Butterfly

[[email protected]]

Hello
The Butterfly vario was advertise has a revolution, well almost, on the market.
Is there any pilots using the Butterfly vario who care to comment on the advantages,if any, of this instrument? I am serously interested in acquiring
one but it as to be better than my LX 7000.
Thanks for your input.
Gilles

[jfitch]

On Tuesday, August 27, 2013 5:59:06 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> Hello
>
> The Butterfly vario was advertise has a revolution, well almost, on the market.
>
> Is there any pilots using the Butterfly vario who care to comment on the advantages,if any, of this instrument? I am serously interested in acquiring
>
> one but it as to be better than my LX 7000.
>
> Thanks for your input.
>
> Gilles

I have one and I like it. But I have not used an LX7000 so I cannot compare.. It has a zillion more functions and features than the CAI 302 that it replaced in my panel, and has a very nice user interface. It does a bunch of things buut its unique features seem to be:
* Nearly instantaneous wind calculation (inertially derived)
* Inertially derived Vertical Airmass Movement (VAM) which in theory eliminates horizontal gust errors
* Artificial Horizon Reference

The VAM requires some interpretation, but I think supplies some new information that I didn't have before. There are some other varios on the market claiming to use inertial sensing, but it is less clear what they actually do with it, if anything.

[[email protected]]

I am very interested in the Butterfly Vario also but am waiting to hear from more users. The price is very steep. What I am looking for is a multipurpose display/instrument. I am hopeful that the Flarm display will become more complete. I am looking forward to the Angle of Attack (AOA) feature that is supposed to be released later this year. The inertial instrumentation to filter out horizontal gusts is very attractive.

At this time I am very happy with my C302 and want to add Flarm but have limited panel space and do not want to start stacking boxes and instruments on top of my panel and on multiple RAM mounts around my cockpit.

It seems that Butterfly is spending most of their time dealing with Flarm issues and the dedicated Butterfly Flarm display and putting the Butterfly Vario on the back burner.

Waiting. Watching. Listening. Hopeful. Not ready to write the check yet..

[jfitch]

On Tuesday, August 27, 2013 7:29:08 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> I am very interested in the Butterfly Vario also but am waiting to hear from more users. The price is very steep. What I am looking for is a multipurpose display/instrument. I am hopeful that the Flarm display will become more complete. I am looking forward to the Angle of Attack (AOA) feature that is supposed to be released later this year. The inertial instrumentation to filter out horizontal gusts is very attractive.
>
>
>
> At this time I am very happy with my C302 and want to add Flarm but have limited panel space and do not want to start stacking boxes and instruments on top of my panel and on multiple RAM mounts around my cockpit.
>
>
>
> It seems that Butterfly is spending most of their time dealing with Flarm issues and the dedicated Butterfly Flarm display and putting the Butterfly Vario on the back burner.
>
>
>
> Waiting. Watching. Listening. Hopeful. Not ready to write the check yet.

I wouldn't say "back burner". They have responded very quickly to a couple of bugs I discovered.

I too bought it partly because of limited panel space and the integrated traffic display. The traffic display is incomplete and does not show the alarm screen, or any PCAS traffic at all. However this is nicely displayed on good PDA software (but not the PCAS targets so far as I know). What it DOES do is give you a very good voice alert: "GLIDER, 12 O'CLOCK ABOVE, TWO" meaning there is a FLARM warning of a glider at your 12 higher and 200 meters distant. I was a bit skeptical at this but having used it a few months now I think it is probably better than the display alert, if you have to choose between the two. There are voice warnings for gear, spoilers, speeds and obstacles (the latter in Europe only). In my glider this is a welcome change - I had three separate buzzers before and when one went off, I could spend a fair amount of time trying to figure out what the hell was going on. A Flarm display was going to add a 4th buzzer, with additional confusion. I would still like to see them implement full Flarm display on the vario.

[[email protected]]

Good to hear about the voice alerts. This is another very strong point in favor of the Butterfly Vario.
The C302 has a gear warning buzzer but the volume is controlled in synch with the vario volume so that when I turn the vario volume down when I am getting ready to land the gear buzzer gets turned down. When I need a quiet cockpit the most and am at risk of a gear up situation the C302 fails me. Are the volumes for each feature controlled independently in the Butterfly vario?

[[email protected]]

You can also get the voice alerts by installing the TR-DVS (http://www.triadis.ch/index.php?TR-DVS) which has been available since many years for about 430$. Judging from the sound samples in youtube videos from Butterfly, the software generating the sound alerts is the same. Not surprisingly, because the company which made the TR-DVS is also involved in the Butterfly vario.

