy to answer anyway. If I were approaching
Monterrey (MTR), class C, approach is handled by a facility in
the tower on the floor below the guys looking out of the window.
If I heard "all frequencies" from MTR, I'd assume it means approach
too.

[SFM]

Tower, ground, and clearance delivery. ATIS is for the airport you listening
to not approach control

--
------------------------------------------------------------------
Scott F. Migaldi, K9PO
MI-150972
PP-ASEL-IA

Are you a PADI Instructor or DM? Then join the PADI
Instructor Yahoo Group at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PADI-Instructors/join
-----------------------------------
Catch the wave!
www.hamwave.com


**"A long time ago being crazy meant something, nowadays everyone is
crazy" -- Charles Manson**
-------------------------------------
"Arden Prinz" > wrote in message
om...
> I was approaching class C airspace for landing at the primary airport
> for which the class C airspace is designated and I listened to the
> ATIS. The ATIS said "all frequencies are combined on
> <TowerFrequency>". So I tuned to <TowerFrequency> and made my radio
> call to approach. The response that I got was that I needed to call
> approach on the approach frequency. So, I guess that begs the
> question ... when the ATIS says "all frequencies are combined", which
> frequencies are included in "all frequencies"?
>
> Thank-you in advance.

[Ben Jackson]

In article >,
Arden Prinz > wrote:
>The ATIS said "all frequencies are combined on
><TowerFrequency>".

I got the ATIS and Boundary Bay, BC (class D-esque, I forget if that
is actually class D in Canada). I was alert for the fact that they
had a new second tower frequency. The ATIS said "frequency blah blah
is now in use" so I call them on that frequency and they chastize
me -- the ATIS said "not in use". Raar!!

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

[One's Too Many]

This wasn't Abilene TX, was it?

They probably meant tower, ground, and clearance delivery (the
airport-specific channels) were all combined onto the tower frequency.
Approach generally stays on it's own channel, but often approach and
departure get combined too since the same person is handling both.

"Ryan" <f> wrote in message >...
> I would have done the same thing. Maybe it meant only if you were landing
> in the Class C.
>
> "Arden Prinz" > wrote in message
> om...
> > I was approaching class C airspace for landing at the primary airport
> > for which the class C airspace is designated and I listened to the
> > ATIS. The ATIS said "all frequencies are combined on
> > <TowerFrequency>". So I tuned to <TowerFrequency> and made my radio
> > call to approach. The response that I got was that I needed to call
> > approach on the approach frequency. So, I guess that begs the
> > question ... when the ATIS says "all frequencies are combined", which
> > frequencies are included in "all frequencies"?
> >
> > Thank-you in advance.

[Newps]

Tony Cox wrote:


>
> It seems like a misleading ATIS instruction. I've often heard
> "Clearance and Ground combined on xx.xx" but never "all
> frequencies".

It was confusing. And when all the freq's are combined they should
always be combined on the approach frequency. We do this every night
after 8 pm and it stays that way until 6:30 am the next day. The ATIS
broadcast will say "All aircraft contact Billings 120.5..."



> Arden's question isn't easy to answer anyway. If I were approaching
> Monterrey (MTR), class C, approach is handled by a facility in
> the tower on the floor below the guys looking out of the window.
> If I heard "all frequencies" from MTR, I'd assume it means approach
> too.

And if it wasn't I would question the controller right there.

[Newps]

SFM wrote:

> Tower, ground, and clearance delivery. ATIS is for the airport you listening
> to not approach control

Sorry, no.

[Arden Prinz]

Scott,

There was only one airport involved, it was the one to which I was
flying, and it was the approach control for that airport. There are
no other airports in the area. If the ATIS doesn't pertain to
approach, then it seems odd that approach always wants to know that
you've listened to it before calling approach.

Arden

"SFM" > wrote in message >...
> Tower, ground, and clearance delivery. ATIS is for the airport you listening
> to not approach control
>
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> Scott F. Migaldi, K9PO
> MI-150972
> PP-ASEL-IA

[Arden Prinz]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message t>...
> Based on the tower's reply, it appears "all frequencies" means tower, ground
> control, and clearance delivery frequencies.

