Gelcoat care

[Nick Kennedy]

What is the best way to prolong gelcoat life?

I have a friend that says that waxing, polishing is only good for the
pilot, does almost nothing for the gelcoat.

I really don't know much about this issue.
Would it make sense to cut a bit off like .002 every once in a while to
stop/prevent any crazing? Then wax it?

Does Gelcoat off gas over time and then start going bad?

Seeing how very little time most ships are out in the sun, a lot of them
look rough. Sailboats sit outside 24/7 and can look good for many years.
Whats up? Should I be parking my LS3a in a Marina?

Do nothing or try and work on the gelcoat to attempt to get the longest
life out of it; or something in between?

If Gelcoat does off gas, and kind of dries out and cracks,would it make
sense during the winter lay up to cover the gelcoat with a coat of wax, to
seal it, and then buff it off come spring?

[John Galloway[_1_]]

Here is a good technical article. The two component process
mentioned in the article refers the Wx Seal and Wx Block.

http://www.wingsandwheels.com/Weather%20Block%20Tech.h
tm

John Galloway

At 13:32 30 October 2013, Nick Kennedy wrote:
>What is the best way to prolong gelcoat life?
>
>I have a friend that says that waxing, polishing is only good
for th
>pilot, does almost nothing for the gelcoat.
>
>I really don't know much about this issue.
>Would it make sense to cut a bit off like .002 every once in a
while t
>stop/prevent any crazing? Then wax it?
>
>Does Gelcoat off gas over time and then start going bad?
>
>Seeing how very little time most ships are out in the sun, a lot
of the
>look rough. Sailboats sit outside 24/7 and can look good for
many years
>Whats up? Should I be parking my LS3a in a Marina?
>
>Do nothing or try and work on the gelcoat to attempt to get
the longes
>life out of it; or something in between?
>
>If Gelcoat does off gas, and kind of dries out and
cracks,would it mak
>sense during the winter lay up to cover the gelcoat with a coat
of wax, t
>seal it, and then buff it off come spring?
>
>

[Soartech]

On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 10:20:11 AM UTC-4, John Galloway wrote:
> Here is a good technical article. The two component process
>
> mentioned in the article refers the Wx Seal and Wx Block.
>
>
>
> http://www.wingsandwheels.com/Weather%20Block%20Tech.h
>
I have read testimony from other pilots here that this stuff works but this
still does not explain why (massive) fiberglass boats, which probably never get
waxed, don't crack. Is it because they don't flex?
I have a friend with an old ASW-19 in which the wings are really crazed but
the fuselage is not.

[Nick Kennedy]

Searching the archives I found a long 2003 RAS thread about Gelcoat. It was
a good discussion involving several top people.
What I got out of it was, there is not much a owner can do about Gelcoat
life. Some real experts advise not to wax as it may keep any water vapor [
? ] trapped in the Gelcoat and that could cause problems. They say you
want it to be able to breathe to some extent.
Other experts swear waxing is good for the surface and waxing will
discourage yellowing and fading.
Why sailboats look good after many years seem to come from the fact that
when they come out of the mold they are not worked on further, the
Gelcoat surface is left intact, while gliders come out of the molds and
there is a lot of work to be done to them, aggressive sanding to the
Gelcoat seems to open minute cracks that can propagate, it seems, says the
experts.
Me? I'm going to continue to wax. Makes me feel good. I like the smell.
Makes me feel like I'm trying to make a effort to keep the refinish man
away for as long as possible.
>

[Craig Funston[_2_]]

On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 10:59:24 AM UTC-7, dogger wrote:
> Searching the archives I found a long 2003 RAS thread about Gelcoat. It was
>
> a good discussion involving several top people.
>
> What I got out of it was, there is not much a owner can do about Gelcoat
>
> life. Some real experts advise not to wax as it may keep any water vapor [
>
> ? ] trapped in the Gelcoat and that could cause problems. They say you
>
> want it to be able to breathe to some extent.
>
> Other experts swear waxing is good for the surface and waxing will
>
> discourage yellowing and fading.
>
> Why sailboats look good after many years seem to come from the fact that
>
> when they come out of the mold they are not worked on further, the
>
> Gelcoat surface is left intact, while gliders come out of the molds and
>
> there is a lot of work to be done to them, aggressive sanding to the
>
> Gelcoat seems to open minute cracks that can propagate, it seems, says the
>
> experts.
>
> Me? I'm going to continue to wax. Makes me feel good. I like the smell.
>
> Makes me feel like I'm trying to make a effort to keep the refinish man
>
> away for as long as possible.
>
> >