[[email protected]]

El martes, 27 de agosto de 2013 20:59:06 UTC-4, escribió:
> Hello
>
> The Butterfly vario was advertise has a revolution, well almost, on the market.
>
> Is there any pilots using the Butterfly vario who care to comment on the advantages,if any, of this instrument? I am serously interested in acquiring
>
> one but it as to be better than my LX 7000.
>
> Thanks for your input.
>
> Gilles

Hi
Not many comment on the variometer itself.
Is it a better variometer in difficult broken lift, hard to center thermal?
The zillion function can be found on many instrument it is a matter of taste.
Gilles

[John Carlyle]

On Tuesday, August 27, 2013 10:02:49 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> I have one and I like it. But I have not used an LX7000 so I cannot compare. It has a zillion more functions and features than the CAI 302 that it replaced in my panel, and has a very nice user interface. It does a bunch of things buut its unique features seem to be:
>
> * Nearly instantaneous wind calculation (inertially derived)
>
> * Inertially derived Vertical Airmass Movement (VAM) which in theory eliminates horizontal gust errors
>
> * Artificial Horizon Reference
>
> The VAM requires some interpretation, but I think supplies some new information that I didn't have before. There are some other varios on the market claiming to use inertial sensing, but it is less clear what they actually do with it, if anything.

I don't understand your comment "the VAM requires some interpretation, but I think supplies some new information that I didn't have before". I would think the VAM was an inertially derived NETTO value. What do you think the VAM is telling you that you don't already know?

-John, Q3

[jfitch]

On Wednesday, August 28, 2013 6:10:05 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> Good to hear about the voice alerts. This is another very strong point in favor of the Butterfly Vario.
>
> The C302 has a gear warning buzzer but the volume is controlled in synch with the vario volume so that when I turn the vario volume down when I am getting ready to land the gear buzzer gets turned down. When I need a quiet cockpit the most and am at risk of a gear up situation the C302 fails me. Are the volumes for each feature controlled independently in the Butterfly vario?

Yes the Butterfly seems to be manufactured by Triadis. Not sure who is doing the firmware. The voice alerts (and vario, and cruise tones) are each independently adjustable. In addition, there is a speed dependent volume adjustment (so it will be louder when going faster) and also a connection to the push-to-talk microphone switch so that when you talk on the radio, the volume will be turned down (again, a settable amount from 0-100%). I have found the latter a nice feature.

Is it a better vario than a CAI 302? I think strict vario function has been fairly well trodden ground. I like the presentation better on the Butterfly, it has nearly the same filtering adjustments, and cannot be set a lot faster than the 302 - not that you would necessarily want that, it (and the 302) get pretty twitchy when the filtering is reduced to the minimum. I expect both of these and any other pressure transducer instrument are accurately reporting the pressure rate of change, which is about all they can do.

Now, that is not the end of the story. The VAM is an inertially derived netto, and theoretically can filter horizontal gusts which a traditional netto or vario cannot. Actually in the Butterfly you are able to derive the VAM from barographic information, inertial information, or any mix of the two from 0-100%. I have settled on about 80% inertial, at 100% it seems hard to interpret, but I haven't played with all of the available filtering much yet. However I have watched the VAM and vario extensively in thermals (keeping an eye on the Flarm display of course, don't have time to look outside ;) ), and I am beginning to wonder if I would do better thermalling from the VAM needle, instead of the vario needle. In rough western desert thermals it is kind of hard to tell without a lot of flying next to people to see if there is a difference in ultimate climb rate. There are many times when the needles agree, usually with the VAM leading the vario - this is good. There are also times when they don't agree, and often in those cases it is not obvious why.

Second, the inertially derived wind is nearly instantaneous, and varies a *great deal* around thermals. From the "feel" of things, I judge it accurate: when I feel a sudden sideways gust entering a thermal, sure enough there it is displayed on the vario. Vector shifts of 180 deg and 20 knots velocity compared to wind average on the PDA are somewhat common where I fly. I have just been informed by Buttefly that I can display this difference on iGlide, haven't tried it yet as I just got the equipment needed to connect it up. I am beginning to learn to use this information to tell me which direction the thermal core is.

So there is extra information available to the instrument, and the pilot, that was not there on the CAI 302. I don't think it will instantly turn me into a threat at the Nationals. However I hopeful it will improve my climbs, when and if I learn how to use it. In the mean time it is a damned entertaining instrument!