That's what I figured. Would "all frequencies" have the same meaning
at other locations, or is the meaning of "all frequencies"
location-specific? I'd like to make my first call on the appropriate
frequency; when I have passengers (as I did when this happened), it
makes me look stupid (or maybe stupider :-) ), when I call and am told
that I'm on the wrong frequency.

Arden

[Arden Prinz]

"Neil Gould" > wrote in message t>...
> I would have presumed it meant exactly as you did. Out of curiosity, what
> happened next? Did they give you the approach frequency, change the ATIS,
> or did you get the same controller when you changed frequencies?
>
> Neil

The tower controller gave me the approach frequency (though I knew it
already). I switched to approach. I'm honestly not sure whether it
was the same guy or not ... I think it might been a different person,
but his voice did sound similar. :-)

Arden

[Arden Prinz]

> A solution requiring no thought is just call approach per normal, and
> switch to further freqs as instructed or to just "stay with me," as
> happened to me once at big Milwaukee apt at 5AM, from 30 miles out to
> all the way to shutdown.

Fred, I want to make the initial call on the proper frequency. When
I've
been on the ground preparing to taxi and I hear on the ATIS that
tower, ground, and clearance are combined on <TowerFrequency>, then my
initial call has been on the <TowerFrequency>. Likewise, when I'm on
the ground preparing to taxi, I've hear on the ATIS that all
frequencies are combined on <TowerFrequency>, then my initial call is
on <TowerFrequency>. This was the first time I was ever arriving and
heard on the ATIS that all frequencies are combined on
<TowerFrequency> an it seemed to me like that meant that my initial
call should have been on <TowerFrequency>.

> I you happen to know the same guy has been working twr and ground,
> after startup, wouldn't you still call on ground freq? Otherwise,
> you're setting yourself up for embarrassment if 10 seconds prior, the
> ground controller returned from the can, and both positions are back
> to normal. Correct?

Hmmmm. I have no insight into who is working where. But if I listen
to the ATIS and it tells me to use a certain frequency, and I use some
other frequencey, then wouldn't that be setting myself up for
embarrassment (they might figure I neglected to listen to the ATIS).

Arden

[Bill Denton]

A few thoughts...

I believe you started with a bad assumption. If you think about it, tower,
ground, clearance, and ATIS are associated with a single airport.

But approach is not associated with any particular airport. Even though a
given approach may serve only one airport, it's not associated with that
airport, it's associated with a center. This is why you may see approach and
departure on the same frequency.

I'm gathering that at the point in your flight where you checked the ATIS,
you would be talking to approach, and you would later switch to tower. Which
is why tower kicked you back to approach.

In the future it would probably help if you could keep in mind who the
service "belongs" to, and that would guide you where to tune for what.

Hope this is useful...




"Arden Prinz" > wrote in message
om...
> > A solution requiring no thought is just call approach per normal, and
> > switch to further freqs as instructed or to just "stay with me," as
> > happened to me once at big Milwaukee apt at 5AM, from 30 miles out to
> > all the way to shutdown.
>
> Fred, I want to make the initial call on the proper frequency. When
> I've
> been on the ground preparing to taxi and I hear on the ATIS that
> tower, ground, and clearance are combined on <TowerFrequency>, then my
> initial call has been on the <TowerFrequency>. Likewise, when I'm on
> the ground preparing to taxi, I've hear on the ATIS that all
> frequencies are combined on <TowerFrequency>, then my initial call is
> on <TowerFrequency>. This was the first time I was ever arriving and
> heard on the ATIS that all frequencies are combined on
> <TowerFrequency> an it seemed to me like that meant that my initial
> call should have been on <TowerFrequency>.
>
> > I you happen to know the same guy has been working twr and ground,
> > after startup, wouldn't you still call on ground freq? Otherwise,
> > you're setting yourself up for embarrassment if 10 seconds prior, the
> > ground controller returned from the can, and both positions are back
> > to normal. Correct?
>
> Hmmmm. I have no insight into who is working where. But if I listen
> to the ATIS and it tells me to use a certain frequency, and I use some
> other frequencey, then wouldn't that be setting myself up for
> embarrassment (they might figure I neglected to listen to the ATIS).
>
> Arden