Boats survive better in harsher conditions because they use better gelcoat than the German sailplanes do. This has mostly to do with certification requirements for anything "new". Tends to reduce innovation in that area. It's such a pity to pay top dollar for new glider with a finish that we all know won't last more than 15 years.
Craig

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 3:45:26 PM UTC-5, Craig Funston wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 10:59:24 AM UTC-7, dogger wrote:
>
> > Searching the archives I found a long 2003 RAS thread about Gelcoat. It was
>
> >
>
> > a good discussion involving several top people.
>
> >
>
> > What I got out of it was, there is not much a owner can do about Gelcoat
>
> >
>
> > life. Some real experts advise not to wax as it may keep any water vapor [
>
> >
>
> > ? ] trapped in the Gelcoat and that could cause problems. They say you
>
> >
>
> > want it to be able to breathe to some extent.
>
> >
>
> > Other experts swear waxing is good for the surface and waxing will
>
> >
>
> > discourage yellowing and fading.
>
> >
>
> > Why sailboats look good after many years seem to come from the fact that
>
> >
>
> > when they come out of the mold they are not worked on further, the
>
> >
>
> > Gelcoat surface is left intact, while gliders come out of the molds and
>
> >
>
> > there is a lot of work to be done to them, aggressive sanding to the
>
> >
>
> > Gelcoat seems to open minute cracks that can propagate, it seems, says the
>
> >
>
> > experts.
>
> >
>
> > Me? I'm going to continue to wax. Makes me feel good. I like the smell..
>
> >
>
> > Makes me feel like I'm trying to make a effort to keep the refinish man
>
> >
>
> > away for as long as possible.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
>
>
> Boats survive better in harsher conditions because they use better gelcoat than the German sailplanes do. This has mostly to do with certification requirements for anything "new". Tends to reduce innovation in that area. It's such a pity to pay top dollar for new glider with a finish that we all know won't last more than 15 years.
>
> Craig

I suggest the difference to boats is due to the structural differences between the two. Boats use polyester based resins as the matrix between the glass fibers, all glider structure is based on an epoxy resins. Gel-coat is a polyester resin that seems to like the same as a base over which it is applied. Bonding between epoxy and polyester polymers is more difficult because of the chemical and physical(expansion coefficient?) differences.

[HGXC[_2_]]

On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 4:45:26 PM UTC-4, Craig Funston wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 10:59:24 AM UTC-7, dogger wrote:
>
> > Searching the archives I found a long 2003 RAS thread about Gelcoat. It was
>
> >
>
> > a good discussion involving several top people.
>
> >
>
> > What I got out of it was, there is not much a owner can do about Gelcoat
>
> >
>
> > life. Some real experts advise not to wax as it may keep any water vapor [
>
> >
>
> > ? ] trapped in the Gelcoat and that could cause problems. They say you
>
> >
>
> > want it to be able to breathe to some extent.
>
> >
>
> > Other experts swear waxing is good for the surface and waxing will
>
> >
>
> > discourage yellowing and fading.
>
> >
>
> > Why sailboats look good after many years seem to come from the fact that
>
> >
>
> > when they come out of the mold they are not worked on further, the
>
> >
>
> > Gelcoat surface is left intact, while gliders come out of the molds and
>
> >
>
> > there is a lot of work to be done to them, aggressive sanding to the
>
> >
>
> > Gelcoat seems to open minute cracks that can propagate, it seems, says the
>
> >
>
> > experts.
>
> >
>
> > Me? I'm going to continue to wax. Makes me feel good. I like the smell..
>
> >
>
> > Makes me feel like I'm trying to make a effort to keep the refinish man
>
> >
>
> > away for as long as possible.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
>
>
> Boats survive better in harsher conditions because they use better gelcoat than the German sailplanes do. This has mostly to do with certification requirements for anything "new". Tends to reduce innovation in that area. It's such a pity to pay top dollar for new glider with a finish that we all know won't last more than 15 years.
>
> Craig