[JS]

The Butterfly is the most contemporary looking vario I've flown with. All others look quite "old fashioned" after using it.
The multiple "pointers" displayed give a pretty complete analysis of the airmass at a glance. The wind calculation is the smoothest I've ever seen. It works very well in weak lift. I did not get to fly it in choppy lift.
However, Marc from Butterfly told me that the FLARM warnings in the vario do not cover the full range of warnings that the FLARM display does. Besides this I believe it does not automatically switch to the radar screen if there is a warning. They do not recommend it as the primary FLARM display.
Jim

[jfitch]

On Wednesday, August 28, 2013 5:07:31 PM UTC-7, JS wrote:
> The Butterfly is the most contemporary looking vario I've flown with. All others look quite "old fashioned" after using it.
>
> The multiple "pointers" displayed give a pretty complete analysis of the airmass at a glance. The wind calculation is the smoothest I've ever seen.. It works very well in weak lift. I did not get to fly it in choppy lift.
>
> However, Marc from Butterfly told me that the FLARM warnings in the vario do not cover the full range of warnings that the FLARM display does. Besides this I believe it does not automatically switch to the radar screen if there is a warning. They do not recommend it as the primary FLARM display.
>
> Jim

You are correct, it does not switch to the Flarm display by itself under any circumstances. You must manually change to that screen using the select knob. There are no warning type displays on the screen, it just shows the radar display with any detected glider or ADS-B traffic. It appears to me that the "RX" icon will light on receiving a Mode C transponder, but that is the only indication. The voice warnings happen over everything though (but again no PCAS).

And yes the display is spectacular compared to any others I have seen. Makes all the others look like "steam gages". But: the V7 does show Flarm warnings......

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, August 27, 2013 4:59:06 PM UTC-8, wrote:
> Hello The Butterfly vario was advertise has a revolution, well almost, on the market. Is there any pilots using the Butterfly vario who care to comment on the advantages,if any, of this instrument? I am serously interested in acquiring one but it as to be better than my LX 7000. Thanks for your input. Gilles

I have two of these in an ASH 25. Best vario I have ever used and I date back to the days of the Schuman box. The bright display is excellent and you can set it for a fast response rate without the audio becomig irritating. The audio is also the most pleasant I have flown with. The netto ball and McCready are easy to see and the McCready is super easy to adjust. The speed command page is OK but no big improvment over my SN10. It is also a complete navigation and final glide computer, but these features are not as convenient as with the big moving map displays. At this time you cannot enter a competition type task on the instrument, but I understand that is in the works. My Inertial sensor unit was defective and has been just been replaced and not flown. When it was working the real time wind information was bad ass. I could see a rapid shift of direction as I dropped through the normal shear from west to north at my home field, also I could map the winds on opposing sides of a convergence line. I suspect it might be helpfull when ridge soaring, although I have not tried that. I am not convinced that the vertical air mass/inertial information is of much help. I may learn to utilize it eventually. The artificial horizon is very cool and comforting, although will probably never be used. I see this instrument combined with a big moving map instrument such as LX9000, Clear Nav, or Ultimate as being the best setup possible today. The Butterfly being a great vario while providing redundancy for the navigation and final glide computers. I don't see much use for the Flarm page unless they make it appear automatically when traffic is near. The voice (bitching Betty) is not of much use to me because if I set it loud enough for me to hear, when flying,it is garbled. I am deaf as a post,however, as I think many of us are. I have found that installing an external speaker on the Flarm and using the Flarm displays is better.. It is also a easy to use approved flight recorder.

[jfitch]

On Thursday, August 29, 2013 5:21:47 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 27, 2013 4:59:06 PM UTC-8, wrote:
>
> > Hello The Butterfly vario was advertise has a revolution, well almost, on the market. Is there any pilots using the Butterfly vario who care to comment on the advantages,if any, of this instrument? I am serously interested in acquiring one but it as to be better than my LX 7000. Thanks for your input. Gilles
>
>
>
> I have two of these in an ASH 25. Best vario I have ever used and I date back to the days of the Schuman box. The bright display is excellent and you can set it for a fast response rate without the audio becomig irritating. The audio is also the most pleasant I have flown with. The netto ball and McCready are easy to see and the McCready is super easy to adjust. The speed command page is OK but no big improvment over my SN10. It is also a complete navigation and final glide computer, but these features are not as convenient as with the big moving map displays. At this time you cannot enter a competition type task on the instrument, but I understand that is in the works. My Inertial sensor unit was defective and has been just been replaced and not flown. When it was working the real time wind information was bad ass. I could see a rapid shift of direction as I dropped through the normal shear from west to north at my home field, also I could map the winds on opposing sides of a convergence line. I suspect it might be helpfull when ridge soaring, although I have not tried that. I am not convinced that the vertical air mass/inertial information is of much help. I may learn to utilize it eventually. The artificial horizon is very cool and comforting, although will probably never be used. I see this instrument combined with a big moving map instrument such as LX9000, Clear Nav, or Ultimate as being the best setup possible today. The Butterfly being a great vario while providing redundancy for the navigation and final glide computers. I don't see much use for the Flarm page unless they make it appear automatically when traffic is near. The voice (bitching Betty) is not of much use to me because if I set it loud enough for me to hear, when flying,it is garbled. I am deaf as a post,however, as I think many of us are. I have found that installing an external speaker on the Flarm and using the Flarm displays is better. It is also a easy to use approved flight recorder.

