Help needed at Mifflin.

[KS]

Two companies are planning the installation of wind turbines on top of Jacks Mt near the Mifflin County Airport where contests have been held for 23 years. Ridge running on Jacks is vital to the success of soaring at Mifflin and these devices would eliminate an essential part of the soaring activity..
See http://mifflin.ridgesewing.com/Jacks.htm for a further link to information which will show a picture of what the wind farm would look like and a request for letters/e-mails to help thwart this project.

Thanks for your help.

Karl Striedieck

PS Send this on to those who might not follow ras but could help.

[son_of_flubber]

Many pilots who fly ridges at many locations are likely to face this dilemma in the future. I fly from an airport that is located at the base of a ridge and the nearby ski resort would be a ready and eager customer for the "locally generated power".

Are there any projects (perhaps in Germany?) where power generation and soaring interests have devised a way to share the available ridge resources? Are there isolated ridges that are less critical to soaring that we might give over to power generation? Other compromises or design solutions?

I agree that losing the pristine quality of ridge lines is a tragedy, but trying to stop ALL ridge top development seems a losing proposition in the long run. This seems especially true in places like Pennsylvania that have a deep historical track record of trading off environmental degradation for short-term gains from natural gas fracking, strip mining, coke burning and other industrial development. My cousins are coal miners in PA and I know how they think.

[Dan Marotta]

I don't understand the problem. Don't you fly upwind of the ridge and
approximately at or below the crest? Of course, if you fly above the crest,
I could see the conflict.

If you fly in front of the ridge, is there concern that the power companies
will lobby the FAA to prevent you from flying "too close"ly?


"KS" > wrote in message
...


Two companies are planning the installation of wind turbines on top of Jacks
Mt near the Mifflin County Airport where contests have been held for 23
years. Ridge running on Jacks is vital to the success of soaring at Mifflin
and these devices would eliminate an essential part of the soaring activity.
See http://mifflin.ridgesewing.com/Jacks.htm for a further link to
information which will show a picture of what the wind farm would look like
and a request for letters/e-mails to help thwart this project.

Thanks for your help.

Karl Striedieck

PS Send this on to those who might not follow ras but could help.

[Sean F (F2)]

Damn hippies! ;-) Ill write a letter for you Karl! Count on it.

Sean

On Sunday, October 6, 2013 11:01:33 AM UTC-4, KS wrote:
> Two companies are planning the installation of wind turbines on top of Jacks Mt near the Mifflin County Airport where contests have been held for 23 years. Ridge running on Jacks is vital to the success of soaring at Mifflin and these devices would eliminate an essential part of the soaring activity.
>
> See http://mifflin.ridgesewing.com/Jacks.htm for a further link to information which will show a picture of what the wind farm would look like and a request for letters/e-mails to help thwart this project.
>
>
>
> Thanks for your help.
>
>
>
> Karl Striedieck
>
>
>
> PS Send this on to those who might not follow ras but could help.

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, October 6, 2013 1:53:15 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> I don't understand the problem. Don't you fly upwind of the ridge and approximately at or below the crest? Of course, if you fly above the crest, I could see the conflict. If you fly in front of the ridge, is there concern that the power companies will lobby the FAA to prevent you from flying "too close"ly?


We fly at ridge top height and about a wing span out on the good days. We rarely fly below the crest intentionally. It is faster at ridge top.On softer days we may be almost on top of the ridge and a couple hundred feet up.
The windmills are shown almost exactly where we fly.
UH

[Craig R.]

I wish you luck in battling this issue. Locally, just east of the Columbia River gorge (one of the most beautiful scenic areas on the planet) next to the Columbia River, there is a windmill farm of hundreds of towers. Locating them at that spot spoils an incredibly beautiful scenic area. Yet the green political faction got them through because it is a "clean" energy source.. If you saw the visual pollution and listen to the disgusting drone of the windmills, I don't know how anyone could have allowed it to happen. Public opinion and government dealing won over common sense.

[Roy Clark, \B6\]

Best of luck.
BTW, every time you see a turbine/windmill stationary, it is SUCKING POWER from the grid to maintain internal power needs.

[GM]

On Monday, October 7, 2013 3:04:37 AM UTC+2, Roy Clark, "B6" wrote:
> Best of luck.
>
> BTW, every time you see a turbine/windmill stationary, it is SUCKING POWER from the grid to maintain internal power needs.

I am shocked to hear that! That is incredible! Do you know how much these turbines suck from the grid while standing still??

[Sean F (F2)]

Probably 30 amps... Enough to keep the itself aligned it into the wind and to adjust the blades (X 100's of turbines in each farm). The motors required to manage those tasks are not small! If you ever stand near one while they are stopped and trying to re-"spin" you learn that they are working fairly hard, constantly adjusting the blade heading and blade angle. Also, the turbine only engages and produce net power once a certain amount of blade speed (power) is achieved. This speed is higher than most realize. So all the alignment and blade changes at low speed are also from power being sucked off the grid. At low speed the blade is just free wheeling with no power being produced.

We have a huge "windfarm" to the NE of Ionia near Alma Michigan. We fly over it often. Probably 150 - 200 generators. Personally, I refer to this region as the field of death" or the "bird scrambler farm"! The ground around them is literally littered with dead birds. I would fear greatly for the soaring birds in the Mifflin habitat. Were is the EPA on this one? Hmmm? Sure, its a big problem when you endanger the spotted owl (in any capitalist endeavor)...but when hundreds of hawks and other birds are ensured of a brutal inhumane death every month per wind turbine blade strikes its overlooked because its a liberal project.

Enjoy the death of birds at the hand of green energy liberals below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwVz5hdAMGU

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/bird-slicing-eco-crucifixes/page/2

http://now.msn.com/bird-hits-wind-turbine-rare-white-throated-needletail-killed-instantly

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2350267/Rare-bird-white-throated-needletail-killed-wind-turbine-crowd-twitchers.html

https://www.google.com/search?q=bird+hit+by+wind+turbine&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=L8NSUtybG86AygHS14HYDg&ved=0CF4QsAQ&biw=1024&bih=629&dpr=2

The horror of liberals and their wind turbines are very real for soaring birds. Liberals, where are you on this one? Hmmmm? Tens of thousands on INNOCENT BIRDS are dying each and every day! Their blood is on your hands!

