Buying an Aeronca Champ

[BJen]

I'm planning to buy a 1946 7AC Champ with 2 partners. All
of us individually own one or more other aircraft. Anyone
have any recommendations for:

1) Things to inspect look closely at. AD's I need to be
aware of, etc.

2) A good partnership agreement I can look at

3) What insurance will cost.

4) What are they selling for?

Thanks.

[Paul Anton]

Do A Google search for Aeronca. There is an excellent support group with a
mailing list.



"BJen" > wrote in message
...
> I'm planning to buy a 1946 7AC Champ with 2 partners. All
> of us individually own one or more other aircraft. Anyone
> have any recommendations for:
>
> 1) Things to inspect look closely at. AD's I need to be
> aware of, etc.
>
> 2) A good partnership agreement I can look at
>
> 3) What insurance will cost.
>
> 4) What are they selling for?
>
> Thanks.

[Dan Thomas]

Do a Google groups search in this group and the rec.aviation.owning
group; there was an identical question with lots of answers just a
couple of weeks ago.
Big thing with Champs is the recent wooden spar AD. Can make an
airplane nearly worthless if there are cracks in those spars, and
those cracks are really hard to see. Doing the inspection PROPERLY is
neither easy nor cheap.

Dan

"Paul Anton" > wrote in message >...
> Do A Google search for Aeronca. There is an excellent support group with a
> mailing list.
>
>
>
> "BJen" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I'm planning to buy a 1946 7AC Champ with 2 partners. All
> > of us individually own one or more other aircraft. Anyone
> > have any recommendations for:
> >
> > 1) Things to inspect look closely at. AD's I need to be
> > aware of, etc.
> >
> > 2) A good partnership agreement I can look at
> >
> > 3) What insurance will cost.
> >
> > 4) What are they selling for?
> >
> > Thanks.

[EDR]

In article >, Dan Thomas
> wrote:

> Big thing with Champs is the recent wooden spar AD. Can make an
> airplane nearly worthless if there are cracks in those spars, and
> those cracks are really hard to see. Doing the inspection PROPERLY is
> neither easy nor cheap.

NO! NO! NO! NO! It doesn't make the airplane worthless (unless you can
convince the present owner ;-)) )
The wings can be rebuilt in a week, if you have the free time.
You just purchase new spars and fabric and build a new wing.

[john price]

> I'm planning to buy a 1946 7AC Champ with 2 partners. All
> of us individually own one or more other aircraft. Anyone
> have any recommendations for:
>
> 1) Things to inspect look closely at. AD's I need to be
> aware of, etc.

The biggest deal is the wing spar AD... For a 65 HP Champ,
it's a one-time inspection which should have already been
done... Doesn't hurt to take a good look at the spars though...
Pay particular attention to the wing root and strut attach point
areas...

As is the case with any rag & tube plane, you want to look
for corrosion in the fuselage frame... Unfortunately the most
likely place to find such problems is in the tail area where
it is hardest to look... Feel the lower longerons through the
fabric... Any bumpy spots require a closer look...



>
> 2) A good partnership agreement I can look at
>
> 3) What insurance will cost.

That's going to depend a lot on how much time you and your
partners have and how much tailwheel time you all have... When
I first got my L3, I had 2,500+ Total Time, but only 30 hours of
tailwheel time... Insurance the first year was $1,500... Now it's
about $900


> 4) What are they selling for?

Anywhere from $20K to $30K for one in good shape... You can
find ones that will need recovering in a short time for less..

John Price
CFII/AGI/IGI
http://home.att.net/~jm.price

[G.R. Patterson III]

Dan Thomas wrote:
>
> Can make an
> airplane nearly worthless if there are cracks in those spars, ....

Hell, the data plate alone is worth about 5 grand. If the spars are bad, it just
needs new wings.

George Patterson
This marriage is off to a shaky start. The groom just asked the band to
play "Your cheatin' heart", and the bride just requested "Don't come home
a'drinkin' with lovin' on your mind".

[Dave Stadt]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Dan Thomas wrote:
> >
> > Can make an
> > airplane nearly worthless if there are cracks in those spars, ....
>
> Hell, the data plate alone is worth about 5 grand. If the spars are bad,
it just
> needs new wings.

