Getting students to line up with the center line

[BoDEAN]

I'm having an issue with 2 students.

One has a hard time lining up/staying lined up with the center line
(no wind and xwind). I keep telling him "toes forward" and "Have the
center line cut through your body"

Still not grasping it.

The other student, likes to be 10-20 degrees angled left / right of
center line before touching down (ie. side loading)

Any tips?

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
BoDEAN > wrote:

> I'm having an issue with 2 students.
>
> One has a hard time lining up/staying lined up with the center line
> (no wind and xwind). I keep telling him "toes forward" and "Have the
> center line cut through your body"
>
> Still not grasping it.
>
> The other student, likes to be 10-20 degrees angled left / right of
> center line before touching down (ie. side loading)
>
> Any tips?
>

I was always taught to line up on the side from which the wind is
blowing, in order to take advantage of any runway crown, for crosswind
takeoffs.

[ArtP]

On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 00:54:32 -0400, BoDEAN > wrote:

>I'm having an issue with 2 students.
>
>One has a hard time lining up/staying lined up with the center line
>(no wind and xwind). I keep telling him "toes forward" and "Have the
>center line cut through your body"
>
>Still not grasping it.

I started flying at 58 and after 43 years of driving in my lane it
took a lot of practice before I could remember to straddle the line.

[Casey Wilson]

"BoDEAN" > wrote in message
...
> I'm having an issue with 2 students.
>
> One has a hard time lining up/staying lined up with the center line
> (no wind and xwind). I keep telling him "toes forward" and "Have the
> center line cut through your body"
>
> Still not grasping it.
>
> The other student, likes to be 10-20 degrees angled left / right of
> center line before touching down (ie. side loading)
>
> Any tips?

I'll tell you what my first instructor did to me after repeated
admonitions about not landing in the middle of the runway. I dunno, maybe I
figured the feet on the Aerobat could fit twenty or thirty times across the
width of the runway -- what's so critical, anyway.
Well, came time for some cross country night flying. Bob M. had me fly
across the valley and over the hills to Trona. I hadn't been there before,
even in the daytime so my tension was up about pucker-factor four when Bob
said to make the approach with a simulated landing light failure. No sweat,
been there and done that once or twice for practice at the home patch.
Downwind, base, final -- the runway lights were lined up pretty good, I was
a little (maybe a wing width or two) from the centerline but the right
margin was way over there to the side. Plenty of room.
I flared, the stall horn beeped, and I touched down... TO THE GOD
AWFULLEST RACKET I'D EVER HEARD!!!. Pucker factor at ten! Shove the carb
heat and throttle full forward! Pull the nose up! The NOISE went away.
"What the hell was that?" I asked when I finally remembered to breathe.
"Turn downwind, now. Shoot another approach and use the landing light
this time," he said.
Remember I said I'd not flown to Trona before? When I turned final, I
saw what the noise was. The paved surface of the runway was a tiny narrow
strip of pavement between rows of lights that were five times wider with
desert between.
Bob's only comment was, "I've told you to use the middle of the runway
enough times. I don't want to tell you again."
To this day, it takes a helluva crosswind to move that white stripe
outside my gear span.

[Bob Noel]

In article >, BoDEAN
> wrote:

> I'm having an issue with 2 students.
>
> One has a hard time lining up/staying lined up with the center line
> (no wind and xwind). I keep telling him "toes forward" and "Have the
> center line cut through your body"
>
> Still not grasping it.
>
> The other student, likes to be 10-20 degrees angled left / right of
> center line before touching down (ie. side loading)
>
> Any tips?

I know this doesn't help you, but...

During my instrument instruction, my CFII was tired of me landing to
the left of centerline on a 150' wide runway. He took me to TEWMAC,
which was (iifc) 26' wide. When I landed on the runway he said "see!,
I knew you could land on the centerline." I replied that I can when
it matters. I still land left of centerline on wide runways.

--
Bob Noel

[Steve Foley]

Bring him/her somewhere with a narrow runway.

I learned at an airport with a 150' wide runway. I usually landed with at
least the centerline between the wingtips.

I moved to a 50' wide runway. After a few month, I flew into the wide
airport and was surprised to see the centerline passing under the prop.


"BoDEAN" > wrote in message
...
> I'm having an issue with 2 students.
>
> One has a hard time lining up/staying lined up with the center line
> (no wind and xwind). I keep telling him "toes forward" and "Have the
> center line cut through your body"
>
> Still not grasping it.
>
> The other student, likes to be 10-20 degrees angled left / right of
> center line before touching down (ie. side loading)
>
> Any tips?
>

[EDR]

Ask the students where they are looking.
Probably just over the nose.
Tell them it is like driving a car... look down the road (runway) to
the end or beyond.