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Arden Prinz" > wrote in message
om...
>
> That's what I figured. Would "all frequencies" have the same meaning
> at other locations, or is the meaning of "all frequencies"
> location-specific? I'd like to make my first call on the appropriate
> frequency; when I have passengers (as I did when this happened), it
> makes me look stupid (or maybe stupider :-) ), when I call and am told
> that I'm on the wrong frequency.
>

"All frequencies" is not standard phraseology. In my opinion it shouldn't
be used as it was because it's quite reasonable to make the assumption you
did. Instead, the ATIS should just state that ground, clearance, and tower
are combined on tower frequency.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Bill Denton" > wrote in message
...
>
> But approach is not associated with any particular airport. Even
> though a given approach may serve only one airport, it's not
> associated with that airport, it's associated with a center.
>

How so? Approach tends to be located at the airport it was established to
serve, not at a center.


>
> This is why you may see approach and
> departure on the same frequency.
>

I don't see the connection.

[Hamish Reid]

In article t>,
"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote:

> "Bill Denton" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > But approach is not associated with any particular airport. Even
> > though a given approach may serve only one airport, it's not
> > associated with that airport, it's associated with a center.
>
> How so? Approach tends to be located at the airport it was established to
> serve, not at a center.

True enough in general, but 'round here most approaches have been
borged into either NorCal (nee Sierra, nee Bay / Sacto / Monterey /
Travis / Stockton / etc.) or SoCal Approaches. Same service, but served
out of anonymous barns somewhere in lovely Suburban Sacramento and the
even lovelier Southlands, well away from most of the airports they
serve.

Not that that's terribly relevant to the original point, but never
mind. It's just that the mental image changed almost overnight from a
bunch of people (some of whom you'd actually see occasionally getting
lunch from the local roach coach or talking at local meetings) sitting
around at Oakland or Sacto or Travis in buildings you could see every
time you flew, to a much larger bunch of people you never ever see, a
long way from most airports. Almost like a Center, in fact (but at
least I've *seen* Oakland Center and met some of the people there...).

> > This is why you may see approach and
> > departure on the same frequency.
> >
>
> I don't see the connection.

Me neither.

Hamish

[Brad Salai]

I fly out of KROC, and what you experienced makes some sense based on my
experience. I got a tour of the tower and approach/departure control with my
instructor last summer. Clearance/Delivery, Ground and Tower are all located
in the tower cab, close to each other (there isn't room for them to be any
other way. App/Dep is on a lower floor connected by a very sophisticated
tube through which they drop the strips.

In this case, they have a scope in the tower cab, but I think the normal
display is set to a shorter range than the scopes in the app/dep area. I'll
admit I didn't pay close attention to this, and it was a while ago, but that
was my recollection. It is probably adjustable in any event. At slow times,
it is common for one controller to act as two or more of Tower, Ground, and
Clearance/Delivery, but they seem to have different preferences as to
combining frequencies. Some continue to operate on all the normal
frequencies, some ask that you stay on one frequency, usually the tower
frequency, (mostly at arrival), I'll admit I've never run into an all
freq's combined on the atis.

Brad

"Arden Prinz" > wrote in message
>...

> I was approaching class C airspace for landing at the primary airport

> for which the class C airspace is designated and I listened to the

> ATIS. The ATIS said "all frequencies are combined on

> <TowerFrequency>". So I tuned to <TowerFrequency> and made my radio

> call to approach. The response that I got was that I needed to call

> approach on the approach frequency. So, I guess that begs the

> question ... when the ATIS says "all frequencies are combined", which

> frequencies are included in "all frequencies"?

>

"Arden Prinz" > wrote in message
om...
> I was approaching class C airspace for landing at the primary airport
> for which the class C airspace is designated and I listened to the
> ATIS. The ATIS said "all frequencies are combined on
> <TowerFrequency>". So I tuned to <TowerFrequency> and made my radio
> call to approach. The response that I got was that I needed to call
> approach on the approach frequency. So, I guess that begs the
> question ... when the ATIS says "all frequencies are combined", which
> frequencies are included in "all frequencies"?
>
> Thank-you in advance.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Hamish Reid" > wrote in message
...
>
> True enough in general, but 'round here most approaches have been
> borged into either NorCal (nee Sierra, nee Bay / Sacto / Monterey /
> Travis / Stockton / etc.) or SoCal Approaches. Same service, but
> served out of anonymous barns somewhere in lovely Suburban
> Sacramento and the even lovelier Southlands, well away from most
> of the airports they serve.
>

And not at a Center.