To this I would only add that the VAM has several filters which change its behavior quite a lot. It may take some experimentation with those to get useful information.

I had to change out the speaker to get the Bitchen' Betty to sound good when she was all turned up. The audio quality is good, but requires a better speaker than is typically installed for vario beeps, and maybe a better one than is shipped with it. But I am not deaf as a post yet.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

jfitch wrote, On 8/29/2013 5:46 PM:
> On Thursday, August 29, 2013 5:21:47 PM UTC-7,

>> I see this instrument combined with a big moving map
>> instrument such as LX9000, Clear Nav, or Ultimate as being the best
>> setup possible today. The Butterfly being a great vario while
>> providing redundancy for the navigation and final glide computers.
>> I don't see much use for the Flarm page unless they make it appear
>> automatically when traffic is near. The voice (bitching Betty) is
>> not of much use to me because if I set it loud enough for me to
>> hear, when flying,it is garbled. I am deaf as a post,however, as I
>> think many of us are. I have found that installing an external
>> speaker on the Flarm and using the Flarm displays is better. It is
>> also a easy to use approved flight recorder.
>
> To this I would only add that the VAM has several filters which
> change its behavior quite a lot. It may take some experimentation
> with those to get useful information.
>
> I had to change out the speaker to get the Bitchen' Betty to sound
> good when she was all turned up. The audio quality is good, but
> requires a better speaker than is typically installed for vario
> beeps, and maybe a better one than is shipped with it. But I am not
> deaf as a post yet.

I have ClearNav with a 302. I'm considering replacing the 302 with a
Butterfly or ClearNav vario for next season. Has anyone compared the
varios when connected to a ClearNav?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

[krasw]

On Wednesday, 28 August 2013 18:13:51 UTC+3, wrote:
> El martes, 27 de agosto de 2013 20:59:06 UTC-4, escribió:
>
> > Hello
>
> >
>
> > The Butterfly vario was advertise has a revolution, well almost, on the market.
>
> >
>
> > Is there any pilots using the Butterfly vario who care to comment on the advantages,if any, of this instrument? I am serously interested in acquiring
>
> >
>
> > one but it as to be better than my LX 7000.
>
> >
>
> > Thanks for your input.
>
> >
>
> > Gilles
>
>
>
> Hi
>
> Not many comment on the variometer itself.
>
> Is it a better variometer in difficult broken lift, hard to center thermal?
>
> The zillion function can be found on many instrument it is a matter of taste.
>
> Gilles

Butterfly TE-variometer is on a same level as best current varios (IMHO Zander 940/ZS1). You really can't develop TE pressure vario any better because TE pressure doesn't give you a very comprehensive picture of airmass. The VAM vario is something others don't have, and I think it is worth the premium. I look at VAM ball almost exclusively during glides.

BF vario is expensive, but you get 100% what you pay for. Display, build quality and support are first class. I think some of the bugs in software should have been fixed before release, but they have send new software versions very quickly.

krasw

[jfitch]

On Thursday, August 29, 2013 7:18:54 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> jfitch wrote, On 8/29/2013 5:46 PM:
>
> > On Thursday, August 29, 2013 5:21:47 PM UTC-7,
>
>
>
> >> I see this instrument combined with a big moving map
>
> >> instrument such as LX9000, Clear Nav, or Ultimate as being the best
>
> >> setup possible today. The Butterfly being a great vario while
>
> >> providing redundancy for the navigation and final glide computers.
>
> >> I don't see much use for the Flarm page unless they make it appear
>
> >> automatically when traffic is near. The voice (bitching Betty) is
>
> >> not of much use to me because if I set it loud enough for me to
>
> >> hear, when flying,it is garbled. I am deaf as a post,however, as I
>
> >> think many of us are. I have found that installing an external
>
> >> speaker on the Flarm and using the Flarm displays is better. It is
>
> >> also a easy to use approved flight recorder.
>
> >
>
> > To this I would only add that the VAM has several filters which
>
> > change its behavior quite a lot. It may take some experimentation
>
> > with those to get useful information.
>
> >
>
> > I had to change out the speaker to get the Bitchen' Betty to sound
>
> > good when she was all turned up. The audio quality is good, but
>
> > requires a better speaker than is typically installed for vario
>
> > beeps, and maybe a better one than is shipped with it. But I am not
>
> > deaf as a post yet.
>
>
>
> I have ClearNav with a 302. I'm considering replacing the 302 with a
>
> Butterfly or ClearNav vario for next season. Has anyone compared the
>
> varios when connected to a ClearNav?
>
>
>
> --
>
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
>
> email me)
>
> - "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
>
> http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

Eric - since the RS232 output from the Butterfly emulates either an LX1600 or CAI302 vario, I don't think you will see much difference on any PDA software that connects that way, with the exception that the wind will be much more up to date (if the PDA software in question uses the wind value in the NMEA sentences received). Another consideration is that the NMEA interface is fixed at 38K baud, while the CAI 302 is effectively fixed at 4800 baud, so the PDA software must be configurable enough to receive it. The Butterfly also does not seem to do the initial handshaking that the CAI302 expects (to turn on the data port), it just begins to broadcast as soon as it is booted. This cause some initial problems for me with some software, solved by running everything in the LX mode.