15 years? I know of many gliders that look great after 30. I own one! I think the answer has more to do with the weight and finish. BTW I see many boats with gelcoat that would make a glider owner cry but on a boat it not a big deal. Not many boat owners stare down and whip every inch of their hulls every time they use them.

[Jonathon May]

At 21:03 30 October 2013, wrote:
>On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 3:45:26 PM UTC-5, Craig Funston wrote:
>> On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 10:59:24 AM UTC-7, dogger wrote:
>>=20
>> > Searching the archives I found a long 2003 RAS thread about Gelcoat.
>It=
> was
>>=20
>> >=20
>>=20
>> > a good discussion involving several top people.
>>=20
>> >=20
>>=20
>> > What I got out of it was, there is not much a owner can do about
>Gelcoa=
>t
>>=20
>> >=20
>>=20
>> > life. Some real experts advise not to wax as it may keep any water
>vapo=
>r [
>>=20
>> >=20
>>=20
>> > ? ] trapped in the Gelcoat and that could cause problems. They say
you
>>=20
>> >=20
>>=20
>> > want it to be able to breathe to some extent.
>>=20
>> >=20
>>=20
>> > Other experts swear waxing is good for the surface and waxing will
>>=20
>> >=20
>>=20
>> > discourage yellowing and fading.
>>=20
>> >=20
>>=20
>> > Why sailboats look good after many years seem to come from the fact
>tha=
>t
>>=20
>> >=20
>>=20
>> > when they come out of the mold they are not worked on further, the
>>=20
>> >=20
>>=20
>> > Gelcoat surface is left intact, while gliders come out of the molds
and
>>=20
>> >=20
>>=20
>> > there is a lot of work to be done to them, aggressive sanding to the
>>=20
>> >=20
>>=20
>> > Gelcoat seems to open minute cracks that can propagate, it seems,
says
>=
>the
>>=20
>> >=20
>>=20
>> > experts.
>>=20
>> >=20
>>=20
>> > Me? I'm going to continue to wax. Makes me feel good. I like the
>smell=
>..
>>=20
>> >=20
>>=20
>> > Makes me feel like I'm trying to make a effort to keep the refinish
>ma=
>n
>>=20
>> >=20
>>=20
>> > away for as long as possible.
>>=20
>> >=20
>>=20
>> > >
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Boats survive better in harsher conditions because they use better
>gelcoa=
>t than the German sailplanes do. This has mostly to do with
certification
>=
>requirements for anything "new". Tends to reduce innovation in that
area.
>=
> It's such a pity to pay top dollar for new glider with a finish that we
>al=
>l know won't last more than 15 years.
>>=20
>> Craig
>
>I suggest the difference to boats is due to the structural differences
>betw=
>een the two. Boats use polyester based resins as the matrix between the
>gl=
>ass fibers, all glider structure is based on an epoxy resins. Gel-coat
is
>=
>a polyester resin that seems to like the same as a base over which it is
>ap=
>plied. Bonding between epoxy and polyester polymers is more difficult
>beca=
>use of the chemical and physical(expansion coefficient?) differences.
>

The initial problem is resin shrinkage ,which leaves the mat proud ,so you

either sand the gell down or fill the hollows with wax
I heard the top European pilots were having there asg29's back to the works

after 2 seasons to maintain the Finnish
I used to hard wax but my current ship were had painted new .

[akiley]

I though researched showed that waxing was not especially good for the performance of the wing. I recall testing associated with deturbulator tape, included findings of a wing surface sheen effecting performance. Various means of removing some of the sheen increased performance. Anyone??