[Bill Denton]

You will note that I said "associated with", not "located at".

My use of the term "center" may not have been 100% correct, but it was the
best term I could think of, and it's irrelevant anyway. The point is not
what "approach" is associated with, it's the fact that "approach" is not
associated with a specific airport.

Consider the following pairs of approach frequencies and Chicago airport
groups:

118.4 - KMDW, KIGQ, KCGX (now closed)

119.0 - KORD

133.5 - KDPA, KARR, KDKB

120.55 - KPWK, KUGN, 3CK, C81

119.35 - KLOT, KJOT, 1C5

Which makes my point that a given "approach" frequently serves more than one
airport.

And keep in mind that when you call any of those guys up, it's "Chicago
Approach...", not "O'Hare Approach" or "Midway Approach". More evidence that
"approach" is not associated with a specific airport.

Which means my advice to the original poster is still valid...


"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "Bill Denton" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > But approach is not associated with any particular airport. Even
> > though a given approach may serve only one airport, it's not
> > associated with that airport, it's associated with a center.
> >
>
> How so? Approach tends to be located at the airport it was established to
> serve, not at a center.
>
>
> >
> > This is why you may see approach and
> > departure on the same frequency.
> >
>
> I don't see the connection.
>
>

[Hamish Reid]

In article t>,
"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote:

> "Hamish Reid" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > True enough in general, but 'round here most approaches have been
> > borged into either NorCal (nee Sierra, nee Bay / Sacto / Monterey /
> > Travis / Stockton / etc.) or SoCal Approaches. Same service, but
> > served out of anonymous barns somewhere in lovely Suburban
> > Sacramento and the even lovelier Southlands, well away from most
> > of the airports they serve.
>
> And not at a Center.

No one in this thread except maybe Bill Denton ever said approaches
were associated with (or "at") a Center.

However, it's true that there's a tendency in and around the larger
metropolitan areas of the US for approaches *not* to be associated
with, let alone at, a particular airport. I'm based in one such area.

Hamish

[A Guy Called Tyketto]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Newps > wrote:
>
>
> SFM wrote:
>
>> Tower, ground, and clearance delivery. ATIS is for the airport you listening
>> to not approach control
>
> Sorry, no.
>

Actually, yes. Even if Approach was located at the airport in
question, The ATIS is for the AIRPORT, not the Approach into the
airport.

Take KLAS for example. It's a Tower/ATCT (facility where
Approach is located in the same building as Tower), in Class B
airspace. The field is open continuously. After 2am, every night, the
ATIS goes something like:

Info Alpha, 2156Z. Wind <wind>. vis <vis>. Sky <sky>. Temp <temp>.
Dewpoint <dewpoint>. Alt <altimeter>. <visual, ILS, etc> approaches in
use. Landing runways <runways>. Departing runways <runways>. NOTAMS
<notams>. All services available on <freq>. Advice on initial contact,
you have information Alpha.

What this means, is that Clearance delivery, Ground, and Tower
are all on <freq>. This does NOT mean Approach. For the list of the
approach freqs, See AirNav. You should have received a freq to contact,
if you had filed IFR or VFR with flight following (I don't know the
type of plan the OP had filed). If just VFR, then The approach freq
into that area (seeing that it was Class C, the OP should have had)
should have been on hand.

But the ATIS that was originally posted is only for the
AIRPORT, not the approach into the airport. If Approach was combined,
when contacted, the ATC would say "Change to my frequency, xxx.xx".
Approach combines freqs as well, but also still monitor the others
in case someone else does call up.