For my money, the Clearnav vario is a boring instrument compared to the Butterfly, looking distinctly 20th century. It virtues seem to be that it is cheaper, simpler, and no doubt well integrated with the Clearnav. And there are those who will say that, being built in the USA, if you are in the USA service is closer and quicker should it ever be needed.

[Chris]

>
> I have ClearNav with a 302. I'm considering replacing the 302 with a
>
> Butterfly or ClearNav vario for next season. Has anyone compared the
>
> varios when connected to a ClearNav?
>


If you already have the ClearNav i would seriously consider the CN vario. It is a very good instrument and is built to communicate with the clear nav. I am very happy with performance, sensitivity and functionality after the recent software upgrades.

[waremark]

On Wednesday, 28 August 2013 01:59:06 UTC+1, wrote:
> Hello
>
> The Butterfly vario was advertise has a revolution, well almost, on the market.
>
> Is there any pilots using the Butterfly vario who care to comment on the advantages,if any, of this instrument? I am serously interested in acquiring
>
> one but it as to be better than my LX 7000.
>
> Thanks for your input.
>
> Gilles

For balance against all the enthusiasm for Clearnav and Butterfly, I would just like to say that I am using an LX 9000 (with V5 and AHRS) and find it superb. I am surprised that anyone would consider using any other vario than the V5 or V9 with the LX 9000 main unit. The LX 9000 voice system is very clear and I find it quite fun, but I am not sure that it adds much. I have turned off the voice warnings of Flarm traffic - I was getting far too many voice 'warnings' for non-conflicting traffic, and I find it better just to get an urgent beep for possible collision threats (I have a Butterfly display on all the time, and traffic also shows on the LX 9000 moving map).

At my club everyone with newish varios has been buying LX Navs, no Clearnavs or Butterflys.

I am not sure how we are going to know whether pilots with any one of these systems climb better than pilots with the others. And the infinite setup variations which they all offer will make it even more difficult to know whether one is better than the others. I must admit that even though I say the LX 9000 is superb, from the point of view of the vario alone I am perfectly happy with the 15 plus year old L Navs which we have in some of our club gliders.

Meanwhile, as a pure vario the Butterfly is far more expensive than the rivals - although it is reasonably good value if you also need an artificial horizon and an IGC logger. The navigation and flarm features seem too limited to be of relevance, and the back seat repeater is particularly expensive.

[jfitch]

On Friday, August 30, 2013 3:53:20 PM UTC-7, waremark wrote:
> On Wednesday, 28 August 2013 01:59:06 UTC+1, wrote:
>
> > Hello
>
> >
>
> > The Butterfly vario was advertise has a revolution, well almost, on the market.
>
> >
>
> > Is there any pilots using the Butterfly vario who care to comment on the advantages,if any, of this instrument? I am serously interested in acquiring
>
> >
>
> > one but it as to be better than my LX 7000.
>
> >
>
> > Thanks for your input.
>
> >
>
> > Gilles
>
>
>
> For balance against all the enthusiasm for Clearnav and Butterfly, I would just like to say that I am using an LX 9000 (with V5 and AHRS) and find it superb. I am surprised that anyone would consider using any other vario than the V5 or V9 with the LX 9000 main unit. The LX 9000 voice system is very clear and I find it quite fun, but I am not sure that it adds much. I have turned off the voice warnings of Flarm traffic - I was getting far too many voice 'warnings' for non-conflicting traffic, and I find it better just to get an urgent beep for possible collision threats (I have a Butterfly display on all the time, and traffic also shows on the LX 9000 moving map).
>
>
>
> At my club everyone with newish varios has been buying LX Navs, no Clearnavs or Butterflys.
>
>
>
> I am not sure how we are going to know whether pilots with any one of these systems climb better than pilots with the others. And the infinite setup variations which they all offer will make it even more difficult to know whether one is better than the others. I must admit that even though I say the LX 9000 is superb, from the point of view of the vario alone I am perfectly happy with the 15 plus year old L Navs which we have in some of our club gliders.
>
>
>
> Meanwhile, as a pure vario the Butterfly is far more expensive than the rivals - although it is reasonably good value if you also need an artificial horizon and an IGC logger. The navigation and flarm features seem too limited to be of relevance, and the back seat repeater is particularly expensive.

