Buying my first glider

[[email protected]]

Pilots,

Thanks for all your help in the prior thread about selecting a ship:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.soaring/USacPAI8Pm4

I've decided on an ASW 27, Ventus 2, or LS6. If a pristine ASW20 or Ventus C were to show up, I would strongly consider one of those as well.

There is a ship I'm considering in South Carolina. I'm in contact with the seller, however, he seems busy and has only sent minimal info and a few pictures.

I was considering having an A&P person inspect the ship before I went through the expense of a flight from Seattle to South Carolina. Is that a good idea? Has anyone done that? Any tips on what to ask for?

If the inspection works out, and I fly out and decide I like the ship, does anyone know of a company or service to use to ship a glider across the country (and can recommend)?

Thanks!

-Jason

[K]

On Friday, November 1, 2013 4:52:07 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> Pilots,
>
>
>
> Thanks for all your help in the prior thread about selecting a ship:
>
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.soaring/USacPAI8Pm4
>
>
>
> I've decided on an ASW 27, Ventus 2, or LS6. If a pristine ASW20 or Ventus C were to show up, I would strongly consider one of those as well.
>
>
>
> There is a ship I'm considering in South Carolina. I'm in contact with the seller, however, he seems busy and has only sent minimal info and a few pictures.
>
>
>
> I was considering having an A&P person inspect the ship before I went through the expense of a flight from Seattle to South Carolina. Is that a good idea? Has anyone done that? Any tips on what to ask for?
>
>
>
> If the inspection works out, and I fly out and decide I like the ship, does anyone know of a company or service to use to ship a glider across the country (and can recommend)?
>
>
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
> -Jason

Jay,
If this guy has not sent detailed info forget him and move on. I wasted a two day trip on someone like this. Vague description and the glider was low time and only a few years old but it was in terrible shape. Soaring is a small community so you can probably get a hold of someone who is familiar with this ship you are looking at and it doesn't need to be a licensed mechanic. You are correct that it is good to ask around. Join the Yahoo groups for the ships you have mentioned. The last two ships I bought never made it to the classifieds. They came up word of mouth thru Yahoo groups.

[dcavagnaro%[email protected]]

On Friday, November 1, 2013 6:52:07 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> Pilots,
>
>
>
> Thanks for all your help in the prior thread about selecting a ship:
>
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.soaring/USacPAI8Pm4
>
>
>
> I've decided on an ASW 27, Ventus 2, or LS6. If a pristine ASW20 or Ventus C were to show up, I would strongly consider one of those as well.
>
>
>
> There is a ship I'm considering in South Carolina. I'm in contact with the seller, however, he seems busy and has only sent minimal info and a few pictures.
>
>
>
> I was considering having an A&P person inspect the ship before I went through the expense of a flight from Seattle to South Carolina. Is that a good idea? Has anyone done that? Any tips on what to ask for?
>
>
>
> If the inspection works out, and I fly out and decide I like the ship, does anyone know of a company or service to use to ship a glider across the country (and can recommend)?
>
>
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
> -Jason

Shipping across country can get quite expensive. In the end I had to do it myself and it was a horror show. I got the glider and trailer back in one piece but it took 5 and a half days and I hit every weather condition possible sans tornado -:). I was lucky and I would never do it again.

Dennis

[[email protected]]

> does anyone know of a company or service to use to ship a glider across the country (and can recommend)?

Post on RAS: "Tow Ball Needed, East to West", after all you'll have a few months to get it moved. Uship.com is also an option.

[son_of_flubber]

On Friday, November 1, 2013 6:52:07 PM UTC-4, wrote:
>does anyone know of a company or service to use to ship a glider across the country

RV transport companies will bid on transporting a glider and trailer behind a pickup truck. To them it is like moving a boat on a trailer.

They hire independent sub-contractors, so it is luck of the draw. Some of them do not allow hauling after dark. If you apply for a job with them, they will give you a copy of the rules that the drivers must follow. Hiring someone with a lot of miles of experience and a heavy duty tow vehicle might be safer than driving yourself and it only risks your money, not your person.

http://www.rvtransport.com/ and similar.

If the trailer is faulty, you cannot blame the hauler. So make sure it is 100% right. When I towed my 1999 Avionics trailer 1500 miles, the hinge pins of the tail gate vibrated out and the latch hasps also vibrated free. Caught it before the tailgate fell off, but it could have been a problem. Also recommend taping the aileron locks to the wings and make sure any tie down straps are well padded. Redundant tiedowns seem appropriate for a cross-country trip.