BL.
- --
Brad Littlejohn | Email:
Unix Systems Administrator, |
Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! :) | http://www.sbcglobal.net/~tyketto
PGP: 1024D/E319F0BF 6980 AAD6 7329 E9E6 D569 F620 C819 199A E319 F0BF

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[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Bill Denton" > wrote in message
...
>
> You will note that I said "associated with", not "located at".
>

I note that you said, "Even though a given approach may serve only one
airport, it's not associated with that airport, it's associated with a
center." Not only are such facilities associated with the airport they
serve, they are located on them.


>
> My use of the term "center" may not have been 100% correct,
> but it was the best term I could think of, and it's irrelevant anyway.
>

It was 0% correct.


>
> The point is not what "approach" is associated with, it's the fact
> that "approach" is not associated with a specific airport.
>

That's not a fact, that's your opinion. While you're certainly entitled to
your own opinions you are not entitled to your own facts.


>
> Consider the following pairs of approach frequencies and
> Chicago airport groups:
>
> 118.4 - KMDW, KIGQ, KCGX (now closed)
>
> 119.0 - KORD
>
> 133.5 - KDPA, KARR, KDKB
>
> 120.55 - KPWK, KUGN, 3CK, C81
>
> 119.35 - KLOT, KJOT, 1C5
>
> Which makes my point that a given "approach" frequently serves
> more than one airport.
>
> And keep in mind that when you call any of those guys up, it's "Chicago
> Approach...", not "O'Hare Approach" or "Midway Approach".
>

Well, since you believe an approach control is associated with a center, why
don't you call these guys "Chicago Center" when you call them up?


>
> More evidence that "approach" is not associated with a specific airport.
>
> Which means my advice to the original poster is still valid...
>

Approach controls ARE associated with airports, that's the reason they were
created.

Let's look at an example of a middle of the road approach control facility;
Madison TRACON in Madison, Wisconsin. Madison approach serves and is
located on Truax Field in Madison. They also serve eight other airports
with SIAPs in the area, but about 85% of MSN TRACON's traffic is generated
by Truax Field. MSN TRACON was created for the purpose of handling
instrument operations at Truax Field. Once it was created it was in a
position to provide services to these other airports and does so, but it
would never have been created if Truax Field was not there. Without Truax
there would be no Madison TRACON and Chicago Center would be providing IFR
services to these other airports on a full-time basis.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Hamish Reid" > wrote in message
...
>
> No one in this thread except maybe Bill Denton ever said approaches
> were associated with (or "at") a Center.
>

Yes, and his was the message I responded to.


>
> However, it's true that there's a tendency in and around the larger
> metropolitan areas of the US for approaches *not* to be associated
> with, let alone at, a particular airport. I'm based in one such area.
>

Some TRACONs in close proximity have been combined into single facilities
not located on airports, but approach control facilities are still
associated with airports. After all, providing IFR services to airports is
their reason for being.

[Bill Denton]

If you want to argue semantics, knock yourself out. But you'll have to do it
by yourself 'cause I have a life.

The point is, if you get an ATIS message that all frequencies are combined
on 999.9 for a specific airport, approach WILL NOT be included in the
services that can be reached on that frequency. Because approach is not
associated with any specific airport even though it may only serve a single
airport.

You mentioned Madison, WI. If you are flying into KMSN do you call up
"Madison approach" or "Truax approach"?

I rest my case...



