Nose release for a Ventus B

[dcavagnaro%[email protected]]

Even though my manual refers to both a nose and CG release, my Ventus only came with a CG. I am thinking of having a E85 TOST release installed for safer towing. Has anyone added a nose release to a previously CG release glider?

Dennis

[Bob Gibbons[_2_]]

On Mon, 28 Oct 2013 16:57:24 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

>Even though my manual refers to both a nose and CG release, my Ventus only came with a CG.
>>I am thinking of having a E85 TOST release installed for safer towing. Has anyone added a nose
>>release to a previously CG release glider?
>
>Dennis

Are you aware of the Tech Note on the Schempp-Hirth web site?
Technical note no. 349-3, "Retrofit of a nose release"
http://www.schempp-hirth.com/index.php?id=30&L=1

Bob

[HGXC]

On Monday, October 28, 2013 9:06:58 PM UTC-4, Bob Gibbons wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Oct 2013 16:57:24 -0700 (PDT), Even though my manual refers to both a nose and CG release, my Ventus only came with a CG. >>I am thinking of having a E85 TOST release installed for safer towing. Has anyone added a nose >>release to a previously CG release glider? > >Dennis Are you aware of the Tech Note on the Schempp-Hirth web site? Technical note no. 349-3, "Retrofit of a nose release" http://www.schempp-hirth.com/index.php?id=30&L=1 Bob

This was helpfull Thanks! My mechanic is asking me a few questions...

" Is the fiberglass bulkhead (that the release mechanism bolts to) already installed in your glider, does it come with an installation kit, or will I have to fabricate one? Does your glider already have the opening in the nose with the interior tube and pitot tube, does it come with an installation kit, or will I have to fabricate one? Does the mechanism come by itself, or in a kit with all the hardware, release cables, etc.?"

I know it has the opening in the nose (there is a vent in there now)I am not sure about the bulkhead.

Dennis

[StaPo]

if your mechanic is asking such questions,
he/she is probably not very familiar with S-H company functioning system.
There is no problem to get full kit of parts necessary to install such additional equipment, if official SB/TN exists for it (and this is the case). Pls specify your S/N and expect delivery time 3+ weeks and price 1000+ E from nearest S-H dealer (release TOST mechanism not included). I am just considering the same for my Ventus...

[son_of_flubber]

I heartily applaud anyone that adds a nose hook to their glider. Smart move.

So many have told me that "real pilots aerotow with C.G. hooks". Why not make your glider inherently less prone to a whole class of launch accidents? The modification benefits you and all future users of your glider.

Sure you can "fly the glider", but you can also make a mistake one day.

[Evan Ludeman[_4_]]

On Tuesday, October 29, 2013 8:54:33 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> I heartily applaud anyone that adds a nose hook to their glider. Smart move.
>
>
>
> So many have told me that "real pilots aerotow with C.G. hooks". Why not make your glider inherently less prone to a whole class of launch accidents? The modification benefits you and all future users of your glider.
>
>
>
> Sure you can "fly the glider", but you can also make a mistake one day.

Give us a list of all the gliders you've aero-towed on CG hooks. Or just admit that you made this up.

My view: in many cases there are much better things to spend your money on. A case in point would be an ASW-20. Quite delightfully stable and easy to fly on tow on the CG hook, with no tow induced pitch trim to speak of. You would be silly to dump money into a nose hook on an 20A model in favor of the automatic hook up elevator modification (expensive, but a life saver)..

I think it can be objectively stated as fact: a nose hook will not cover your mistakes. The last fatal accident I recall in the US involving an out of control glider on aero tow involved a nose hook (only) equipped Schweizer..

What a nose hook does for you on a modern high performance single place: it buys you a small amount of yaw stability during the acceleration phase of an aero tow. This is especially helpful if there are more that one of the following in play

* water ballast
* cross wind over 10 kts
* no wing runner (best not to combine with other factors)
* high density altitude
* poor tow plane performance

I have no opinion on the OP's Ventus as I have no time in type.

Evan Ludeman / T8

[kirk.stant]

On Tuesday, October 29, 2013 7:54:33 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
> I heartily applaud anyone that adds a nose hook to their glider. Smart move.
>
>
>
> So many have told me that "real pilots aerotow with C.G. hooks". Why not make your glider inherently less prone to a whole class of launch accidents? The modification benefits you and all future users of your glider.
>
>
>
> Sure you can "fly the glider", but you can also make a mistake one day.

