Radio base stations

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

I used a Tentec radio as a base station and crew radio for many years.
It worked well at home and in our various motorhomes, my wife liked it,
but it got old (25 years) and got cranky. I replaced with with an iCom
A6, but my wife doesn't like it because it is not nearly as noise and
interference tolerant in reception as the old Tentec.

That opinion is based on using the A6 and Tentec in the same place,
within a few minutes of the other one, on the same power supply and
antenna. Without question, the Tentec is much quieter, even with the
squelch set on the edge; the A6 typically needs the squelch cranked up
to 18-22 (of 24) to keep it from hissing.

So, now I'm looking for a base station that has good reception and can
tolerate the noise that is often present in a home or motorhome. The two
main choices look like clones of each other, but I'm open to suggestions
for other radios (even handhelds): the iCom A110 and the Flightline
FL-M1000A.

Does anyone know what would make a good base station for my situation?
Or some way of improving the iCom A6 noise tolerance?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

[[email protected]]

Eric
I know nothing about your particular setup and your environment. But let me speculate a bit.
25 years ago, you bought a radio with the technology of that day. The radio had reasonable sensitivity and you did not have a cell phone, a tablet, a laptop and so on in your motorhome.
Now, you got a new radio with latest technology, having much better sensitivity. Probably also a couple of cellphones, tablets, a laptop and maybe other electronic toys in your RV. All of these gadgets nowadays are using efficient switch mode power supplies as chargers.
Unfortunately these chargers have very high levels of spurious RF noise emissions. This holds particularly for cheap non-branded cigarette lighter USB chargers.

So, if you are using any of these switch mode power supplies as chargers (this might include an power inverter in your RV), take your handheld radio. Dial in on the problem frequency. Get away from the RV until the squelch does not get broken by the noise. Then approach the RV and try to zoom in on the area that might be emitting the noise. If it leads you to a charger, confirm by disconnecting this charger (keep in mind that a charger under load might have a different emission spectrum from a charger that is idling)

If your radio noise problem is indeed caused by a charger, move the charger away from the radio (and antenna) or try a different charger.

I bet there is nothing wrong with your A6.

Good luck with your hunt.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

wrote, On 8/21/2013 9:03 PM:
> Eric I know nothing about your particular setup and your environment.
> But let me speculate a bit. 25 years ago, you bought a radio with the
> technology of that day. The radio had reasonable sensitivity and you
> did not have a cell phone, a tablet, a laptop and so on in your
> motorhome. Now, you got a new radio with latest technology, having
> much better sensitivity. Probably also a couple of cellphones,
> tablets, a laptop and maybe other electronic toys in your RV. All of
> these gadgets nowadays are using efficient switch mode power supplies
> as chargers. Unfortunately these chargers have very high levels of
> spurious RF noise emissions. This holds particularly for cheap
> non-branded cigarette lighter USB chargers.
>
> So, if you are using any of these switch mode power supplies as
> chargers (this might include an power inverter in your RV), take your
> handheld radio. Dial in on the problem frequency. Get away from the
> RV until the squelch does not get broken by the noise. Then approach
> the RV and try to zoom in on the area that might be emitting the
> noise. If it leads you to a charger, confirm by disconnecting this
> charger (keep in mind that a charger under load might have a
> different emission spectrum from a charger that is idling)
>
> If your radio noise problem is indeed caused by a charger, move the
> charger away from the radio (and antenna) or try a different
> charger.
>
> I bet there is nothing wrong with your A6.

I also suspect there is nothing "wrong" with the A6; ie, it is
performing as designed. The fact remains that when operating the Tentec
in the exact same environment (comparing them side by side, switching
the roof mounted antenna between them), it does not need it's squelch
set high to block interference.

It's true the A6 is bothered by the laptop power supply, the speed
controller in the motorhome roof fan, and random clicks, clack, hisses,
and other noises, some of which are from outside the motorhome. The
Tentec is oblivious to most of these. The same thing happens at home. A
new set of fluorescent lights in the house drives the A6 nuts; the
Tentec squelch just needs a tiny tweak to stop the noise.