[Teacherjh]

The runway should be lined up in front of the pilot, not in front of the
airplane. Many new (and even some experienced) pilots put the runway on the
nose. It will look funny at first, but put the runway in the middle of the
pilot's side of the window.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[[email protected]]

On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 00:54:32 -0400, BoDEAN > wrote:

I know someone who also had the problem of being left of centerline.
Eventually we determined that she was concentrating too hard at
watching the centerline stripe and not paying enough attention to the
overall runway picture.

The solution in this case was a simple visit to a grass strip (no
centerline). She did several landings there and all were decent -
proper flare, always in the center, etc...

It finally clicked that she was watching the center stripe too
intently, so on return to the home base, she just started thinking
"grass strip" and stopped staring at the centerline, but looking much
further down the runway - It worked.

>I'm having an issue with 2 students.
>
>One has a hard time lining up/staying lined up with the center line
>(no wind and xwind). I keep telling him "toes forward" and "Have the
>center line cut through your body"
>
>Still not grasping it.
>
>The other student, likes to be 10-20 degrees angled left / right of
>center line before touching down (ie. side loading)
>
>Any tips?
>

[Robert Moore]

BoDEAN wrote

> The other student, likes to be 10-20 degrees angled left / right of
> center line before touching down (ie. side loading)
> Any tips?

I've had a more than a couple of students do this. I solved the problem
by demonstrating to them that they were unconsciously applying rudder
just before touchdown. By controlling the rudder myself and having the
student place his/her feet flat on the floor, it was obvious that they
were causing the change in heading.

This behavior was observed in students who were "bracing" themselves with
their feet and legs to assist in pulling back on the yoke for the landing
flare. A couple of students with leg/knee problems (artificial joints)
were not able to "brace" symmetrically.

I have also been known to require students to fly without shoes in order
to gain a better feel for what they are doing with the rudder pedals.

Bob Moore
ATP CFI

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Steve Foley" > said:
>Bring him/her somewhere with a narrow runway.

Didn't work for me. My instructor would get mad because I'd land entirely
on the left side of the runway at the home airport, so he took me to a
little parachute jumping strip that was probably about 2 feet wider than
the landing gear and 1100 feet long. I'd land perfectly centered on that
tiny runway, and then come back to the home runway and land way on the
left hand side. The problem is that I was lining up on the left hand
edge, so going to a smaller runway didn't transfer.

I forget how I switched to lining up on the middle.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"The way I see it, unless we each conform, unless we obey orders, unless
we follow our leaders blindly, there is no possible way we can remain
free." - John Ashcroft^W^WFrank Burns

[Anyone]

> The other student, likes to be 10-20 degrees angled left / right of
> center line before touching down (ie. side loading)

I used to do this and have seen many students do this. I think the most
common reason is because they're trying to line up the center line of the
plane with the center stripe. In doing so they misjudge what the angle
formed by the stripe, their lateral displacement, and the end of the runway
should look like. Have him line himself up with the stripe or go to a
runway without a centerline.

If not that he might be kicking in rudder at the last minute.



"BoDEAN" > wrote in message
...
> I'm having an issue with 2 students.
>
> One has a hard time lining up/staying lined up with the center line
> (no wind and xwind). I keep telling him "toes forward" and "Have the
> center line cut through your body"
>
> Still not grasping it.
>
> The other student, likes to be 10-20 degrees angled left / right of
> center line before touching down (ie. side loading)
>
> Any tips?
>

[Andrew Sarangan]

BoDEAN > wrote in news:02bc70155v6jl5inhl070v3hkjbl0b246f@
4ax.com:

> I'm having an issue with 2 students.
>
> One has a hard time lining up/staying lined up with the center line
> (no wind and xwind). I keep telling him "toes forward" and "Have the
> center line cut through your body"
>

How does the student taxi on the ground? If the student is taxiing
consistently to the left side of the line, then you know he is
overcompensating for the width of the airplane and his seat position. Show
him that his seat is only about 12" from the aircraft axis, which is about
the same thickness as the taxiway line.

[Peter Gottlieb]

I trained at a fairly large field with a very wide runway. The CFI kept
telling me to stay on the centerline and I kept saying there seemed little
point, why not land on the side where I was going to turn off?

So he brought me to a very short and narrow field for practice. THEN I was
right on the centerline. Either that or in the weeds. Enough of that and
eventually I just sort of automatically aim for the center now.