.... Aaron

[mike]

On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 7:32:14 AM UTC-6, dogger wrote:
> What is the best way to prolong gelcoat life?
>
>
>
> I have a friend that says that waxing, polishing is only good for the
>
> pilot, does almost nothing for the gelcoat.
>
>
>
> I really don't know much about this issue.
>
> Would it make sense to cut a bit off like .002 every once in a while to
>
> stop/prevent any crazing? Then wax it?
>
>
>
> Does Gelcoat off gas over time and then start going bad?
>
>
>
> Seeing how very little time most ships are out in the sun, a lot of them
>
> look rough. Sailboats sit outside 24/7 and can look good for many years.
>
> Whats up? Should I be parking my LS3a in a Marina?
>
>
>
> Do nothing or try and work on the gelcoat to attempt to get the longest
>
> life out of it; or something in between?
>
>
>
> If Gelcoat does off gas, and kind of dries out and cracks,would it make
>
> sense during the winter lay up to cover the gelcoat with a coat of wax, to
>
> seal it, and then buff it off come spring?



I painted a sailplane several years ago and did a fair amount or research before actually applying the paint. My paint guys told me that sanding the finish actually allows for a more rapid (UV) degradation of the surface as the resin the encapsulates the pigment has been compromised. Waxing does slow the process down. I think that this would also apply to Gelcoat. The more completely a wax would seal the sanded surfaces would be more beneficial, and wax using nano technology such as WX Seal and Block would be closer to the ideal. Other waxes also are now advertising Nano technology. Whether or not they are as effective as the WX products may be open to discussion.

[Ramy]

On Thursday, October 31, 2013 7:14:33 AM UTC-7, mike wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 7:32:14 AM UTC-6, dogger wrote:
>
> > What is the best way to prolong gelcoat life?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I have a friend that says that waxing, polishing is only good for the
>
> >
>
> > pilot, does almost nothing for the gelcoat.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I really don't know much about this issue.
>
> >
>
> > Would it make sense to cut a bit off like .002 every once in a while to
>
> >
>
> > stop/prevent any crazing? Then wax it?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Does Gelcoat off gas over time and then start going bad?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Seeing how very little time most ships are out in the sun, a lot of them
>
> >
>
> > look rough. Sailboats sit outside 24/7 and can look good for many years..
>
> >
>
> > Whats up? Should I be parking my LS3a in a Marina?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Do nothing or try and work on the gelcoat to attempt to get the longest
>
> >
>
> > life out of it; or something in between?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > If Gelcoat does off gas, and kind of dries out and cracks,would it make
>
> >
>
> > sense during the winter lay up to cover the gelcoat with a coat of wax, to
>
> >
>
> > seal it, and then buff it off come spring?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I painted a sailplane several years ago and did a fair amount or research before actually applying the paint. My paint guys told me that sanding the finish actually allows for a more rapid (UV) degradation of the surface as the resin the encapsulates the pigment has been compromised. Waxing does slow the process down. I think that this would also apply to Gelcoat. The more completely a wax would seal the sanded surfaces would be more beneficial, and wax using nano technology such as WX Seal and Block would be closer to the ideal. Other waxes also are now advertising Nano technology. Whether or not they are as effective as the WX products may be open to discussion.

No one mentioned trailer solar vent so far? How effective are they? They only cost something like $200 so I must wonder if they are effective why they are not provided with every trailer. I added one to mine but it keeps breaking down every 1-2 years and I wonder if I should even bother replacing it again.

Ramy

[son_of_flubber]

On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 9:32:14 AM UTC-4, dogger wrote:
> Sailboats sit outside 24/7 and can look good for many years.
>
> Whats up?

Sailboats don't fly in mountain wave.

I heard that the rapid temperature changes of wave flights are tough on gel coat.

I heard that Germany is the place to buy a used glider with a good gel coat. Maybe it has something to do with Germany's high latitude and cloudy weather.

[Surge]

On Wednesday, 30 October 2013 23:14:12 UTC+2, HGXC wrote:
> Not many boat owners stare down and whip every inch of their hulls every time they use them.

I don't know if any glider pilots who whip every inch of their gliders before use either.