[Sean F (F2)]

Probably 30 amps... Enough to keep itself aligned it into the wind and to adjust the blades (X 100's of turbines in each farm). The motors required to manage those tasks are not small! If you ever stand near one while they are stopped and trying to re-"spin" you learn that they are working fairly hard, constantly adjusting the blade heading and blade angle. Also, the turbine only engages and produce net power once a certain amount of blade speed (power) is achieved. This speed is higher than most realize. So all the alignment and blade changes at low speed are also from power being sucked off the grid. At low speed the blade is just free wheeling with no power being produced.

We have a huge "windfarm" to the NE of Ionia near Alma Michigan. We fly over it often. Probably 150 - 200 generators. Personally, I refer to this region as the field of death" or the "bird scrambler farm"! The ground around them is literally littered with dead birds. I would fear greatly for the soaring birds in the Mifflin habitat. Were is the EPA on this one? Hmmm? Sure, its a big problem when you endanger the spotted owl (in any capitalist endeavor)...but when hundreds of hawks and other birds are ensured of a brutal inhumane death every month per wind turbine blade strikes its overlooked because its a liberal project.

Enjoy the death of birds at the hand of green energy liberals below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwVz5hdAMGU

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/bird-slicing-eco-crucifixes/page/2

http://now.msn.com/bird-hits-wind-turbine-rare-white-throated-needletail-killed-instantly

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2350267/Rare-bird-white-throated-needletail-killed-wind-turbine-crowd-twitchers.html

https://www.google.com/search?q=bird+hit+by+wind+turbine&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=L8NSUtybG86AygHS14HYDg&ved=0CF4QsAQ&biw=1024&bih=629&dpr=2

The horror of liberals and their wind turbines are very real for soaring birds. Liberals, where are you on this one? Hmmmm? Tens of thousands on INNOCENT BIRDS are dying each and every day! Their blood is on your hands!

[Sean F (F2)]

Probably 30 amps... Enough to keep itself aligned into the wind and to adjust the blade pitch (X 100's of turbines in each farm). The motors required to manage those tasks are not small! Nor is the power required to run those motors and manage the electronics required to operate the systems. If you ever stand near one while they are stopped and trying to re-"spin" you learn that they are working fairly hard, constantly adjusting the blade heading and blade angle. Even while running in a strong wind, the turbine makes many corrections each minute in blade pitch and probably in turbine drag.. All requiring significant power.

Also, the turbine only engages and produce net power once a certain amount of blade speed (net power) is achieved. This speed is higher than most realize. So, even all the alignment and blade changes at low speed are also from power being sucked off the grid. In other words, at low speed the blade is just free wheeling with no power being produced.

We have a huge "windfarm" to the NE of Ionia near Alma Michigan. We fly over it often. Probably 150 - 200 generators. Personally, I refer to this region as the field of death" or the "bird scrambler farm"! The ground around them is literally littered with dead birds. I would fear greatly for the soaring birds in the Mifflin habitat. Were is the EPA on this one? Hmmm? Sure, its a big problem when you endanger the spotted owl (in any capitalist endeavor)...but when hundreds of hawks and other birds are ensured of a brutal inhumane death every month per wind turbine blade strikes its overlooked because its a liberal project.

Enjoy the death of birds at the hand of green energy liberals below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwVz5hdAMGU

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/bird-slicing-eco-crucifixes/page/2

http://now.msn.com/bird-hits-wind-turbine-rare-white-throated-needletail-killed-instantly

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2350267/Rare-bird-white-throated-needletail-killed-wind-turbine-crowd-twitchers.html

https://www.google.com/search?q=bird+hit+by+wind+turbine&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=L8NSUtybG86AygHS14HYDg&ved=0CF4QsAQ&biw=1024&bih=629&dpr=2

The horror of liberals and their wind turbines are very real for soaring birds. Liberals, where are you on this one? Hmmmm? Tens of thousands on INNOCENT BIRDS are dying each and every day! Their blood is on your hands!

[Dan Marotta]

Now I understand. Thanks.


> wrote in message
...
On Sunday, October 6, 2013 1:53:15 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> I don't understand the problem. Don't you fly upwind of the ridge and
> approximately at or below the crest? Of course, if you fly above the
> crest, I could see the conflict. If you fly in front of the ridge, is
> there concern that the power companies will lobby the FAA to prevent you
> from flying "too close"ly?


We fly at ridge top height and about a wing span out on the good days. We
rarely fly below the crest intentionally. It is faster at ridge top.On
softer days we may be almost on top of the ridge and a couple hundred feet
up.
The windmills are shown almost exactly where we fly.
UH

[Brad[_2_]]