Well you could also remove the CG hook (and nose hook if installed) and make the glider totally immune to all launch accidents ;^)

Seriously, towing in a Ventus B with a CG hook is not a big deal. If you have the spare change, sure, go for it, but a Flarm or transponder would be a better use of the cash, if there is a choice.

Or get winglets - which really make a difference in how the B handles!

Kirk
66
(uneventful CG tows in Ventus B, Std Cirrus, LS4, ASW-20, Speed Astir, and LS6)

[son_of_flubber]

On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 10:46:20 AM UTC-4, Evan Ludeman wrote:

> Give us a list of all the gliders you've aero-towed on CG hooks. Or just admit that you made this up.

I apologize for coming off as a smartass about what experienced pilots have told me about C.G. hooks. I'm grateful that people share their experience on RAS.

My understanding is that CS-22 (aka JAR 22) requires nose hooks in all new gliders. That is the primary foundation for my enthusiastic support of nose hook retrofitters.

The CS-22 requirement is based on experience with older gliders that do not have nose hooks. So a reasonably-priced retrofit seems logical. I can buy that a nose hook retrofit may be of marginal value for an expert pilot. By the same token, I'd guess that it has the highest value for a non-expert or transitioning pilot.

[[email protected]]

The biggest problem I've seen with cg hooks is in combination with tail skids on early gliders, like our ex club mini nimbus. With a good tail wheel, you get a lot of crosswind directional stability in the early part of takeoff roll.

You won't ground loop on takeoff until a wing goes down and starts dragging.. The nose hook is only useful if you plan to leave the wing down, dragging away, hoping to pick it up, and rudder isn't enough to keep the glider straight. Releasing might be a better plan -- and now it doesn't matter where the hook is.

On modern gliders, I can't see how uncommanded kiting is a problem on airtows. Lots of elevator authority, c.g. or not. The extra pitch up moment from the cg hook is -- except for unbelievably rare circumstances (Robertson crash) -- plenty

John Cochrane

[JS]

From my experience primarily in LS4s and LS6s with and without, the most noticeable difference with the Tost release in the nose air vent is the lack of ventilation.
Jim

[son_of_flubber]

On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 6:44:21 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> The biggest problem I've seen with cg hooks is in combination with tail skids on early gliders, like our ex club mini nimbus. With a good tail wheel, you get a lot of crosswind directional stability in the early part of takeoff roll.

So last Spring I watched from directly behind as a pilot on his first flight with his new-to-him CG-only hooked glider, yaw and then, balanced on the main wheel only, get dragged sideways by the tow rope while simultaneously tracking on the wheel further to the side (and that made the angle worse). The wing did not drag and he straightened it out. This all happened rather fast. So did this launch only look edgy?

[Dan Marotta]

I wonder... Why aren't nose hooks standard equipment?

I find the CG hook to be more useful since I can use it for either ground or
aero tow. Why should I have two releases with the added complexity,
maintenance, and expense? Four of the five gliders I've owned have a CG
hook only and I've never had a launch accident. Not worried about one,
either.

So, are those of us who don't have nose hooks not smart since we don't run
out and install nose hooks?


"son_of_flubber" > wrote in message
...
>I heartily applaud anyone that adds a nose hook to their glider. Smart
>move.
>
> So many have told me that "real pilots aerotow with C.G. hooks". Why not
> make your glider inherently less prone to a whole class of launch
> accidents? The modification benefits you and all future users of your
> glider.
>
> Sure you can "fly the glider", but you can also make a mistake one day.

[Dan Marotta]

Well... I *did* watch a Nimbus II pitch up to the vertical and then
cartwheel just as the tow plane was lifting off, but I don't attribute that
to the CG release. That was the pilot over controlling. He also crashed a
G-103 with a paying passenger on board and that was using a nose hook.

I won't mention any names...


> wrote in message
...
The biggest problem I've seen with cg hooks is in combination with tail
skids on early gliders, like our ex club mini nimbus. With a good tail
wheel, you get a lot of crosswind directional stability in the early part of
takeoff roll.