[Dan Marotta]

Instead of a solar vent, I installed two vents, one low in the front of the
trailer and one high on the doghouse. Each had louvers to keep out rain and
screen to keep out bugs. When the temperature warms up, circulation begins.
Worked for me for many years and I probably spent under $10 for everything.
Aluminum Cobra, LS-6a, no gel coat crazing.


"Ramy" > wrote in message
...
On Thursday, October 31, 2013 7:14:33 AM UTC-7, mike wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 7:32:14 AM UTC-6, dogger wrote:
>
> > What is the best way to prolong gelcoat life?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I have a friend that says that waxing, polishing is only good for the
>
> >
>
> > pilot, does almost nothing for the gelcoat.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I really don't know much about this issue.
>
> >
>
> > Would it make sense to cut a bit off like .002 every once in a while to
>
> >
>
> > stop/prevent any crazing? Then wax it?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Does Gelcoat off gas over time and then start going bad?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Seeing how very little time most ships are out in the sun, a lot of them
>
> >
>
> > look rough. Sailboats sit outside 24/7 and can look good for many years.
>
> >
>
> > Whats up? Should I be parking my LS3a in a Marina?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Do nothing or try and work on the gelcoat to attempt to get the longest
>
> >
>
> > life out of it; or something in between?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > If Gelcoat does off gas, and kind of dries out and cracks,would it make
>
> >
>
> > sense during the winter lay up to cover the gelcoat with a coat of wax,
> > to
>
> >
>
> > seal it, and then buff it off come spring?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I painted a sailplane several years ago and did a fair amount or research
> before actually applying the paint. My paint guys told me that sanding the
> finish actually allows for a more rapid (UV) degradation of the surface as
> the resin the encapsulates the pigment has been compromised. Waxing does
> slow the process down. I think that this would also apply to Gelcoat. The
> more completely a wax would seal the sanded surfaces would be more
> beneficial, and wax using nano technology such as WX Seal and Block would
> be closer to the ideal. Other waxes also are now advertising Nano
> technology. Whether or not they are as effective as the WX products may be
> open to discussion.

No one mentioned trailer solar vent so far? How effective are they? They
only cost something like $200 so I must wonder if they are effective why
they are not provided with every trailer. I added one to mine but it keeps
breaking down every 1-2 years and I wonder if I should even bother replacing
it again.

Ramy

[K]

On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 7:32:14 AM UTC-6, dogger wrote:
> What is the best way to prolong gelcoat life?
>
>
>
> I have a friend that says that waxing, polishing is only good for the
>
> pilot, does almost nothing for the gelcoat.
Who ever told you this is on drugs. Although, I notice the skin on my hands is nice and soft after a wax job. I have a family member who will pay 8K to repaint an 9 YO oxidized Infinity because he doesn't believe in car care products but he cannot explain how my 20 YO Mustang (Which gets waxed regularly) still has original paint which looks new. My 77 vintage glider was the same way. Original finish and it looked great. I waxed the entire ship in the off season and then I would do the upper surfaces twice during the season. I have attended product webonars and spoke with product support people at Simtec Dupont and others and they all say the same thing. If you want your stuff to look good and last, it has to be taken care of.

[Ramy]

I can't think of any reliable convincing way to prove that waxing helps, other than always waxing only one wing and comparing after 15-20 years. Otherwise you don't compare apples to apples.

Ramy

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 12:49:15 PM UTC-4, Soartech wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 10:20:11 AM UTC-4, John Galloway wrote:
>
> > Here is a good technical article. The two component process
>
> >
>
> > mentioned in the article refers the Wx Seal and Wx Block.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > http://www.wingsandwheels.com/Weather%20Block%20Tech.h
>
> >
>
> I have read testimony from other pilots here that this stuff works but this
>
> still does not explain why (massive) fiberglass boats, which probably never get
>
> waxed, don't crack. Is it because they don't flex?
>
> I have a friend with an old ASW-19 in which the wings are really crazed but
>
> the fuselage is not.

Good article. Gelcoat is a petroleum based product and will dry out. Its easier to maintain then to bring back.