"BoDEAN" > wrote in message
...
> I'm having an issue with 2 students.
>
> One has a hard time lining up/staying lined up with the center line
> (no wind and xwind). I keep telling him "toes forward" and "Have the
> center line cut through your body"

[Ben Jackson]

In article >,
Bob Noel > wrote:
>which was (iifc) 26' wide. When I landed on the runway he said "see!,
>I knew you could land on the centerline." I replied that I can when
>it matters. I still land left of centerline on wide runways.

For me the experience of landing on narrower runways 'stuck' and cured
my laziness about hitting the centerline of a 150' wide runway.

I think my offcenter landings were mostly due to my tendancy to 'settle'
for configurations that are good enough, if not perfect. So if I got
lined up on the left side of the runway with my perfect slip in I wasn't
going to mess with that just to fly over to the centerline and then have
to get the slip dialed in again.

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

[Shirley]

EDR erood@rrohio wrote:

>Ask the students where they are looking. Probably
>just over the nose. Tell them it is like driving a
>car... look down the road (runway) to the end or
>beyond.

That's what helped me. As a glider pilot (tandem seating) transitioning to
power, everyone said I would be overwhelmed by the radios. The radios were not
a problem ... what gave me the most trouble was sitting on the left side of the
airplane and lining up with the centerline! My instructor on final would say:
"Line yourself up with the centerline" and I'd say, "I *AM*!"--looked like it
to me! Not only did getting my eyes up off the nose and down the runway help
with lining up the aircraft, it also helped solve the problem of flaring too
soon and too high and bouncing. Didn't bounce when doing touch-n-gos, only full
stops -- glider instructor said it was because my eyes were fixated too close
to the airplane on the full stops, whereas doing the T&Gs, you automatically
look down the runway. Made perfect sense. Faking myself out that I was always
going to do T&Gs helped solidify the habit of "eyes down the runway." I still
find it amazing what a big difference a seemingly little thing like that could
make!
--Shirley

[John Gaquin]

"Ben Jackson" > wrote in message news:gvBdc.464

> Bob Noel > wrote:
> >......I can when
> >it matters. I still land left of centerline on wide runways.
>
> For me the experience of landing on narrower runways 'stuck' and cured
> my laziness about hitting the centerline of a 150' wide runway.
>
> I think my offcenter landings were mostly due to my tendancy to 'settle'
> for configurations that are good enough, if not perfect.

You've got it, Ben. Fact is, you could land a Boeing along one side of the
runway if you wanted to. Lots of people settle for adequacy, but you don't
see much of that among people who have developed a sense of discipline and
professionalism.

[John Gaquin]

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
>
> ...He took me to TEWMAC,
> which was (iifc) 26' wide.

I remember TewMac.... very narrow, with Rt 38 right over the fence, and the
fried clam place right there beside the runway end. Yum! Used to take a
310 in and out of there sometimes years ago. All gone now, nothing but
condos, but the eatery is still there, I think.

[G.R. Patterson III]

BoDEAN wrote:
>
> I'm having an issue with 2 students.
>
> One has a hard time lining up/staying lined up with the center line
> (no wind and xwind). I keep telling him "toes forward" and "Have the
> center line cut through your body"
>
> Still not grasping it.
>
> The other student, likes to be 10-20 degrees angled left / right of
> center line before touching down (ie. side loading)
>
> Any tips?

Pick a day that's not busy. Line the aircraft up properly. Ask the student to look at
the centerline all the way down at the other end of the runway. The student should
then move his/her eyes straight down until the eyes hit some recognizeable portion of
the instrument panel. Tell them to learn that sight picture. For example, whatever is
in front of the right mounting screw for the AI in my Maule is directly in front of
me.

Courtesy of Kenny Lemieux, former CFI.

George Patterson
This marriage is off to a shaky start. The groom just asked the band to
play "Your cheatin' heart", and the bride just requested "Don't come home
a'drinkin' with lovin' on your mind".

[Cub Driver]

7B3 Hampton NH is a turf runway maybe 300 feet wide by 2400 feet long.
In a strong wind I generally land at an angle, into the wind.

And of course it is the precisely the "centerline" that is badly
eroded, because of all the anal pilots aiming for the centerline. So
even on calm days I favor one side or the other, usually the west
because the east side has a small hill about halfway down.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

[EDR]

In article >, Cub Driver
> wrote:

> 7B3 Hampton NH is a turf runway maybe 300 feet wide by 2400 feet long.
> In a strong wind I generally land at an angle, into the wind.
> And of course it is the precisely the "centerline" that is badly
> eroded, because of all the anal pilots aiming for the centerline. So
> even on calm days I favor one side or the other, usually the west
> because the east side has a small hill about halfway down.

But Dan, you're not a student anymore!