If you want to be extra careful, you could have the trailer transported in an enclosed moving van or even a flatbed truck, or a flatbed tow truck. Some of the RV transport people put them on flat bed trucks. This gives you two sets of tires and shocks to absorb vibration. The trick with the glider trailer is to get it on the flatbed... difficult because it is so long.

[Dan Marotta]

Or... Driving cross country can be a great adventure!

All good advice on trailer security. I'd add to stop after a few miles and
check wheels for being hot. That could indicate dragging brakes or dry
bearings. Make it a family vacation.

My last glider purchase was only 10-12 hours away so it was no big deal to
drive over for a look-see and test flight. I left with the glider in tow.
Prior to that, my partner and I took turns driving, left Denver for Chicago
on Friday after work, completed the inspection (no flight) and were home
with glider in tow early Sunday morning. Of course, your distance is
farther, but it could generate some great memories if you can spare the
time. It will be a LOT cheaper, too!

"son_of_flubber" > wrote in message
...
On Friday, November 1, 2013 6:52:07 PM UTC-4, wrote:
>does anyone know of a company or service to use to ship a glider across the
>country

RV transport companies will bid on transporting a glider and trailer behind
a pickup truck. To them it is like moving a boat on a trailer.

They hire independent sub-contractors, so it is luck of the draw. Some of
them do not allow hauling after dark. If you apply for a job with them,
they will give you a copy of the rules that the drivers must follow. Hiring
someone with a lot of miles of experience and a heavy duty tow vehicle might
be safer than driving yourself and it only risks your money, not your
person.

http://www.rvtransport.com/ and similar.

If the trailer is faulty, you cannot blame the hauler. So make sure it is
100% right. When I towed my 1999 Avionics trailer 1500 miles, the hinge pins
of the tail gate vibrated out and the latch hasps also vibrated free.
Caught it before the tailgate fell off, but it could have been a problem.
Also recommend taping the aileron locks to the wings and make sure any tie
down straps are well padded. Redundant tiedowns seem appropriate for a
cross-country trip.

If you want to be extra careful, you could have the trailer transported in
an enclosed moving van or even a flatbed truck, or a flatbed tow truck.
Some of the RV transport people put them on flat bed trucks. This gives you
two sets of tires and shocks to absorb vibration. The trick with the glider
trailer is to get it on the flatbed... difficult because it is so long.

[SoaringXCellence]

OK, Gotta put in my two-cents! I drove, with my buddy Jack, from Portland Oregon to Minden (to get the trailer) to New York and back. It took 9 days, driving about 800 miles a day, resting every night in a "real" bed (motel 6 or such), meals, gas, lodging, total cost was just about $6K. But oh, the memories!

[Dan Marotta]

That's what I'm talking about - memories!

Last year my Brother asked me where we should ride (our Harleys). I
suggested we get lunch in Key West. That was also a 9 day trip.

....Or you can pay someone else while you sit at your desk and dream...

"SoaringXCellence" > wrote in message
...

OK, Gotta put in my two-cents! I drove, with my buddy Jack, from Portland
Oregon to Minden (to get the trailer) to New York and back. It took 9 days,
driving about 800 miles a day, resting every night in a "real" bed (motel 6
or such), meals, gas, lodging, total cost was just about $6K. But oh, the
memories!

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

On Saturday, November 2, 2013 9:07:22 AM UTC-5, HGXC wrote:
Shipping across country can get quite expensive. In the end I had to do it myself and it was a horror show. I got the glider and trailer back in one piece but it took 5 and a half days and I hit every weather condition possible sans tornado -:). I was lucky and I would never do it again. Dennis

My most entertaining was the trip to Canada to pick up a glider. First day was really short. After work, get 200 miles down the road and overnight in a Motel 6. Early second day had heavy rains, 50+ MPH winds, probably inflow to a tornado along with hail. Radio said tornado had been sighted near where I had just been. Later in the day, picked up headwinds so strong that I was on the gas to maintain 70 MPH in the GMC Van going down a 5% grade.. That night, rain turned to freezing rain turned to snow. 20 MPH was about the max safe speed. Night two, Motel 6 number 2. Third day was a nice trip into Canada to pick up the glider. Delayed coming back across the border due to some sort of "radiation from the trailer". Only thing I can think of is the A-14 oxygen regulator and radium markings. Once back in the US, had more snow, slip sliding with the trailer, closed roads due to construction and a few stretches of one lane road that were long enough that since I missed the tail end of the line going my way, I had to sit for about 30 minutes before the "Follow Me" car came back. Night three, America's Best Value (Motel 6 was full). Day 4 had nice weather, but still windy. Spent the night with my Brother near Denver. Day 5 was an easy day from Denver back to Wichita. Round trip distance was only about 3000 miles. Left Thursday after work, was home in time for dinner on Monday.