I have tried to mitigate the problem by tracking down sources, but there
are some that can not be located, are beyond my control, or are too
desirable to eliminate (like the air conditioner in the motorhome -
eliminate that and it eliminates some interference, but then my wife
will stay home, so I don't even need a crew radio ... too drastic a fix!)

I did talk to an iCom support person about it, and his answer seemed to
be "The A6 is designed to be used in an aircraft or on the ramp, and not
in buildings, homes, etc, where there are many potential noise sources".

My guess is the digital signal processing in the A6 is simply not as
effective as the analog filtering in the Tentec against some common
forms of interference. I'm hoping there are modern transceivers that do
a better job than the A6. My first thought was that possibly the radios
designed as base stations would work better as base stations, but I'd
like confirmation of that before spending four times as much as the A6 cost!

I am considering trying to fix the Tentec, but it's old and not
supported. She really likes that radio, though.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

[pcool]

Having an A6 too, I can confirm what Eric is saying.
This radio is simply too sensible to RFI of any kind, and the only
workaround is to set squelch to nearly the max.
At home, in the car, in other houses, the A6 is quite unusable.
At the same time, side by side with other UHF and VHF radios, even cheap
chinese 40$ radios, they have no problems.
So the problem is the way the A6 is made, beginning with the ancient NimH
battery which lasts nothing, the non-intelligent battery charger that cannot
stop charging once the battery is full, and so on.
In the air the sensibility of the A6 is just sufficient.
The best place to use the A6 is in the middle of a desert. Right were the
Icom engineers deserve to be left.




"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message ...

wrote, On 8/21/2013 9:03 PM:
> Eric I know nothing about your particular setup and your environment.
> But let me speculate a bit. 25 years ago, you bought a radio with the
> technology of that day. The radio had reasonable sensitivity and you
> did not have a cell phone, a tablet, a laptop and so on in your
> motorhome. Now, you got a new radio with latest technology, having
> much better sensitivity. Probably also a couple of cellphones,
> tablets, a laptop and maybe other electronic toys in your RV. All of
> these gadgets nowadays are using efficient switch mode power supplies
> as chargers. Unfortunately these chargers have very high levels of
> spurious RF noise emissions. This holds particularly for cheap
> non-branded cigarette lighter USB chargers.
>
> So, if you are using any of these switch mode power supplies as
> chargers (this might include an power inverter in your RV), take your
> handheld radio. Dial in on the problem frequency. Get away from the
> RV until the squelch does not get broken by the noise. Then approach
> the RV and try to zoom in on the area that might be emitting the
> noise. If it leads you to a charger, confirm by disconnecting this
> charger (keep in mind that a charger under load might have a
> different emission spectrum from a charger that is idling)
>
> If your radio noise problem is indeed caused by a charger, move the
> charger away from the radio (and antenna) or try a different
> charger.
>
> I bet there is nothing wrong with your A6.

I also suspect there is nothing "wrong" with the A6; ie, it is
performing as designed. The fact remains that when operating the Tentec
in the exact same environment (comparing them side by side, switching
the roof mounted antenna between them), it does not need it's squelch
set high to block interference.

It's true the A6 is bothered by the laptop power supply, the speed
controller in the motorhome roof fan, and random clicks, clack, hisses,
and other noises, some of which are from outside the motorhome. The
Tentec is oblivious to most of these. The same thing happens at home. A
new set of fluorescent lights in the house drives the A6 nuts; the
Tentec squelch just needs a tiny tweak to stop the noise.

I have tried to mitigate the problem by tracking down sources, but there
are some that can not be located, are beyond my control, or are too
desirable to eliminate (like the air conditioner in the motorhome -
eliminate that and it eliminates some interference, but then my wife
will stay home, so I don't even need a crew radio ... too drastic a fix!)