American Champion will retrofit all metal wings.

> George Patterson
> This marriage is off to a shaky start. The groom just asked the band
to
> play "Your cheatin' heart", and the bride just requested "Don't come
home
> a'drinkin' with lovin' on your mind".

[Cub Driver]

>1) Things to inspect look closely at. AD's I need to be
>aware of, etc.

There is one. Hasn't it been discussed here recently under another
Champ thread?

>3) What insurance will cost.

More than last year :)

>4) What are they selling for?

I recently had to kick up the hull insurance on my renter's policy
from $25K to $40K. The airport rents a pair of weary old 172s and two
nice J-3/L-4 Cubs. In the five years I've had my license, Cubs have
gone from the low 20s to the high 30s. I assume a Champ would be less,
but so much depends on condition. I've read so much stuff about the
horrors entailed in buying a 60-year-old plane that I would feel safe
only if a) I was buying a project for rebuild or b) I was buying it
new. (You can buy a Champ new, I believe.)




all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

[Dan Thomas]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message >...
> Dan Thomas wrote:
> >
> > Can make an
> > airplane nearly worthless if there are cracks in those spars, ....
>
> Hell, the data plate alone is worth about 5 grand. If the spars are bad, it just
> needs new wings.
>
> George Patterson
> This marriage is off to a shaky start. The groom just asked the band to
> play "Your cheatin' heart", and the bride just requested "Don't come home
> a'drinkin' with lovin' on your mind".


Folks recently have been having trouble getting spar-grade
spruce at anything near decent prices, and the new metal wings are
something like $15K. There have been some good deals on older Champs
here in Canada, when the spars have been found cracked. And the guys
who are doing the inspection the best way possible, by taking off the
fabric and having a close look under the ribs and strut and spar butt
fittings and next to the plywood doublers, are reporting hairline and
compression cracks all over the place. Some have found BIG cracks that
have been present since somebody groundlooped the airplane years
before or the wind blew it over on its back, and even these cracks
went unnoticed until the fabric came off. So much for decent
annuals...
A Taylorcraft crashed near here a few years ago when the aft spar
in one wing failed. There was an old crack extending diagonally inward
and down through the strut attach point that appeared to have occurred
when the airplane was blown over in a windstorm several years before,
and nobody went looking for such damage. I once owned an Auster
(British Taylorcraft, on steroids) that had an identical crack through
an aft spar that had been put there, probably, when the wind took it
away from its tiedowns and banged it into a hangar, before I owned it.
Nobody saw that one, either, until I took the fabric off the wings to
recover them. Five of the eight drag wires were busted, too, so the
fabric was all that was holding the wing square.
And I had been flying that airplane. That's why I get paranoid
about wooden spars and the difficulty of inspecting them properly.

Dan

[Robert M. Gary]

Cub Driver > wrote in message >...

>
> I recently had to kick up the hull insurance on my renter's policy
> from $25K to $40K. The airport rents a pair of weary old 172s and two
> nice J-3/L-4 Cubs. In the five years I've had my license, Cubs have
> gone from the low 20s to the high 30s. I assume a Champ would be less,
> but so much depends on condition. I've read so much stuff about the
> horrors entailed in buying a 60-year-old plane that I would feel safe
> only if a) I was buying a project for rebuild or b) I was buying it
> new. (You can buy a Champ new, I believe.)

It still seems strange to me that they have you buy the full hull
value insurance since the owner's insurance also covers the hull. It
would take some serious subrogation to come after you for the full
hull value. The owner's hull insurance covers a lot of things that
your renters policy does not.

[Cub Driver]

>It still seems strange to me that they have you buy the full hull
>value insurance since the owner's insurance also covers the hull. It
>would take some serious subrogation to come after you for the full
>hull value. The owner's hull insurance covers a lot of things that
>your renters policy does not.

I know. In a perfect world, I'd risk my liability to the airport
rather than carry full insurance on the airplane. But it's the price
of flying the Cub. I accept it the way I accept the fact that a 02/20
runway on the Atlantic shore is always going to have a crosswind.

Besides, I'm not entirely sure that anyone writes liability insurance
without hull insurance, and I'm not willing to go without the former.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org