You won't ground loop on takeoff until a wing goes down and starts dragging.
The nose hook is only useful if you plan to leave the wing down, dragging
away, hoping to pick it up, and rudder isn't enough to keep the glider
straight. Releasing might be a better plan -- and now it doesn't matter
where the hook is.

On modern gliders, I can't see how uncommanded kiting is a problem on
airtows. Lots of elevator authority, c.g. or not. The extra pitch up moment
from the cg hook is -- except for unbelievably rare circumstances (Robertson
crash) -- plenty

John Cochrane

[dcavagnaro%[email protected]]

On Monday, October 28, 2013 7:57:24 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> Even though my manual refers to both a nose and CG release, my Ventus only came with a CG. I am thinking of having a E85 TOST release installed for safer towing. Has anyone added a nose release to a previously CG release glider?
>
>
>
> Dennis

I appreciate every ones advice. I have tons of years on Hang Gliders but relatively new to Sailplanes. I am waiting to see what the cost for the kit is before I decide but unless its reasonable I am leaning against the change.

[son_of_flubber]

On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 7:55:41 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> I wonder... Why aren't nose hooks standard equipment?

My understanding is that CS-22 (aka JAR 22) requires nose hooks in all new gliders.

[son_of_flubber]

On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 7:55:41 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> I wonder... Why aren't nose hooks standard equipment?

My understanding is that CS-22 (aka JAR-21) requires nose hooks in all new gliders.

[Evan Ludeman[_4_]]

On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 7:39:37 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 6:44:21 PM UTC-4, wrote:
>
> > The biggest problem I've seen with cg hooks is in combination with tail skids on early gliders, like our ex club mini nimbus. With a good tail wheel, you get a lot of crosswind directional stability in the early part of takeoff roll.
>
>
>
> So last Spring I watched from directly behind as a pilot on his first flight with his new-to-him CG-only hooked glider, yaw and then, balanced on the main wheel only, get dragged sideways by the tow rope while simultaneously tracking on the wheel further to the side (and that made the angle worse).. The wing did not drag and he straightened it out. This all happened rather fast. So did this launch only look edgy?

If it looked exciting, it probably was.

Otoh, the fact that he managed to get it sorted out suggests that "dragged sideways" is over stating things a bit.

Some early 70's gliders have a poor reputation for launching. Tail skids, off center tow hooks, small rudder...

Most late 70s and newer gliders tow fine on CG hooks, but you do have to steer. It's not difficult, but it needs to be covered in the transition to type brief. I'm going to guess that your example pilot wasn't minding the store simply because he didn't know he had to.

Evan Ludeman / T8

[kirk.stant]

On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 8:34:34 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 7:55:41 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
>
> > I wonder... Why aren't nose hooks standard equipment?
>
>
>
> My understanding is that CS-22 (aka JAR-21) requires nose hooks in all new gliders.

I believe you are correct; also, some countries (Australia, for one) require nose hooks for aerotows. So despite our macho posturing (mea culpa!) nose hooks really are a better, statistically safer setup for aerotows. So yeah, if the mod is affordable - go for it, especially if you are new to the sport and a bit concerned about it. just don't think a CG hook makes every launch an adventure - if you understand the forces involved, and plan & fly accordingly, CG hooks are no big deal.

My original point (lost in the bs) was that if there is a choice, I would go for upgrades that enhance areas of safety that I can't control directly via skill - FLARM of a transponder, for example. And in the specific case of the Ventus B, GET WINGLETS - huge improvement in handling qualities!

Kirk
66

[Frank Whiteley]

On Thursday, October 31, 2013 5:03:09 AM UTC-6, Evan Ludeman wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 7:39:37 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
>
> > On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 6:44:21 PM UTC-4, wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > The biggest problem I've seen with cg hooks is in combination with tail skids on early gliders, like our ex club mini nimbus. With a good tail wheel, you get a lot of crosswind directional stability in the early part of takeoff roll.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > So last Spring I watched from directly behind as a pilot on his first flight with his new-to-him CG-only hooked glider, yaw and then, balanced on the main wheel only, get dragged sideways by the tow rope while simultaneously tracking on the wheel further to the side (and that made the angle worse). The wing did not drag and he straightened it out. This all happened rather fast. So did this launch only look edgy?
>
>
>
> If it looked exciting, it probably was.
>
>
>
> Otoh, the fact that he managed to get it sorted out suggests that "dragged sideways" is over stating things a bit.
>
>
>
> Some early 70's gliders have a poor reputation for launching. Tail skids, off center tow hooks, small rudder...
>
>
>
> Most late 70s and newer gliders tow fine on CG hooks, but you do have to steer. It's not difficult, but it needs to be covered in the transition to type brief. I'm going to guess that your example pilot wasn't minding the store simply because he didn't know he had to.
>
>
>
> Evan Ludeman / T8