You will get no voice warnings from the Butterfly for non-conflicting traffic - only for the same ones that would cause a warning on the Flarm display.. The only voice warnings on it I ignore are the "Spoilers Open" ones that I get when taxiing with the motor running. As far as value goes, the red and green pellet varios worked pretty well. Anything else is gravy, and you pay a bit for each feature you get. Considered historically, you can still buy a CAI 302/303 combo for $2835 or an SN10 for $3655 - that makes the Butterfly look like a pretty good value. But certainly if all you want is a basic vario there are far cheaper ways to go - even than the V5.

[27pilot]

I agree, if you already have a clearnav, give serious consideration to the clearnav vario, I have well over 200 hours on mine and am extremely satisfied with it. If someone stole it from my glider today I would replace it with another without even giving consideration to the competition.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

27pilot wrote, On 8/30/2013 7:41 PM:
> I agree, if you already have a clearnav, give serious consideration
> to the clearnav vario, I have well over 200 hours on mine and am
> extremely satisfied with it. If someone stole it from my glider
> today I would replace it with another without even giving
> consideration to the competition.

Thanks for the remarks. It's still my first choice, but I don't need to
make a decision for several months, so I'm considering other possibilities.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, August 28, 2013 1:39:50 PM UTC-4, John Carlyle wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 27, 2013 10:02:49 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
>
> > I have one and I like it. But I have not used an LX7000 so I cannot compare. It has a zillion more functions and features than the CAI 302 that it replaced in my panel, and has a very nice user interface. It does a bunch of things buut its unique features seem to be:
>
> >
>
> > * Nearly instantaneous wind calculation (inertially derived)
>
> >
>
> > * Inertially derived Vertical Airmass Movement (VAM) which in theory eliminates horizontal gust errors
>
> >
>
> > * Artificial Horizon Reference
>
> >
>
> > The VAM requires some interpretation, but I think supplies some new information that I didn't have before. There are some other varios on the market claiming to use inertial sensing, but it is less clear what they actually do with it, if anything.
>
>
>
What do you think the VAM is telling you that you don't already know?
>
>
>
> -John, Q3

This is a good point. I considered buying the Butterfly variometer to replace the 302 but ended up buying ClearNav. The price was not much of consideration. I watched a couple of videos of the Butterfly variometer in real flight situation and the VAM and the variometer indications hardly ever agreed.. This was very confusing. Instead of feeling air pilot would spend more time with eyes in the cockpit watching not one but two indicators and get confused by conflicting information. What sense does it make to increase the workload?

The VAM is not used to filter out gusts probably because no one can figure out the algorithm to do so considering what seems often as conflicting information.

I think the LX, ClearNav and Butterfly as variometers come very close the rest seems just like options on a well equipped car.

I only wish ClearNav sound to be nicer. The sound award goes to Butterfly and LX. ClearNav are you listening? We want nicer sounding variometer.

Due to sound of ClearNav vario if I were to choose again I would have gone with LX.

[krasw]

lauantai, 31. elokuuta 2013 17.14.55 UTC+3 kirjoitti:
>
> This is a good point. I considered buying the Butterfly variometer to replace the 302 but ended up buying ClearNav. The price was not much of consideration. I watched a couple of videos of the Butterfly variometer in real flight situation and the VAM and the variometer indications hardly ever agreed. This was very confusing.



Isn't this logical considering variometer shows change of total energy including horizontal gusts, and VAM only vertical airmass movement?



>
>
>
> The VAM is not used to filter out gusts probably because no one can figure out the algorithm to do so considering what seems often as conflicting information.
>
>


I think there is quite good reason for (sometimes) conflicting information, and the use of two indicators has been good solution, based on appr. 100hrs of flying with Butterfly. I bet writing down algorithm to combine inertial and total energy data is difficult, as no one has managed to do it succesfully.

krasw

[jfitch]

On Saturday, August 31, 2013 7:14:55 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 28, 2013 1:39:50 PM UTC-4, John Carlyle wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, August 27, 2013 10:02:49 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > I have one and I like it. But I have not used an LX7000 so I cannot compare. It has a zillion more functions and features than the CAI 302 that it replaced in my panel, and has a very nice user interface. It does a bunch of things buut its unique features seem to be:
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > * Nearly instantaneous wind calculation (inertially derived)
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > * Inertially derived Vertical Airmass Movement (VAM) which in theory eliminates horizontal gust errors
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > * Artificial Horizon Reference
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > The VAM requires some interpretation, but I think supplies some new information that I didn't have before. There are some other varios on the market claiming to use inertial sensing, but it is less clear what they actually do with it, if anything.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> What do you think the VAM is telling you that you don't already know?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > -John, Q3
>
>
>
> This is a good point. I considered buying the Butterfly variometer to replace the 302 but ended up buying ClearNav. The price was not much of consideration. I watched a couple of videos of the Butterfly variometer in real flight situation and the VAM and the variometer indications hardly ever agreed. This was very confusing. Instead of feeling air pilot would spend more time with eyes in the cockpit watching not one but two indicators and get confused by conflicting information. What sense does it make to increase the workload?
>
>
>
> The VAM is not used to filter out gusts probably because no one can figure out the algorithm to do so considering what seems often as conflicting information.
>
>
>
> I think the LX, ClearNav and Butterfly as variometers come very close the rest seems just like options on a well equipped car.
>
>
>
> I only wish ClearNav sound to be nicer. The sound award goes to Butterfly and LX. ClearNav are you listening? We want nicer sounding variometer.
>
>
>
> Due to sound of ClearNav vario if I were to choose again I would have gone with LX.

