Heavy pilot - what glider to opt for?

[[email protected]]

Good evening,

I need some assistance!

I am an early solo pilot looking to buy my first glider, but don't really know what to go for! I want it for local soaring, but eventually to go cross country in it.

The slight issue is that I am 6`4 tall and 17.5 stone - arguably too heavy, but the question is what to go for.

I'll obviously need a roomy cockpit!

Any thoughts would be appreciated!

[[email protected]]

This comes up fairly often in this forum. Check the archives under "Large Pilot" or "Heavy Pilot". There ought to be lots of threads.

[C-FFKQ (42)]

I fly a Kestrel 19. Large cockpit and good weight loading.
I'm 6'3", weigh 240 lbs and then wear a parachute. No problem!

[Mike the Strike]

On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 1:16:56 PM UTC-7, C-FFKQ (42) wrote:
> I fly a Kestrel 19. Large cockpit and good weight loading.
>
> I'm 6'3", weigh 240 lbs and then wear a parachute. No problem!

I'm only 6'0" and under 15 stone, but I fit in a Jantar cockpit with lots of room to spare. Poles are not known for being a svelte people! The Genesis is probably the largest glider cockpit I have ever seen and you would certainly fit in it.

Mike

[[email protected]]

Problem is, I'm 2.5 stone heavier!

[Mike the Strike]

On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 3:02:57 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> Problem is, I'm 2.5 stone heavier!

We could apply the Monty Python Black Knight solution! That would solve both the weight and height problems!

Mike

[Wolf Aviator[_2_]]

At 19:17 30 October 2013, wrote:
>Good evening,
>
>I need some assistance!
>
>I am an early solo pilot looking to buy my first glider, but don't
really
>know what to go for! I want it for local soaring, but eventually to
go
>cross country in it.
>
>The slight issue is that I am 6`4 tall and 17.5 stone - arguably
too heavy,
>but the question is what to go for.
>
>I'll obviously need a roomy cockpit!
>
>Any thoughts would be appreciated!
>

Astir should be fine for your height, I am not sure about its max
load though.
Regards
Wolf
http://youtube.com/user/WolfTheAviator

[Dan Marotta]

What's a "stone"?

Seriously, either a Mosquito or Mini Nimbus has a large cockpit and good
weight carrying capacity. You can find flight manuals online to check max
weight.


"Wolf Aviator" > wrote in message
...
> At 19:17 30 October 2013, wrote:
>>Good evening,
>>
>>I need some assistance!
>>
>>I am an early solo pilot looking to buy my first glider, but don't
> really
>>know what to go for! I want it for local soaring, but eventually to
> go
>>cross country in it.
>>
>>The slight issue is that I am 6`4 tall and 17.5 stone - arguably
> too heavy,
>>but the question is what to go for.
>>
>>I'll obviously need a roomy cockpit!
>>
>>Any thoughts would be appreciated!
>>
>
> Astir should be fine for your height, I am not sure about its max
> load though.
> Regards
> Wolf
> http://youtube.com/user/WolfTheAviator
>

[JS]

Dan et al:
The stone is an old-fashioned unit of measure... Like cubits and spans, fathoms, furlongs per fortnight, etc.
Divide the stone by 14, only people with the same passport I have use that measure, to get pounds, which possibly only people with the same passport as yours use.
When did the 110kg max cockpit weight figure come into play? Pilots like Pete could search prior models to that date.
Jim

On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 5:04:33 PM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
> What's a "stone"?

[Frank Whiteley]

On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 9:24:41 PM UTC-6, JS wrote:
> Dan et al:
>
> The stone is an old-fashioned unit of measure... Like cubits and spans, fathoms, furlongs per fortnight, etc.
>
> Divide the stone by 14, only people with the same passport I have use that measure, to get pounds, which possibly only people with the same passport as yours use.
>
> When did the 110kg max cockpit weight figure come into play? Pilots like Pete could search prior models to that date.
>
> Jim
>
110kg is the 'minimum' maximum that was defined under JAR22 (CS-22 since about 2003). There is nothing wrong with having a higher maximum seat pan limit as long as the belts and straps and their anchor points are designed for the higher limits along with the airframe.

Pre-JAR22 gliders, like the Open Cirrus, have payloads based on a max weight of the non-lifting parts, so payload can be a bit more generous with a simple panel and no O2. But they are a bit hard to find and aging, but kind of meet the stated goals of the OP. As mentioned before, the Genesis 2 has an excellent payload and large cockpit. However, it is aero tow only with no CG hook, which may be another limitation in the UK/Europe.

Frank Whiteley

[son_of_flubber]

How does the glider fly if a pilot is over the maximum allowable weight? Not slow I bet.

[[email protected]]

"Divide the stone by 14, only people with the same passport I have use that measure, to get pounds"

I think you meant to type "multiply by 14 to get pounds" :-)

My club has a retractable gear Twin Astir which has the payload to take a 245 lb. pilot in both seats simultaneously. You need room - easy to judge if you can get a look at a glider and sit in it, type certificate pilot load of at least 245 lbs. and the hardest part - actual payload capacity depending upon the remaining payload of the glider at its actual current weight (given equipment and any weight increase brought about by repairs) and the center of gravity considerations.

Any glider you get seriously interested in, make absolutely sure that it has had a recent weight and balance performed performed correctly. That isn't always done. We have a single Astir where the weight and balance in the books done for the export C of A when purchased was out by about 80 pounds. We found out when the glider was re-weighed after the installation of all the control mass balance weight under an AD. Strangely, the old weight and balance said the glider was HEAVIER than it really was!

[JS]

Har!
At least someone's paying attention, evidently not me.
Jim

On Thursday, October 31, 2013 12:03:46 PM UTC-7, wrote:
>
> I think you meant to type "multiply by 14 to get pounds" :-)
>

[Surge]

I'm an early solo pilot and I am also looking around for a first glider and leaning towards an Astir G102 CS.
I'm also 6'4" tall although my mass is a little lower (95kg/15 stone).

The problem is that not every one has the same proportions. For example I am long in the legs and have a shorter upper torso.
I did all my training in a G103 and I did not fit well at all. The air brake would pop open if I used full right rudder because the lever was jammed up against my left knee. Other students my height were longer in the torso and had no problems fitting in the G103.

In terms of the glider I can say that the club G102 Astir CS I fly has a large roomy cockpit and much more legroom than the G103. Finding the right type of parachute is an important factor too as it has a vast effect on head and leg room.
The maximum cockpit load in the G102's is 110kg and you're going to be on the limit without a parachute and a bit over with one.
I doubt that 8kg over the limit with a chute would have any major effect on handling but one would need to take insurance and liability into account if you do decide to go that route.
Take note that the Astir CS-77 has a flatter canopy which makes the cockpit much more cramped and adds zero performance benefit from what I've read.
In terms of handling the Astir is nice and docile on low hour pilots yet has enough performance for decent cross country flying. I haven't managed to scare myself with one yet.
In terms of cost I don't think you're going to find anything much cheaper in the glass range than the G102 and spares appear to be plentiful world wide.

I'd love to purchase an ASW-20 as my first ship (after I have a few more hours under my belt) but they sell for around four times that of a G102 and only add around 6 points to the L/D from what I can see.

[son_of_flubber]

On Friday, November 1, 2013 4:45:35 AM UTC-4, Surge wrote:

> the Astir CS-77 has a flatter canopy which makes the cockpit much more cramped

Has a glider manufacturer ever offered an overblown canopy to add a few inches of head height?

And what about offering a slightly deeper seat pan as an option? Windward Performance offers the deeper seat pan option.

I wonder what percentage of modern-sized people are just too big for a sailplane.

[kirk.stant]

On Thursday, October 31, 2013 9:03:26 AM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
> How does the glider fly if a pilot is over the maximum allowable weight? Not slow I bet.

With racing glass it is more of a CG/trim issue, since practically it mainly limits how much water you can carry before exceeding your max gross weight, and how low you can get your wingloading dry. A heavy pilot also moves the CG forward, which can have significant negative effect on climbing performance.

I pretty much max out my useful load in my LS6, and had to add appropriate weight aft to keep the CG somewhere useful; careful W&B accomplished of course to stay legal (barely). Before adjusting the CG my climb rate suffered due to having to hold too much aft stick, now I climb just fine, thankyou. My min w/l is around 8 psf, which in an LS6 is actually pretty nice - especially in no-ballast-allowed races!

But there is the subtle problem of the total weight of non-lifting parts - because weight in the cockpit is not the same as weight in the wings...so one has to be careful and watch the numbers per the flight manual.

Real world effect is probably slightly lower G limits due to greater stress at the wing roots; any aero engineers feel free to jump in if I'm wrong!

Kirk
66

[[email protected]]

On Friday, November 1, 2013 6:44:09 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
> On Thursday, October 31, 2013 9:03:26 AM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
>
> > How does the glider fly if a pilot is over the maximum allowable weight? Not slow I bet.
>
>
>
> With racing glass it is more of a CG/trim issue, since practically it mainly limits how much water you can carry before exceeding your max gross weight, and how low you can get your wingloading dry. A heavy pilot also moves the CG forward, which can have significant negative effect on climbing performance.
>
>
>
> I pretty much max out my useful load in my LS6, and had to add appropriate weight aft to keep the CG somewhere useful; careful W&B accomplished of course to stay legal (barely). Before adjusting the CG my climb rate suffered due to having to hold too much aft stick, now I climb just fine, thankyou. My min w/l is around 8 psf, which in an LS6 is actually pretty nice - especially in no-ballast-allowed races!
>
>
>
> But there is the subtle problem of the total weight of non-lifting parts - because weight in the cockpit is not the same as weight in the wings...so one has to be careful and watch the numbers per the flight manual.
>
>
>
> Real world effect is probably slightly lower G limits due to greater stress at the wing roots; any aero engineers feel free to jump in if I'm wrong!
>
>
>
> Kirk
>
> 66

Kirk, I don't think you can trade cockpit load for water ballast load since cockpit load is part of nonflying parts and ballast goes in the wing so there ought to be a big difference in the loads on wing-fuselage fittings and main spar bending loads - I don't think that is a straight weight/g-load linear relationship. I am less clear on what you are allowed to do for Experimental aircraft, but I don't think you can just re-calculate the bending moments for a certified airplane and go fly with a different flight envelope..

Ripping the wings off could ruin your whole day.

9B

[[email protected]]

Cheers for your suggestions!

[kirk.stant]

On Friday, November 1, 2013 9:56:15 AM UTC-5, wrote:

> Kirk, I don't think you can trade cockpit load for water ballast load since cockpit load is part of nonflying parts and ballast goes in the wing so there ought to be a big difference in the loads on wing-fuselage fittings and main spar bending loads - I don't think that is a straight weight/g-load linear relationship. I am less clear on what you are allowed to do for Experimental aircraft, but I don't think you can just re-calculate the bending moments for a certified airplane and go fly with a different flight envelope.

Correct - that's why I caveat that a careful W&B is necessary! My point is that at least in my LS6, you could not have a max weight pilot and full water without exceeding the gross wt limit; so in effect some of the pilot wt is taken out of the allowable ballast wt.

As always, RTFM.

Cheers,

Kirk

[Chris Rollings[_2_]]

One source of confusion on cockpit loads is that the airworthiness
requirement for certification under JAR 22 was (and I think still is under
the current regulations) that, with basic instrumentation, the minimum
cockpit load must be not more than 70 Kg/154 lbs and the maximum not less
than 110 Kg/ 242 lbs. Most gliders, if weighed and weight and balance
calculations done, will have limits wider than this, in some cases much
wider. Some time back, the major German manufacturers developed the
practice of sending new gliders out of the factory placarded with the
70/110 kg limits, checking their weight and balance and calculating
cockpit loads on delivery usually enabled the re-placarding of wider
limits. This was a common practice in the UK, not sure if it was much done
in the USA.

At 22:47 03 November 2013, kirk.stant wrote:
>On Friday, November 1, 2013 9:56:15 AM UTC-5,
wrote:
>
>> Kirk, I don't think you can trade cockpit load for water ballast load
>sin=
>ce cockpit load is part of nonflying parts and ballast goes in the wing
so
>=
>there ought to be a big difference in the loads on wing-fuselage fittings
>a=
>nd main spar bending loads - I don't think that is a straight
>weight/g-load=
> linear relationship. I am less clear on what you are allowed to do for
>Exp=
>erimental aircraft, but I don't think you can just re-calculate the
>bending=
> moments for a certified airplane and go fly with a different flight
>envelo=
>pe.
>
>Correct - that's why I caveat that a careful W&B is necessary! My point
>is=
> that at least in my LS6, you could not have a max weight pilot and full
>wa=
>ter without exceeding the gross wt limit; so in effect some of the pilot
>wt=
> is taken out of the allowable ballast wt.
>
>As always, RTFM.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Kirk
>

[Don Johnstone[_4_]]

At 07:47 04 November 2013, Chris Rollings wrote:
>One source of confusion on cockpit loads is that the airworthiness
>requirement for certification under JAR 22 was (and I think still is
under
>the current regulations) that, with basic instrumentation, the minimum
>cockpit load must be not more than 70 Kg/154 lbs and the maximum not less
>than 110 Kg/ 242 lbs. Most gliders, if weighed and weight and balance
>calculations done, will have limits wider than this, in some cases much
>wider. Some time back, the major German manufacturers developed the
>practice of sending new gliders out of the factory placarded with the
>70/110 kg limits, checking their weight and balance and calculating
>cockpit loads on delivery usually enabled the re-placarding of wider
>limits. This was a common practice in the UK, not sure if it was much
done
>in the USA.
>
I think you will find that the upper cockpit seat limit is fixed by the
certification of the harness/attachment points which is why most gliders
have 110kg (242lbs) as the seat limit.

[Del Copeland]

I believe that NASA have several redundant Space Shuttles that
should meet your needs! Alternatively go on a diet. Try sitting in a
few gliders and see what is comfortable.

Del C


At 19:17 30 October 2013, wrote:
>Good evening,
>
>I need some assistance!
>
>I am an early solo pilot looking to buy my first glider, but don't
really
>know what to go for! I want it for local soaring, but eventually to
go
>cross country in it.
>
>The slight issue is that I am 6`4 tall and 17.5 stone - arguably too
heavy,
>but the question is what to go for.
>
>I'll obviously need a roomy cockpit!
>
>Any thoughts would be appreciated!
>

[Gary O'Neill[_2_]]

I am going to suggest a Lak 12 , they are rated to have the cockpit weight
raised up to 130kgs with tail weights but they are for the long legged
shorter bodied person, I do not fit!
If the other issues around a long winged old open class are OK then you
have a 50:1 glider for a reasonable price that can handle your weight,
height and body geometry, try one on for size , the only other suggestion
is the HP24 rated to 300 pounds and a large cockpit.

At 08:45 01 November 2013, Surge wrote:
>I'm an early solo pilot and I am also looking around for a first glider
>and=
> leaning towards an Astir G102 CS.
>I'm also 6'4" tall although my mass is a little lower (95kg/15 stone).
>
>The problem is that not every one has the same proportions. For example I
>a=
>m long in the legs and have a shorter upper torso.
>I did all my training in a G103 and I did not fit well at all. The air
>brak=
>e would pop open if I used full right rudder because the lever was jammed
>u=
>p against my left knee. Other students my height were longer in the torso
>a=
>nd had no problems fitting in the G103.
>
>In terms of the glider I can say that the club G102 Astir CS I fly has a
>la=
>rge roomy cockpit and much more legroom than the G103. Finding the right
>ty=
>pe of parachute is an important factor too as it has a vast effect on
head
>=
>and leg room.
>The maximum cockpit load in the G102's is 110kg and you're going to be on
>t=
>he limit without a parachute and a bit over with one.
>I doubt that 8kg over the limit with a chute would have any major effect
>on=
> handling but one would need to take insurance and liability into account
>i=
>f you do decide to go that route.
>Take note that the Astir CS-77 has a flatter canopy which makes the
>cockpit=
> much more cramped and adds zero performance benefit from what I've read.
>In terms of handling the Astir is nice and docile on low hour pilots yet
>ha=
>s enough performance for decent cross country flying. I haven't managed
to
>=
>scare myself with one yet.
>In terms of cost I don't think you're going to find anything much cheaper
>i=
>n the glass range than the G102 and spares appear to be plentiful world
>wid=
>e.
>
>I'd love to purchase an ASW-20 as my first ship (after I have a few more
>ho=
>urs under my belt) but they sell for around four times that of a G102 and
>o=
>nly add around 6 points to the L/D from what I can see.
>

[Ventus_a]

[QUOTE="Gary O'Neill[_2_];846500"]I am going to suggest a Lak 12 , they are rated to have the cockpit weight
raised up to 130kgs with tail weights but they are for the long legged
shorter bodied person, I do not fit!
<snip>

Would like to know where the 130 kg figure comes from. The flight manual says 110 kg max cockpit

[[email protected]]

No matter what your size.
A Caproni California A-21 is for you.
Make sure you get the jet engine self launch option.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Saturday, November 9, 2013 1:58:04 PM UTC-7, Ventus_a wrote:
> "Gary O'Neill[_2_ Wrote:
>
> > ;846500"]I am going to suggest a Lak 12 , they are rated to have the
>
> > cockpit weight
>
> > raised up to 130kgs with tail weights but they are for the long legged
>
> > shorter bodied person, I do not fit!
>
> > <snip>
>
> >
>
> > Would like to know where the 130 kg figure comes from. The flight
>
> > manual says 110 kg max cockpit
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Ventus_a

BGA has a faxed letter from the factory allowing 130kg in the cockpit if 3kg of lead are installed in the tail. AFAIK, this was for a single glider, LAK-12 sn 6178. However, there is another letter on the same topic regarding BGA 4170, which refers to the same FAX date. I presume it's the same glider, however, apart from the date of the FAX, nothing in the correspondence links the serial number to the registration. Seems to be a one off approval.

YMMV

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, October 31, 2013 11:04:33 AM UTC+11, Dan Marotta wrote:
> What's a "stone"?
>
>
>
Whats a "pound"?

The sooner you guys adopt the metric system the better.
It's the 21st Century for goodness sake.
I won't hold my breath though

[Dave Nadler]

On Monday, November 11, 2013 6:05:49 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> Whats a "pound"?

A lot more than an Oz$ ;-)

[2G]

On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 12:17:44 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> Good evening,
>
>
>
> I need some assistance!
>
>
>
> I am an early solo pilot looking to buy my first glider, but don't really know what to go for! I want it for local soaring, but eventually to go cross country in it.
>
>
>
> The slight issue is that I am 6`4 tall and 17.5 stone - arguably too heavy, but the question is what to go for.
>
>
>
> I'll obviously need a roomy cockpit!
>
>
>
> Any thoughts would be appreciated!

Many years ago someone else posted a very similar question and got pretty much the same type of replies - except for mine. I recommended that he lose weight. I know it can be done: I lost 50 lbs and am back into a 34" waist. A year or so after posting that I was at Ephrata, WA when someone came up to me and introduced himself. I knew him, but didn't recognize him - he had read my post and took my advice, sucessfully! It gave my great sense of pride that I had had a material impact on someone elses life.

So, I am repeating the advice: lose weight! It is not that hard if you just commit yourself (sort of like getting your pilots license). One pound of fat is about 3500 calories. If you just cut 500 calories (two sugared soft drinks) a day out of your diet you will lose one pound a week. That is FIFTY pounds a year. I did it by cutting one meal a day and being prudent about the other two meals. Believe me, I didn't starve!

Good luck!

Tom

[Dan Marotta]

Well then, what's a kilostone, a boulder? Is a millistone, a pebble or a
grain? How many kilometers (kilometres?) in a minute of latitude?

Sheesh - the birds are walking today and it's not even winter yet...


> wrote in message
...
> On Thursday, October 31, 2013 11:04:33 AM UTC+11, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> What's a "stone"?
>>
>>
>>
> Whats a "pound"?
>
> The sooner you guys adopt the metric system the better.
> It's the 21st Century for goodness sake.
> I won't hold my breath though

[son_of_flubber]

On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 12:27:08 AM UTC-5, 2G wrote:

> So, I am repeating the advice: lose weight!

WRT to weight management, I found that taking up a second complementary sport that does not involve sitting in a reclining chair for 4-5 hours at a stretch, and that I can do when the weather is poor for flying (in the rain) helps. I arrested and reversed my creeping weight gain this season.

Also, if it is not dangerously hot where you fly, make taking a walk at the airfield part of your routine preflight preparations. I find that the walk also boosts my alertness after that long drive to the airport.

And if you can think of nothing else... try the no_beer_no_mayonnaise diet ;)

[Jonathon May[_2_]]

At 05:27 12 November 2013, 2G wrote:
>On Wednesday, October 30, 2013 12:17:44 PM UTC-7,

>=
>wrote:
>> Good evening,
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> I need some assistance!
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> I am an early solo pilot looking to buy my first glider, but don't
>really=
> know what to go for! I want it for local soaring, but eventually to go
>cro=
>ss country in it.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> The slight issue is that I am 6`4 tall and 17.5 stone - arguably too
>heav=
>y, but the question is what to go for.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> I'll obviously need a roomy cockpit!
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Any thoughts would be appreciated!
>
>Many years ago someone else posted a very similar question and got pretty
>m=
>uch the same type of replies - except for mine. I recommended that he
lose
>=
>weight. I know it can be done: I lost 50 lbs and am back into a 34"
waist.
>=
>A year or so after posting that I was at Ephrata, WA when someone came
up
>t=
>o me and introduced himself. I knew him, but didn't recognize him - he
had
>=
>read my post and took my advice, sucessfully! It gave my great sense of
>pri=
>de that I had had a material impact on someone elses life.
>
>So, I am repeating the advice: lose weight! It is not that hard if you
>just=
> commit yourself (sort of like getting your pilots license). One pound of
>f=
>at is about 3500 calories. If you just cut 500 calories (two sugared soft
>d=
>rinks) a day out of your diet you will lose one pound a week. That is
>FIFTY=
> pounds a year. I did it by cutting one meal a day and being prudent
about
>=
>the other two meals. Believe me, I didn't starve!=20
>
>Good luck!
>
>Tom
>


A little out of the box but jonkers JS1 say on they can uprate to 130kg,if
you
go to the web site and read the spec .
One hell of a first glider but it will be a while till you need to upgrade
again.

[[email protected]]

Looks excellent, if not a little expensive!!!

[BobD]

> Looks excellent, if not a little expensive!!!

Pete: I've just taken ownership of a Jonker JS-1C. Yes, expensive. I'm 6ft 2in and it's a tight fit although once snugged in its comfortable.

But not quite as comfortable as the Genesis 2 I'm selling that I've have owned for 13 years. One prospective buyer I showed it to was just over 6ft 3in and with light/thin shoes he was comfortable and button-up. The G2 cockpit has a nice, deep seat pan and hip-wise is comfortable. Length-wise it's good and my feet are U.S. 10-1/2 with plenty of room. Head-wise there's enough canopy clearance. The key is your frame. If you're really wide in the hips and shoulders, it will be tight. I wear a U.S. 44-long sport jacket and I'm very comfortable at the shoulders in the G2 cockpit.

The G2's max cockpit weight limit is 242lb, and by my math that's slightly under your weight. CG correcting is ample though, with lead plate stations in the tail. But with a chute, you'd be slightly over the limit. However, if you'd like to see the Genesis I'm selling go to: http://www.flickr.com/photos/ge2glider4sale/

[[email protected]]

Looks great! However, out of my price range and indeed my country!!
What's everyones thoughts on some kind of single astir for a big pilot?

[Chris Rollings[_2_]]

The original Astir CS, introduced in 1976 had the largest cockpit of the
single-seater range I think.

At 23:11 23 November 2013, wrote:
>Looks great! However, out of my price range and indeed my country!!
>What's everyones thoughts on some kind of single astir for a big pilot?
>

[[email protected]]

Anyone flown one? Is it good for early cross country flying??

[son_of_flubber]

On Sunday, November 24, 2013 6:58:18 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> Anyone flown one? Is it good for early cross country flying??

Since the CS stands for Club Standard I expect that many people flown Grob G102 Astir CS.

You can look up gliders on Wikipedia to get a general idea of what they are designed to do and deduce a lot from the specs.

You can find the accident history of the type at http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/index.aspx Search for Grob G102 will return more reports than searching on Astir CS. If you look at "probable cause" you will get some idea about the types of accidents that people have (for example, whether the glider is prone to enter spins.)

You can search Soaring magazine archives for articles about specific glider types.

[son_of_flubber]

On Sunday, November 24, 2013 6:58:18 AM UTC-5, wrote:
> Anyone flown one? Is it good for early cross country flying??

You can find the owners of all of the existing aircraft of a type by searching at http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/AcftRef_Inquiry.aspx

When you find a Grob Astir CS at a club or commercial operation near you, you can visit and see if the cockpit is comfortable for you. You might even be able to rent it for an hour.

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Sun, 24 Nov 2013 03:58:18 -0800, pete.gartland wrote:

> Anyone flown one? Is it good for early cross country flying??

They are pleasant enough and quite easy to fly, though with a slightly
stodgy feel, a bit like its big brother, the Twin Astir/Grob G.103A Acro,
though obviously it feels lighter and more responsive than the G.103.
I don't have a lot of time in them: I flew a club-owned example while
visiting a different club for a few days.

A club-mate owned one a few years back. Like almost everybody in my club,
he got his Silver C in the club's SZD Juniors before (I think)
transitioning to the club's Pegase 90. Then he bought the Astir CS and
and did some excellent xc flights in it over the next couple of years
before replacing it with an LS-7.

At one time the world gliding altitude record was held by an Astir CS.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[C-FFKQ (42)]

My club has a Grob 102 CS-77. The L/D is about 36 or so, retractable gear.
I'm 6'3", 240 lbs and fit nicely in the cockpit, but without a parachute (haven't tried -- think my head would hit the top of the canopy, and I'd be over gross weight). There are some taller pilots in my club that also fly the ship.

Flight characteristics are nice (not great), but a bit under-ruddered; think of it as a sportier version of the G103. I can't spin it, probably because of my weight bringing the CG forward and there isn't much tendency to drop a wing during stall.

I hear the Genesis 2 has a nice large cockpit. I know the Kestrel does (I fly a Kestrel 19)

[JS]

I used to fly N131SS, the Astir CS which George Vakkur featured his chapter of "Ridge Soaring The Bald Eagle Ridge". Had some great thermal and ridge flights in it.
Very roomy. Easy to fly. Taping the wing roots is a chore. They had a few ADs which should all be taken care of by now. You can't take off with the tail dolly on, and that dolly even stores in the cockpit.
Bob Harris' World Altitude record was in a newer version of the "Baby Grob". Like the one Rick Anderson is selling on W+W now.
Jim

[[email protected]]

I owned a CS the last 4 years and made about 120 xc flights up to 500km. After some training the assembling is no problem, and flight characteristics are better than its reputation. Water ballast is always good, and the turbulator tape improves handling in thermals.

Max cockpit weight however is reduced in most Astir CS, mine was max. 96kg (211lbs)

[Gary O'Neill[_2_]]

I am big ,wide shoulders and hips ', 6ft 1 in shoes and near top limit
weight wise. I have tried a lot of ships and here is my list in order of
size-comfort
ASW17 cockpit large and long ,not a beginner ship
LS3 cockpit large and long ,good beginner ship ,powerful airbrakes can
land heavy
Kestrel 17 and 19 very long, reasonable beginner ship
Ventus B cockpit not as large and long ,touchy controls ,not really a
beginner ship, has an abrupt spin entry,
Asw 20 and 19 deceptive in cockpit arrangement, with a bit of arranging and
setting up can fit a fairly large long pilot
DG all single seaters are snug width wise but very long I think up to 6ft
8 no probs.





At 02:17 11 November 2013, Frank Whiteley wrote:
>On Saturday, November 9, 2013 1:58:04 PM UTC-7, Ventus_a wrote:
>> "Gary O'Neill[_2_ Wrote:=20
>>=20
>> > ;846500"]I am going to suggest a Lak 12 , they are rated to have the
>>=20
>> > cockpit weight
>>=20
>> > raised up to 130kgs with tail weights but they are for the long
legged
>>=20
>> > shorter bodied person, I do not fit!
>>=20
>> >
>>=20
>> >=20
>>=20
>> > Would like to know where the 130 kg figure comes from. The flight
>>=20
>> > manual says 110 kg max cockpit
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> --=20
>>=20
>> Ventus_a
>
>BGA has a faxed letter from the factory allowing 130kg in the cockpit if
>3k=
>g of lead are installed in the tail. AFAIK, this was for a single
glider,
>=
>LAK-12 sn 6178. However, there is another letter on the same topic
>regardi=
>ng BGA 4170, which refers to the same FAX date. I presume it's the same
>gl=
>ider, however, apart from the date of the FAX, nothing in the
>correspondenc=
>e links the serial number to the registration. Seems to be a one off
>appro=
>val.
>
>YMMV
>

[gkemp]

>
> I am an early solo pilot looking to buy my first glider, but don't really know what to go for! I want it for local soaring, but eventually to go cross country in it.
>
>
>
> The slight issue is that I am 6`4 tall and 17.5 stone - arguably too heavy, but the question is what to go for.
>
>
>
> I'll obviously need a roomy cockpit!
>
>
>
> Any thoughts would be appreciated!

I am or was when flying 6'3" and 260 (about 18.5 stone) Flew comfortably all Schweizer products, Pegasus, Nimbus 3 (took seat out and set on the floor with padding), Std. Cirrus, Ventus.

g. kemp

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, 30 October 2013 19:17:44 UTC, wrote:
> Good evening,
>
>
>
> I need some assistance!
>
>
>
> I am an early solo pilot looking to buy my first glider, but don't really know what to go for! I want it for local soaring, but eventually to go cross country in it.
>
>
>
> The slight issue is that I am 6`4 tall and 17.5 stone - arguably too heavy, but the question is what to go for.
>
>
>
> I'll obviously need a roomy cockpit!
>
>
>
> Any thoughts would be appreciated!

Here is My 5p worth I am 6 ft 2. A PPL but not renewed my PPL licence and took up Gliding in Oct 2012. I went solo 010113 the problems I had were, my weight and size, being 242lbs naked ... so diet and got down to 230lbs ok I like red wine and approaching 60 years of age ... so hard and still going down reduce portions eat slower don't snack, drink less alcohol. Its a hard decision. work on the assumption everything you put in your mouth is 100 calories except water and tea. So 1700 calories a day Max. Clues, I slice of toast 100 calories one boiled egg 100 calories cup of tea no sugar 4 cals water zero. They are all less than that but 100 cals ! But 100cal a slice works! Trust me ! I'm a Chef.

Second in my view most clubs don't like older pilots, they like 21 year olds not 50 to 60 year olds, lots of reasons why ( but if you are that keen put up with the **** and enjoy the flying, take your time.

Third. Gliders, because I have wide shoulders narrow hips and a paunch .... I don't fit well in a K13 but fine in a K21, now most clubs are NOT happy for you to hog their prize ship ... so that becomes and Issue, If the Club you fly at are more interested in flying red letter days than members, move club. Not all clubs are the same.

First glider .... I think I missed the bit in the club manual where it says don't buy a glider till you have spoken to your CFI .... OOps ! Now thats when the CFI had a major tantrum, well it was his 10th tantrum actually, so moved club. I went and visited 4 clubs before I found a very sympathetic CFI who patted me down and we discussed all my problems flying vices, strengths and weaknesses ... progress was rapid once again. and I am enjoying the new club, so quickly out of the K21 and into the Junior as I don't fit in any wooden gliders!

Junior great little Glider to fly Air brakes like an escalator and great early single seater, "God I was scared on that first aero tow". As an Extra, nearly all my early flights apart from 5 were winch and I enjoyed the winch once I got over the fear! but aero tow can be just as challenging.

Own Glider ... The one I bought was a Standard Cirrus, Perhaps not the best Glider to buy as a first ownership Glider, but being a PPL and have many hours in LAA aircraft + others including Longez, Katanas, Arrows, Robins, Airtourer, Slingsby T67 to name a few of my power aircraft in my log book. I felt confident I got it right. Std Cirrus, big cockpit, and will take 6ft 4 depending on your build, everything is to hand and the only problem so far is pulling up the undercarriage leaver, Putting it down is fine but up is a pain in the ass! Problem 2 like most early solo pilots you can get a bit over confident in your glider everybody wizzing about and you struggling to find the thermals! Workload goes up ! You come down faster and faster till you go off in a really good 2 seater .... My club has a Duo Discus and I have been fortunate to fly it three times cross country with a really good pilot who is considerate and takes his time to explain what sensations I should be feeling ( it helped a lot ).
My Glider...... would I buy a glider outright on my own again? .....Maybe but thats me, My view is perhaps next I might share a glider in a very small group, but i have been in a group before and every time you want to fly it it's gone !

Over confidence, When you have flown your glider several times and it is quicker than the club aircraft and more slippery and retractable and smaller airbrakes !!!! and a bugger to get out of the trailer and rig every time you want to fly it ! Lots of bad language here ! ..... don't rush to buy a glider, wait look and sit in plenty !

Did I get it wrong .... Only once so far on finals... but it was in my Std Cirrus over confident and poor decision making made me beat myself up for weeks.... Is the Cirrus right as a first Glider .... it was for me, but perhaps not for everybody, Skills, ability, practice. Winter is over its now March 2014 I am back in the K21 for 3 or 4 flights one or two in the Junior and one in the Duo when its a nice day and back in my Cirrus ... Hope this helped.

Bronze Exam to finish and renewal of my RT licence and cross country experience on my own this year is the goal, As a addition I have bought a very expensive set of covers for the Cirrus so I don't have to rig it every time..

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, 30 October 2013 19:17:44 UTC, wrote:
> Good evening,
>
>
>
> I need some assistance!
>
>
>
> I am an early solo pilot looking to buy my first glider, but don't really know what to go for! I want it for local soaring, but eventually to go cross country in it.
>
>
>
> The slight issue is that I am 6`4 tall and 17.5 stone - arguably too heavy, but the question is what to go for.
>
>
>
> I'll obviously need a roomy cockpit!
>
>
>
> Any thoughts would be appreciated!



On Wednesday, 30 October 2013 19:17:44 UTC, wrote:
> Good evening,
>
>
>
> I need some assistance!
>
>
>
> I am an early solo pilot looking to buy my first glider, but don't really know what to go for! I want it for local soaring, but eventually to go cross country in it.
>
>
>
> The slight issue is that I am 6`4 tall and 17.5 stone - arguably too heavy, but the question is what to go for.
>
>
>
> I'll obviously need a roomy cockpit!
>
>
>
> Any thoughts would be appreciated!

[[email protected]]

I'm 6'4" and 235. How comfortable are you in the Kestral and how much room do you have to move around in around your hips and shoulders. My hips and shoulders are wide.

Thanks, Jon 949.770.0700

[son_of_flubber]

Why are recreational glider cockpits so small? If someone built a glider with a 25% larger cockpit, would it hurt the L/D that much?

Are all high performance gliders built for racing and by consequence make the sport unattractive for larger people?

How many people retire from gliding because they no longer fit in their gliders? How many never try the sport because they find the cockpit claustrophobic and uncomfortable? How many teenagers solo only to grow too big to fit in a glider?

If Eastern Europeans grow larger over time, will glider cockpits get bigger?

If the sport offered an extra large cockpit, would it increase participation levels?

Has anyone modified a two place glider to accommodate an extra large pilot?

[Echo]

6'5" 230lb. ASW20. Seat back removed. Feels great after 6 hours in the air. Astronaut foam and a hand pump inflatable lumbar cushion velcroed to my chute.

[Dan Marotta]

....Has anyone considered putting down that Twinkie?


"son_of_flubber" > wrote in message
...
> Why are recreational glider cockpits so small? If someone built a glider
> with a 25% larger cockpit, would it hurt the L/D that much?
>
> Are all high performance gliders built for racing and by consequence make
> the sport unattractive for larger people?
>
> How many people retire from gliding because they no longer fit in their
> gliders? How many never try the sport because they find the cockpit
> claustrophobic and uncomfortable? How many teenagers solo only to grow
> too big to fit in a glider?
>
> If Eastern Europeans grow larger over time, will glider cockpits get
> bigger?
>
> If the sport offered an extra large cockpit, would it increase
> participation levels?
>
> Has anyone modified a two place glider to accommodate an extra large
> pilot?

[Vaughn]

On 4/3/2014 8:33 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> ...Has anyone considered putting down that Twinkie?

Yes! 20-some years ago when I became serious about learning to fly
gliders, I also got looking at seat weight limits in gliders. What I
saw was motivating enough for me to drop 30 pounds. Those pounds are
still off today.

I'll take motivation wherever I can find it.

Vaughn

[Squeaky]

My weight has varied from 200 to 240. My Pilatus has a 240 lb limit, but it is tight on my shoulders as the cockpit isn't wide. But it works and is a good beginner ship. Th SZD 51 Junior is also friendly to big and tall.

Neither are great shakes at cross country, but you can get it done, it just takes a while, but both are also good east coast ships and climb well...

[Echo]

Not about twinkies for some of us. Some of us spend too much time in the weight room.

E