Cross country question? How is it done today?

[flgliderpilot[_2_]]

I am fairly green had my PGL for about 3 years now.

Been venturing into cross country, have done my first flight out to another airport, and last weekend, an out to that airport and return, about 30 miles round trip (in a 1-26, no ridges, it's all flat Florida). No it's not very far, but at least I am not just circling the airport for hours, and my enjoyment of soaring has been taken to a new level.

However, I was told recently by an older experienced pilot that using a GPS is "not the correct way to do it". Instead I should be thinking "can I get there... now can I get there... can I get there...". I understand this ideology, but I am pretty sure nearly everyone is using GPS these days.

So, does this mean I should not use modern navigation technology? I know how to plot a cross country flight on paper of course, and required altitudes to the next safe landing area.

Does this mean I should I actually be drawing circles on charts, carrying a slide ruler to calculate arrival height at various distances, and mechanically doing everything my GPS is doing for me? This means I am not looking for traffic, or thermalling but instead flipping through charts and playing with a slide ruler or E6B, and my eyes are not outside the canopy.

Anyway, please enlighten a new pilot, I am listening intently. if I should not be using a GPS at this point I'll go without.

Thanks
Tom

[Scott Calvert[_2_]]

At 14:22 11 September 2013, flgliderpilot wrote:
>I am fairly green had my PGL for about 3 years now.
>
>Been venturing into cross country, have done my first flight out
to
>another=
> airport, and last weekend, an out to that airport and return,
about 30
>mil=
>es round trip (in a 1-26, no ridges, it's all flat Florida). No it's
not
>v=
>ery far, but at least I am not just circling the airport for hours,
and my
>=
>enjoyment of soaring has been taken to a new level. =20
>
>However, I was told recently by an older experienced pilot that
using a
>GPS=
> is "not the correct way to do it". Instead I should be thinking
"can I
>ge=
>t there... now can I get there... can I get there...". I
understand this
>i=
>deology, but I am pretty sure nearly everyone is using GPS
these days.
>
>So, does this mean I should not use modern navigation
technology? I know
>ho=
>w to plot a cross country flight on paper of course, and
required
>altitudes=
> to the next safe landing area.
>
>Does this mean I should I actually be drawing circles on
charts, carrying
>a=
> slide ruler to calculate arrival height at various distances, and
>mechanic=
>ally doing everything my GPS is doing for me? This means I
am not looking
>f=
>or traffic, or thermalling but instead flipping through charts and
playing
>=
>with a slide ruler or E6B, and my eyes are not outside the
canopy.=20
>
>Anyway, please enlighten a new pilot, I am listening intently. if
I
>should=
> not be using a GPS at this point I'll go without.
>
>Thanks
>Tom
>
>
>

What happens if your GPS dies?

[[email protected]]

Why does it have to be one way or the other? Yes. These new gismos are very useful and they help a pilot manage the workload and allow more time to consider options. But, if you can’t navigate without them, you are more of a button pusher and less of a pilot. What happens when the batteries die?

You also need to be able to reason out whether the device is accurately processing the info correctly. Get the settings wrong and the information will be wrong. Most of these flight computers will tell you that you have a glide to somewhere without factoring in the terrain. I try to develop my own rules-of-thumb for making decisions. I always have a paper chart in the glider and I know how to read it.

Enjoy your cross country adventures. Learn all you can from other pilots. Develop your own philosophy for making decisions. Get a GPS and learn how to use it but don’t depend on it to tell you what to do.

Steve Rathbun -R5

[BobW]

On 9/11/2013 8:22 AM, flgliderpilot wrote:
> I am fairly green had my PGL for about 3 years now.
>
> Been venturing into cross country, have done my first flight out to another
> airport, and last weekend, an out to that airport and return, about 30
> miles round trip (in a 1-26, no ridges, it's all flat Florida). <Snip...>

Congratulations on crossing a Major Psychological Hurdle...going XC!

> However, I was told recently by an older experienced pilot that using a GPS
> is "not the correct way to do it". Instead I should be thinking "can I get
> there... now can I get there... can I get there...". I understand this
> ideology, but I am pretty sure nearly everyone is using GPS these days.
>
> So, does this mean I should not use modern navigation technology? I know
> how to plot a cross country flight on paper of course, and required
> altitudes to the next safe landing area.
>
> Does this mean I should I actually be drawing circles on charts, carrying a
> slide ruler to calculate arrival height at various distances, and
> mechanically doing everything my GPS is doing for me? This means I am not
> looking for traffic, or thermalling but instead flipping through charts and
> playing with a slide ruler or E6B, and my eyes are not outside the canopy.

Let the religious arguments begin!!!

Writing as one who's never flown with other than paper chart w. self-drawn
circles, a homemade Willie Makeit glide chart, a conservative (used 3
miles/1000' for 1-26s, under most conditions) no-brainer mental calculator and
a desire to have gobs of self-generated XC fun challenges, here's my feedback.

With apologies to Bill Murray: "It doesn't matter. It just doesn't matter. It
REALLY just doesn't doesn't matter!"...whether you use charts or
battery-powered glowing screens.

What matters is that you learn the (safety-enhancing) basics: how to
"relaxedly" pick safe landing fields; how to most safely fly landing patterns
into fields/strange-to-you airports; how to judge IF you can reach your chosen
field(s). Neither charts nor GPS will help you if you can't do these things.
Sure, both have value (for navigation/airspace reasons), but in much of the
U.S. neither is CRUCIAL to safely and legally soaring XC, so use what works
for you, bearing in mind that electronic devices can stop working for a host
of reasons.

Regardless of which navigational approach you use, your brain at all times
should (must?) be fully engaged on what's outside your canopy. Safer, much
more funner, and makes for longer soaring flights, too - woo hoo! What good
will it do you if you (say) hit another airplane while knowing exactly where
you are...or doing the same thing when "navigationally befuddled?" All good
things come only from remaining aloft and plugging away. Knowing where you
are, believing you can reach "some safe out" when you in fact can't, etc. are
all secondary to always being able to safely land somewhere...and only Joe
Pilot controls that.

And Most Importantly, have fun however you skin the cat!

Bob W.

[flgliderpilot[_2_]]

> What happens if your GPS dies?

Same things that happens if my ruler ends up behind my seat, or I make a gross error in the slide rule calculations. I fly field to field, until I realize I am not going to make it to the next field (kinda easy to see, the field is rising in my canbopy). I pick one of the 3 fields I have selected as a possible landout for this scenario, and I land in it.

[Soartech]

> > What happens if your GPS dies?
>
> Same things that happens if my ruler ends up behind my seat, or I make a gross error in the slide rule calculations. I fly field to field, until I realize I am not going to make it to the next field (kinda easy to see, the field is rising in my canopy). I pick one of the 3 fields I have selected as a possible landout for this scenario, and I land in it.

Exactly. You already knew the answer to your question.
Make sure your batteries are good and use the GPS. It is far easier and faster to use than the old methods. I can't even imagine unfolding a map in the confines of my sailplane. If the GPS fails, just fly conservatively, stay as high as possible and choose a good field if you can't make it to your goal.

[flgliderpilot[_2_]]

On Wednesday, September 11, 2013 12:53:09 PM UTC-4, Soartech wrote:
> > > What happens if your GPS dies?
>
> >
>
> > Same things that happens if my ruler ends up behind my seat, or I make a gross error in the slide rule calculations. I fly field to field, until I realize I am not going to make it to the next field (kinda easy to see, the field is rising in my canopy). I pick one of the 3 fields I have selected as a possible landout for this scenario, and I land in it.
>
>
>
> Exactly. You already knew the answer to your question.
>
> Make sure your batteries are good and use the GPS. It is far easier and faster to use than the old methods. I can't even imagine unfolding a map in the confines of my sailplane. If the GPS fails, just fly conservatively, stay as high as possible and choose a good field if you can't make it to your goal.