[ZikZak]

Usually, this is due to using the nose of the airplane as a reference.

When I have a student doing this consistently, I draw a little cross on the
windshield with a whiteboard marker directly in front of his face. Then I
tell him to use the cross as a reference instead of the nose. Works every
time, and the whiteboard mark wipes right off.

I also use whiteboard marks on the windshield for other purposes, too, such
as getting Microsoft Flight Simulator junkies to look out the window, and
when students are having trouble judging altitude on final approach.

ZZ, CFI.

[DP]

On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 10:58:11 GMT, Bob Noel
> wrote:

>In article >, BoDEAN
> wrote:
>
>> I'm having an issue with 2 students.
>>
>> One has a hard time lining up/staying lined up with the center line
>> (no wind and xwind). I keep telling him "toes forward" and "Have the
>> center line cut through your body"
>>
>> Still not grasping it.
>>
>> The other student, likes to be 10-20 degrees angled left / right of
>> center line before touching down (ie. side loading)
>>
>> Any tips?
>
>I know this doesn't help you, but...
>
>During my instrument instruction, my CFII was tired of me landing to
>the left of centerline on a 150' wide runway. He took me to TEWMAC,
>which was (iifc) 26' wide. When I landed on the runway he said "see!,
>I knew you could land on the centerline." I replied that I can when
>it matters. I still land left of centerline on wide runways.

Correct........ TEWMAC was 26 feet.....:) or two plow blades wide, if
you prefer...:)
Don Paquette
PP-ASEL
N9723X

[Rob McDonald]

In article >, BoDEAN
> wrote:

> I'm having an issue with 2 students.
>
> One has a hard time lining up/staying lined up with the center line
> (no wind and xwind). I keep telling him "toes forward" and "Have the
> center line cut through your body"
>
> Still not grasping it.
>
> The other student, likes to be 10-20 degrees angled left / right of
> center line before touching down (ie. side loading)
>
> Any tips?

This is from the point of view of a student who is just waiting for his
check ride. I had both problems for a while...

The angled landings occurred early in my training, primarily due to
"information overload." Not enough was happening automatically yet, I had
to think through everything I was doing. As my landings got better in other
respects, I had more time to focus on and fix this problem. I think I was
more concerned about how hard we collided with the ground than at what
particular angle :-)

The alignment problem lasted a lot longer. Our main runway is 75' wide, I
was always to the left of center. It seems that I just didn't have "the
picture" quite right. My instructors reminded me periodically and as my
training progressed my landings migrated to the center. It took most of the
training period to fix that one, and even now I catch myself left of center
on final occasionally.

I am training in a C172. It will be interesting to see what happens when I
transition to my Champ.

Rob

[EDR]

In article >, Rob McDonald
> wrote:

> I am training in a C172. It will be interesting to see what happens when I
> transition to my Champ.

You will land where ever your butt is. If it is on the line, then it is
just a matter of keeping your butt on the line until you turn off.

[ilana]

BoDEAN > wrote in message >...
> I'm having an issue with 2 students.
>
> One has a hard time lining up/staying lined up with the center line
> (no wind and xwind). I keep telling him "toes forward" and "Have the
> center line cut through your body"
>
> Still not grasping it.
>
> The other student, likes to be 10-20 degrees angled left / right of
> center line before touching down (ie. side loading)
>
> Any tips?



It seems that your students having hard time dividing attention
and performing few tasks simultaneously i.e.. maintaining center line
and longitudinal attitude,
stabilize the descend to landing,etc.
A proven technique that I use for teaching such students how to also
land in crosswinds
may help in this scenario, Have your student repeatedly fly over the
center line at about 10 - 20 ft AGL
while you take away all his other tasks such as power management
required to maintain
the final approach speed, making sure the a/c is trimmed properly,
and by guiding him with the control inputs until you achieve the
proper attitude, and center line is maintained.
Let him view comfortably this attitude( without having to fly it to a
landing).and let him fly this pttn again
for few times until both of you agree that the task has been
accomplished and he can easily perform it, (even if it takes
a whole session).
The next thing will be flying it all the way to a landing.

BTW using this method on a calm wind day may achieve faster results
than on a strong x winds.

Mike CFII MEI

[Cub Driver]

>Have your student repeatedly fly over the
>center line at about 10 - 20 ft AGL

My early instructor had me do this (more like 5 ft however) at a
nearby airport with a fine long asphalt runway (with centerline :)
when I demonstrated a lack of finesse in getting the Cub on the
ground.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

[Bushy]

> when I demonstrated a lack of finesse in getting the Cub on the
> ground.
>

I've never missed the ground!
;<)
Peter