There are many settings on both the vario and VAM filtering. Watching a short video will not give you much of a feel of the capability of these features, as it might in an older, simpler instrument. For example the VAM can be set up as derived from completely barographic information (like traditional netto) in which case it will track the vario needle quite well - and any additional information be effectively discarded. Set up the way I have it, the VAM and vario sometimes don't agree, and I cannot understand why. Much of the time though, when they don't agree it makes perfect sense. In straight flight it pretty much always makes sense, so like others I use the VAM rather than vario for target speed in cruise making it less likely you are chasing gusts instead of rising or sinking air.

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, August 31, 2013 12:11:44 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
> On Saturday, August 31, 2013 7:14:55 AM UTC-7, wrote:
>
> > On Wednesday, August 28, 2013 1:39:50 PM UTC-4, John Carlyle wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > On Tuesday, August 27, 2013 10:02:49 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > I have one and I like it. But I have not used an LX7000 so I cannot compare. It has a zillion more functions and features than the CAI 302 that it replaced in my panel, and has a very nice user interface. It does a bunch of things buut its unique features seem to be:
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > * Nearly instantaneous wind calculation (inertially derived)
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > * Inertially derived Vertical Airmass Movement (VAM) which in theory eliminates horizontal gust errors
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > * Artificial Horizon Reference
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > The VAM requires some interpretation, but I think supplies some new information that I didn't have before. There are some other varios on the market claiming to use inertial sensing, but it is less clear what they actually do with it, if anything.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > What do you think the VAM is telling you that you don't already know?
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > -John, Q3
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > This is a good point. I considered buying the Butterfly variometer to replace the 302 but ended up buying ClearNav. The price was not much of consideration. I watched a couple of videos of the Butterfly variometer in real flight situation and the VAM and the variometer indications hardly ever agreed. This was very confusing. Instead of feeling air pilot would spend more time with eyes in the cockpit watching not one but two indicators and get confused by conflicting information. What sense does it make to increase the workload?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > The VAM is not used to filter out gusts probably because no one can figure out the algorithm to do so considering what seems often as conflicting information.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I think the LX, ClearNav and Butterfly as variometers come very close the rest seems just like options on a well equipped car.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I only wish ClearNav sound to be nicer. The sound award goes to Butterfly and LX. ClearNav are you listening? We want nicer sounding variometer.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Due to sound of ClearNav vario if I were to choose again I would have gone with LX.
>
>
>
> There are many settings on both the vario and VAM filtering. Watching a short video will not give you much of a feel of the capability of these features, as it might in an older, simpler instrument. For example the VAM can be set up as derived from completely barographic information (like traditional netto) in which case it will track the vario needle quite well - and any additional information be effectively discarded. Set up the way I have it, the VAM and vario sometimes don't agree, and I cannot understand why. Much of the time though, when they don't agree it makes perfect sense. In straight flight it pretty much always makes sense, so like others I use the VAM rather than vario for target speed in cruise making it less likely you are chasing gusts instead of rising or sinking air.

In my opinion a variometer to be useful needs reduce pilot's workload. If I have to interpret the two indicators I would rather use my own sensor (the rear end). Maybe there is value in Butterfly variometer it is just not immediately obvious or helpful out of the box.

[[email protected]]

I have about 60hours experience with the BFV installed in my Ventus 2b, soaring in the Alps. The instantaneous wind is very helpful when flying mountain terrain, wave, and convergence. VAM is helpful sorting out gusts vs real usable lift. The BFV sensors, display, hardware and cables are first rate. I am very happy with my purchase and feel the price for all included is a real bargain.

