From the UK via Australia: What can glider pilots teach the airline industry?

[JS]

News from the Royal Aeronautical Society conference, picked up on the [Aus-Soaring] newsgroup, and deposited below.
Jim

http://media.aerosociety.com/aerospace-insight/2013/10/18/what-can-glider-pilots-teach-the-airline-industry/8629/

[Ross Oehms]

The reduction of Piloting skills in the Airline industry is simply due to management skills or the lack thereof. Incorrect use of simulation and the total reliance on automation are the causes of the problem. You cannot have it both ways.

I also note that accident investigators continue to note that modern instrumentation provides an excessive amount of information to the Pilot which may not be of use.

News from the Royal Aeronautical Society conference, picked up on the [Aus-Soaring] newsgroup, and deposited below.
Jim

http://media.aerosociety.com/aerospace-insight/2013/10/18/what-can-glider-pilots-teach-the-airline-industry/8629/

[Robert Dunning]

Ross,

Can you point to some examples of those reports? Feel free to contact me offline.

Rob


>
> I also note that accident investigators continue to note that modern
>
> instrumentation provides an excessive amount of information to the Pilot
>
> which may not be of use.
>

[Ross Oehms]

Not sure how to contact you Robert, please use the site to contact me, I am very new to this!

Ross O

Ross,

Can you point to some examples of those reports? Feel free to contact me offline.

Rob



I also note that accident investigators continue to note that modern

instrumentation provides an excessive amount of information to the Pilot

which may not be of use.

[Robert Dunning]

Ross, I can be reached at
rdunning0823 at yahoo dot com

Rob

On Thursday, November 14, 2013 6:25:05 PM UTC-5, Ross Oehms wrote:
> Not sure how to contact you Robert, please use the site to contact me, I
>

[bill palmer]

As an A330 Captain, long time instructor on the airplane, and the author of the book "Understanding Air France 447," I have to agree 100% with the article.

I fly with pilots every day who NEVER turn the flight director off, and who fly with captains that would never let them.

Instrument flying skills, flying skills in general, and the ability to maintain or regain control of the aircraft during an upset event, like any skill erode with non-use.

When the flight director stops working, or provides erroneous information, it will add to the difficulty of handling the upset recovery if one is not trained in how to properly handle the situation and practiced in manual control.

As one example: Until fairly recently jet airliner stall recovery consisted mostly of power application and a focus on the minimization of altitude loss. Many will cite that the AF447 crew did not react to the stall warning. But I contend that they did - and exactly how they were trained - by applying full power. Unfortunately, at high altitude, virtually no additional power is available.


Recovery training in a simulator, even with the best intentions, is limited in its possible effectiveness by the inherent lack of g-forces and the knowledge that no matter what happens, you'll get out just fine in a few hours.. It's hard to teach "unloading" in a simulator, when you can't feel it.
You'll never hang by your seatbelt or see the dirt fly off the floor in a simulator. You don't want to be doing so for the first time in the weather, in the dark, with a couple hundred passengers behind you.
Performing these maneuvers in a glider or other acrobatic aircraft adds the missing dimensions to drive home the principles of upset recovery.

Bill Palmer
understandingAF447.com


On Wednesday, November 13, 2013 9:15:54 AM UTC-8, JS wrote:
> News from the Royal Aeronautical Society conference, picked up on the [Aus-Soaring] newsgroup, and deposited below.
>
> Jim
>
>
>
> http://media.aerosociety.com/aerospace-insight/2013/10/18/what-can-glider-pilots-teach-the-airline-industry/8629/

[Piotr Szafranski]

Also, the "lessons learned" go both ways. Many human psychology / limits issues that affect airline pilots are also relevant for glider pilots. As the topic is much better documented/researched/popularized in the context of "serious flying", these (airline industry) materials are used in the training of glider pilots (just last week we had a lecture on these issues during a KSS/GSS Zar camp).