Thanks, I really appreciate your opinion on this.

Tom

[Bob Kuykendall]

Good advice from Bob W!

One important thing to keep in mind is to not cede control of your destiny to your devices, electronic or otherwise. They are useful, but not omniscient. They will give you information to guide your decisions, but be leery of falling into the trap of letting them make the decisions for you. Somewhere in the back of your mind, remember how silly it would sound telling an FAA or NTSB representative, or even a sheriff or irate farmer "the box said I could make it, so that's what I tried."

And don't forget to come out west for some real cross-country soaring.

Thanks, Bob K.

[flgliderpilot[_2_]]

>I always have a paper chart in the glider and I know how to read it.
>

Understood, but when heading into a headwind or a cross wind, are you doing these arrival altitude calculations for the nearest airport in the cockpit? Ground school had us pre-calcualate these, but conditions change, and if off course, nearest airport changes also.

Thanks
Tom

[Dan Marotta]

You got it right when you said that you monitor whether the intended landing
field is rising or lowering in your windscreen...


"flgliderpilot" > wrote in message
...
>I always have a paper chart in the glider and I know how to read it.
>

Understood, but when heading into a headwind or a cross wind, are you doing
these arrival altitude calculations for the nearest airport in the cockpit?
Ground school had us pre-calcualate these, but conditions change, and if off
course, nearest airport changes also.

Thanks
Tom

[flgliderpilot[_2_]]

On Wednesday, September 11, 2013 1:54:37 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> You got it right when you said that you monitor whether the intended landing
>
> field is rising or lowering in your windscreen...

Thank you Sir.

Tom

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

flgliderpilot wrote, On 9/11/2013 8:54 AM:
>> What happens if your GPS dies?
>
> Same things that happens if my ruler ends up behind my seat, or I
> make a gross error in the slide rule calculations. I fly field to
> field, until I realize I am not going to make it to the next field
> (kinda easy to see, the field is rising in my canbopy). I pick one of
> the 3 fields I have selected as a possible landout for this scenario,
> and I land in it.

That's one good solution. I currently carry charts as a backup, because
I used them for about 15 years before Loran, then GPS became options, so
I know how to use them well.

Even so, next year I plan to ditch the charts, and carry another,
independent, flight computer. It might be a Butterfly or ClearNav vario
with battery backup, an app on a smartphone/tablet thingy, or maybe a
PNA running XCsoar.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

[Daniel Sazhin]

Get out your spare batteries :p And when those die, pillage the ones in the
oxygen system. Ask me how I know.

Regards,
Daniel

>>
>
>What happens if your GPS dies?
>
>
>

[BobW]

On 9/11/2013 10:53 AM, Soartech wrote:
>

> <Snip...> I can't even imagine unfolding a map in the confines of my
> sailplane.

Not to be contentious, but why would anyone seriously consider "unfolding a
map" in the confines of a sailplane? I certainly never did. I simply
pre-folded my sectional to place my launch site more or less in the middle of
a flat rectangle of map, folded wisely (as in, if I flew off the pre-selected
area, the next en-route area was no more than a fold away [sometimes two, if I
wished to keep my map rectangle the same size]), and occasionally hauled it
out as necessary (usually to double-check a town or distance). In less
familiar to me areas, I sometimes used my non-stick thumb to keep my place on
the sectional.

It's not as if glider XC speed-made-good is fast enough to warrant constant
refolding. Point being if refolding really is a problem, something needs to be
rethought...

Kinda-sorta related to the original question, try not and overthink XC issues.

Priority One is always to soar - as in, remain aloft. All the other stuff
merely tags along...navigation, can I get "there," O2 altitude (I know, not
generally a concern in FL), communication, speed made good, etc., etc.

Priority Two is to always be prepared (mentally and physically - as in you can
actually GET to your chosen field) to safely land along the way, because if
you fly XC you ARE going to make off-field landings, regardless of ship type.
To think otherwise is to make a serious mental error.

How you accomplish "priorities 3 through infinity" should reflect how you
think and interact with "all your soaring accoutrements." KISS is good, IMHO.

For example, I've never found it difficult/onerous to perform mental glide
calculations while on course. "X miles per thousand feet" and a decent
awareness of where I am (no cheating; you're AT wherever it is you're directly
above, NOT what you can see at some slight angle!) was/is dirt simple for me.
Where I can get from "there" sorts of "glider calculations" aren't
fundamentally different than is estimating where I plan to gas up the vehicle
when driving through western boonies...merely the view is distinctly more
pleasurable!

Bob - simple is good - W.

P.S. It would be fascinating to know the rates of airspace violations by
glider guiders, pre- and post-GPS. Even a cursory reading of contest reports
and scores on the SSA website quickly reveals a continuing litany of "airspace
violation penalties." GPS = "complete navigational precision?" Not!

[Tony[_5_]]

On Wednesday, September 11, 2013 4:48:25 PM UTC-5, BobW wrote:
> On 9/11/2013 10:53 AM, Soartech wrote:
>
> >
>
>
>
> > <Snip...> I can't even imagine unfolding a map in the confines of my
>
> > sailplane.
>
>
>
> Not to be contentious, but why would anyone seriously consider "unfolding a
>
> map" in the confines of a sailplane? I certainly never did. I simply
>
> pre-folded my sectional to place my launch site more or less in the middle of
>
> a flat rectangle of map, folded wisely (as in, if I flew off the pre-selected
>
> area, the next en-route area was no more than a fold away [sometimes two, if I
>
> wished to keep my map rectangle the same size]), and occasionally hauled it
>
> out as necessary (usually to double-check a town or distance). In less
>
> familiar to me areas, I sometimes used my non-stick thumb to keep my place on
>
> the sectional.
>
>
>
> It's not as if glider XC speed-made-good is fast enough to warrant constant
>
> refolding. Point being if refolding really is a problem, something needs to be
>
> rethought...
>
>
>
> Kinda-sorta related to the original question, try not and overthink XC issues.
>
>
>
> Priority One is always to soar - as in, remain aloft. All the other stuff
>
> merely tags along...navigation, can I get "there," O2 altitude (I know, not
>
> generally a concern in FL), communication, speed made good, etc., etc.
>
>
>
> Priority Two is to always be prepared (mentally and physically - as in you can
>
> actually GET to your chosen field) to safely land along the way, because if
>
> you fly XC you ARE going to make off-field landings, regardless of ship type.
>
> To think otherwise is to make a serious mental error.
>
>
>
> How you accomplish "priorities 3 through infinity" should reflect how you
>
> think and interact with "all your soaring accoutrements." KISS is good, IMHO.
>
>
>
> For example, I've never found it difficult/onerous to perform mental glide
>
> calculations while on course. "X miles per thousand feet" and a decent
>
> awareness of where I am (no cheating; you're AT wherever it is you're directly
>
> above, NOT what you can see at some slight angle!) was/is dirt simple for me.
>
> Where I can get from "there" sorts of "glider calculations" aren't
>
> fundamentally different than is estimating where I plan to gas up the vehicle
>
> when driving through western boonies...merely the view is distinctly more
>
> pleasurable!
>
>
>
> Bob - simple is good - W.
>
>
>
> P.S. It would be fascinating to know the rates of airspace violations by
>
> glider guiders, pre- and post-GPS. Even a cursory reading of contest reports
>
> and scores on the SSA website quickly reveals a continuing litany of "airspace
>
> violation penalties." GPS = "complete navigational precision?" Not!

The GPS just makes the airspace violation much easier to prove.

I started off without a GPS but that was only because I couldn't afford one.. Now I don't leave home without it. In a 1-26 though, it's not too hard to tell whether or not you can glide to the next field. You don't need an advanced glide computer. If you can't see it you can't make it and if you can see it you might be able to make it. The only exception is if you can't see it because the nose is in the way, in which case you probably can make it. These same rules apply when I fly the Cherokee XC. Have fun!

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Wed, 11 Sep 2013 15:48:25 -0600, BobW wrote:

> P.S. It would be fascinating to know the rates of airspace violations by
> glider guiders, pre- and post-GPS. Even a cursory reading of contest
> reports and scores on the SSA website quickly reveals a continuing
> litany of "airspace violation penalties." GPS = "complete navigational
> precision?" Not!
>
Indeed, but there are different sorts of GPS units. If you ask that
question of a pilot flying with a vanilla device such as a Garmin GPS II+
or eTrex which points at your next waypoint and might tell you your cross
track error if you're lucky, I think the answer is that it doesn't do
anything more to keep you out of airspace than a map does.

However, if you're using even a very cheap satnav that is running LK8000,
XCSoar or equivalent with up to date map and airspace files and you've
set the airspace warnings appropriately, i.e. at least 500 feet vertical
warning and 60 seconds horizontal warning, then its very much easier to
stay clear of airspace.

Both programs will suppress airspace you're not in danger of entering:
this keeps the screen uncluttered. But, if you get within the vertical or
horizontal warning distances the airspace will be shown and an audible
alert is sounded.

In the UK its also possible to download a file containing plottable NOTAMs
for the day and to install that alongside the static airspace file for
use by XCSoar, LK8000, etc. This is excellent for avoiding temporary
NOTAMed airspace around air shows, major sporting events, etc.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

BobW wrote, On 9/11/2013 2:48 PM:
> On 9/11/2013 10:53 AM, Soartech wrote:
>>
>
>> <Snip...> I can't even imagine unfolding a map in the confines of my
>> sailplane.
>
> Not to be contentious, but why would anyone seriously consider
> "unfolding a map" in the confines of a sailplane? I certainly never did.
> I simply pre-folded my sectional to place my launch site more or less in
> the middle of a flat rectangle of map, folded wisely (as in, if I flew
> off the pre-selected area, the next en-route area was no more than a
> fold away [sometimes two, if I wished to keep my map rectangle the same
> size]), and occasionally hauled it out as necessary (usually to
> double-check a town or distance). In less familiar to me areas, I
> sometimes used my non-stick thumb to keep my place on the sectional.

You must have fly in very different places than I do, and you must fly a
much lower L/d glider. Keeping the map(s) in the right place was
constant struggle for me, even in relatively roomy cockpits like the Std
Cirrus and ASW 20. and a huge pain in the 301 Libelle. Flying in places
like Nevada with a high performance glider means my airport can be 60 or
70 miles away and in reach, but it's on the other side of the fold.
Unfold, you say? Well, then my alternate, which might be behind me,
disappears.

Worst case: fly where four maps come together - super hassle trying keep
track of where I am and what my options are.
>
> For example, I've never found it difficult/onerous to perform mental
> glide calculations while on course. "X miles per thousand feet" and a
> decent awareness of where I am (no cheating; you're AT wherever it is
> you're directly above, NOT what you can see at some slight angle!)
> was/is dirt simple for me. Where I can get from "there" sorts of "glider
> calculations" aren't fundamentally different than is estimating where I
> plan to gas up the vehicle when driving through western boonies...merely
> the view is distinctly more pleasurable!

Sure, it's easy in flat lands, but not where there are mountains. I
can't use the distance/elevation of the airport, but have to use the
distance/elevation of somewhere along the mountain ridge that's between
me and the airport. That ups the mental effort a lot.
>
> Bob - simple is good - W.

Agreed! But ... you find GPS complicated and maps simple; I find the
reverse.
>
> P.S. It would be fascinating to know the rates of airspace violations by
> glider guiders, pre- and post-GPS. Even a cursory reading of contest
> reports and scores on the SSA website quickly reveals a continuing
> litany of "airspace violation penalties." GPS = "complete navigational
> precision?" Not!

The rates are much lower now, because now it's easier to avoid
unintentional violations, and pilots are much more motivated to avoid
intentional violations because they know they will be caught.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Martin Gregorie wrote, On 9/11/2013 4:18 PM:
> On Wed, 11 Sep 2013 15:48:25 -0600, BobW wrote:
>
>> P.S. It would be fascinating to know the rates of airspace violations by
>> glider guiders, pre- and post-GPS. Even a cursory reading of contest
>> reports and scores on the SSA website quickly reveals a continuing
>> litany of "airspace violation penalties." GPS = "complete navigational
>> precision?" Not!
>>

snip
>
> In the UK its also possible to download a file containing plottable NOTAMs
> for the day and to install that alongside the static airspace file for
> use by XCSoar, LK8000, etc. This is excellent for avoiding temporary
> NOTAMed airspace around air shows, major sporting events, etc.

Thanks to Lynn Alley, US pilots can now do the same thing. With all the
fires we had in the West this year, getting the TFRs on the screen was
very useful.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

[Walt Connelly]

Tom, just remember if you land in a farmers field here is what you do. As he approaches in his Pick em up truck, get down on your knees, close your eyes, clasp your hands in front of you and say, "heavenly father, I thank you for having this wonderful farmer's field here for me to land in. I'm sorry if I scared his prized Hereford bull, I didn't mean to. I'm sure my insurance company will pay for any damages, AMEN." Also remember that if he is wearing a cowboy hat he is a Cracker, a baseball cap means he is a red neck and no hat means he is from New York and doesn't want to look like a Cracker or Red Neck. Call me if it's a Cracker or Red Neck, I can deal with them for you....a New Yakker and you are on your own.

Walt

[Dave Springford]

>
> Understood, but when heading into a headwind or a cross wind, are you doing >these arrival altitude calculations for the nearest airport in the cockpit? >Ground school had us pre-calcualate these, but conditions change, and if off >course, nearest airport changes also.

Hi Tom,

While airport hopping, or hoping as the case may be, is a technique that soothes the neophite cross-country pilot, in the long run it is counter-productive as it has you focus on the wrong things, such as you mention above.

You do not NEED to be able to glide to an airport at all times, but you do NEED to be able to glide to a landable field at all times. So, forget about continuous calculations to each airport enroute. Do the planning pre-flight and use those numbers. As you are flying, continually assess the conditions, your progress and availability of suitable landing options.

Of course, in some parts of the world, airports are the only option and you need to be able to reach a landable option. In FL, you should have plenty of field options. Sure, fields are inconvenient, but it's all part of cross-country soaring.

[Daniel Sazhin]

Because I have come across this issue a second time, being a Brooklyn
native, I must step in and educate the proper way to say "New Yorker." It
isn't New Yakker.. it's "New Yokaah!"

Cheers,
Daniel

At 23:58 11 September 2013, Walt Connelly wrote:
>
>Tom, just remember if you land in a farmers field here is what you do.
>As he approaches in his Pick em up truck, get down on your knees, close
>your eyes, clasp your hands in front of you and say, "heavenly father, I
>thank you for having this wonderful farmer's field here for me to land
>in. I'm sorry if I scared his prized Hereford bull, I didn't mean to.
>I'm sure my insurance company will pay for any damages, AMEN." Also
>remember that if he is wearing a cowboy hat he is a Cracker, a baseball
>cap means he is a red neck and no hat means he is from New York and
>doesn't want to look like a Cracker or Red Neck. Call me if it's a
>Cracker or Red Neck, I can deal with them for you....a New Yakker and
>you are on your own.
>
>Walt
>
>
>
>
>--
>Walt Connelly
>

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

On 9/11/2013 5:46 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> BobW wrote, On 9/11/2013 2:48 PM:
>> On 9/11/2013 10:53 AM, Soartech wrote:
>>
>>> <Snip...> I can't even imagine unfolding a map in the confines of my
>>> sailplane.
>>
>> Not to be contentious, but why would anyone seriously consider
>> "unfolding a map" in the confines of a sailplane? I certainly never did.
>> I simply pre-folded my sectional to place my launch site more or less in
>> the middle of a flat rectangle of map, folded wisely (as in, if I flew
>> off the pre-selected area, the next en-route area was no more than a
>> fold away [sometimes two, if I wished to keep my map rectangle the same
>> size]), and occasionally hauled it out as necessary (usually to
>> double-check a town or distance). In less familiar to me areas, I
>> sometimes used my non-stick thumb to keep my place on the sectional.
>
> You must have fly in very different places than I do, and you must fly a much
> lower L/d glider.

My soaring area since '79: generally a jagged-edged triangle bounded on the
south and east by a line between the panhandle of Texas to Moriarty, NM and
north up the front range of the Rockies in New Mexico, Colorado & Wyoming, &
west across the mountains usually less than 100 miles (l - o - n - g retrieve
if one can't get back across the continental divide limited my crewless
boldness when soaring from my home base of Boulder). Primary ship: 1st
generation, 15 meter glass Zuni I.

Keeping the map(s) in the right place was constant struggle
> for me, even in relatively roomy cockpits like the Std Cirrus and ASW 20. and
> a huge pain in the 301 Libelle. Flying in places like Nevada with a high
> performance glider means my airport can be 60 or 70 miles away and in reach,
> but it's on the other side of the fold. Unfold, you say? Well, then my
> alternate, which might be behind me, disappears.

I stow maps beneath my thigh and/or behind the side stick (slightly more
convenient than the thigh)...or, leave 'em on my lap (side stick, again).

Maybe I navigate differently than many? In the absence of airspace issues
(i.e. generally the case in the above triangle), even in new-to-me areas I
don't generally care much *exactly* where I am, so long as I'm satisfied I'm
more or less along my intended course line. In the typical visibility of the
western U.S., navigation tends to be a piece of cake. So no need to be
constantly map referencing. For quick distance reference, I simply use
10-mile-increment circles centered on airports, until they overlap. I can't
recall ever having to go more than 50 miles with my circles in "airport
sparse" areas. Sort of a paper-based "bread crumb trail," I suppose. A quick
glance at the map and the running tape measure in my mind suffice for any
distance calculations necessary.

> Worst case: fly where four maps come together - super hassle trying keep track
> of where I am and what my options are.

Check out Dalhart, TX. Taped-together sectionals definitely recommended,
there. BTDT, using the above system. Worked fine for me.

Reiterating, I recommend using whatever works for Joe Pilot. Being a simple
minded kind of guy, I happen to appreciate simplicity.

Bob - never even mildly lost - W.

[[email protected]]

Thanks gentlemen, I appreciate your input!

[C-FFKQ (42)]

I fly in Southern Ontario, where we're bounded by the Great Lakes. My navigation is simple... if I hit a big lake, "home" is the other way! We're also up on a very large plateau, so if we drop off the top, turn around :) (No turn points out that way).

I'm being silly, of course. I use GPS and carry a letter-size sheet with the turn-points and major objects on it for most navigation, plus the VNC is tucked in by my hip.

[C-FFKQ (42)]

I should also add:
If I fly across a big river between two big lakes, then I will likely meet up with F-16 pilots who will be very cross with me.

[Surge]

With my limited experience of soaring, using maps, slide rules, etc. while soaring is plain stupid in this day and age in my opinion.
There just isn't time to do finicky calculations while you should be scanning for other traffic and looking where you're flying, where the next source of lift is, where's the next possible outlanding field, etc.

If the GPS should fail so what? You already have a suitable outlanding location identified and you've already got a good idea of which direction you're flying and how far you're likely to glide so what is the problem?
A map and "old school tools" isn't likely to make you glide any further and it certainly won't automatically select a suitable outlanding spot for you.
If anything it will keep your eyes busy inside the cockpit while you fly yourself into trouble.

Use a GPS and "fly the plane".

[Papa3[_2_]]

I taught XC Ground School for several years. We covered the basics of course selection, navigation, off-field landings, etc. At one point, we fooled around with the old-style whiz-wheels and some of the underlying calculations using spreadsheet tables to illustrate the finer points of glide angles, headwinds/tailwinds, speeds to fly, etc.

The week after the whiz-wheel exercise, one of the students shows up at the next class all excited to share with us his creation (be forewarned - he's an engineer). He had created a slide rule of sorts using rigid plastic, sliding windows, and a graph. He had mapped out the airports (public use and private) for a silver distance flight using a 1-26. If you "just slide this bar here, input the McCready speed by moving this here, use the lookup table to find the airports in range here after applying a safety margin here..." The device was about 2 feet square and insanely complicated. We had a good laugh, but it did bring home the point. The first XC flights aren't so much about finely calculated maneuvers as they are about having faith in the sky ahead of you and the fields around you. Loose rules of thumb and general awareness of location are usually good enough given the broader uncertainties mother nature throws at you.

P3

On Thursday, September 12, 2013 10:16:41 AM UTC-4, Surge wrote:
> With my limited experience of soaring, using maps, slide rules, etc. while soaring is plain stupid in this day and age in my opinion.
>
> There just isn't time to do finicky calculations while you should be scanning for other traffic and looking where you're flying, where the next source of lift is, where's the next possible outlanding field, etc.
>
> If the GPS should fail so what? You already have a suitable outlanding location identified and you've already got a good idea of which direction you're flying and how far you're likely to glide so what is the problem?
>
> A map and "old school tools" isn't likely to make you glide any further and it certainly won't automatically select a suitable outlanding spot for you.
>
> If anything it will keep your eyes busy inside the cockpit while you fly yourself into trouble.
>
>
>
> Use a GPS and "fly the plane".

[[email protected]]

Tom,

Congratulations on beginning to find what soaring is all about!

Join the 1-26 Association if you have not. Incredible support and encouragement for $15 per year, and you can find anything you need to know about the 1-26 from people on the email list.

Get either an Oudie or similar device and learn the program. Oudie has the See You mobile soft ware, or you can get one of the cheaper or free ware programs already mentioned above. But you need to learn the program on the ground. Set up the program with a safety altitude for glides, ie 1000 ft above the ground for pattern altitude.

Even in a 1-26 it can be difficult to judge glides especially when you go from downwind to upwind etc... The program helps a lot with this as well as awareness of where you are, airspace ...

Do not think you can fly airport to airport in a 1-26 like many of the 40:1 birds can, but you do not have to. You just have to keep a safe place to land within reach. YOU CAN FLY CROSS-COUNTRY IN A 1-26!!!

Yes, you will meet more people on land outs than 40:1 pilots will, and there will be days when a 1-26 cannot go cross-country and a higher glide ratio ship can, but you can land in smaller fields safer and easier, giving the 1-26 a great advantage especially in beginning cross-country.

I would encourage you to at least get your Silver badge in the 1-26.

Kevin R. Anderson
192

[[email protected]]

> Join the 1-26 Association if you have not. Incredible support and encouragement for $15 per year, and you can find anything you need to know about the 1-26 from people on the email list.
>
>
> I would encourage you to at least get your Silver badge in the 1-26.
>

Hi Kevin, I have been a member of the 1-26 association for about 3 years now. I purchased the 1-26E specifically with the intent of doing cross country (and my silver) in it, so no encouragement necessary :)

Tom
599

[Mike I Green]

Hi Kevin,

You might consider going to a Cross Country Camp. In a week you have
lectures in the morning from experienced cross country pilots and flying
during the afternoon, sometimes dual. Air Sailing has a good one as do
other glider-ports.

MG

--
Mike I Green

[[email protected]]

\
> You might consider going to a Cross Country Camp. In a week you have
>
> lectures in the morning from experienced cross country pilots and flying
>
> during the afternoon, sometimes dual. Air Sailing has a good one as do
>
> other glider-ports.

Thanks, have you read the thread?

[[email protected]]

Tom,

If you can, come to the Champs next June at Caesar Creek Club in Ohio. They will be in June, and you will learn more in a week and a half there than you can learn in 2 years on your own.

It is a friendly site, and there will be people that will be glad to help and mentor you.

Kevin

192

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Bob Whelan wrote, On 9/11/2013 8:39 PM:
> On 9/11/2013 5:46 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:

>
>> Worst case: fly where four maps come together - super hassle trying
>> keep track
>> of where I am and what my options are.
>
> Check out Dalhart, TX. Taped-together sectionals definitely recommended,
> there. BTDT, using the above system. Worked fine for me.
>
> Reiterating, I recommend using whatever works for Joe Pilot. Being a
> simple minded kind of guy, I happen to appreciate simplicity.
>
> Bob - never even mildly lost - W.

I did all that, too, and what a bloody nuisance redoing it every year to
keep the charts up to date. There were other problems: over the years,
I've marked dozens and dozens of uncharted landing places on the maps.
Every map change meant tediously putting all these places on the new
map; with the GPS, I just update the database - easy and accurate. I can
also put comments on each database entry, making it easier to remember
what the field, duster strip, whatever is like.

Circles around airports? That worked when I didn't go very far, but with
my typical 200-350 mile flights - unworkable. Unless it's a super day, I
might target a 20 or more landing places as I work my way around the
task. Putting circles on every point in my database would make the map
almost unusable.

And then there is cost: I fly in 5 to 10 states in a typical season, so
buying new maps every year can equal the cost of a flight computer in
just a few years.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

[Morgan[_2_]]

About a month ago while flying a borrowed glider, my Streak batteries died and I had no GPS to tell me if I could glide back to the home base. I was mortified. Contemplated pulling the dive brakes and landing at the airport I was over, because 30+ miles with no glide computer and a 3k AGL day must be impossible. I am kidding. The reality is that when I have lost GPS, like this flight, I just fly a bit more conservatively because long distances are hard to judge, so I use closer points that are maybe 10-15:1 away to gauge progress.

As you have already discovered, you don't need a GPS or a Chart or a wiz-wheel. You need a sensible head and to pay attention to your surroundings and what the landmarks are doing as you fly towards them.

I can't eyeball a 40:1 glide and know I'm going to make it to that obscured place on the horizon, but I can sure tell that the field 10:1 away is sliding under the nose. I came sailplanes from hang gliders, where you rarely even consider using a chart or relying on a glide computer for glide calculation so concern with the glide computer started out very low for me. I actually fly with two in my glider. An L-Nav and a Dell Streak. They are set up differently and rarely agree perfectly on glide. That's useful since the Streak is my pessimist and the L-Nav is my optimist

Definitely get yourself a GPS. If nothing else, being able to review your logs in See You is an amazing tool for learning from your own decisions. You'll also gain an appreciation for the performance or lack thereof of your glider as you can see in real-time how you are doing towards a fixed point..

I do find that the GPS enables me to think farther ahead. If I'm 2000 above a conservative glide to an airport, I'm not spending as much time looking at closer alternatives. This is probably more of a high-performance glider issue than a 1-26 issue, but freeing processor cycles for more important activities is a good thing. If you think you can reach Airport X, and you have 5 landable fields in between you and Airport X, you'll be more comfortably focusing on the clouds or looking for birds or other indicators of lift. You get to focus on the soaring more as you've got an easily monitored data point to gauge your progress.

Sounds like you are doing it right though. Head out of the cockpit, field to field. Fun stuff. Don't be afraid to augment that judgement with tools that we have available.






On Wednesday, September 11, 2013 7:22:16 AM UTC-7, flgliderpilot wrote:
> I am fairly green had my PGL for about 3 years now.
>
>
>
> Been venturing into cross country, have done my first flight out to another airport, and last weekend, an out to that airport and return, about 30 miles round trip (in a 1-26, no ridges, it's all flat Florida). No it's not very far, but at least I am not just circling the airport for hours, and my enjoyment of soaring has been taken to a new level.
>
>
>
> However, I was told recently by an older experienced pilot that using a GPS is "not the correct way to do it". Instead I should be thinking "can I get there... now can I get there... can I get there...". I understand this ideology, but I am pretty sure nearly everyone is using GPS these days.
>
>
>
> So, does this mean I should not use modern navigation technology? I know how to plot a cross country flight on paper of course, and required altitudes to the next safe landing area.
>
>
>
> Does this mean I should I actually be drawing circles on charts, carrying a slide ruler to calculate arrival height at various distances, and mechanically doing everything my GPS is doing for me? This means I am not looking for traffic, or thermalling but instead flipping through charts and playing with a slide ruler or E6B, and my eyes are not outside the canopy.
>
>
>
> Anyway, please enlighten a new pilot, I am listening intently. if I should not be using a GPS at this point I'll go without.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Tom

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, September 11, 2013 10:22:16 AM UTC-4, flgliderpilot wrote:
> I am fairly green had my PGL for about 3 years now.
>
>
>
> Been venturing into cross country, have done my first flight out to another airport, and last weekend, an out to that airport and return, about 30 miles round trip (in a 1-26, no ridges, it's all flat Florida). No it's not very far, but at least I am not just circling the airport for hours, and my enjoyment of soaring has been taken to a new level.
>
>
>
> However, I was told recently by an older experienced pilot that using a GPS is "not the correct way to do it". Instead I should be thinking "can I get there... now can I get there... can I get there...". I understand this ideology, but I am pretty sure nearly everyone is using GPS these days.
>
>
>
> So, does this mean I should not use modern navigation technology? I know how to plot a cross country flight on paper of course, and required altitudes to the next safe landing area.
>
>
>
> Does this mean I should I actually be drawing circles on charts, carrying a slide ruler to calculate arrival height at various distances, and mechanically doing everything my GPS is doing for me? This means I am not looking for traffic, or thermalling but instead flipping through charts and playing with a slide ruler or E6B, and my eyes are not outside the canopy.
>
>
>
> Anyway, please enlighten a new pilot, I am listening intently. if I should not be using a GPS at this point I'll go without.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Tom

honest and humble opinion: if you want to fly with GPS that's fine.In fact as your confidence and skills improve, and as your flights lengthen in duration and distance, i'd recommend it.

however: there is something to be said for learning the basic "manual" navigation skills as building blocks. in any case you should have a map no matter what, and in the event that you're flying with GPS and everything goes "lights out", you should have the confidence to continue on or head home with just a map.

but there is no one right answer. some people like to fly with maps, some like GPS.

[Dan Marotta]

Years ago I learned that, for a 40ish to 1 ship, you could hold out two
fingers at arm's length such that the top of the fingers rests on the under
side of the horizon. Anything visible below the second finger is reachable
at your present altitude. Give it a try! I suppose 3 fingers would work
just fine for a 1-26.


"Morgan" > wrote in message
...
About a month ago while flying a borrowed glider, my Streak batteries died
and I had no GPS to tell me if I could glide back to the home base. I was
mortified. Contemplated pulling the dive brakes and landing at the airport
I was over, because 30+ miles with no glide computer and a 3k AGL day must
be impossible. I am kidding. The reality is that when I have lost GPS,
like this flight, I just fly a bit more conservatively because long
distances are hard to judge, so I use closer points that are maybe 10-15:1
away to gauge progress.

As you have already discovered, you don't need a GPS or a Chart or a
wiz-wheel. You need a sensible head and to pay attention to your
surroundings and what the landmarks are doing as you fly towards them.

I can't eyeball a 40:1 glide and know I'm going to make it to that obscured
place on the horizon, but I can sure tell that the field 10:1 away is
sliding under the nose. I came sailplanes from hang gliders, where you
rarely even consider using a chart or relying on a glide computer for glide
calculation so concern with the glide computer started out very low for me.
I actually fly with two in my glider. An L-Nav and a Dell Streak. They are
set up differently and rarely agree perfectly on glide. That's useful since
the Streak is my pessimist and the L-Nav is my optimist

Definitely get yourself a GPS. If nothing else, being able to review your
logs in See You is an amazing tool for learning from your own decisions.
You'll also gain an appreciation for the performance or lack thereof of your
glider as you can see in real-time how you are doing towards a fixed point.

I do find that the GPS enables me to think farther ahead. If I'm 2000 above
a conservative glide to an airport, I'm not spending as much time looking at
closer alternatives. This is probably more of a high-performance glider
issue than a 1-26 issue, but freeing processor cycles for more important
activities is a good thing. If you think you can reach Airport X, and you
have 5 landable fields in between you and Airport X, you'll be more
comfortably focusing on the clouds or looking for birds or other indicators
of lift. You get to focus on the soaring more as you've got an easily
monitored data point to gauge your progress.

Sounds like you are doing it right though. Head out of the cockpit, field
to field. Fun stuff. Don't be afraid to augment that judgement with tools
that we have available.






On Wednesday, September 11, 2013 7:22:16 AM UTC-7, flgliderpilot wrote:
> I am fairly green had my PGL for about 3 years now.
>
>
>
> Been venturing into cross country, have done my first flight out to
> another airport, and last weekend, an out to that airport and return,
> about 30 miles round trip (in a 1-26, no ridges, it's all flat Florida).
> No it's not very far, but at least I am not just circling the airport for
> hours, and my enjoyment of soaring has been taken to a new level.
>
>
>
> However, I was told recently by an older experienced pilot that using a
> GPS is "not the correct way to do it". Instead I should be thinking "can
> I get there... now can I get there... can I get there...". I understand
> this ideology, but I am pretty sure nearly everyone is using GPS these
> days.
>
>
>
> So, does this mean I should not use modern navigation technology? I know
> how to plot a cross country flight on paper of course, and required
> altitudes to the next safe landing area.
>
>
>
> Does this mean I should I actually be drawing circles on charts, carrying
> a slide ruler to calculate arrival height at various distances, and
> mechanically doing everything my GPS is doing for me? This means I am not
> looking for traffic, or thermalling but instead flipping through charts
> and playing with a slide ruler or E6B, and my eyes are not outside the
> canopy.
>
>
>
> Anyway, please enlighten a new pilot, I am listening intently. if I
> should not be using a GPS at this point I'll go without.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Tom

[[email protected]]

On Friday, September 13, 2013 1:03:59 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Years ago I learned that, for a 40ish to 1 ship, you could hold out two
>
> fingers at arm's length such that the top of the fingers rests on the under
>
> side of the horizon. Anything visible below the second finger is reachable
>
> at your present altitude. Give it a try! I suppose 3 fingers would work
>
> just fine for a 1-26.
>
>
>
>
>
> "Morgan" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> About a month ago while flying a borrowed glider, my Streak batteries died
>
> and I had no GPS to tell me if I could glide back to the home base. I was
>
> mortified. Contemplated pulling the dive brakes and landing at the airport
>
> I was over, because 30+ miles with no glide computer and a 3k AGL day must
>
> be impossible. I am kidding. The reality is that when I have lost GPS,
>
> like this flight, I just fly a bit more conservatively because long
>
> distances are hard to judge, so I use closer points that are maybe 10-15:1
>
> away to gauge progress.
>
>
>
> As you have already discovered, you don't need a GPS or a Chart or a
>
> wiz-wheel. You need a sensible head and to pay attention to your
>
> surroundings and what the landmarks are doing as you fly towards them.
>
>
>
> I can't eyeball a 40:1 glide and know I'm going to make it to that obscured
>
> place on the horizon, but I can sure tell that the field 10:1 away is
>
> sliding under the nose. I came sailplanes from hang gliders, where you
>
> rarely even consider using a chart or relying on a glide computer for glide
>
> calculation so concern with the glide computer started out very low for me.
>
> I actually fly with two in my glider. An L-Nav and a Dell Streak. They are
>
> set up differently and rarely agree perfectly on glide. That's useful since
>
> the Streak is my pessimist and the L-Nav is my optimist
>
>
>
> Definitely get yourself a GPS. If nothing else, being able to review your
>
> logs in See You is an amazing tool for learning from your own decisions.
>
> You'll also gain an appreciation for the performance or lack thereof of your
>
> glider as you can see in real-time how you are doing towards a fixed point.

[[email protected]]

On Friday, September 13, 2013 2:03:59 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Years ago I learned that, for a 40ish to 1 ship, you could hold out two
>
> fingers at arm's length such that the top of the fingers rests on the under
>
> side of the horizon. Anything visible below the second finger is reachable
>
> at your present altitude. Give it a try! I suppose 3 fingers would work
>
> just fine for a 1-26.

Great tip, but it's probably 4 fingers for a 1-26, and another finger for a slight head wind.

I'll try it!

[Walt Connelly]

Because I have come across this issue a second time, being a Brooklyn
native, I must step in and educate the proper way to say "New Yorker." It
isn't New Yakker.. it's "New Yokaah!"

Cheers,
Daniel

At 23:58 11 September 2013, Walt Connelly wrote:

Tom, just remember if you land in a farmers field here is what you do.
As he approaches in his Pick em up truck, get down on your knees, close
your eyes, clasp your hands in front of you and say, "heavenly father, I
thank you for having this wonderful farmer's field here for me to land
in. I'm sorry if I scared his prized Hereford bull, I didn't mean to.
I'm sure my insurance company will pay for any damages, AMEN." Also
remember that if he is wearing a cowboy hat he is a Cracker, a baseball
cap means he is a red neck and no hat means he is from New York and
doesn't want to look like a Cracker or Red Neck. Call me if it's a
Cracker or Red Neck, I can deal with them for you....a New Yakker and
you are on your own.

Walt




--
Walt Connelly



I stand corrected.

Walt

[flgliderpilot[_2_]]

I have had to use my map a few times already when the GPS provided erroneous data, so I only trust it when it sounds like it's being honest with me.

So yes, I use a map also when I need to.

[[email protected]]

Yeah, what a maroon! BTW: I still have the CAD files.

On Thursday, September 12, 2013 12:06:47 PM UTC-4, Papa3 wrote:
> I taught XC Ground School for several years. We covered the basics of course selection, navigation, off-field landings, etc.
>
> The week after the whiz-wheel exercise, one of the students shows up at the next class all excited to share with us his creation (be forewarned - he's an engineer).

[son_of_flubber]

On Monday, September 16, 2013 2:30:01 PM UTC-4, flgliderpilot wrote:
> I have had to use my map a few times already when the GPS provided erroneous data, so I only trust it when it sounds like it's being honest with me.

What kind of erroneous data did your GPS provide? Maybe you were being jammed by the Ruskies.

[[email protected]]

On Monday, September 16, 2013 6:20:58 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Monday, September 16, 2013 2:30:01 PM UTC-4, flgliderpilot wrote:
>
> > I have had to use my map a few times already when the GPS provided erroneous data, so I only trust it when it sounds like it's being honest with me.
>
>
>
> What kind of erroneous data did your GPS provide? Maybe you were being jammed by the Ruskies.

Haha, well first for whatever reason it did not show the last airport in my list of turn points/landables even though it was programmed, so I had to pull out my map to find it.

Second time, it lost GPS signal and told me I would arrive 5000ft low to next turnpoint, which was impossible, I was only 6 miles away at 4000AGL. Eventually my GPS figured out where I already knew I was.

[son_of_flubber]

On Tuesday, September 17, 2013 10:20:07 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Monday, September 16, 2013 6:20:58 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
>
> > On Monday, September 16, 2013 2:30:01 PM UTC-4, flgliderpilot wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > I have had to use my map a few times already when the GPS provided erroneous data, so I only trust it when it sounds like it's being honest with me.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > What kind of erroneous data did your GPS provide? Maybe you were being jammed by the Ruskies.
>
>
>
> Haha, well first for whatever reason it did not show the last airport in my list of turn points/landables even though it was programmed, so I had to pull out my map to find it.
>
> Second time, it lost GPS signal and told me I would arrive 5000ft low to next turnpoint, which was impossible, I was only 6 miles away at 4000AGL. Eventually my GPS figured out where I already knew I was.

Okay. I misunderstood. By GPS, you actually mean "Flight Computer" (or PNA) told you bogus info.

The only true GPS error that I am aware is a complete loss of signal and therefore loss of position data. Do GPS units ever give significant position errors?

[flgliderpilot[_2_]]

> The only true GPS error that I am aware is a complete loss of signal and therefore loss of position data. Do GPS units ever give significant position errors?

Sorry, I should have said flight computer.

[2G]

On Wednesday, September 11, 2013 7:22:16 AM UTC-7, flgliderpilot wrote:
> I am fairly green had my PGL for about 3 years now.
>
>
>
> Been venturing into cross country, have done my first flight out to another airport, and last weekend, an out to that airport and return, about 30 miles round trip (in a 1-26, no ridges, it's all flat Florida). No it's not very far, but at least I am not just circling the airport for hours, and my enjoyment of soaring has been taken to a new level.
>
>
>
> However, I was told recently by an older experienced pilot that using a GPS is "not the correct way to do it". Instead I should be thinking "can I get there... now can I get there... can I get there...". I understand this ideology, but I am pretty sure nearly everyone is using GPS these days.
>
>
>
> So, does this mean I should not use modern navigation technology? I know how to plot a cross country flight on paper of course, and required altitudes to the next safe landing area.
>
>
>
> Does this mean I should I actually be drawing circles on charts, carrying a slide ruler to calculate arrival height at various distances, and mechanically doing everything my GPS is doing for me? This means I am not looking for traffic, or thermalling but instead flipping through charts and playing with a slide ruler or E6B, and my eyes are not outside the canopy.
>
>
>
> Anyway, please enlighten a new pilot, I am listening intently. if I should not be using a GPS at this point I'll go without.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Tom

I believe that any new XC glider pilot should be skilled in the use of maps and basic glide calculation tools. Who can argue with that?

The issue becomes blurred when the performance of the glider increases along with the distances flown. And when you get into extreme gliding (1000k+ tasks and/or mountains) you throw all of these rules out the window! I have flown in places where your landout choice is down to one and the terrain in between makes mountain goats shudder. One best have a very high degree of confidence in one's glide!

By all means get a GPS (unless you are a Luddite) and get familiar with it. All of the concerns about batteries are from people who are unprepared. I loved the comment about if you can't make the landing field use the next closer one. This guy has NEVER flown in Nevada! As Eric wrote, measuring distances across a map flip in a glider is challenging, at best. The best argument for a GPS & glide computer is that they reduce pilot workload, allowing you to concentrate at the task at hand.

[flgliderpilot[_2_]]

Thanks I am using LK8000 on a Mio Moov M400 PNA. I also carry a map, and a backup battery. For a battery, I carry this, which I purchased at home depot:

http://www.blessthisstuff.com/stuff/technology/portable-media/ampxt-by-mycharge/

I keep it in my shorts pocket, and run a USB cord to my PNA. It will run my PNA for a very very long time.

Eventually I'd like to have a connector installed so I can run my PNA from my 12V system, but for now the battery works well enough.

[[email protected]]

Hi Tom. We've never met although I have flown out of Seminole Lake in the past. Have an off topic question for you. I was wondering if you would compare the flying qualities of the 1-34 to your 1-26E for me? I got my first taste of flying the 1-26E at Chilhowee this summer and really enjoyed it. Aside from the superior glide performance of the 1-34, how do they compare otherwise? I've been thinking about going back to Seminole Lake to get checked out in their 1-34 and would appreciate your feedback. Thank you, Brian Lott.

[flgliderpilot[_2_]]

On Wednesday, September 25, 2013 9:59:59 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> Hi Tom. We've never met although I have flown out of Seminole Lake in the past. Have an off topic question for you. I was wondering if you would compare the flying qualities of the 1-34 to your 1-26E for me? I got my first taste of flying the 1-26E at Chilhowee this summer and really enjoyed it. Aside from the superior glide performance of the 1-34, how do they compare otherwise? I've been thinking about going back to Seminole Lake to get checked out in their 1-34 and would appreciate your feedback. Thank you, Brian Lott.

Hi Brian, I don't want to drag the thread off topic, so I am going email you directly.

Tom

[6PK]

On Wednesday, September 11, 2013 7:22:16 AM UTC-7, flgliderpilot wrote:
> I am fairly green had my PGL for about 3 years now.
>
>
>
> Been venturing into cross country, have done my first flight out to another airport, and last weekend, an out to that airport and return, about 30 miles round trip (in a 1-26, no ridges, it's all flat Florida). No it's not very far, but at least I am not just circling the airport for hours, and my enjoyment of soaring has been taken to a new level.
>
>
>
> However, I was told recently by an older experienced pilot that using a GPS is "not the correct way to do it". Instead I should be thinking "can I get there... now can I get there... can I get there...". I understand this ideology, but I am pretty sure nearly everyone is using GPS these days.
>
>
>
> So, does this mean I should not use modern navigation technology? I know how to plot a cross country flight on paper of course, and required altitudes to the next safe landing area.
>
>
>
> Does this mean I should I actually be drawing circles on charts, carrying a slide ruler to calculate arrival height at various distances, and mechanically doing everything my GPS is doing for me? This means I am not looking for traffic, or thermalling but instead flipping through charts and playing with a slide ruler or E6B, and my eyes are not outside the canopy.
>
>
>
> Anyway, please enlighten a new pilot, I am listening intently. if I should not be using a GPS at this point I'll go without.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
> Tom

Just my 5 c worth;
Always should consider to land on an airport-as a first choice (much preferred on the west coast- suitable landing spots are few and far in between and they change)
Have the basic good knowledge as to how many feet YOUR glider will loose per thousand feet.
Always carry current sectionals or at least world aeronautical charts .
Than get yourself a flight computer; SeeYou mobil, WinPilot, XCSoar etc they all basically do the same but at least if nothing else get a small pocket GPS.
Using these charts would be a last resort if all else fails ( but still have them) unless; you are near class B, C airpspaces and wish to navigate over, under or around them than utilizing a Terminal Area chart is a MUST flight computer or not!
Again it is a myth that looking or glancing at a PDA or PNA is more distracting than charts, it is by far the other way around.
Beside a PNA I downloaded XCSoar(free) onto my Android phone and will use it as a back up if need be far sooner than resorting to a chart(except a TCA).
In the many years of straight out cross country flying I can count on one hand how many times I landed on other than an airport.
However if you were to fly out here in the west at the least I would strongly encourage anyone to set foot and evaluate the landings sites first before considering landing on them.
6PK

[6PK]

On Sunday, October 13, 2013 7:01:43 PM UTC-7, 6PK wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 11, 2013 7:22:16 AM UTC-7, flgliderpilot wrote:
>
> > I am fairly green had my PGL for about 3 years now.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Been venturing into cross country, have done my first flight out to another airport, and last weekend, an out to that airport and return, about 30 miles round trip (in a 1-26, no ridges, it's all flat Florida). No it's not very far, but at least I am not just circling the airport for hours, and my enjoyment of soaring has been taken to a new level.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > However, I was told recently by an older experienced pilot that using a GPS is "not the correct way to do it". Instead I should be thinking "can I get there... now can I get there... can I get there...". I understand this ideology, but I am pretty sure nearly everyone is using GPS these days.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > So, does this mean I should not use modern navigation technology? I know how to plot a cross country flight on paper of course, and required altitudes to the next safe landing area.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Does this mean I should I actually be drawing circles on charts, carrying a slide ruler to calculate arrival height at various distances, and mechanically doing everything my GPS is doing for me? This means I am not looking for traffic, or thermalling but instead flipping through charts and playing with a slide ruler or E6B, and my eyes are not outside the canopy.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Anyway, please enlighten a new pilot, I am listening intently. if I should not be using a GPS at this point I'll go without.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Thanks
>
> >
>
> > Tom
>
>
>
> Just my 5 c worth;
>
> Always should consider to land on an airport-as a first choice (much preferred on the west coast- suitable landing spots are few and far in between and they change)
>
> Have the basic good knowledge as to how many feet YOUR glider will loose per thousand feet.
>
> Always carry current sectionals or at least world aeronautical charts .
>
> Than get yourself a flight computer; SeeYou mobil, WinPilot, XCSoar etc they all basically do the same but at least if nothing else get a small pocket GPS.
>
> Using these charts would be a last resort if all else fails ( but still have them) unless; you are near class B, C airpspaces and wish to navigate over, under or around them than utilizing a Terminal Area chart is a MUST flight computer or not!
>
> Again it is a myth that looking or glancing at a PDA or PNA is more distracting than charts, it is by far the other way around.
>
> Beside a PNA I downloaded XCSoar(free) onto my Android phone and will use it as a back up if need be far sooner than resorting to a chart(except a TCA).
>
> In the many years of straight out cross country flying I can count on one hand how many times I landed on other than an airport.
>
> However if you were to fly out here in the west at the least I would strongly encourage anyone to set foot and evaluate the landings sites first before considering landing on them.
>
> 6PK

Sorry about the typo; should have read:
"Have the basic good knowledge as to how many feet YOUR glider will loose per mile."

[Del Copeland]

In my opinion you should learn to navigate by map and compass
alone, in case the fancy gizmos or batteries fail. I do quite a lot
of cross-countries in the UK in a vintage glider that has no
navigational aids other than a compass, so I have to use
traditional methods. It's actually quite good practice for when I
fly fancier ships.

Derek Copeland

At 14:22 11 September 2013, flgliderpilot wrote:
>I am fairly green had my PGL for about 3 years now.
>
>Been venturing into cross country, have done my first flight out
to
>another=
> airport, and last weekend, an out to that airport and return,
about 30
>mil=
>es round trip (in a 1-26, no ridges, it's all flat Florida). No it's
not
>v=
>ery far, but at least I am not just circling the airport for hours,
and my
>=
>enjoyment of soaring has been taken to a new level. =20
>
>However, I was told recently by an older experienced pilot that
using a
>GPS=
> is "not the correct way to do it". Instead I should be thinking
"can I
>ge=
>t there... now can I get there... can I get there...". I
understand this
>i=
>deology, but I am pretty sure nearly everyone is using GPS
these days.
>
>So, does this mean I should not use modern navigation
technology? I know
>ho=
>w to plot a cross country flight on paper of course, and
required
>altitudes=
> to the next safe landing area.
>
>Does this mean I should I actually be drawing circles on
charts, carrying
>a=
> slide ruler to calculate arrival height at various distances, and
>mechanic=
>ally doing everything my GPS is doing for me? This means I
am not looking
>f=
>or traffic, or thermalling but instead flipping through charts and
playing
>=
>with a slide ruler or E6B, and my eyes are not outside the
canopy.=20
>
>Anyway, please enlighten a new pilot, I am listening intently. if
I
>should=
> not be using a GPS at this point I'll go without.
>
>Thanks
>Tom
>
>
>

[SF]

Buy the best tools that you can afford for the job at hand, learn to use them, and take care of them. Then develop you own rules. some of mine:
1. Never follow anyone with an engine.
2. Land at an airport, especially when flying over un-landable terrain.
3. If you really want to get better go fly contests.
4. When the CD sends you someplace you don't want to go, don't go. This is supposed to be fun.
5. There is always going to be somebody out there better than you, don't let that bother you, everyone has to start at the bottom.
6. I have never flown without a GPS, or two. I'm directionally challenged, so if they quit working I'm going to land.

[Nigel Pocock[_2_]]

If you can find someone with a high performance 2 seater and fly with
someone experienced.
I was lucky enough to fly in a duo discus with the national team coach and
on another occasion in a nimbus 3dt with a british team member. I learned
more on those flights that in the previous season flying on my own.

[Nigel Pocock[_2_]]

If you can find someone with a high performance 2 seater and fly with
someone experienced.
I was lucky enough to fly in a duo discus with the national team coach and
on another occasion in a nimbus 3dt with a british team member. I learned
more on those flights that in the previous season flying on my own.

[flgliderpilot[_2_]]

Thanks guys, I've been flying every weekend since the thread started and every flight has been a cross country flight as I have been working on a 65 mile silver distance triangle. I mostly navigate by chart and by being familiar with the area before flying. I use the nav computer to give me more accurate arrival altitudes to turn points and nearby airports. It did also prove helpful once when I got lost and did not recognize my position on the chart.

Most of the time it's been no problem to look at the map and know roughly where I am, and thumb the map to determine roughly how high I will arrive, but having the nav computer makes this much more efficient and keeps my eyes outside the cockpit. I had a powered aircraft fly directly towards me while in a thermal on my last cross country flight. Fortunately I saw him coming and exited the thermal only to watch the plane fly right through where I was circling without the slightest sign of awareness of my existence. Glad I wasn't busy looking at my chart and playing with a slide ruler when this happened.

I am not part of a club and where I fly is a commercial operation. If I land out, there are no club members waiting to come get me, and the tow plane will not tow me out of a field, only an airstrip. A field landout is going to be a big inconvenience for more than just myself. This doesn't mean I am not prepared to land out.. or that there aren't friendly fellow pilots who will come get me if they happen to be at the airport at that time, but it may take all day.

Of course I still keep other landing options available at all times in addition to a nearby air strip, but using modern tools really simplifies things..

Tom

[Dan Marotta]

Tom,

It sounds to me like you're doing everything right.

Keep spreading your wings!


"flgliderpilot" > wrote in message
...
Thanks guys, I've been flying every weekend since the thread started and
every flight has been a cross country flight as I have been working on a 65
mile silver distance triangle. I mostly navigate by chart and by being
familiar with the area before flying. I use the nav computer to give me more
accurate arrival altitudes to turn points and nearby airports. It did also
prove helpful once when I got lost and did not recognize my position on the
chart.

Most of the time it's been no problem to look at the map and know roughly
where I am, and thumb the map to determine roughly how high I will arrive,
but having the nav computer makes this much more efficient and keeps my eyes
outside the cockpit. I had a powered aircraft fly directly towards me while
in a thermal on my last cross country flight. Fortunately I saw him coming
and exited the thermal only to watch the plane fly right through where I was
circling without the slightest sign of awareness of my existence. Glad I
wasn't busy looking at my chart and playing with a slide ruler when this
happened.

I am not part of a club and where I fly is a commercial operation. If I
land out, there are no club members waiting to come get me, and the tow
plane will not tow me out of a field, only an airstrip. A field landout is
going to be a big inconvenience for more than just myself. This doesn't
mean I am not prepared to land out.. or that there aren't friendly fellow
pilots who will come get me if they happen to be at the airport at that
time, but it may take all day.

Of course I still keep other landing options available at all times in
addition to a nearby air strip, but using modern tools really simplifies
things.

Tom