And if the opportunity comes up to do it again, I would in a heartbeat!

But to the original question, if you know someone in the area that can take a look at the plane for you, go ahead and do that. They don't have to be a mechanic. Just an impartial set of eyes. Preferably another glider pilot. I have done this before and it helps in keeping you from being unpleasantly surprised. Eyes will see lots more than pictures will show.

Steve Leonard

[[email protected]]

Le vendredi 1 novembre 2013 18:52:07 UTC-4, a écrit*:
> Pilots,
>
>
>
> Thanks for all your help in the prior thread about selecting a ship:
>
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.soaring/USacPAI8Pm4
>
>
>
> I've decided on an ASW 27, Ventus 2, or LS6. If a pristine ASW20 or Ventus C were to show up, I would strongly consider one of those as well.
>
>
>
> There is a ship I'm considering in South Carolina. I'm in contact with the seller, however, he seems busy and has only sent minimal info and a few pictures.
>
>
>
> I was considering having an A&P person inspect the ship before I went through the expense of a flight from Seattle to South Carolina. Is that a good idea? Has anyone done that? Any tips on what to ask for?
>
>
>
> If the inspection works out, and I fly out and decide I like the ship, does anyone know of a company or service to use to ship a glider across the country (and can recommend)?
>
>
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
> -Jason

Hi
I bought a glider in Alberta and had a friend working there inspect it and followed his recommendation to buy it, agood decision. Now the fun story of getting it to Quebec,a 4 day trip. I found a student driving to Montreal over the easter weekend.
Sent all the info to him which he did not read, his father was a glider pilot and he tought he new which glider to take. After 3 day and night of driving
with his girlfriend he got to our meeting place with the wrong trailer.
Gilles

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

> Hi I bought a glider in Alberta and had a friend working there inspect it
> and followed his recommendation to buy it, a good decision. Now the fun
> story of getting it to Quebec, a 4 day trip. I found a student driving to
> Montreal over the Easter weekend. Sent all the info to him which he did not
> read, his father was a glider pilot and he thought he knew which glider to
> take. After 3 days and nights of driving with his girlfriend he got to our
> meeting place with the wrong trailer. Gilles
>

Chortle! It's been said the difference between comedy and tragedy is comedy
happens to someone else...

For the record, all of my personal glider purchasing trips were GOOD
adventures...even though a friend and I once had to beg and wheedle to be
allowed back into our native country from Canada one time after he picked up a
"timed-out" L13 some years ago.

Bob W.

[son_of_flubber]

To balance others' fond remembrances of road trips... my experience of retrieving my new glider (just 700 miles) is bad.

Due to my primary location, I have low tolerance for traffic and drivers in metropolitan areas. Being the slow guy with the big trailer and trying to change lanes?? Awwrgh!

At this point, if I had to do it over again, I would hire a professional driver for the initial long retrieve.

I understand that hauling gliders in trailers is part of the sport. I co-locate seasonally at two airports 80 miles apart, so I'm getting more comfortable with this necessity and I plan to gradually increase my range.

[Morgan[_2_]]

Absolutely get it inspected. Preferably by someone that a) knows gliders b) knows paperwork c) isn't closely tied to the glider or seller.

Properly repaired, damage history is no big deal, but you want to know about it up front. I don't recommend having the person who's been signing the Logbook do the inspection unless you personally know them. They will have no interest in highlighting anything questionable about the glider or the paperwork since they've signed their name to past inspections.

Since most gliders are Experimental, any A&P can sign off on the Conditional Inspection. Which means it may or may not have been given a proper inspection. Lot's of people out there with an A&P that will help a friend out and sign the logbook so they can go flying that day. If the inspections have routinely been signed off by a reputable shop, this is less of a concern.

My advice would be to find someone reputable to perform a full inspection of the glider. They may as well sign off on the Conditional/Annual Inspection while they are at it. Then you've got a good understanding of the state the glider is in from the beginning.

Chances are it is fine, but it is money well spent in my book and a fraction of what you are spending on the glider and getting it home.

Morgan


On Friday, November 1, 2013 3:52:07 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> Pilots,
>
>
>
> Thanks for all your help in the prior thread about selecting a ship:
>
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.soaring/USacPAI8Pm4
>
>
>
> I've decided on an ASW 27, Ventus 2, or LS6. If a pristine ASW20 or Ventus C were to show up, I would strongly consider one of those as well.
>
>
>
> There is a ship I'm considering in South Carolina. I'm in contact with the seller, however, he seems busy and has only sent minimal info and a few pictures.
>
>
>
> I was considering having an A&P person inspect the ship before I went through the expense of a flight from Seattle to South Carolina. Is that a good idea? Has anyone done that? Any tips on what to ask for?
>
>
>
> If the inspection works out, and I fly out and decide I like the ship, does anyone know of a company or service to use to ship a glider across the country (and can recommend)?
>
>
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
> -Jason

[2G]

On Friday, November 1, 2013 3:52:07 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> Pilots,
>
>
>
> Thanks for all your help in the prior thread about selecting a ship:
>
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.soaring/USacPAI8Pm4
>
>
>
> I've decided on an ASW 27, Ventus 2, or LS6. If a pristine ASW20 or Ventus C were to show up, I would strongly consider one of those as well.
>
>
>
> There is a ship I'm considering in South Carolina. I'm in contact with the seller, however, he seems busy and has only sent minimal info and a few pictures.
>
>
>
> I was considering having an A&P person inspect the ship before I went through the expense of a flight from Seattle to South Carolina. Is that a good idea? Has anyone done that? Any tips on what to ask for?
>
>
>
> If the inspection works out, and I fly out and decide I like the ship, does anyone know of a company or service to use to ship a glider across the country (and can recommend)?
>
>
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
> -Jason

I bought an ASH26E this year sightonseen based on the recommendation of people that I trusted. The purchase worked out fine, but the trailer wiring was buggered up and I had to spend an hour or two rewiring the connector. I always come prepared for such contingencies, but many don't. I also replaced the tires which were 8 years old (take my word for it, trailer tire blowouts are no fun!). So don't forget to have the trailer inspected as well as the glider!

Tom

[son_of_flubber]

On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 1:42:50 AM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
>the trailer wiring was buggered up and I had to spend an hour or two rewiring the connector. <

If you are unhappy with the reliability of your trailer to vehicle electrical connection, I recommend upgrading to this http://www.powerwerx.com/powerpole-accessories/moisture-proof-splash-boot.html

This boot uses the Powerpole self-cleaning stainless steel spring contacts.
A lot of people are using Powerpoles for other connections and may have already invested in the crimping tool

[Craig Funston[_2_]]

On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 6:24:11 AM UTC-8, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 1:42:50 AM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
>
> >the trailer wiring was buggered up and I had to spend an hour or two rewiring the connector. <
>
>
>
> If you are unhappy with the reliability of your trailer to vehicle electrical connection, I recommend upgrading to this http://www.powerwerx.com/powerpole-accessories/moisture-proof-splash-boot.html
>
>
>
> This boot uses the Powerpole self-cleaning stainless steel spring contacts.
>
> A lot of people are using Powerpoles for other connections and may have already invested in the crimping tool

Just make sure to have handy a pigtail to adapt to the plug that everyone else at your flying area uses. You'll want them to be able to pull you out of the cow pasture when you've accidentally left the keys to your vehicle in your pocket. ;-)

Craig

[[email protected]]

On Friday, November 8, 2013 11:26:57 AM UTC-5, Morgan wrote:
> Absolutely get it inspected. Preferably by someone that a) knows gliders b) knows paperwork c) isn't closely tied to the glider or seller. Properly repaired, damage history is no big deal, but you want to know about it up front. I don't recommend having the person who's been signing the Logbook do the inspection unless you personally know them. They will have no interest in highlighting anything questionable about the glider or the paperwork since they've signed their name to past inspections. Since most gliders are Experimental, any A&P can sign off on the Conditional Inspection. Which means it may or may not have been given a proper inspection. Lot's of people out there with an A&P that will help a friend out and sign the logbook so they can go flying that day. If the inspections have routinely been signed off by a reputable shop, this is less of a concern. My advice would be to find someone reputable to perform a full inspection of the glider. They may as well sign off on the Conditional/Annual Inspection while they are at it. Then you've got a good understanding of the state the glider is in from the beginning. Chances are it is fine, but it is money well spent in my book and a fraction of what you are spending on the glider and getting it home. Morgan On Friday, November 1, 2013 3:52:07 PM UTC-7,

There is no inspection called "conditional inspection". There is an inspection that may be done ny an A&P called an condition inspection. I have seen no reason to expect that an A&P is less likely to properly perform such an inspection than one holding an inspection authorization.
I do agree that an experience independent look is a good idea.
UH

[Dennis Vreeken]

On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 11:13:36 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> On Friday, November 8, 2013 11:26:57 AM UTC-5, Morgan wrote: > Absolutely get it inspected. Preferably by someone that a) knows gliders b) knows paperwork c) isn't closely tied to the glider or seller. Properly repaired, damage history is no big deal, but you want to know about it up front. I don't recommend having the person who's been signing the Logbook do the inspection unless you personally know them. They will have no interest in highlighting anything questionable about the glider or the paperwork since they've signed their name to past inspections. Since most gliders are Experimental, any A&P can sign off on the Conditional Inspection. Which means it may or may not have been given a proper inspection. Lot's of people out there with an A&P that will help a friend out and sign the logbook so they can go flying that day. If the inspections have routinely been signed off by a reputable shop, this is less of a concern. My advice would be to find someone reputable to perform a full inspection of the glider. They may as well sign off on the Conditional/Annual Inspection while they are at it. Then you've got a good understanding of the state the glider is in from the beginning. Chances are it is fine, but it is money well spent in my book and a fraction of what you are spending on the glider and getting it home. Morgan On Friday, November 1, 2013 3:52:07 PM UTC-7, There is no inspection called "conditional inspection". There is an inspection that may be done ny an A&P called an condition inspection. I have seen no reason to expect that an A&P is less likely to properly perform such an inspection than one holding an inspection authorization. I do agree that an experience independent look is a good idea. UH

Just drove 4800 kms in 4 days to pick up a new glider.Had a friend riding shotgun to help with the drive.Also bought unseen based on person's reputation.It was as expected.Road trips can be fun ! :-) D.V

[Brad[_2_]]

ok Dennis........out with it, what did you get??

Brad

[Dennis Vreeken]

On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 2:02:27 PM UTC-8, Brad wrote:
> ok Dennis........out with it, what did you get?? Brad

Top secret Brad! LAK17a

[noel.wade]

On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 12:57:25 PM UTC-8, Dennis Vreeken wrote:
> Just drove 4800 kms in 4 days to pick up a new glider.Had a friend riding shotgun to help with the drive.Also bought unseen based on person's reputation.It was as expected.Road trips can be fun ! :-) D.V

Nice, congrats on the LAK!

I think that buying a glider sight-unseen is something that's more likely to work out OK when you're buying a newer ship. For many people buying their first glider, they will be looking at an older model. And I would _never_ buy a 15+ year old ship without seeing it in-person; there are too many questionable listings out there, photos don't show all the detail, and its easy to wind up disappointed with the aircraft you thought you were getting. When I bought my DG-300 I traveled to look at 3 different gliders. I don't regret spending ~$1200 in airfare and rental cars; it saved me from making a $30,000 mistake! And the ship I ended up with was absolutely wonderful.

In summary: At a minimum, get a third-party A&P to inspect it. And if at all possible, go see the aircraft yourself!

--Noel

[Brad[_2_]]

Congrats Dennis, I really like those!

Join us in Twisp next year?

Brad

[Dan Marotta]

"Dennis Vreeken" > wrote in message
...
> On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 2:02:27 PM UTC-8, Brad wrote:
>> ok Dennis........out with it, what did you get?? Brad
>
> Top secret Brad! LAK17a


Oooooooooooooo... You're gonna like it!

[Discus 44]

On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 2:34:04 PM UTC-8, Dennis Vreeken wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 2:02:27 PM UTC-8, Brad wrote:
>
> > ok Dennis........out with it, what did you get?? Brad
>
>
>
> Top secret Brad! LAK17a

Wow! Dennis, very cool! Can't wait to see it.

TU

[[email protected]]

"friend and I once had to beg and wheedle to be
allowed back into our native country from Canada"

Really?

By the way, I hope that L-13 at least got a useful amount of flying in between the time my club sold it and when the spar A.D. took effect. It was the first glider I ever flew and the one I soloed in.