I've seen a few gliders (as T8 describes) out west retro-fitted with Applebay nose (under nose actually) hooks, which retract flush after release. Similar in design to the Schreder releases. Rather cheaper to install than TOST options, if available.

Frank Whiteley

[HGXC[_2_]]

I do have the masak winglets.

Dennis





On Thursday, October 31, 2013 8:53:57 AM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 8:34:34 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
>
> > On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 7:55:41 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > I wonder... Why aren't nose hooks standard equipment?
>
> >
>
> >


>
> >
>
> > My understanding is that CS-22 (aka JAR-21) requires nose hooks in all new gliders.
>
>
>
> I believe you are correct; also, some countries (Australia, for one) require nose hooks for aerotows. So despite our macho posturing (mea culpa!) nose hooks really are a better, statistically safer setup for aerotows. So yeah, if the mod is affordable - go for it, especially if you are new to the sport and a bit concerned about it. just don't think a CG hook makes every launch an adventure - if you understand the forces involved, and plan & fly accordingly, CG hooks are no big deal.
>
>
>
> My original point (lost in the bs) was that if there is a choice, I would go for upgrades that enhance areas of safety that I can't control directly via skill - FLARM of a transponder, for example. And in the specific case of the Ventus B, GET WINGLETS - huge improvement in handling qualities!
>
>
>
> Kirk
>
> 66

[SF]

The additional moment arm provided by a nose hook vs. a CG hook is minimal unless the glider is very far out of position. If the glider is this far out of position on the ground, the release should have been pulled long before the additional moment arm started helping out in a significant way. Properly piloted, there is no difficulty managing the gliders I have flown using CG hooks for aerotow (Open Cirrus, GROB 103 ACRO, LS6, ASW27). Improperly piloted either one can give you a bad result. If you have some hesitancy about aerotow on a CG hook, your money would probably be better spent with an instructor to get your skill and confidence level up to the point that you were no longer concerned about this.

SF

[Dan Marotta]

> ><snip> I've seen a few gliders (as T8 describes) out west retro-fitted
> >with Applebay nose (under nose actually) hooks, which retract flush after
> >release. Similar in design to the Schreder releases. Rather cheaper to
> >install than TOST options, if available.

Frank Whiteley
<snip>

I don't think George's release mechanism is certified and is only
retrofittable to experimental gliders. I was discussing this very subject
yesterday with a friend who has an Applebay release mounted about 18-24
inches aft of the nose of his Mini Nimbus. He's very happy with it and, I
must say, it looks good and is much lower drag than a similarly located Tost
release.

[JOrton]

One problem I have come across with the nose release on some Schempp Hirth gliders is that during the aerotow the tow rope masks the Pitot tube just above the release and ASI does not read correctly, if at all. As long as the glider is responding to the controls all is well. It makes me nervous after flying other types which show airspeed when on tow.

[GC[_2_]]

On 31/10/2013 01:46, Evan Ludeman wrote:

> My view: in many cases there are much better things to spend your
> money on. A case in point would be an ASW-20. Quite delightfully
> stable and easy to fly on tow on the CG hook, with no tow induced
> pitch trim to speak of. You would be silly to dump money into a nose
> hook on an 20A model in favor of the automatic hook up elevator
> modification (expensive, but a life saver).
......
> Evan Ludeman / T8

Nose hooks are compulsory in Australia.

Shortly after I got my 20, I asked a fellow owner if he got the same
loud drumming vibration (coming from under my legs) that I did around
70kts and above. He said "No."

I asked what he thought might cause it. He said "It's the cavity behind
the nose hook opening resonating. I asked why he didn't have the noise.
He said "Because I taped up the nose hook opening. If I use the nose
hook it causes an annoying resonance above about 70 knots. I launch on
the CG hook."

GC