On Monday, October 7, 2013 7:34:57 AM UTC-7, Sean F (F2) wrote:
> Probably 30 amps... Enough to keep itself aligned into the wind and to adjust the blade pitch (X 100's of turbines in each farm). The motors required to manage those tasks are not small! Nor is the power required to run those motors and manage the electronics required to operate the systems. If you ever stand near one while they are stopped and trying to re-"spin" you learn that they are working fairly hard, constantly adjusting the blade heading and blade angle. Even while running in a strong wind, the turbine makes many corrections each minute in blade pitch and probably in turbine drag. All requiring significant power.
>
>
>
> Also, the turbine only engages and produce net power once a certain amount of blade speed (net power) is achieved. This speed is higher than most realize. So, even all the alignment and blade changes at low speed are also from power being sucked off the grid. In other words, at low speed the blade is just free wheeling with no power being produced.
>
>
>
> We have a huge "windfarm" to the NE of Ionia near Alma Michigan. We fly over it often. Probably 150 - 200 generators. Personally, I refer to this region as the field of death" or the "bird scrambler farm"! The ground around them is literally littered with dead birds. I would fear greatly for the soaring birds in the Mifflin habitat. Were is the EPA on this one? Hmmm? Sure, its a big problem when you endanger the spotted owl (in any capitalist endeavor)...but when hundreds of hawks and other birds are ensured of a brutal inhumane death every month per wind turbine blade strikes its overlooked because its a liberal project.
>
>
>
> Enjoy the death of birds at the hand of green energy liberals below:
>
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwVz5hdAMGU
>
>
>
> http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/bird-slicing-eco-crucifixes/page/2
>
>
>
> http://now.msn.com/bird-hits-wind-turbine-rare-white-throated-needletail-killed-instantly
>
>
>
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2350267/Rare-bird-white-throated-needletail-killed-wind-turbine-crowd-twitchers.html
>
>
>
> https://www.google.com/search?q=bird+hit+by+wind+turbine&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=L8NSUtybG86AygHS14HYDg&ved=0CF4QsAQ&biw=1024&bih=629&dpr=2
>
>
>
> The horror of liberals and their wind turbines are very real for soaring birds. Liberals, where are you on this one? Hmmmm? Tens of thousands on INNOCENT BIRDS are dying each and every day! Their blood is on your hands!

Sean,

the real horror is the young birds: the "children". doesn't anyone care about the children?

Brad

[Soartech]

> The horror of liberals and their wind turbines are very real for soaring >birds. Liberals, where are you on this one?

You are kidding right? I suppose conservatives don't own cars or use electricity.

I am concerned about the soaring birds as they don't know the danger. Perhaps a huge cage should be required around them. Sailplanes will just have to slow down a bit in that area and move out in front. Easy and no big deal with our performance. Everyone will have to do the same in a race so it is just another obstacle on the course. I would not let a windmill stop me from soaring.

[Sean F (F2)]

LOL! In all seriousness, the hypocrisy is stunning.

Unfortunately, I fear that the soaring community will be brushed aside fairly easily in this case. Mifflin is probably the first of many ridge soaring area's that will be destroyed in favor of "green energy."

I am all for smart energy policy but right now they would happily build a windfarm by displacing spotted owls (so coveted by the EPA: http://www.scu.edu/ethics/publications/iie/v4n1/) and the last bald eagle on earth with a broken wing! A few gliders (rich old capitalist pigs) being displaced from soaring in this area would probably be considered additional upside for the planners of this project!

Sean

On Monday, October 7, 2013 12:52:41 PM UTC-4, Brad wrote:
> On Monday, October 7, 2013 7:34:57 AM UTC-7, Sean F (F2) wrote:
>
> > Probably 30 amps... Enough to keep itself aligned into the wind and to adjust the blade pitch (X 100's of turbines in each farm). The motors required to manage those tasks are not small! Nor is the power required to run those motors and manage the electronics required to operate the systems. If you ever stand near one while they are stopped and trying to re-"spin" you learn that they are working fairly hard, constantly adjusting the blade heading and blade angle. Even while running in a strong wind, the turbine makes many corrections each minute in blade pitch and probably in turbine drag. All requiring significant power.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Also, the turbine only engages and produce net power once a certain amount of blade speed (net power) is achieved. This speed is higher than most realize. So, even all the alignment and blade changes at low speed are also from power being sucked off the grid. In other words, at low speed the blade is just free wheeling with no power being produced.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > We have a huge "windfarm" to the NE of Ionia near Alma Michigan. We fly over it often. Probably 150 - 200 generators. Personally, I refer to this region as the field of death" or the "bird scrambler farm"! The ground around them is literally littered with dead birds. I would fear greatly for the soaring birds in the Mifflin habitat. Were is the EPA on this one? Hmmm? Sure, its a big problem when you endanger the spotted owl (in any capitalist endeavor)...but when hundreds of hawks and other birds are ensured of a brutal inhumane death every month per wind turbine blade strikes its overlooked because its a liberal project.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Enjoy the death of birds at the hand of green energy liberals below:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwVz5hdAMGU
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/bird-slicing-eco-crucifixes/page/2
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > http://now.msn.com/bird-hits-wind-turbine-rare-white-throated-needletail-killed-instantly
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2350267/Rare-bird-white-throated-needletail-killed-wind-turbine-crowd-twitchers.html
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > https://www.google.com/search?q=bird+hit+by+wind+turbine&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=L8NSUtybG86AygHS14HYDg&ved=0CF4QsAQ&biw=1024&bih=629&dpr=2
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > The horror of liberals and their wind turbines are very real for soaring birds. Liberals, where are you on this one? Hmmmm? Tens of thousands on INNOCENT BIRDS are dying each and every day! Their blood is on your hands!
>
>
>
> Sean,
>
>
>
> the real horror is the young birds: the "children". doesn't anyone care about the children?
>
>
>
> Brad

[son_of_flubber]

Could we make an effort to keep Partisan Bickering off of RAS?

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, October 6, 2013 9:01:33 AM UTC-6, KS wrote:
> Two companies are planning the installation of wind turbines on top of Jacks Mt near the Mifflin County Airport where contests have been held for 23 years. Ridge running on Jacks is vital to the success of soaring at Mifflin and these devices would eliminate an essential part of the soaring activity. See http://mifflin.ridgesewing.com/Jacks.htm for a further link to information which will show a picture of what the wind farm would look like and a request for letters/e-mails to help thwart this project. Thanks for your help. Karl Striedieck PS Send this on to those who might not follow ras but could help.

I'm all for saving a great soaring site. As for bird mortality, please. Picture windows and automobiles cause orders of magnitude more mortality that wind farms. Perhaps you'd care to give those up too?

[37[_2_]]

I have been involved with wind turbine engineering for the last ten years. I believe we need wind generation, and other renewables, in the generation portfolio. However, Jack's Mountain and the attached ridge is a unique soaring treasure, and I fully support efforts to have this project, as well as others on critical soaring ridges, to be rejected. There are good places and bad places for wind turbines; this is a BAD place.

However, the soaring interests will have a greater chance for success if we don't flail irrelevant or poorly substantiated arguments. One of these distracting and irrelevant arguments is the fact that wind turbines "suck" power from the grid when the wind speed is below, or above, the operating range. The amount of energy consumed for standby auxiliary power is trivial; yaw motors do rotate the nacelle into the wind, and lube oil heaters keep the lube oil from turning solid in the winter. And, where do you think the power comes from to light the aviation warning lights? Should we eliminate those? Plus EVERY power plant sucks power from the grid when it is not generating, and many fossil-fueled plants operate much less frequently than wind plants, and consume far greater auxiliary power.

Bird kills from wind plants are a fact, but as previously posted, cars and building windows kill far more. However, the ridge lift that attracts us also attracts soaring birds, and I believe that focusing on the unique risks to birds of this location on Jack's Ridge will do us far more good than striking out on wind turbines everywhere.

We should focus on the unique soaring treasure that this mountain and the ridge provides, and the economic benefits of our time and expenditures in the region Let the locals fight the visual impact, sound, and other similar issues. Let the bird and bat people handle their own turf, they have much better info than we do, and PLEASE, don't throw out b.s. that is totally irrelevant that discredits the soaring community. Also, let's not get into the middle of the global warming fight...

[Soartech]

All good points in this last post.
I just read Karl's website and he states:
"A number of ridges populate the area between the Tunnels and Clark’s Ferry TPs. On days with northwest winds these ridge can be used for short runs and saves, but don’t offer sustained runs of any length. A good percentage of the Waggoners Gap to Tunnels section passes over Tuscarora State Forest with most of the valleys totally covered in forest-not the realm of a safety conscious pilot. "

Perhaps we should be united in asking that the location be moved to another ridge nearby that pilots do not use much. There are many, many ridges in this area. Karl should pick a likely area and we should all stand behind his choice in our letters.

[[email protected]]

I have also been in the wind generator biz. I can't add more or better responses than Soartech and 37. Please reread what they said and pretend it's from me.

Please keep the partisan politics off. Right or Left, it doesn't contribute to a solution.

As to the suggestion that we back and alternate ridge...I'm in. Excellent suggestion.


Terry

[son_of_flubber]

For comic relief... gif of an exploding wind turbine.
http://img.ifcdn.com/images/2e93603678d611bf72208d685cf0a69031abcaf9496989f5bf aa5c4fb74f5854_1.gif

[[email protected]]

On Monday, October 7, 2013 1:21:34 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> Could we make an effort to keep Partisan Bickering off of RAS?

You started on that path yourself yesterday.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

wrote, On 10/7/2013 10:52 AM:
> On Sunday, October 6, 2013 9:01:33 AM UTC-6, KS wrote:
>> Two companies are planning the installation of wind turbines on top
>> of Jacks Mt near the Mifflin County Airport where contests have
>> been held for 23 years. Ridge running on Jacks is vital to the
>> success of soaring at Mifflin and these devices would eliminate an
>> essential part of the soaring activity. See
>> http://mifflin.ridgesewing.com/Jacks.htm for a further link to
>> information which will show a picture of what the wind farm would
>> look like and a request for letters/e-mails to help thwart this
>> project. Thanks for your help. Karl Striedieck PS Send this on to
>> those who might not follow ras but could help.
>
> I'm all for saving a great soaring site. As for bird mortality,
> please. Picture windows and automobiles cause orders of magnitude
> more mortality that wind farms. Perhaps you'd care to give those up
> too?

There may be a better argument than that. My understanding is the bird
species killed by ridge sited wind turbines are quite different from
those killed by windows and cars - generally, species that are more
desirable and have smaller populations, so the effect of the kills is
more severe.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Sean F (F2) wrote, On 10/7/2013 7:34 AM:
> Tens of thousands on INNOCENT BIRDS are dying each and every day!

How about just the best link that provides evidence for this? I've been
to wind turbine sites and not seen any dead birds, so it sounds exaggerated.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

[GM]

On Monday, October 7, 2013 4:34:57 PM UTC+2, Sean F (F2) wrote:
> Probably 30 amps... Enough to keep itself aligned into the wind and to adjust the blade pitch (X 100's of turbines in each farm). The motors required to manage those tasks are not small! Nor is the power required to run those motors and manage the electronics required to operate the systems. If you ever stand near one while they are stopped and trying to re-"spin" you learn that they are working fairly hard, constantly adjusting the blade heading and blade angle. Even while running in a strong wind, the turbine makes many corrections each minute in blade pitch and probably in turbine drag. All requiring significant power. Also, the turbine only engages and produce net power once a certain amount of blade speed (net power) is achieved. This speed is higher than most realize. So, even all the alignment and blade changes at low speed are also from power being sucked off the grid. In other words, at low speed the blade is just free wheeling with no power being produced. We have a huge "windfarm" to the NE of Ionia near Alma Michigan. We fly over it often. Probably 150 - 200 generators. Personally, I refer to this region as the field of death" or the "bird scrambler farm"! The ground around them is literally littered with dead birds. I would fear greatly for the soaring birds in the Mifflin habitat. Were is the EPA on this one? Hmmm? Sure, its a big problem when you endanger the spotted owl (in any capitalist endeavor)...but when hundreds of hawks and other birds are ensured of a brutal inhumane death every month per wind turbine blade strikes its overlooked because its a liberal project. Enjoy the death of birds at the hand of green energy liberals below: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwVz5hdAMGU http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/bird-slicing-eco-crucifixes/page/2 http://now.msn.com/bird-hits-wind-turbine-rare-white-throated-needletail-killed-instantly http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2350267/Rare-bird-white-throated-needletail-killed-wind-turbine-crowd-twitchers.html https://www.google.com/search?q=bird+hit+by+wind+turbine&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=L8NSUtybG86AygHS14HYDg&ved=0CF4QsAQ&biw=1024&bih=629&dpr=2 The horror of liberals and their wind turbines are very real for soaring birds. Liberals, where are you on this one? Hmmmm? Tens of thousands on INNOCENT BIRDS are dying each and every day! Their blood is on your hands!

Sean,

thanks for your enlightening and education! Is all your wisdom based on true insight knowledge, i.e. you worked in the industry and have climbed countless turbines, etc. or did you just Google the issue and then re-post all the bit & pieces which support your point of view? Perhaps you stayed at a Holiday-Inn Express last night. ;-) Remember - you cannot believe everything on the internet - that's how WW-1 got started!
As an FYI - I work in designing and repairing wind turbines for a good number of years, so here we go:
>> Enough to keep itself aligned into the wind and to adjust the blade pitch <<
Correct. That way, the turbine can get back on-line at a moments notice, once the wind picks up to above cut-in speed.
>> The motors required to manage those tasks are not small <<
Wrong - these motors have a rating of a few kW and they are in operation a few seconds at a time. Your home A/C probably has a bigger motor.
>> Nor is the power required to run those motors and manage the electronics required to operate the systems <<
Wrong - a turned off turbine consumes only a few kW to keep the batteries charged, keep up the comm with the remote controll center, etc. That number goes up should there be a low or no-wind situation in the winter, when heaters kick in to keep the oil fluid and the controlls from collecting condensation.
>> If you ever stand near one while they are stopped and trying to re-"spin" you learn that they are working fairly hard, constantly adjusting the blade heading and blade angle. <<
Partly wrong - if a turbine senses that the wind is picking up and it may trend towards the cut-in speed, it adjusts the balde pitch to the 'run-up' position and keeps them there since this is the pitch at which it would be most efficient to spool up to speed with. The yaw system is always keeping the machine head in the wind, no matter what.
>> Even while running in a strong wind, the turbine makes many corrections each minute in blade pitch <<
Correct - in order to extract the max power, the balde angles are adjusted very often, very quickly by even a fraction of a degree - all done by very small motors.
>> ...and probably in turbine drag. <<
HUH???
>> All requiring significant power. <<
Wrong - compared to the overall production of one turbine, the power it consumes during operation or when standing still is chump-change!
>> Also, the turbine only engages and produce net power once a certain amount of blade speed (net power) is achieved. This speed is higher than most realize.<<
Correct - but that cut-in speed is lower than you think, particularly with the newer, larger rotor machines. About 5m/s is enough to go on-line and pump power into the grid.
>> So, even all the alignment and blade changes at low speed are also from power being sucked off the grid. In other words, at low speed the blade is just free wheeling with no power being produced. <<
Partly correct - in the run-up phase, the turbine spools up to speed and performs a bunch of self-checks. As I said before, no blade adjustments are being done until the turbine decides it sees enough to on-line and produce. Hardly any power is 'sucked off the grid' in that phase!
>> Personally, I refer to this region as the field of death" or the "bird scrambler farm"! The ground around them is literally littered with dead birds. <<
So you think that a turbine is a large Cuisinart which purees whole floks of birds? I do visit wind farms across the US and Europe regularly - remember, I work for one of those evil companies - and I have yet to find an area littered with dead birds or bats! Even the Audoban Society published a study saying that more birds get killed by cars, by flying into plate glass or by cats! I am not denying that birds get killed by flying into the blades but the magnitude is by far not as you describe it.

The rest of your ramblings exceeds my will to respond, so I won't comment.
I do not wish for any soaring site to loose its value or utility - we have lost too many in the US already - but I think who ever is developing the site will give a hoot about a bunch of guys wanting to zipp over that ridge in their white shimy toys for their own pleasure! Trying to stop a project like this needs better arguments than what was cited above.

GM

[Sean F (F2)]

GM,

You are the man!


On Tuesday, October 8, 2013 5:55:41 AM UTC-4, GM wrote:
> On Monday, October 7, 2013 4:34:57 PM UTC+2, Sean F (F2) wrote:
>
> > Probably 30 amps... Enough to keep itself aligned into the wind and to adjust the blade pitch (X 100's of turbines in each farm). The motors required to manage those tasks are not small! Nor is the power required to run those motors and manage the electronics required to operate the systems. If you ever stand near one while they are stopped and trying to re-"spin" you learn that they are working fairly hard, constantly adjusting the blade heading and blade angle. Even while running in a strong wind, the turbine makes many corrections each minute in blade pitch and probably in turbine drag. All requiring significant power. Also, the turbine only engages and produce net power once a certain amount of blade speed (net power) is achieved. This speed is higher than most realize. So, even all the alignment and blade changes at low speed are also from power being sucked off the grid. In other words, at low speed the blade is just free wheeling with no power being produced. We have a huge "windfarm" to the NE of Ionia near Alma Michigan. We fly over it often. Probably 150 - 200 generators. Personally, I refer to this region as the field of death" or the "bird scrambler farm"! The ground around them is literally littered with dead birds. I would fear greatly for the soaring birds in the Mifflin habitat. Were is the EPA on this one? Hmmm? Sure, its a big problem when you endanger the spotted owl (in any capitalist endeavor)...but when hundreds of hawks and other birds are ensured of a brutal inhumane death every month per wind turbine blade strikes its overlooked because its a liberal project. Enjoy the death of birds at the hand of green energy liberals below: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwVz5hdAMGU http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/bird-slicing-eco-crucifixes/page/2 http://now.msn.com/bird-hits-wind-turbine-rare-white-throated-needletail-killed-instantly http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2350267/Rare-bird-white-throated-needletail-killed-wind-turbine-crowd-twitchers.html https://www.google.com/search?q=bird+hit+by+wind+turbine&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=L8NSUtybG86AygHS14HYDg&ved=0CF4QsAQ&biw=1024&bih=629&dpr=2 The horror of liberals and their wind turbines are very real for soaring birds. Liberals, where are you on this one? Hmmmm? Tens of thousands on INNOCENT BIRDS are dying each and every day! Their blood is on your hands!
>
>
>
> Sean,
>
>
>
> thanks for your enlightening and education! Is all your wisdom based on true insight knowledge, i.e. you worked in the industry and have climbed countless turbines, etc. or did you just Google the issue and then re-post all the bit & pieces which support your point of view? Perhaps you stayed at a Holiday-Inn Express last night. ;-) Remember - you cannot believe everything on the internet - that's how WW-1 got started!
>
> As an FYI - I work in designing and repairing wind turbines for a good number of years, so here we go:
>
> >> Enough to keep itself aligned into the wind and to adjust the blade pitch <<
>
> Correct. That way, the turbine can get back on-line at a moments notice, once the wind picks up to above cut-in speed.
>
> >> The motors required to manage those tasks are not small <<
>
> Wrong - these motors have a rating of a few kW and they are in operation a few seconds at a time. Your home A/C probably has a bigger motor.
>
> >> Nor is the power required to run those motors and manage the electronics required to operate the systems <<
>
> Wrong - a turned off turbine consumes only a few kW to keep the batteries charged, keep up the comm with the remote controll center, etc. That number goes up should there be a low or no-wind situation in the winter, when heaters kick in to keep the oil fluid and the controlls from collecting condensation.
>
> >> If you ever stand near one while they are stopped and trying to re-"spin" you learn that they are working fairly hard, constantly adjusting the blade heading and blade angle. <<
>
> Partly wrong - if a turbine senses that the wind is picking up and it may trend towards the cut-in speed, it adjusts the balde pitch to the 'run-up' position and keeps them there since this is the pitch at which it would be most efficient to spool up to speed with. The yaw system is always keeping the machine head in the wind, no matter what.
>
> >> Even while running in a strong wind, the turbine makes many corrections each minute in blade pitch <<
>
> Correct - in order to extract the max power, the balde angles are adjusted very often, very quickly by even a fraction of a degree - all done by very small motors.
>
> >> ...and probably in turbine drag. <<
>
> HUH???
>
> >> All requiring significant power. <<
>
> Wrong - compared to the overall production of one turbine, the power it consumes during operation or when standing still is chump-change!
>
> >> Also, the turbine only engages and produce net power once a certain amount of blade speed (net power) is achieved. This speed is higher than most realize.<<
>
> Correct - but that cut-in speed is lower than you think, particularly with the newer, larger rotor machines. About 5m/s is enough to go on-line and pump power into the grid.
>
> >> So, even all the alignment and blade changes at low speed are also from power being sucked off the grid. In other words, at low speed the blade is just free wheeling with no power being produced. <<
>
> Partly correct - in the run-up phase, the turbine spools up to speed and performs a bunch of self-checks. As I said before, no blade adjustments are being done until the turbine decides it sees enough to on-line and produce.. Hardly any power is 'sucked off the grid' in that phase!
>
> >> Personally, I refer to this region as the field of death" or the "bird scrambler farm"! The ground around them is literally littered with dead birds. <<
>
> So you think that a turbine is a large Cuisinart which purees whole floks of birds? I do visit wind farms across the US and Europe regularly - remember, I work for one of those evil companies - and I have yet to find an area littered with dead birds or bats! Even the Audoban Society published a study saying that more birds get killed by cars, by flying into plate glass or by cats! I am not denying that birds get killed by flying into the blades but the magnitude is by far not as you describe it.
>
>
>
> The rest of your ramblings exceeds my will to respond, so I won't comment..
>
> I do not wish for any soaring site to loose its value or utility - we have lost too many in the US already - but I think who ever is developing the site will give a hoot about a bunch of guys wanting to zipp over that ridge in their white shimy toys for their own pleasure! Trying to stop a project like this needs better arguments than what was cited above.
>
>
>
> GM

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, October 6, 2013 11:01:33 AM UTC-4, KS wrote:
> Two companies are planning the installation of wind turbines on top of Jacks Mt near the Mifflin County Airport where contests have been held for 23 years. Ridge running on Jacks is vital to the success of soaring at Mifflin and these devices would eliminate an essential part of the soaring activity.
>
> See http://mifflin.ridgesewing.com/Jacks.htm for a further link to information which will show a picture of what the wind farm would look like and a request for letters/e-mails to help thwart this project.
>
>
>
> Thanks for your help.
>
>
>
> Karl Striedieck
>
>
>
> PS Send this on to those who might not follow ras but could help.

Raptor mortality due to windmills is not an issue with the type of wind turbine structure currently used - cylindrical towers. Out west at places like Tehachipi the situation is different due to the lattice type towers used. There, with very few perching places, the hawks and eagles use the towers to scan for prey, and then get clobbered as they dive off.

Bat mortality is a different story, as many have been killed by wind turbines here in the East. I talked to a bat expert who consults with wind energy companies and he said the companies he's worked with have altered their operations to lessen bat mortality. These measures include shutting down the turbines at night when the wind speed is less than 15 mph in the summer. They don't miss much generation potential as a result.

A stronger case for opposing the Jacks wind farm proposals by Volkswind and Eon is protection of endangered species and water resources. Don't laugh but there are some difficult DEP hoops to jump through concerning the timber rattle snake and Allegheny wood rat.

And the sharp peak and steep drop offs where the turbines would be placed call for extensive mountain top removal and all the implies for water resources (and esthetics) for the residents in the valley.

Strict environmental zoning by the townships that would be impacted is important to the effort to keep Jacks Mt useable for soaring, and that is the thrust of the current appeal for letters/e-mails to the two townships.

Pa. has hundreds of windmills on the Allegheny Plateau and that is good place to put them. There is room and wind for thousands more.

Personally, we support green energy by being 100% self sufficient through a grid-connected PV system and pond-based geo thermal. But there are situations where the geology, esthetics and environmental conditions argue against an industrial scale wind farm. Jacks Mt is such a place.

Thanks for those letters and e-mails.

Karl Striedieck and past and future ridge runners.

[Josh Fletcher]

GM,

Thank you for you expert reply!

Guys,
I hope that they will not put the farm on top of a great soaring location, I will do my part and write a letter, but Wind Farms are not evil empires! I would much rather get my energy or a least as much of it as possible, from Wind and Solar than from dirty coal. I spend a lot of time in places most people can't pronounce, and air you can eat! Trust me when I say, you would much more prefer to breath the clean air that Wind and Solar provide than breath what I have to live with most of my time away!

It's just another perspective! I hope we don't lose this great soaring site, but bashing Wind is not the answer!

My two cents,
Josh


Sean,

thanks for your enlightening and education! Is all your wisdom based on true insight knowledge, i.e. you worked in the industry and have climbed countless turbines, etc. or did you just Google the issue and then re-post all the bit & pieces which support your point of view? Perhaps you stayed at a Holiday-Inn Express last night. ;-) Remember - you cannot believe everything on the internet - that's how WW-1 got started!
As an FYI - I work in designing and repairing wind turbines for a good number of years, so here we go:
Enough to keep itself aligned into the wind and to adjust the blade pitch
Correct. That way, the turbine can get back on-line at a moments notice, once the wind picks up to above cut-in speed.
The motors required to manage those tasks are not small
Wrong - these motors have a rating of a few kW and they are in operation a few seconds at a time. Your home A/C probably has a bigger motor.
Nor is the power required to run those motors and manage the electronics required to operate the systems
Wrong - a turned off turbine consumes only a few kW to keep the batteries charged, keep up the comm with the remote controll center, etc. That number goes up should there be a low or no-wind situation in the winter, when heaters kick in to keep the oil fluid and the controlls from collecting condensation.
If you ever stand near one while they are stopped and trying to re-"spin" you learn that they are working fairly hard, constantly adjusting the blade heading and blade angle.
Partly wrong - if a turbine senses that the wind is picking up and it may trend towards the cut-in speed, it adjusts the balde pitch to the 'run-up' position and keeps them there since this is the pitch at which it would be most efficient to spool up to speed with. The yaw system is always keeping the machine head in the wind, no matter what.
Even while running in a strong wind, the turbine makes many corrections each minute in blade pitch
Correct - in order to extract the max power, the balde angles are adjusted very often, very quickly by even a fraction of a degree - all done by very small motors.
...and probably in turbine drag.
HUH???
All requiring significant power.
Wrong - compared to the overall production of one turbine, the power it consumes during operation or when standing still is chump-change!
Also, the turbine only engages and produce net power once a certain amount of blade speed (net power) is achieved. This speed is higher than most realize.
Correct - but that cut-in speed is lower than you think, particularly with the newer, larger rotor machines. About 5m/s is enough to go on-line and pump power into the grid.
So, even all the alignment and blade changes at low speed are also from power being sucked off the grid. In other words, at low speed the blade is just free wheeling with no power being produced.
Partly correct - in the run-up phase, the turbine spools up to speed and performs a bunch of self-checks. As I said before, no blade adjustments are being done until the turbine decides it sees enough to on-line and produce. Hardly any power is 'sucked off the grid' in that phase!
Personally, I refer to this region as the field of death" or the "bird scrambler farm"! The ground around them is literally littered with dead birds.
So you think that a turbine is a large Cuisinart which purees whole floks of birds? I do visit wind farms across the US and Europe regularly - remember, I work for one of those evil companies - and I have yet to find an area littered with dead birds or bats! Even the Audoban Society published a study saying that more birds get killed by cars, by flying into plate glass or by cats! I am not denying that birds get killed by flying into the blades but the magnitude is by far not as you describe it.

The rest of your ramblings exceeds my will to respond, so I won't comment.
I do not wish for any soaring site to loose its value or utility - we have lost too many in the US already - but I think who ever is developing the site will give a hoot about a bunch of guys wanting to zipp over that ridge in their white shimy toys for their own pleasure! Trying to stop a project like this needs better arguments than what was cited above.

GM[/QUOTE]

[Tim Hanke]

Couldn't one argue that this will ruin the Amish simplicity of life? Can you get. Enough Amish against this?

Tim

[[email protected]]

Eric, I shared your post with my pet canary, and he was quite offended at the implication that small non predator avian species would be considered inferior. I must admit he has a point. I personally think crows are the most intelligent North American bird. You wont see them flying into a whirling blade. I have absolutely no data to support my position in this matter..
DLB

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

wrote, On 10/9/2013 5:56 PM:
> Eric, I shared your post with my pet canary, and he was quite
> offended at the implication that small non predator avian species
> would be considered inferior. I must admit he has a point. I
> personally think crows are the most intelligent North American bird.
> You wont see them flying into a whirling blade. I have absolutely
> no data to support my position in this matter. DLB

Canarys are too smart to fly into windows and cars, since they are
working hard, deep in the coal mines. I was thinking more of starlings.
which even our Audubon fanatic neighbor detested.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

[Brad[_2_]]

On Wednesday, October 9, 2013 5:56:57 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> Eric, I shared your post with my pet canary, and he was quite offended at the implication that small non predator avian species would be considered inferior. I must admit he has a point. I personally think crows are the most intelligent North American bird. You wont see them flying into a whirling blade. I have absolutely no data to support my position in this matter.
>
> DLB

yes, but before going to far on the side of crows I must share this:

Researchers for the Massachusetts Turnpike Authority found
over 200 dead crows near greater Boston recently, and there
was concern that they may have died from Avian Flu. A Bird
Pathologist examined the remains of all the crows, and, to
everyone's relief, confirmed the problem was definitely NOT
Avian Flu. The cause of death appeared to be vehicular impacts.

However, during the detailed analysis it was noted that varying
colors of paints appeared on the bird's beaks and claws. By
analyzing these paint residues it was determined that 98% of the
crows had been killed by impact with trucks, while only 2% were
killed by an impact with a car.

MTA then hired an Ornithological Behaviorist to determine if
there was a cause for the disproportionate percentages of truck
kills versus car kills.

The Ornithological Behaviorist very quickly concluded the cause:
when crows eat road kill, they always have a look-out crow in a
nearby tree to warn of impending danger. They discovered that
while all the lookout crows could shout "Cah", not a single one
could shout "Truck."

Brad

[Sean F (F2)]

http://dailycaller.com/2013/07/23/study-feds-underestimated-how-many-birds-get-killed-by-wind-turbines/

Convenient how the liberally controlled federal governments "errors" always seem to go in favor of what they are pushing (global warming, climate change, etc) until their research gets called out as bull****. Then it gets corrected, reluctantly. Here is another great example.

http://news.heartland.org/newspaper-article/2013/07/24/us-wind-turbines-kill-14-million-birds-and-bats-every-year

http://trib.com/business/energy/fed-guidelines-for-wind-farms-aim-to-reduce-bird-killing/article_c342552a-a5ac-5d5b-83d6-13eb3ea3670b.html

....and my personal favorite...WIND ENERGY GETS AWAY WITH MURDER! http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2013/09/22/wind-energy-gets-away-with-murder/

[Sean F (F2)]

And the same for global cooling (sorry, I meant warming...), wait a minute............ 15 years of cooling? How is that even possible? WTH?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/climatechange/10294082/Global-warming-No-actually-were-cooling-claim-scientists.html

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Sean F (F2) wrote, On 10/10/2013 9:28 AM:
> And the same for global cooling (sorry, I meant warming...), wait a
> minute............ 15 years of cooling? How is that even possible?
> WTH?
>
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/climatechange/...

Please, PLEASE DON'T START THESE POLITICALLY CHARGED ARGUMENTS
ON RAS!

There are literally thousands of internet sites to discuss global
warming and climate change, places where everyone there WANTS to discuss
it, unlike here at RAS, where discussing soaring is what everyone wants.

So, please, anyone that wants to respond to Sean's post
(for/against/whatever), please do it privately and not on RAS.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Sean F (F2) wrote, On 10/10/2013 9:25 AM:
> http://dailycaller.com/2013/07/23/study-feds-underestimated....
> Convenient how the liberally controlled federal governments "errors"
> always seem to go in favor of what they are pushing (global warming,
> climate change, etc) until their research gets called out as
> bull****. Then it gets corrected, reluctantly. Here is another
> great example.
>
> http://news.heartland.org/newspaper-article/2013/07/24/us-...
> http://trib.com/business/energy/fed-guidelines-for-wind-farms-aim-to-reduce-bird-kill...
>
> ...and my personal favorite...WIND ENERGY GETS AWAY WITH MURDER!
> http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2013/09/22/wind-energy-g...

I really hope we will all stay focused on Karl's concern. Dividing us up
into various political groups and arguing about which energy source is
best will not help soaring at Mifflin.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Thu, 10 Oct 2013 09:28:36 -0700, Sean F (F2) wrote:

> And the same for global cooling (sorry, I meant warming...), wait a
> minute............ 15 years of cooling? How is that even possible?
> WTH?
>
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/climatechange/10294082/
Global-warming-No-actually-were-cooling-claim-scientists.html

Hey, there is a good reason why the Telegraph is known as the Torygraph
in these parts. To put that in perspective: our Tories have a lot in
common with your Tea Party.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Luke Szczepaniak]

On 10/10/2013 4:00 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> arguing about which energy source is best will not help soaring at Mifflin


As glider pilots, I think we can all agree that the best energy source
is the SUN :)

Cheers,
Luke Szczepaniak

[KiloKilo[_2_]]

agree ... argue to put them on the ridge next to Harrisburg ... on Blue Mountain ... easier hookup to the grid, as well.

kk

[Dave Nadler]

Karl, as a long-time WSJ reader, can you comment on Friday's editorial on windmills killing raptors ?

[Tom Kelley #711]

On Sunday, October 13, 2013 12:41:37 PM UTC-6, Dave Nadler wrote:
> Karl, as a long-time WSJ reader, can you comment on Friday's editorial on windmills killing raptors ?

Whats so hard to understand on this? Its simply about death and taxes.

"There are two scandals here. First, wind turbines are killing legally protected eagles in the name of slowing climate change, but whatever reductions in carbon-dioxide emissions that may be occurring is equivalent to a baby's burp in a hurricane.

Second, the wind-energy industry is lobbying to extend a production tax credit—the 2.2 cent-per-kilowatt-hour subsidy that has fueled the turbine-building craze over the past few years. Last year the subsidy was extended for one year, at a cost to taxpayers of $12 billion. Another one-year extension will cost an additional $6.1 billion, according to a recent estimate by the congressional Joint Tax Committee."

[Tom Kelley #711]

On Sunday, October 13, 2013 1:45:25 PM UTC-6, Tom Kelley #711 wrote:
> On Sunday, October 13, 2013 12:41:37 PM UTC-6, Dave Nadler wrote:
>
> > Karl, as a long-time WSJ reader, can you comment on Friday's editorial on windmills killing raptors ?
>
>
>
> Whats so hard to understand on this? Its simply about death and taxes.
>
>
>
> "There are two scandals here. First, wind turbines are killing legally protected eagles in the name of slowing climate change, but whatever reductions in carbon-dioxide emissions that may be occurring is equivalent to a baby's burp in a hurricane.
>
>
>
> Second, the wind-energy industry is lobbying to extend a production tax credit—the 2.2 cent-per-kilowatt-hour subsidy that has fueled the turbine-building craze over the past few years. Last year the subsidy was extended for one year, at a cost to taxpayers of $12 billion. Another one-year extension will cost an additional $6.1 billion, according to a recent estimate by the congressional Joint Tax Committee."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303342104579099060830782406.html