[[email protected]]

El martes, 27 de agosto de 2013 20:59:06 UTC-4, escribió:
> Hello
>
> The Butterfly vario was advertise has a revolution, well almost, on the market.
>
> Is there any pilots using the Butterfly vario who care to comment on the advantages,if any, of this instrument? I am serously interested in acquiring
>
> one but it as to be better than my LX 7000.
>
> Thanks for your input.
>
> Gilles

Hi
I guess this tread has seen it's end. I started it and it confirm my intuition,
the vario is the best but the other pages are not that usefull, one need a
navigation display of some sort.
Thank you all for your input.
Gilles

[Richard[_9_]]

On Monday, September 2, 2013 11:04:50 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> El martes, 27 de agosto de 2013 20:59:06 UTC-4, escribió: > Hello > > The Butterfly vario was advertise has a revolution, well almost, on the market. > > Is there any pilots using the Butterfly vario who care to comment on the advantages,if any, of this instrument? I am serously interested in acquiring > > one but it as to be better than my LX 7000. > > Thanks for your input. > > Gilles Hi I guess this tread has seen it's end. I started it and it confirm my intuition, the vario is the best but the other pages are not that usefull, one need a navigation display of some sort. Thank you all for your input. Gilles

Gilles,

I have approximately 250 hours flying with the Butterfly it does not have all the features of the LX7000, but when connected to an Ultimate Le it has many more features than the LX7000.

Butterfly Vario combines Vario/Speedcommand, basic Backup-Navigation with final-glide calculation, a digital compass, Butterfly FLARM®-Radar with FLARM®-voice output, a robust artificial horizon with true airspeed and true altitude, a fully certified IGC-flight-recorder with many other features that simplify flying.

Please see for all the features:

http://www.craggyaero.com/butterfly.htm

http://www.craggyaero.com/ultimate_le.htm


Richard
www.craggyaero.com



Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[krasw]

> Hi
>
> I guess this tread has seen it's end. I started it and it confirm my intuition,
>
> the vario is the best but the other pages are not that usefull, one need a
>
> navigation display of some sort.
>
> Thank you all for your input.
>
> Gilles

It is a variometer/logger with some additional functions. Why would you compare it to full blown computers? Comparable systems are LXNav V7, Clearnav Vario, C302 etc. Apples and oranges.

[glidergreg]

I have flown with one since the spring in combination with an Oudie,it replaced a a L-NAV/GPS-NAV system. Although it fits the smaller 67mm panel hole it's front footprint is almost the size of an 80mm instrument. I would recommend placing it in a 80mm hole using a reducer ring. The instrument is very daylight readable, functions as advertised except for the wind info. Maybe I have a defective ISU too as was posted by someone else. I bought it as it seemed to be the most advanced instrument on the market since I was doing a major panel upgrade. The Flarm data from a portable flarm unit passed through the Butterfly to a NEMA interface box and then onto the Oudie display. It actually showed the flight path of other gliders near me right on the Oudie moving map. Very useful. The Flarm display on the Butterfly is of little value except as a secondary backup display. Voice warnings work very well however. This device is more expensive than others but not all that much more. Good support from the manufacture too. email or call if you want more info. 847-922-1234 USA

On Tuesday, August 27, 2013 7:59:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> Hello
>
> The Butterfly vario was advertise has a revolution, well almost, on the market.
>
> Is there any pilots using the Butterfly vario who care to comment on the advantages,if any, of this instrument? I am serously interested in acquiring
>
> one but it as to be better than my LX 7000.
>
> Thanks for your input.
>
> Gilles

[jfitch]

On Tuesday, September 3, 2013 8:36:08 AM UTC-7, glidergreg wrote:
> I have flown with one since the spring in combination with an Oudie,it replaced a a L-NAV/GPS-NAV system. Although it fits the smaller 67mm panel hole it's front footprint is almost the size of an 80mm instrument. I would recommend placing it in a 80mm hole using a reducer ring. The instrument is very daylight readable, functions as advertised except for the wind info. Maybe I have a defective ISU too as was posted by someone else. I bought it as it seemed to be the most advanced instrument on the market since I was doing a major panel upgrade. The Flarm data from a portable flarm unit passed through the Butterfly to a NEMA interface box and then onto the Oudie display. It actually showed the flight path of other gliders near me right on the Oudie moving map. Very useful. The Flarm display on the Butterfly is of little value except as a secondary backup display. Voice warnings work very well however. This device is more expensive than others but not all that much more. Good support from the manufacture too. email or call if you want more info. 847-922-1234 USA
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, August 27, 2013 7:59:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
>
> > Hello
>
> >
>
> > The Butterfly vario was advertise has a revolution, well almost, on the market.
>
> >
>
> > Is there any pilots using the Butterfly vario who care to comment on the advantages,if any, of this instrument? I am serously interested in acquiring
>
> >
>
> > one but it as to be better than my LX 7000.
>
> >
>
> > Thanks for your input.
>
> >
>
> > Gilles

What problem are you having with wind? Was the ISU installed per the manual? Yeah I know this is almost impossible, just wondering if you have obvious sources of EMI near the ISU?

[glidergreg]

On Tuesday, August 27, 2013 7:59:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> Hello
>
> The Butterfly vario was advertise has a revolution, well almost, on the market.
>
> Is there any pilots using the Butterfly vario who care to comment on the advantages,if any, of this instrument? I am serously interested in acquiring
>
> one but it as to be better than my LX 7000.
>
> Thanks for your input.
>
> Gilles