"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "Bill Denton" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > You will note that I said "associated with", not "located at".
> >
>
> I note that you said, "Even though a given approach may serve only one
> airport, it's not associated with that airport, it's associated with a
> center." Not only are such facilities associated with the airport they
> serve, they are located on them.
>
>
> >
> > My use of the term "center" may not have been 100% correct,
> > but it was the best term I could think of, and it's irrelevant anyway.
> >
>
> It was 0% correct.
>
>
> >
> > The point is not what "approach" is associated with, it's the fact
> > that "approach" is not associated with a specific airport.
> >
>
> That's not a fact, that's your opinion. While you're certainly entitled
to
> your own opinions you are not entitled to your own facts.
>
>
> >
> > Consider the following pairs of approach frequencies and
> > Chicago airport groups:
> >
> > 118.4 - KMDW, KIGQ, KCGX (now closed)
> >
> > 119.0 - KORD
> >
> > 133.5 - KDPA, KARR, KDKB
> >
> > 120.55 - KPWK, KUGN, 3CK, C81
> >
> > 119.35 - KLOT, KJOT, 1C5
> >
> > Which makes my point that a given "approach" frequently serves
> > more than one airport.
> >
> > And keep in mind that when you call any of those guys up, it's "Chicago
> > Approach...", not "O'Hare Approach" or "Midway Approach".
> >
>
> Well, since you believe an approach control is associated with a center,
why
> don't you call these guys "Chicago Center" when you call them up?
>
>
> >
> > More evidence that "approach" is not associated with a specific airport.
> >
> > Which means my advice to the original poster is still valid...
> >
>
> Approach controls ARE associated with airports, that's the reason they
were
> created.
>
> Let's look at an example of a middle of the road approach control
facility;
> Madison TRACON in Madison, Wisconsin. Madison approach serves and is
> located on Truax Field in Madison. They also serve eight other airports
> with SIAPs in the area, but about 85% of MSN TRACON's traffic is generated
> by Truax Field. MSN TRACON was created for the purpose of handling
> instrument operations at Truax Field. Once it was created it was in a
> position to provide services to these other airports and does so, but it
> would never have been created if Truax Field was not there. Without Truax
> there would be no Madison TRACON and Chicago Center would be providing IFR
> services to these other airports on a full-time basis.
>
>

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Bill Denton" > wrote in message
...
>
> If you want to argue semantics, knock yourself out. But you'll
> have to do it by yourself 'cause I have a life.
>

I argue with facts and logic.


>
> Because approach is not associated with any specific airport
> even though it may only serve a single airport.
>

Sorry, that's simply not the case. I take it you're not a pilot?


>
> You mentioned Madison, WI. If you are flying into KMSN do you
> call up "Madison approach" or "Truax approach"?
>
> I rest my case...
>

You call "Madison Approach", just as you call "Madison Tower" and "Madison
Ground. Would you also make the case that tower and ground are not
associated with any specific airport?

[aaronw]

On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 15:17:54 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
> wrote:

>Approach controls ARE associated with airports, that's the reason they were
>created.
>
>Let's look at an example of a middle of the road approach control facility;
>Madison TRACON in Madison, Wisconsin. Madison approach serves and is
>located on Truax Field in Madison. They also serve eight other airports
>with SIAPs in the area, but about 85% of MSN TRACON's traffic is generated
>by Truax Field. MSN TRACON was created for the purpose of handling
>instrument operations at Truax Field. Once it was created it was in a
>position to provide services to these other airports and does so, but it
>would never have been created if Truax Field was not there. Without Truax
>there would be no Madison TRACON and Chicago Center would be providing IFR
>services to these other airports on a full-time basis.
>

I have a side question to this... Is it ever the case that an approach
is created because the combination of many small airports makes it a
good idea/worthwhile? I'm specifically thinking of Cape TRACON in
this instance. It seems to control a mismash of airports, MVY, ACK,
HYA, etc. Or maybe sometime in the past it was more tied to a
particular airport and then as traffic grew it expanded its reach?

I guess those sorts of things are pretty much only decided on the
basis of traffic volume?

aw

[Steven P. McNicoll]

aaronw > wrote in message >...
>
> I have a side question to this... Is it ever the case that an approach
> is created because the combination of many small airports makes it a
> good idea/worthwhile? I'm specifically thinking of Cape TRACON in
> this instance. It seems to control a mismash of airports, MVY, ACK,
> HYA, etc. Or maybe sometime in the past it was more tied to a
> particular airport and then as traffic grew it expanded its reach?
>

I believe that facility was originally created to primarily serve Otis AFB.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

aaronw > wrote in message >...
>
> I have a side question to this... Is it ever the case that an approach
> is created because the combination of many small airports makes it a
> good idea/worthwhile? I'm specifically thinking of Cape TRACON in
> this instance. It seems to control a mismash of airports, MVY, ACK,
> HYA, etc. Or maybe sometime in the past it was more tied to a
> particular airport and then as traffic grew it expanded its reach?
>

I believe that facility was originally created to primarily serve Otis AFB.