I did talk to an iCom support person about it, and his answer seemed to
be "The A6 is designed to be used in an aircraft or on the ramp, and not
in buildings, homes, etc, where there are many potential noise sources".

My guess is the digital signal processing in the A6 is simply not as
effective as the analog filtering in the Tentec against some common
forms of interference. I'm hoping there are modern transceivers that do
a better job than the A6. My first thought was that possibly the radios
designed as base stations would work better as base stations, but I'd
like confirmation of that before spending four times as much as the A6 cost!

I am considering trying to fix the Tentec, but it's old and not
supported. She really likes that radio, though.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

[Alan[_6_]]

In article > Eric Greenwell > writes:
wrote, On 8/21/2013 9:03 PM:

>I also suspect there is nothing "wrong" with the A6; ie, it is
>performing as designed. The fact remains that when operating the Tentec
>in the exact same environment (comparing them side by side, switching
>the roof mounted antenna between them), it does not need it's squelch
>set high to block interference.

>I did talk to an iCom support person about it, and his answer seemed to
>be "The A6 is designed to be used in an aircraft or on the ramp, and not
>in buildings, homes, etc, where there are many potential noise sources".
>
>My guess is the digital signal processing in the A6 is simply not as
>effective as the analog filtering in the Tentec against some common
>forms of interference. I'm hoping there are modern transceivers that do
>a better job than the A6. My first thought was that possibly the radios
>designed as base stations would work better as base stations, but I'd
>like confirmation of that before spending four times as much as the A6 cost!

My experience with amateur radio Icom handhelds is that they do not have
the worlds best filtering, and are designed to operate as handhelds.

In fact, that latter part is true of most handhelds - they are designed
to operate with the attached antenna, so put more effort into a receiver
that can deal with weaker signals (and weaker interference). They are not
really built to be attached to that big outside antenna.

Intermodulation effects often are non-linear - if the signal levels double,
the intermodulation caused interference may quadruple (or worse). Thus,
the much stronger signal from the outside antenna overloads the front end of
the handheld radio's receiver.

Icom makes "base" radios, such as the A110 (and others that cost less).
They are much more likely to give good service.


>I am considering trying to fix the Tentec, but it's old and not
>supported. She really likes that radio, though.

Dependin on the problems and history of the radio, it may well be worth
the trouble.

Alan

[Peter Higgs]

Hi, I also have an A6, and in the middle of our lawn the squelch only needs
to be on 1. Take it into the house next to the TV / Computer and it
needs 16 on the squelch.

However if I use it on an external aerial, even when next to the TV and
computer, it again only needs squelch 1.

So the answer is simple, just make sure you use an external aerial and good
screened co-ax.

Also check out any BNC Plugs / Connectors. If you can rotate them the
co-ax braid is disconnected and the Plug needs re-doing.... I have found
dozens of loose BNCs in various applications, its the first thing to check.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Peter Higgs wrote, On 8/23/2013 7:27 AM:
> Hi, I also have an A6, and in the middle of our lawn the squelch only needs
> to be on 1. Take it into the house next to the TV / Computer and it
> needs 16 on the squelch.

My experience is the same, if "next to" means less than 2 feet.
>
> However if I use it on an external aerial, even when next to the TV and
> computer, it again only needs squelch 1.

This is when my A6 is at it's worst, whether in the house or in our
motorhome.
>
> So the answer is simple, just make sure you use an external aerial and good
> screened co-ax.

The coax is good in the motorhome, but is old and perhaps not so good in
the house. I'll try some new coax; however, my old Tentec is not
bothered by the interference when using the external antenna with it's
old coax, so I am not hopeful that better coax will help the A6 in the
house, and that still leaves the motorhome problem.
>
> Also check out any BNC Plugs / Connectors. If you can rotate them the
> co-ax braid is disconnected and the Plug needs re-doing.... I have found
> dozens of loose BNCs in various applications, its the first thing to check.

Good point, and they are all good; however, as above, the Tentec works
fine with what I have.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl