Best cross country ship class

[Seattle]

I'm in the market for a standard class or 15 meter flapped ship. This is my first ship, and I doubt I want to deal with 18 m of wings.

An example would be a Discus 2 vs ASW 27. Currently most of my flight goals are simple: get as high up, and far out as possible. Speed is nice, but I'm doubtful I'll be comfortable in a competition for many seasons.

All other things being equal, which is the better type (flapped or non-flapped) for staying up a long time and, eventually, cross country flights?

Thanks!

[[email protected]]

It's like stick shift vs. automatic. No significant performance difference unless you are a pro. Most of the time your flap settings will inevitably be sub-optimal, but it is fun to fool yourself that you can go a wee bit faster.

On Tuesday, October 15, 2013 2:29:01 PM UTC-7, Seattle wrote:
> I'm in the market for a standard class or 15 meter flapped ship. This is my first ship, and I doubt I want to deal with 18 m of wings.
>
>
>
> An example would be a Discus 2 vs ASW 27. Currently most of my flight goals are simple: get as high up, and far out as possible. Speed is nice, but I'm doubtful I'll be comfortable in a competition for many seasons.
>
>
>
> All other things being equal, which is the better type (flapped or non-flapped) for staying up a long time and, eventually, cross country flights?
>
>
>
> Thanks!

[BobW]

On 10/15/2013 3:29 PM, Seattle wrote:
> I'm in the market for a standard class or 15 meter flapped ship. This is
> my first ship, and I doubt I want to deal with 18 m of wings.
>
> An example would be a Discus 2 vs ASW 27. Currently most of my flight
> goals are simple: get as high up, and far out as possible. Speed is nice,
> but I'm doubtful I'll be comfortable in a competition for many seasons.
>
> All other things being equal, which is the better type (flapped or
> non-flapped) for staying up a long time and, eventually, cross country
> flights?
>
> Thanks!
>

Remember Bill Murray in "Meatballs"? (It doesn't matter. It just doesn't
matter. It REALLY doesn't matter!!!...)

"Pilot, know thyself!" applies, e.g. your comment, "...I doubt I want to deal
with 18 m of wings" suggests to me you're pondering these sorts of aspects. In
performance terms, there's no practical difference between flapped/unflapped
15-meter ships, for where you are on soaring's grand and endlessly long
learning curve (hence the Bill Murray reference)...and there won't be for
years, if you're "a typical human glider pilot." (You'll know if and when
you've reached "the detectable performance difference" stage.)

Find something within your budget and geographic convenience parameters, in
which you can fit, that has "a decent trailer" (your definition), have someone
more knowledgeable than you co-inspect it and its paperwork if you wish, buy
it, and then go and have even more fun than looking for it was!

Lettuce know what you eventually get!

Bob W.

[Craig R.]

Perhaps a better movie analogy would be "show me the money!". Your choice in gliders will be dictated by how much you want to spend on one. Once you have a dollar figure in mind, you can narrow down your options.
Craig

[[email protected]]

Craig,

I hear you. However, I can pick a budget of $30k and usually pick between a flapped and non-flapped (flapless?) for close to that budget. The same seems true for $50k and $70k.

Based on the replies, now I'm trying to understand why anyone bothers to make flapped sailplanes if there is no measurable difference in having them...

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, October 15, 2013 8:53:11 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> Based on the replies, now I'm trying to understand why anyone bothers to make flapped
> sailplanes if there is no measurable difference in having them...

In my experience owning various flapped and unflapped gliders, with flaps, you have a better view over the nose and can make a slower approach than is typical of equivalent unflapped gliders. If you always land at airports, it won''t make much difference, but I made my share of mistakes while learning cross-country flying, flaps saved my bacon more than once. I also found it advantageous to crank in full thermal flap (and sometimes more) when climbing full of water in the kind of small tight cores we sometimes need to deal with out here on the west coast. And, if you're cruising at 90+ knots with water, negative flaps do make a noticeable difference.

On the other hand, the work load in a flapped glider is noticeably higher than without flaps, for that reason alone I'll probably do without in my next glider...

[Jim White[_3_]]

At 21:29 15 October 2013, Seattle wrote:
>I'm in the market for a standard class or 15 meter flapped ship. This is
>my first ship, and I doubt I want to deal with 18 m of wings.
>
>An example would be a Discus 2 vs ASW 27. Currently most of my flight
>goals are simple: get as high up, and far out as possible. Speed is
nice,
>but I'm doubtful I'll be comfortable in a competition for many seasons.
>
>All other things being equal, which is the better type (flapped or
>non-flapped) for staying up a long time and, eventually, cross country
>flights?
>
>Thanks!
>
Had both. Flapped gliders are more complicated than standard class gliders.
If you want to learn cross country flying then there is plenty to be
getting on with without the complication of flaps. You are also more likely
to make good field landings in an unpowered unflapped glider.

IMO best first gliders are either LS4/8 or Discus. These types have very
good performance, are strong, reasonably priced, and are great platforms
for developing your cross country skills. When you have done a few 500s you
can then trade up to a 15M or 18M class ship and push further and faster.

[Justin Craig[_3_]]

All the reply's you have had are really relevant, in the short term you
will find it easier to get the performance out of a non flapped glider,
however flaps are a bonus especially in strong conditions.

I fly a 27 and absolutely love it. It has no real vices and is easy to
handle and goes very well. You will get to grips with the flaps quite
quickly, but it will take a little longer to get the best out of it.

I am also lucky to have about 300 hours in an LS8 which is also a stunning
glider, however when I get into the LS8 now, I really miss having the
flaps.

Flaps.....push the handle forward = go faster......pull it back = slow
down.

Forgive me if this is a simplistic view, but they are really not difficult.


In summary, I guess what I am saying is that you will be happy for a very
long time in a 27. If you can afford a 27...go for it and have fun.

JC



At 21:29 15 October 2013, Seattle wrote:
>I'm in the market for a standard class or 15 meter flapped ship. This is
>my first ship, and I doubt I want to deal with 18 m of wings.
>
>An example would be a Discus 2 vs ASW 27. Currently most of my flight
>goals are simple: get as high up, and far out as possible. Speed is
nice,
>but I'm doubtful I'll be comfortable in a competition for many seasons.
>
>All other things being equal, which is the better type (flapped or
>non-flapped) for staying up a long time and, eventually, cross country
>flights?
>
>Thanks!
>

[Justin Craig[_3_]]

Oh....discuss with your CFI he / she will be best placed to advise you

At 08:16 16 October 2013, Justin Craig wrote:
>All the reply's you have had are really relevant, in the short term you
>will find it easier to get the performance out of a non flapped glider,
>however flaps are a bonus especially in strong conditions.
>
>I fly a 27 and absolutely love it. It has no real vices and is easy to
>handle and goes very well. You will get to grips with the flaps quite
>quickly, but it will take a little longer to get the best out of it.
>
>I am also lucky to have about 300 hours in an LS8 which is also a
stunning
>glider, however when I get into the LS8 now, I really miss having the
>flaps.
>
>Flaps.....push the handle forward = go faster......pull it back = slow
>down.
>
>Forgive me if this is a simplistic view, but they are really not
difficult.
>
>
>In summary, I guess what I am saying is that you will be happy for a very
>long time in a 27. If you can afford a 27...go for it and have fun.
>
>JC
>
>
>
>At 21:29 15 October 2013, Seattle wrote:
>>I'm in the market for a standard class or 15 meter flapped ship. This
is
>>my first ship, and I doubt I want to deal with 18 m of wings.
>>
>>An example would be a Discus 2 vs ASW 27. Currently most of my flight
>>goals are simple: get as high up, and far out as possible. Speed is
>nice,
>>but I'm doubtful I'll be comfortable in a competition for many seasons.
>>
>>All other things being equal, which is the better type (flapped or
>>non-flapped) for staying up a long time and, eventually, cross country
>>flights?
>>
>>Thanks!
>>
>
>

[kirk.stant]

On Tuesday, October 15, 2013 10:53:11 PM UTC-5, wrote:

> Based on the replies, now I'm trying to understand why anyone bothers to make flapped sailplanes if there is no measurable difference in having them....

Well, when you top out that last thermal with a good final glide home, it sure is nice to push the flaps up and walk away from your buddy in his un-flapped glider...

Seriously, there is a small but significant difference in performance with flaps. But it depends a lot on where and how you fly - Eastern US, fun flying, not so much (except on the ridge?). Out West, racing or pushing hard, it can be significant. Same can be said about water - both are a bit addictive when sampled in the right conditions (120+ knot final glides, for example!)

For some, the slower landing speed of flapped gliders is appealing.

Me, I like having something useful to do with my left hand!

Kirk
66
LS6-b

[[email protected]]

Good feedback.

So, I'll run this by my CFI-G and some more of my club mates.

Here is where I am now:
Discus 2b
ASW-27
a distant third: SZD 55-1
long shot: DG 303 Elan (this is probably a DQ due to A/D spar issue)

In my research, it has become clear that the Discus is pretty much the best standard class you can get.

For the 15m class I like the ASW for some reason, even though the Ventus 2 seems to win many more championships.

I'm open to comments and advice from all, especially if you have flown any of these ships. I'm going to make a buy decision in the next week or so...hopefully.

Thanks for the help!

[[email protected]]

Flaps (27, V2) have small but distinct advantages. Thermal slower, see over the nose, very high speed glides, ridge bombing, final approach steeper, land slower, better takeoff control. I think they are abundantly worth the roughly $5-$10k price you pay.

As others pointed out, modern flapped gliders are very easy to fly -- no real extra skill needed. Really, the only reason unflapped gliders exist is because there was an FAI class that said no flaps.

Notice "was." The standard class is dying out as a competition class. Though no new standard/15 meter gliders are being made, 15 meter will remain a very competitive essentially one design class for a long time. If you buy standard, get ready to join club class, handicapped regionals, or suffer flap envy in 15 meter. Sure, everyone says the performance is "almost" the same, and winning is up to the pilot, and you're only giving up 20 points a day.. Are you going to be happy with that?

If you buy standard, you will be thinking for a long time, "should I move up to flaps?" If you buy 15, that won't be nagging you. Of course, "should I pay another $80k for 18 meters" will start nagging you, but that's easier to ignore.

John Cochrane (Pegasus, Discus CS, ASW27)

[Daniel Sazhin]

In terms of flaps, basically if you're not going to be cruising more than
75 knots (unballasted) most of the time, it doesn't really matter if you're
in a standard or flapped ship. Effectively, a standard ship has two "flap"
settings built into its airfoil; thermalling and cruising. The cruising
part is in the order of 0 to a couple positive degrees of flap, where the
smart German engineers figured you will be flying the vast majority of the
time. So if you're going to be flying in stronger conditions, above MC 3,
you'll notice the difference. Otherwise, they're practically identical.

Regards,
Daniel Sazhin

At 14:05 16 October 2013, wrote:
>Good feedback.
>
>So, I'll run this by my CFI-G and some more of my club mates.
>
>Here is where I am now:
>Discus 2b
>ASW-27
>a distant third: SZD 55-1
>long shot: DG 303 Elan (this is probably a DQ due to A/D spar issue)
>
>In my research, it has become clear that the Discus is pretty much the
best
>standard class you can get.
>
>For the 15m class I like the ASW for some reason, even though the Ventus
2
>seems to win many more championships.
>
>I'm open to comments and advice from all, especially if you have flown
any
>of these ships. I'm going to make a buy decision in the next week or
>so...hopefully.
>
>Thanks for the help!
>
>

[[email protected]]

John,

Thanks for the post. This is really helpful and makes a lot of sense.

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, October 16, 2013 8:52:06 AM UTC-6, wrote:
> John,
>
>
>
> Thanks for the post. This is really helpful and makes a lot of sense.

Go for a flapped ship for all of the reasons you have read....You will not regret it! Good luck!
Renny
(1-26B, Std. Cirrus, Pegasus, 304CZ, Discus 2B, LAK-17B FES) ;-)

[Jonathon May]

At 14:52 16 October 2013, wrote:
>John,
>
>Thanks for the post. This is really helpful and makes a lot of sense.
>
>
>
>Don't exclude the LS8 you will have to pay dg maintainance tax but its a
good ship and a different cockpit fit,at the end of the day if your not
comfy (spelled wrong ?) then its the ship.So sit in some,most people are
happy to show you their glider if its anything like a british club they
will offer good advise and tell you theirs is the best.

[[email protected]]

> Discus 2b
>
> ASW-27
>
> a distant third: SZD 55-1
>
> long shot: DG 303 Elan (this is probably a DQ due to A/D spar issue)

Your choices are excellent. It is very hard to wrong with the first 2.

I fly a 27 and can tell you that it is an awesome aircraft. No bad habits and goes like stink.

I haven't flown the D2 but the overwelming pilot response to the aircraft has been positive.

Someone mentioned east vs west flying and they may have landed on your most important point. I fly out west where we almost never launch without a full load of water. In these conditions the asw-27 (and sadly the asg-29 I can't afford) becomes an immortal creature of the sky. The D2 also excels at heavy wingloading but will noticably lose out to the ASW-27 when flown in strong conditions.

In weaker conditions the 27 is good but It's much more like "just-any-other-good-airplane" without 42gal of water.

Living out west... 27 or 29 is unbeatable. living east, I might be tempted by a D2 or (the real pilot pleaser), the LS8.

Terry

[K]

On Wednesday, October 16, 2013 8:05:02 AM UTC-6, wrote:

> So, I'll run this by my CFI-G and some more of my club mates.
>
>
>
> Here is where I am now:
>
> Discus 2b
>
> ASW-27
>
Forget asking your CFIG unless they have time in the ships you mentioned. I would second everything BB said. I fly at a 5000MSL Gliderport with density altitudes around 9K in the summer so TO and Landing speed is scary in a non flapped ship. Further, most pilots end up with a flapped ship anyways so just start with one.

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, October 16, 2013 7:05:02 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> Good feedback.
> Here is where I am now:
>
> Discus 2b
>
> ASW-27

You missed the LAK-17A, with 15M tips I didn't have any trouble staying with (and frequently outrunning) '27s, comes with polyurethane paint which will outlast the gelcoat on most '27s, you can get one for less than the cost of a decent '27, and you'll get a set of 18M tips for free...

[Paul Cordell]

From my own experience in over 40 different types of sailplanes, Flaps add very little additional workload. Like driving a manual transmission car, it quickly becomes second nature.

Certainly flaps add to better extreme high speed performance. Climb is a more subjective thing. The more experienced pilot with the best sorted out Glider is usually the best climber. The differences are so small in all the production sailplanes, that I doubt anyone that tells me that one particular model is the best,

As far as your question, I prefer Flaps for 1 reason. Landing. Regardless of where you fly, eventually you will have to land off field. It's my experience that steep slow low energy approaches are the easiest done in a flapped ship. I have never had as much confidence flying XC as I did in my ASW-20C. Flaps, spoilers and a great hydraulic disc brake.

As an ex Seattle area pilot. I would highly suggest as much XC exposure as possible. The Seattle Glider Council program with the DG-1000 is good. Hitch a ride with 1 of the members. You will learn a lot just riding along.

A would also suggest taking the time to commute to Ephrata or Wenatchee http://www.cascadesoaringsociety.com/ in Eastern Washington for your early XC flights. There are very few places in this Country that are as safe for Off field landings as these sites. They offer ability to fly Thermal, Ridge and Wave and land anywhere safely. If you can't make it to an airport, your next choice is at least a section sized field, usually with No obstacles.

Buy FLAPS, Get Training in a 2 Seater and Fly Often.

Good luck and let us know what you do.

Paul
Scottsdale AZ

[Mike the Strike]

I still own and have many cross-country flights out west in a D2. It's probably the sweetest thermalling ship I've ever owned. Full of water, it will hold its own with most 15-meter ships. The cross-country performance is more likely to be limited by the pilot than the ship.

Having said that, I will agree with others who have recommended flaps. Aero-tow with a fully-ballasted D2 is hairy if you have a weak or slow tug and I sure miss the flaps from my previous ASW-20 when it comes to landing in short spaces.

Mike

[Dan Marotta]

Love my LAK-17a.

My stable has included one ship without flaps and 4 with:

Mosquito B
AS-W 19b
LS-6a
LS-6a (love those LS ships, too!)
LAK-17a


> wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, October 16, 2013 7:05:02 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> Good feedback.
> Here is where I am now:
>
> Discus 2b
>
> ASW-27

You missed the LAK-17A, with 15M tips I didn't have any trouble staying with
(and frequently outrunning) '27s, comes with polyurethane paint which will
outlast the gelcoat on most '27s, you can get one for less than the cost of
a decent '27, and you'll get a set of 18M tips for free...

[[email protected]]

Great feedback, guys.

Based on this and word from my club mates, the guidance seems clearly on the side of flapped.

Given this, I've decided to pass on the very sweet, pristine Discus 2b Richard is selling in Colorado. It's one of the nicest used ships I've ever seen. A couple from my club happened to be in Colorado and had a look. They report its a great ship and really enjoyed talking to Richard.

So, now I'm really down to WHICH awesome 15m flapped ship.
Ventus 2 - (can't find one in my budget at the moment)
ASW 27 - (of the two on wings and wheels, one has sold and the other one is not responsive to my info requests)

Aside from the LAK, should there be other flapped, 15m ships in the $70k or less range I should be looking at?

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, October 16, 2013 5:23:52 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> Great feedback, guys.
>
>
>
> Based on this and word from my club mates, the guidance seems clearly on the side of flapped.
>
>
>
> Given this, I've decided to pass on the very sweet, pristine Discus 2b Richard is selling in Colorado. It's one of the nicest used ships I've ever seen. A couple from my club happened to be in Colorado and had a look. They report its a great ship and really enjoyed talking to Richard.
>
>
>
> So, now I'm really down to WHICH awesome 15m flapped ship.
>
> Ventus 2 - (can't find one in my budget at the moment)
>
> ASW 27 - (of the two on wings and wheels, one has sold and the other one is not responsive to my info requests)
>
>
>
> Aside from the LAK, should there be other flapped, 15m ships in the $70k or less range I should be looking at?

Well, I owned a HPH 304CZ for 7 years and it is a great ship that you may want to also consider. It is also in your $70K price range. Thx - Renny

[son_of_flubber]

When I was shopping for my first (and only) glider last year, it was just like discovering girls back in high school. I fell in and out of love with four different ones over a period of six months.

I'm glad I took some time to sort that out.

[Justin Craig[_3_]]

LS6 would be a really good shout. You may find one of the later models (LS6
b or C it think?) which would also give the 18 meter tips. Not to sure
about the cost though. In early 15 meter should be well within budget.

It has already been mentioned, but the DG tax ought to be a consideration,
although not a deterrent. LS gliders are some of the most lovely gliders to
fly. I have not flown a 6, but have 300 hours in the 8.




At 23:23 16 October 2013, wrote:
>Great feedback, guys.
>
>Based on this and word from my club mates, the guidance seems clearly on
>th=
>e side of flapped. =20
>
>Given this, I've decided to pass on the very sweet, pristine Discus 2b
>Rich=
>ard is selling in Colorado. It's one of the nicest used ships I've ever
>se=
>en. A couple from my club happened to be in Colorado and had a look.
>They=
> report its a great ship and really enjoyed talking to Richard.
>
>So, now I'm really down to WHICH awesome 15m flapped ship.
>Ventus 2 - (can't find one in my budget at the moment)
>ASW 27 - (of the two on wings and wheels, one has sold and the other one
>is=
> not responsive to my info requests)
>
>Aside from the LAK, should there be other flapped, 15m ships in the $70k
>or=
> less range I should be looking at?
>
>

[K]

On Wednesday, October 16, 2013 10:07:41 PM UTC-6, Echo wrote:
> This sport confuses me............
>
> Jordan
>
> CFIG+ASW20
Don't think too much into this. Go back to my previous post. If a guy is going to end up with a 27 or a V2 B/Cx why not just start with one. I agree the 20 is a great 35K ship and the 27 is a great 80K ship. On most afternoons I can fly a 300 in my 27 faster than my former 20. And it is easier to rig and more relaxing to fly.

[Phil Chidekel]

The problem with these kinds of posts on RAS is that you will always get a very contradictory response. Everyone has their preference and opinion. Read what you see here, do your own research about the ships mentioned, formulate your own opinion after everyone has said their piece, and do some more research to find the technical/handling details of the ship you are interested.

In the end, no matter what you buy, you will be able to learn to fly it, and I have no doubt that you will enjoy flying it. It takes a lot of flying for someone to outgrow an airplane.

Enjoy and good luck!

Phil

[John Galloway[_1_]]

If you can afford it, to my mind, the biggest factors that would
sway me in favour of an ASW27 over an ASW20 are, firstly, the
great improvement in cockpit crashworthiness and, secondly,
having an automatically connecting elevator on rigging.

The front cockpits of all the early GRP gliders are basically
streamlining fairings that simply disintegrate on impact.

There have been numerous reports of gliders with hotelier
connected elevators being launched with the elevator
disconnected. I knew one pilot who was killed that way when
flying in Europe. The problem isn't so much with hoteliers
themselves as it is with a pilot simply forgetting to connect them
and then compounding that by forgetting to do proper positive
control checks.

John Galloway

[Echo]

I think 20B's or C's have auto elevators. Very expensive mod for the 20A.

Jordan

[Echo]

True, and that works if soaring is your only iron in the aviation fire. But for many, we can't get tows 5/7 days, but if you had a 20 and a J3, now you can have a great time either way. Like I said, all depends where your priorities are in the sport. As someone else mentioned, everyone has to make their own decisions.

Jordan

[[email protected]]

Ok, folks. Update time.

I've looked around and e-mailed with a few folks about a couple ASW-27's (sadly, no Ventus 2 or LS6 is currently available in my price range).

I've also flown all of these ships in Condor, as well as their standard class versions.

I won't comment on the Condor experience, since it is purely subjective and probably has minimal connectivity to how the real world flight experience will be (having said that, it's still much better than nothing!).

Here are a couple of comments/questions:
1. I don't know what is going on, but it looks like the delta between a new ship and a 10+ year old ship is very small at the moment. Any comments on why that might be? Will more used ships become available when the season is over? Is there any other resource out there besides "Wings and Wheels?"

2. Remember I'm NEW. I just got my ticket this summer. Should my first ship really be flapped? I've never flown a flapped ship. My world consists of SGS 2-33 and PW-6. Any pilots who bought a flapped ship before flying one, speak up!

3. I want to fly badges and lots of cross country. I will land out...

4. The weather where I fly is weak (Seattle area). We have a house ridge with mild ridge thermals that work half the time or less. Breaking out from the ridge is possible and our better pilots fly far out on good days.

Does #2 - #4 change anyone's advice about my first ship?

-J

[Brad[_2_]]

On Saturday, October 19, 2013 11:31:39 AM UTC-7, wrote:
> Ok, folks. Update time.
>
>
>
> I've looked around and e-mailed with a few folks about a couple ASW-27's (sadly, no Ventus 2 or LS6 is currently available in my price range).
>
>
>
> I've also flown all of these ships in Condor, as well as their standard class versions.
>
>
>
> I won't comment on the Condor experience, since it is purely subjective and probably has minimal connectivity to how the real world flight experience will be (having said that, it's still much better than nothing!).
>
>
>
> Here are a couple of comments/questions:
>
> 1. I don't know what is going on, but it looks like the delta between a new ship and a 10+ year old ship is very small at the moment. Any comments on why that might be? Will more used ships become available when the season is over? Is there any other resource out there besides "Wings and Wheels?"
>
>
>
> 2. Remember I'm NEW. I just got my ticket this summer. Should my first ship really be flapped? I've never flown a flapped ship. My world consists of SGS 2-33 and PW-6. Any pilots who bought a flapped ship before flying one, speak up!
>
>
>
> 3. I want to fly badges and lots of cross country. I will land out...
>
>
>
> 4. The weather where I fly is weak (Seattle area). We have a house ridge with mild ridge thermals that work half the time or less. Breaking out from the ridge is possible and our better pilots fly far out on good days.
>
>
>
> Does #2 - #4 change anyone's advice about my first ship?
>
>
>
> -J

Since you are in the Seattle area you might want to contact some of the local pilots in the Seattle area. we've been flying XC out of KAWO (Arlington) for years now in 1.5 to 8+ knots of lift and having a great time. We can fly all day long (in the summer) starting with 1.5 kts at the start, then work our way to the foothills/mountains and end the day using strong lift in the mountains to get us home. Notable flights over 300km regularly happen and 500+ point days are getting common.

I fly with guys in standard and 15m class and everyone has a great time; everyone climbs well and runs well, even the guys in the "older" ships. I myself fly a 15m homebuilt and it does just fine.

Buy the best ship you can comfortable afford. You will get used to it, it will perform amazingly well and you will wonder what all the fuss was about.

My .02c worth.

Brad

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

On 10/19/2013 12:31 PM, wrote:
> Ok, folks. Update time.
>
<Snip...>
>
> 2. Remember I'm NEW. I just got my ticket this summer. Should my first
> ship really be flapped? I've never flown a flapped ship. My world
> consists of SGS 2-33 and PW-6. Any pilots who bought a flapped ship before
> flying one, speak up!

Funny you should ask. I went from 2-33s and 1-26s to 15 meter
large-deflection-flaps-only (i.e. no spoilers) glass with 128 total hours;
transitioning to flaps need not (*should* not) be negatively traumatic. See my
post in the recent thread "Use of Flaps in the Pattern" for prolix details.

> 3. I want to fly badges and lots of cross country. I will land out...

Good thinking. :-)


> 4. The weather where I fly is weak (Seattle area). We have a house ridge
> with mild ridge thermals that work half the time or less. Breaking out
> from the ridge is possible and our better pilots fly far out on good days.
>
> Does #2 - #4 change anyone's advice about my first ship?

Not mine. Buy what you can afford. Fly within your and the ship's
capabilities. Go have gobs of fun.

Bob W.

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, October 19, 2013 11:31:39 AM UTC-7, wrote:

> Does #2 - #4 change anyone's advice about my first ship?

My first glass ship was flapped - an LS-3. It was no problem. I owned and LS-4 for more than a decade and loved it. I now fly a -27 and love it even more.

The most important points IMO:

1) If you plan to fly XC in the western high deserts flaps are an important consideration for outlandings. Energy goes up with the square of approach speed - flaps help a lot.

2) If you intend to fly in contests 15M has better attendance. The notion that you can fly Standard against 15M and give up a few percent every day ultimately will frustrate you, but only if you fly FAI class and not Sports or Club. My guess is if you are just getting started this will be less of a consideration than #1 - at least for several years.

3) If you fly around Seattle take the time to explore sites where the conditions are stronger like Ephrata. It's worth the extra drive - really.

If you have less to spend, an ASW-20 or Ventus is a great ship. If you have twice as much a -27 or V2 will take you a long way and are even nicer to fly. There are other good options too, but those are the most plentiful models.

9B

[Mike C]

On Saturday, October 19, 2013 12:31:39 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> Ok, folks. Update time.
>
>
>
> I've looked around and e-mailed with a few folks about a couple ASW-27's (sadly, no Ventus 2 or LS6 is currently available in my price range).
>
>
>
> I've also flown all of these ships in Condor, as well as their standard class versions.
>
>
>
> I won't comment on the Condor experience, since it is purely subjective and probably has minimal connectivity to how the real world flight experience will be (having said that, it's still much better than nothing!).
>
>
>
> Here are a couple of comments/questions:
>
> 1. I don't know what is going on, but it looks like the delta between a new ship and a 10+ year old ship is very small at the moment. Any comments on why that might be? Will more used ships become available when the season is over? Is there any other resource out there besides "Wings and Wheels?"
>
>
>
> 2. Remember I'm NEW. I just got my ticket this summer. Should my first ship really be flapped? I've never flown a flapped ship. My world consists of SGS 2-33 and PW-6. Any pilots who bought a flapped ship before flying one, speak up!
>
>
>
> 3. I want to fly badges and lots of cross country. I will land out...
>
>
>
> 4. The weather where I fly is weak (Seattle area). We have a house ridge with mild ridge thermals that work half the time or less. Breaking out from the ridge is possible and our better pilots fly far out on good days.
>
>
>
> Does #2 - #4 change anyone's advice about my first ship?
>
>
>
> -J

"Any pilots who bought a flapped ship before flying one, speak up!"

Yes, most owners have.

There is nothing esoteric with a flapped sailplane, they are slightly more efficient at different speeds. Read the manual and once you know the speeds to fly it becomes second nature without much thinking about it. I have an older 15 meter ship and spend 85% of my time flying with two flap settings, one for climb the other for running above 70 knots. The main difference between a standard class ship and one with flaps it that you move your left wrist every once in a while. I have owned two flapped ships an RS-15 and a Mini Nimbus, both docile and a lot of fun to fly!

If you can afford an ASW 27 buy one, they are awesome machines.

Mike

Mini Nimbus
N8FZ

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Sat, 19 Oct 2013 11:31:39 -0700, tech.norcal wrote:

> 2. Remember I'm NEW. I just got my ticket this summer. Should my
> first ship really be flapped? I've never flown a flapped ship. My
> world consists of SGS 2-33 and PW-6. Any pilots who bought a flapped
> ship before flying one, speak up!
>
I did - ASW-20.

I'd put it this way: using the flaps is no big deal. Its rather like
having learned to drive in an automatic car and then converted to a
manual gear shift. Using clutch and gear lever isn't difficult, but being
it the right gear at all times takes a lot of practice.

In my case, retraining myself to use the flap lever as the prime speed
control rather than pushing the stick/retrimming took a bit of time.
After about 35 hours I'd 'got it' to the point of being in the right flap
setting 95+% of the time without needing to think about it.

Some background: I learnt to fly in glass (ASK-21,G103,Puchacz) before
getting my Bronze xc signoff and Silver C in the club's SZD Juniors. I
had 82 hours when I transitioned to a Pegase 90 and 270 hours, mostly in
the Pegase plus a little in a Discus or two, when I got the ASW-20.

I'm certain having that experience in higher performance unflapped
gliders helped my transition to flaps, just as time in the G103 was
beneficial for the move up from Juniors to more slippery gliders: speed
control in a G103 is more of an issue than it is in an ASK-21 or Puchacz.

For a variety of reasons I won't go into I now fly a Standard Libelle,
which I prefer to the '20, mainly because the way it likes to be flown is
closer to my natural flying style.

I'd say its essential to have at least sat in any type before you buy
one: you're going to be sitting in yours for a long time when you make
big flights and you really don't want to be uncomfortable during those
hours. If possible, fly an example before buying one though that can be
difficult, but renting may be possible.

HTH

--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[[email protected]]

>
> 2. Remember I'm NEW. I just got my ticket this summer. Should my first ship really be flapped? I've never flown a flapped ship. My world consists of SGS 2-33 and PW-6. Any pilots who bought a flapped ship before flying one, speak up!
>

I think here you are mixing up two issues -- what glider to buy, with a 5 + year horizon, and how to make the transition to that glider. A competent private glider can transition safely to either a modern flapped glider or standard class glider.

But EITHER is a substantial transition. Both are slippery in the pattern. The nose angles, sight pictures, sound pictures etc. are quite different from what you're used to. You're used to an effort to keep speed up in the pattern. Now you need to get used to keeping speed down in the pattern. These gliders love to go 80 knots. If you suffer from the standard illusion that putting the nose down makes you descend at a steeper angle -- an easy mistake to make in trainers -- you will find yourself getting to ground effect around 90 knots and sailing toward the far boundary of the airport. If you get in a hurry and put the wheel on the ground, as you can get away with in a 2-33, you will bounce down the runway in ever larger pios until the gear collapses. These issues are actually a little harder in a modern standard class glider such as D2 because no flaps and a low angle of incidence means the nose is pointing to the sky at low speeds, and you don't have the extra drag of landing flaps.

All told, since you're going to be spending about $80k on a glider, and then another $5k on instrument upgrades etc., invest $1k on transition training. If not available locally, fly to a really good operation that has a duo discus or similar glider, topnotch instructors, and a single seat high performance glider. Take some serious real world transition training in the duo, a checkout in the single, and get a few hours. Then you're ready to transition to whatever glider you end up buying. I don't know the northwest operations. Williams has a duo, asw24 and asw27, and great instructors. A few days spent at an operation like that would really pay off. These are not huge big deals. A good private pilot can do this in a few days. But they are important.

The differences between D2 and 27 are very small in this regard. The difference between either and a 2-33 is enormous. Buying one and then just jumping in to it with a verbal checkout and some condor time is not a great idea. A good instructor can show you what to look for and the common pitfalls

John Cochrane

[[email protected]]

Excellent!

Thanks so much for the wisdom. They should make this post a "sticky" or something for folks buying a first-time XC glider.

I do have time in our glass ship the PW-6 (two seat version of "world class" PW-5). And I LOVE it. I was hoping to get checked out in our PW-5 before the season ends, but that may not happen due to old man winter stealing our fun.

However, I'll be spending a week in Estrella in November just flying everything they will let me.

Also, a big reason for wanting my own ship is so I *can* take it to places like Ephrata, Wanatchee, and Northern Cali.

I'll update as I go through the purchase process...

[POPS]

;845808]Excellent!

Thanks so much for the wisdom. They should make this post a "sticky" or something for folks buying a first-time XC glider.

I do have time in our glass ship the PW-6 (two seat version of "world class" PW-5). And I LOVE it. I was hoping to get checked out in our PW-5 before the season ends, but that may not happen due to old man winter stealing our fun.

However, I'll be spending a week in Estrella in November just flying everything they will let me.

Also, a big reason for wanting my own ship is so I *can* take it to places like Ephrata, Wanatchee, and Northern Cali.

I'll update as I go through the purchase process...[/QUOTE]

Estrella. Excellent choice. Super helpful folks; with their unique desert...user friendly set up....

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Sun, 20 Oct 2013 08:56:30 -0700, tech.norcal wrote:

> I do have time in our glass ship the PW-6 (two seat version of "world
> class" PW-5). And I LOVE it. I was hoping to get checked out in our
> PW-5 before the season ends, but that may not happen due to old man
> winter stealing our fun.
>
I've flown a PW-5 about once, but for long enough to get a feel for it.
Be aware that its more like low/medium performance glass to fly (think
G102, SZD Junior, ASK-21 or Puchacz) than even mid 70's high performance
glass (e.g Pegase, Discus 1), let along anything more modern. The
instructor who said that flying a PW-5 was rather like flying a paper bag
wasn't wrong: its fairly slow and with a rather light wing loading.

I agree with John - get checked out in a modern two seater and a single
seater thats at least in the Discus 1 or Pegase class.

In the mean time if there's a Grob G103 in your area and you haven't
flown one, you could do a lot worse than adding that to your log book
before heading for Estrella. If nothing else, it will teach you quite a
bit about speed control in the circuit.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Craig R.]

With respect to fine pilots who have given worthwhile information in this thread, I'd highly recommend that you CALL (not email, blog, etc) someone with a great deal of experience in gliders. I can recommend 3 in your area that would be happy to spend the time talking directly to you about the pros and cons of ships and transition training. A 15 minute call will give you a great deal more information than this thread will and if you access local pilots, they will tailor the info to Western and Eastern Washington soaring conditions. Steve Northcraft is an LS8 driver who is also your regional SSA Director. Mike Newgard is the President of the SGC and flies a Ventus. Noel Wade runs the Dustup at EPH every year. Noel is currently transitioning from STD to 15M. All are excellent competition pilots. Their phone numbers can be found at the Seattle Glider Council website. Reach out to them. It definitely will be worth your while.

[[email protected]]

You know. The Germans have done a very good job designing their ships. They are all very, very good. Some people have a preference for blonds, or red heads, or dark hair. Some people go for long legs or long necks. You will love the ship you have.

My strongest advice is to consider the trailer first. A Cobra. Yes, there are several copies but....get a Cobra. Whatever ship is inside of the Cobra trailer is going to be wonderful.

The second STRONG suggestion is to get a one man rigging system. I use the Cobra system for both my gliders. I have been very happy. The only dings and dents in my planes are when people helped me rig instead of using the one-man-rigging system. People mean well but push and tug and lift and lower the wings at the wrong times and that is when I have obtained my "rashes.."

My experiences. My opinions.

[Roel Baardman]

> My strongest advice is to consider the trailer first. A Cobra. Yes, there
> are several copies but....get a Cobra. Whatever ship is inside of the Cob
> ra trailer is going to be wonderful.

I second that. I've seen a few gliders obtain damage because of not-so ideal trailers.
A trailer might be fine if you're fit and have a strict checklist, but when you outlanded after a long flight you might not pay attention. It would be great if a well-designed trailer can save
you at this moment.

I got one after someone scratched my wing when he wasn't paying attention. And I've seen a few club gliders obtain damage because of bad trailers.

> The second STRONG suggestion is to get a one man rigging system. I use the
> Cobra system for both my gliders. I have been very happy. The only dings
> and dents in my planes are when people helped me rig instead of using the
>one-man-rigging system. People mean well but push and tug and lift and low
> er the wings at the wrong times and that is when I have obtained my "rashes
> ."

Also true. Unfortunately you don't make a lot of friends when (de-)rigging your glider is a pain.

Roel

[Barnard Toulson]

At your stage and budget (?), LS4 - 15m, no flaps, excellent brakes so
superb approach control, no vices and a very easy rig. In my opion slightly
better co-ordinated than a Discus.

Flapped gliders have much heavier wings (eg ASW20) AND you need two left
hands to achieve a seamless approach when setting airbrakes and flaps into
short fields.

Unflapped may delay the Glider Pilots Bad Back for a few years!

The LS4 "A" does not self connect and is a bit fiddly 'till you get the
hang of it but this is a minor inconvenience.

I had an LS4 A for 10 years plus various flapped and unflapped gliders so
am unbiased.

If you can afford a bit more, go for an LS8.

Unfortunately there is a maintenance issue with LS over documentation which
adds to the running cost to build into the equation.

Barney



At 08:11 17 October 2013, Justin Craig wrote:
>LS6 would be a really good shout. You may find one of the later models
(LS6
>b or C it think?) which would also give the 18 meter tips. Not to sure
>about the cost though. In early 15 meter should be well within budget.
>
>It has already been mentioned, but the DG tax ought to be a
consideration,
>although not a deterrent. LS gliders are some of the most lovely gliders
to
>fly. I have not flown a 6, but have 300 hours in the 8.
>
>
>
>
>At 23:23 16 October 2013, wrote:
>>Great feedback, guys.
>>
>>Based on this and word from my club mates, the guidance seems clearly on
>>th=
>>e side of flapped. =20
>>
>>Given this, I've decided to pass on the very sweet, pristine Discus 2b
>>Rich=
>>ard is selling in Colorado. It's one of the nicest used ships I've ever
>>se=
>>en. A couple from my club happened to be in Colorado and had a look.
>>They=
>> report its a great ship and really enjoyed talking to Richard.
>>
>>So, now I'm really down to WHICH awesome 15m flapped ship.
>>Ventus 2 - (can't find one in my budget at the moment)
>>ASW 27 - (of the two on wings and wheels, one has sold and the other one
>>is=
>> not responsive to my info requests)
>>
>>Aside from the LAK, should there be other flapped, 15m ships in the $70k
>>or=
>> less range I should be looking at?
>>
>>
>
>

[son_of_flubber]

Perhaps a more relevant question to ask is "What is the best glider for me?" rather than "What is the best cross country ship?".

I'm not an expert, so I cannot give advice, but I don't understand why practically everyone on this thread is in favor of a pilot, who has not yet even been checked out on his club PW-5, trying to transition directly to a high performance glider.

I transitioned from SGS 2-33, to Blanik L-23, then quickly transitioned through a ASK-21 and a PW-6. Since the beginning of this season I've flown an SZD 51-1 Junior for about 50 hours in all sorts of conditions over changing terrain. I'm certainly not bored and I get better every time I fly. I've gotten much better at exploiting lift and I can much better handle strong turbulence and crosswind takeoffs and landings. I'm much better at reading the clouds and weather. The Junior has been an ideal learning platform for me.

The Junior seems to be designed for docility and durability. Look at the massive tail boom on a Junior some time. I can worry less about breaking the tail off when I land out, and I've heard that even experts do that some times. It would be rather discouraging to break a $70K ship on an early land out. Look at the tiny low drag tail boom on a high performance ship.

The other thing that I like about the Junior is that it climbs really well given the low wing loading, so I get the positive feedback of being able stay up even when I flub up. It is easy to fly and rewarding.

I did not want to get too much ship too soon, scare myself bad and ruin the sport forever.

I think the experts forget how much expertise they have, and how much a student needs to learn, and how much practice it takes. Sure, I'm flying a "paper bag", but I'm getting dam good at it and I'm having a blast.

I realize that I will have a lot to learn when/if I transition to a higher performance ship, but the perception and motor skills that I'm developing in the Junior will make that transition less of a crap shoot. A lot of things that I'm learning now (like finding lift) will apply directly to the slicker ship.

[EdByars]

On Monday, October 21, 2013 9:51:07 AM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> Perhaps a more relevant question to ask is "What is the best glider for me?" rather than "What is the best cross country ship?".
>
>
>
> I'm not an expert, so I cannot give advice, but I don't understand why practically everyone on this thread is in favor of a pilot, who has not yet even been checked out on his club PW-5, trying to transition directly to a high performance glider.
>
>
>
> I transitioned from SGS 2-33, to Blanik L-23, then quickly transitioned through a ASK-21 and a PW-6. Since the beginning of this season I've flown an SZD 51-1 Junior for about 50 hours in all sorts of conditions over changing terrain. I'm certainly not bored and I get better every time I fly. I've gotten much better at exploiting lift and I can much better handle strong turbulence and crosswind takeoffs and landings. I'm much better at reading the clouds and weather. The Junior has been an ideal learning platform for me.
>
>
>
> The Junior seems to be designed for docility and durability. Look at the massive tail boom on a Junior some time. I can worry less about breaking the tail off when I land out, and I've heard that even experts do that some times. It would be rather discouraging to break a $70K ship on an early land out. Look at the tiny low drag tail boom on a high performance ship.
>
>
>
> The other thing that I like about the Junior is that it climbs really well given the low wing loading, so I get the positive feedback of being able stay up even when I flub up. It is easy to fly and rewarding.
>
>
>
> I did not want to get too much ship too soon, scare myself bad and ruin the sport forever.
>
>
>
> I think the experts forget how much expertise they have, and how much a student needs to learn, and how much practice it takes. Sure, I'm flying a "paper bag", but I'm getting dam good at it and I'm having a blast.
>
>
>
> I realize that I will have a lot to learn when/if I transition to a higher performance ship, but the perception and motor skills that I'm developing in the Junior will make that transition less of a crap shoot. A lot of things that I'm learning now (like finding lift) will apply directly to the slicker ship.

[EdByars]

On Tuesday, October 15, 2013 5:29:01 PM UTC-4, Seattle wrote:
> I'm in the market for a standard class or 15 meter flapped ship. This is my first ship, and I doubt I want to deal with 18 m of wings.
>
>
>
> An example would be a Discus 2 vs ASW 27. Currently most of my flight goals are simple: get as high up, and far out as possible. Speed is nice, but I'm doubtful I'll be comfortable in a competition for many seasons.
>
>
>
> All other things being equal, which is the better type (flapped or non-flapped) for staying up a long time and, eventually, cross country flights?
>
>
>
> Thanks!

[EdByars]

On Tuesday, October 15, 2013 5:29:01 PM UTC-4, Seattle wrote:
> I'm in the market for a standard class or 15 meter flapped ship. This is my first ship, and I doubt I want to deal with 18 m of wings.
>
>
>
> An example would be a Discus 2 vs ASW 27. Currently most of my flight goals are simple: get as high up, and far out as possible. Speed is nice, but I'm doubtful I'll be comfortable in a competition for many seasons.
>
>
>
> All other things being equal, which is the better type (flapped or non-flapped) for staying up a long time and, eventually, cross country flights?
>
>
>
> Thanks!

I don't think resale value has been mentioned. If you value money like me you should stick to S-H, ASW,or LS. (I hope my many LAK friends will forgive me!).I had to quit 10 years ago but owned a couple dozen gliders (some flapped, most not) and raced them several thousand hours. My fav was LS-8. Close second was Discus (I owned 4 Disci, one A, two B's, and a 2.) My fav flapped was ASW-20. I flew but never owned a 27 and can't say enough good about it. I hope you have 50 years of soaring fun to look forward to as I did at your level. Ed Byars

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, October 20, 2013 11:56:30 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> Excellent! Thanks so much for the wisdom. They should make this post a "sticky" or something for folks buying a first-time XC glider. I do have time in our glass ship the PW-6 (two seat version of "world class" PW-5). And I LOVE it. I was hoping to get checked out in our PW-5 before the season ends, but that may not happen due to old man winter stealing our fun. However, I'll be spending a week in Estrella in November just flying everything they will let me. Also, a big reason for wanting my own ship is so I *can* take it to places like Ephrata, Wanatchee, and Northern Cali. I'll update as I go through the purchase process...

The "latest" ships like the V2, '27, D2, '28 provide one significant benefit relative to the '20, '24, Discus etc. That is that they have newer gelcoat.

[Chris Nicholas[_2_]]

Hardly anyone will take any notice of what I advise, but FWIW:

I am probably too old fashioned, but I think that somebody as little
experienced as the OP should learn to walk in something of
medium performance before running in a champion-class glider. I
am confident that many (most?) UK Chief Flying Instructors would
not let such an early pilot fly an advanced glider so soon. Ymmv.

Re what is the best glider, all such choices are compromises of one
sort or another. For most people, who are not going to be world or
national champions, a Lak 17b with FES in a Lak trailer, with one-
person rigging aids, is (I believe) substantially cheaper than an -27
etc., and would be good enough to give -27s, -29s and V2s etc. a
run for their money in equally skilled hands. In addition, it would
save needing a retrieve crew on most if not all occasions, enable
cross-country flights on days one otherwise wouldn’t, and give
more flying in less total hours per day devoted to it. And that would
greatly benefit a tyro pilot trying to gain experience to emulate the
top exponents, cheaper and faster than almost any other way.

IMHO.

Chris N

[MNLou]

I would like to add my $0.02 to what Chris stated. I jumped into soaring with both feet early last year. I realized very quickly that, in the club environment,owning my own glider would give me the opportunity to fly more and fly longer. I also realized that, being a very new pilot, I needed a safe and relatively uncomplicated ship. After some research, I purchased a PW-5. For less than the cost of a mid-priced new car, I was able to buy a very clean, low time, well instrumented sailplane with a beautiful trailer.

Because the PW-5 is a very nice handling ship with no nasty habits, my instructors had enough confidence in me and my ship to sign me off to fly the PW-5 post solo but pre license.

Now, after getting my "ticket" in Marfa last February with Burt Compton (thanks Burt!), the PW-5 is greatly helping me increase my flying and soaring skills.

Do I still drool over slicker ships with more wings - yep. Will I purchase a top level sailplane in the future - I certainly hope so. Will my wife sign off on the investment..........well, that is going to take some effort:)

Until then, I intend to fly the hell out of the PW-5 and enjoy every minute..

Lou

On Monday, October 21, 2013 7:09:25 PM UTC-5, Chris Nicholas wrote:
> Hardly anyone will take any notice of what I advise, but FWIW:
>
>
>
> I am probably too old fashioned, but I think that somebody as little
>
> experienced as the OP should learn to walk in something of
>
> medium performance before running in a champion-class glider. I
>
> am confident that many (most?) UK Chief Flying Instructors would
>
> not let such an early pilot fly an advanced glider so soon. Ymmv.
>
>
>
> Re what is the best glider, all such choices are compromises of one
>
> sort or another. For most people, who are not going to be world or
>
> national champions, a Lak 17b with FES in a Lak trailer, with one-
>
> person rigging aids, is (I believe) substantially cheaper than an -27
>
> etc., and would be good enough to give -27s, -29s and V2s etc. a
>
> run for their money in equally skilled hands. In addition, it would
>
> save needing a retrieve crew on most if not all occasions, enable
>
> cross-country flights on days one otherwise wouldn’t, and give
>
> more flying in less total hours per day devoted to it. And that would
>
> greatly benefit a tyro pilot trying to gain experience to emulate the
>
> top exponents, cheaper and faster than almost any other way.
>
>
>
> IMHO.
>
>
>
> Chris N

[Alexander Georgas[_2_]]

There has been quite a bit of very good advice on this issue. For what
it is worth, having faced a similar decision in the past transitioning
with low hours from club materiel to a private glider (ASW24E in my
case), here is how I see it:

Buy a glider you will be happy to fly. Everybody has their own view of
what this may be, so take the time to form your own opinion. Choosing a
glider is a very personal journey.

A glider, when well-cared for will keep its value, so it will be
realistic to change if you feel after some time that you want something
else. Having said that, it is better to buy what you want now, rather
than move up to it slowly provided it is a suitable choice (i.e. open
class could be tricky as a first glider).

Here are the main points I would like to consider:

You can have incredible fun in a classic wooden glider (and it is good
to remind yourself once in a while by taking a few flights in one), but
if it is cross-country you fancy, going for slick fiber is what you
probably want. Having said that, if you can have access to such glider,
it would be nice to be able to take your first cross-country steps in
one. The confidence one gets with being able to land practically
anywhere with these low-speed low-wing-loading machines is awesome.

When considering old versus new glass, there is some incredible value to
be had in some of the great older models out there (ASW20, LS4, Discus
etc), but you will have to carefully evaluate what you buy. If it is
well maintained and has gel-coat in top condition, do not fear. However,
buying a glider with gel-coat in bad or simply unknown condition could
become a heap of expensive trouble very fast (and would be difficult to
resell at good value).

The good thing with the newer models is that they will usually be more
trouble-free to maintain. It is also the case that most newer models
have a safety cockpit, which to me is a very crucial feature to
consider, as well as other safety-related features such as
self-connecting controls which are harder to find the more back you go.

I would not be fazed by the flaps/non-flaps issue, this is a matter of
style in the models we are discussing (although if flying in areas with
very strong weather it can make a difference). Nor would I obsess over a
few points of L/D. It will probably take quite some time before such
things start making a difference in your performance if at all. For most
of us pilots, what flies the farthest is the glider we feel happiest
flying in.

What could make a difference is the quirkiness of some older models --
although to my knowledge the gliders being discussed here are excellent
in terms of handling. It is typical of newer models (even the hottest
racing machines) in 15 to 18m wingspan that they are a joy and easy to
fly, devoid of strange flight behavior or quirky handling requirements.

What will be different is that they are slippery and much heavier than
what you have been used to flying (even if you have been training in
glass). This means that everything will happen much faster and that
energy management will have to be more precise. There is nothing
inherently difficult or exotic in this. It just takes a few flights to
get used to it, so by all means consider a trip to a site will an
appropriate training fleet as part of your purchase process and take the
time needed to acclimatize to this new environment.

One last thing I have learned the hard way: it is better to invest in
the best trailer you can buy and spend the balance on the glider rather
than the opposite. Your trailer setup will probably have the most
influence on how often you fly, or how far away you dare venture. Make
it a good one.

Have fun and be safe,

Alexander


On 16/10/2013 00:29, Seattle wrote:
> I'm in the market for a standard class or 15 meter flapped ship. This is my first ship, and I doubt I want to deal with 18 m of wings.
>
> An example would be a Discus 2 vs ASW 27. Currently most of my flight goals are simple: get as high up, and far out as possible. Speed is nice, but I'm doubtful I'll be comfortable in a competition for many seasons.
>
> All other things being equal, which is the better type (flapped or non-flapped) for staying up a long time and, eventually, cross country flights?
>
> Thanks!
>

[WAVEGURU]

I think you should fly a 1-26 for a year or two. I hate it when green pilots confuse the level of performance with the level of fun...

[K]

On Tuesday, October 22, 2013 10:09:51 AM UTC-6, Waveguru wrote:
> I hate it when green pilots confuse the level of performance with the level of fun...
WaveG,
Why do you hate this so much? Do you just let it simmer or do you get up into peoples faces? (Kidding!) I think alot of this depends on where a guy is flying. As a newly minted Pilot I loved boating around the coastal mountains of California in a 1-26 and 1-36. There were days during the Winter where 1-26es and hang gliders were the only things that would stay up. In strong desert conditions they were not so much fun. I bought a 20 for my 1st ship and found it very straight forward to fly. There have been pilots on the Yahoo group who have made the transition with as little as 35 hours (Disclaimer; Be VERY diligent about checking yourself out). After 9 seasons I transitioned to a 27 and it is in most respects easier to fly. With all due respect as a loud mouthed ugly American (Kidding again, thats from the hand on the release thread that got out of control) I think we are confusing the OP. Both of the ships he mentioned would be fantastic XC ships for beginners or veterans. I would follow BB's advise and head to Williams for some transition training and see if the 27 suits your ambitions. Lastly, One of my mentors suggested I buy an old beater for my 1st ship in case I damage it. I ignored this and bought a very clean plane and yes, I did have to buff out some scrapes and repaint the bottom of the nose once (Thats what the off season is for). It's just part of soaring and if you are worried about this go fly power.

[waremark]

Is it unusual over there to share gliders? Soon after getting my Silver in a club glider I bought a half share of a Discus shared with an experienced XC pilot. He became a personal mentor and helped me a lot both to progress my XC flying and to learn about glider ownership. I have always enjoyed sharing a glider.

[[email protected]]

Could you not buy a flapped glider and just leave the flaps in their most neutral setting for a year or so - ?

[Mike the Strike]

On Tuesday, May 12, 2015 at 3:32:51 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> Could you not buy a flapped glider and just leave the flaps in their most neutral setting for a year or so - ?

Sure, and you could buy a 5-speed car and drive everywhere in 3rd!

Mike

[BobW]

On 5/12/2015 4:32 PM, wrote:
> Could you not buy a flapped glider and just leave the flaps in their most
> neutral setting for a year or so - ?
>
This question'll likely trigger a small gamut of replies!

Having never owned or flown any high performance single seaters that did NOT
have flaps, here's my take. (Hidden assumption: the question refers to only
performance-enhancing camber-changing flaps, and not to large-deflection
landing flaps. So does my feedback...)

Indeed you could - and with very little loss of performance between the
performance you'll achieve by so doing, and what the ship is theoretically
capable of for a given speed. (Work out some numbers from the Johnson flight
test reports if you don't believe me.) Conceptually, it would be no different
from deciding to not retract retractable landing gear until one became
"sufficiently comfortable" in their new ship. Just because a ship has
features, nothing says Joe Pilot has to operate every feature on the first
flight...or on ANY flight. (Think water ballast, radio, flight computers, tail
parachute...)

That noted, it's been my experience when this issue comes up around the
gliderport that the person asking often has some concern about feeling
"overloaded" or "too busy" or some such to want to "have to fiddle
continuously" with a flap handle. What I've always tried to point out to them
is how they feel on their initial flights will rapidly change as the ship's
newness wears off and they gain familiarity with it. So if a pilot is
otherwise enamored of the concept of camber-changing flaps for whatever their
personal reason(s), my advice has always been to buy whatever flapped ship
they wish, and treat it as an unflapped one until such time as they're
comfortable "messing with" flaps.

Undoubtedly someone will point out that: 1) negative flaps aid low-speed
aileron control (generally true) and that to NOT mess with them on initial
tows is being dangerously irresponsible (an overstatement, IMHO), or some
similar sentiment, and 2) positive landing flaps decrease
stall/potential-touchdown speed (unarguably true).

As for 1), presuming one chooses "sensible weather conditions" for their
first-flight, this is arguably a rather fine point indeed. Against the day you
eventually fly ANY new-to-you single seater, my advice is to work actively on
improving one's wing-leveling skills/ability (many pilots are surprisingly
sloppy in this regard), do a good brief with the tug pilot and wing runner,
and go launch using the configuration with which you're the most comfortable.

Regarding 2) I find it easy to argue either to move the flap handle one time
(during your pre-pattern checklist) to "landing flap" and thereafter to
mentally put that behind you, fly the pattern using spoilers as you would in
an unflapped ship, and land, or alternatively, so simply fly the pattern and
land with 0-flap. The theoretical higher speed will be a non-issue for all
practical purposes, if you've been sensible about all the rest of your
first-flight airfield/weather conditions.

Nuances aside, "messing with flaps" is really something of a minor nit,
compared to everything else mentally a glider pilot must do on every flight.
Stated another way, the theoretical concern will - in hindsight - probably
have loomed MUCH larger than the practical reality. Piloting skill, not flaps,
keeps you in the air.

Have fun ship shopping!

Bob W.

P.S. If you buy a flapped ship, I predict a LOT less than a year will pass
before you're of a mind to begin using the flaps as the designer intended.

[Kevin Neave[_2_]]

What are the pilots around you flying?

If everyone else flies 15m class & you buy standard you'll have to push
really hard to fly with / against them & will land out a lot.

If everybody else flies standard class & you buy 15m class then you won't
be pushing yourself at all, and it's pushing yourself (a little) that will
improve your soaring.

Neither of the above scenarios are good in your early years.
(Or later years for that matter)

And it's in the nature of the sport that you WILL want to fly with /
against the pilots around you.

With any glider from the LS4 to the JS1 the limiting factor is likely to be
you not the aircraft.

Regards

KN

[krasw]

On Wednesday, 16 October 2013 00:29:01 UTC+3, Seattle wrote:
> I'm in the market for a standard class or 15 meter flapped ship. This is my first ship, and I doubt I want to deal with 18 m of wings.
>
> An example would be a Discus 2 vs ASW 27. Currently most of my flight goals are simple: get as high up, and far out as possible. Speed is nice, but I'm doubtful I'll be comfortable in a competition for many seasons.
>
> All other things being equal, which is the better type (flapped or non-flapped) for staying up a long time and, eventually, cross country flights?
>
> Thanks!

Buy Discus-2T (or Ventus2CT) with decent trailer. You will find that having that little engine gives you twice the amount of really nice cross-country flights annually. Flaps or not is insignificant. All modern gliders are nice and safe to fly.

[Mike the Strike]

On Wednesday, May 13, 2015 at 12:30:04 AM UTC-7, Kevin Neave wrote:
> What are the pilots around you flying?
>
> If everyone else flies 15m class & you buy standard you'll have to push
> really hard to fly with / against them & will land out a lot.
>
> If everybody else flies standard class & you buy 15m class then you won't
> be pushing yourself at all, and it's pushing yourself (a little) that will
> improve your soaring.
>
> Neither of the above scenarios are good in your early years.
> (Or later years for that matter)
>
> And it's in the nature of the sport that you WILL want to fly with /
> against the pilots around you.
>
> With any glider from the LS4 to the JS1 the limiting factor is likely to be
> you not the aircraft.
>
> Regards
>
> KN

The performance difference between a modern standard class and 15 m is not that great - at least here in the strong conditions of the US Southwest. Two pilots we all try to keep up with fly a Discus 2 and an LS-8.

Mike

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, October 20, 2013 at 11:56:30 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> Excellent!
>
> Thanks so much for the wisdom. They should make this post a "sticky" or something for folks buying a first-time XC glider.
>
> I do have time in our glass ship the PW-6 (two seat version of "world class" PW-5). And I LOVE it. I was hoping to get checked out in our PW-5 before the season ends, but that may not happen due to old man winter stealing our fun.
>
> However, I'll be spending a week in Estrella in November just flying everything they will let me.
>
> Also, a big reason for wanting my own ship is so I *can* take it to places like Ephrata, Wanatchee, and Northern Cali.
>
> I'll update as I go through the purchase process...

Please! Give as much thought to automatic hookups and the type of trailer that will come with the ship. I good trailer will help with the assembly and give you more time to focus on having things really checked out before each flight. It will make cross country more enjoyable because it will bother you less with considering whether or not to fly on certain days. Automatic hook up of the controls will take some stress out of the equation. A good trailer is a big part of the equation not to be dismissed. In my opinion, as much of a determinat as that of flaps or no flaps.