On Saturday, November 16, 2013 10:48:06 AM UTC+1, Bill Palmer wrote:
> As an A330 Captain, long time instructor on the airplane, and the author of the book "Understanding Air France 447," I have to agree 100% with the article.
>
>
>
> I fly with pilots every day who NEVER turn the flight director off, and who fly with captains that would never let them.
>
>
>
> Instrument flying skills, flying skills in general, and the ability to maintain or regain control of the aircraft during an upset event, like any skill erode with non-use.
>
>
>
> When the flight director stops working, or provides erroneous information, it will add to the difficulty of handling the upset recovery if one is not trained in how to properly handle the situation and practiced in manual control.
>
>
>
> As one example: Until fairly recently jet airliner stall recovery consisted mostly of power application and a focus on the minimization of altitude loss. Many will cite that the AF447 crew did not react to the stall warning.. But I contend that they did - and exactly how they were trained - by applying full power. Unfortunately, at high altitude, virtually no additional power is available.
>
>
>
>
>
> Recovery training in a simulator, even with the best intentions, is limited in its possible effectiveness by the inherent lack of g-forces and the knowledge that no matter what happens, you'll get out just fine in a few hours. It's hard to teach "unloading" in a simulator, when you can't feel it.
>
> You'll never hang by your seatbelt or see the dirt fly off the floor in a simulator. You don't want to be doing so for the first time in the weather, in the dark, with a couple hundred passengers behind you.
>
> Performing these maneuvers in a glider or other acrobatic aircraft adds the missing dimensions to drive home the principles of upset recovery.
>
>
>
> Bill Palmer
>
> understandingAF447.com
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, November 13, 2013 9:15:54 AM UTC-8, JS wrote:
>
> > News from the Royal Aeronautical Society conference, picked up on the [Aus-Soaring] newsgroup, and deposited below.
>
> >
>
> > Jim
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > http://media.aerosociety.com/aerospace-insight/2013/10/18/what-can-glider-pilots-teach-the-airline-industry/8629/

[Dan Marotta]

It's not a new problem. Though it's been over 30 years since I flew an
airliner, I recall many captains whose routine was "gear up, autopilot on".
The autopilot was not disengaged until short final. I never used the
autopilot, either on instruments or visually, except for coupled approaches,
which was mandatory at the time.


"Bill Palmer" > wrote in message
...
As an A330 Captain, long time instructor on the airplane, and the author of
the book "Understanding Air France 447," I have to agree 100% with the
article.

I fly with pilots every day who NEVER turn the flight director off, and who
fly with captains that would never let them.

Instrument flying skills, flying skills in general, and the ability to
maintain or regain control of the aircraft during an upset event, like any
skill erode with non-use.

When the flight director stops working, or provides erroneous information,
it will add to the difficulty of handling the upset recovery if one is not
trained in how to properly handle the situation and practiced in manual
control.

As one example: Until fairly recently jet airliner stall recovery consisted
mostly of power application and a focus on the minimization of altitude
loss. Many will cite that the AF447 crew did not react to the stall warning.
But I contend that they did - and exactly how they were trained - by
applying full power. Unfortunately, at high altitude, virtually no
additional power is available.


Recovery training in a simulator, even with the best intentions, is limited
in its possible effectiveness by the inherent lack of g-forces and the
knowledge that no matter what happens, you'll get out just fine in a few
hours. It's hard to teach "unloading" in a simulator, when you can't feel
it.
You'll never hang by your seatbelt or see the dirt fly off the floor in a
simulator. You don't want to be doing so for the first time in the weather,
in the dark, with a couple hundred passengers behind you.
Performing these maneuvers in a glider or other acrobatic aircraft adds the
missing dimensions to drive home the principles of upset recovery.

Bill Palmer
understandingAF447.com


On Wednesday, November 13, 2013 9:15:54 AM UTC-8, JS wrote:
> News from the Royal Aeronautical Society conference, picked up on the
> [Aus-Soaring] newsgroup, and deposited below.
>
> Jim
>
>
>
> http://media.aerosociety.com/aerospace-insight/2013/10/18/what-can-glider-pilots-teach-the-airline-industry/8629/

[son_of_flubber]

Make it fun to make it happen. Maybe some glider pilots, that also fly the big birds, organize a "camp" exclusively for big bird pilots at some reliable first-rate soaring site like Minden, and plan in advance to document and publicize it. A prototype.

[Ramy]

On Sunday, November 17, 2013 7:21:19 AM UTC-8, son_of_flubber wrote:
> Make it fun to make it happen. Maybe some glider pilots, that also fly the big birds, organize a "camp" exclusively for big bird pilots at some reliable first-rate soaring site like Minden, and plan in advance to document and publicize it. A prototype.

I'll have to try hard to relax and forget what I read here and in Bill's excellent book next month when I step into an airliner for a trans atlantic flight. Too bad we only have a choice of airlines and flights but can not choose the pilots...

Ramy

[Fox Two[_2_]]

As both an airline pilot and a glider pilot, I agree completely with the article at the top of this thread. Government agencies around the world are identifying this threat to aviation safety, and are already requiring airlines to find solutions. Some solutions are better than others.

During my last recurrent simulator session, we disconnected the auto throttles and allowed the airspeed to decay until the stick-shaker (stall warning) activated. We then disconnected the autopilot and hand flew the airplane through the standard recovery procedure. Performing this maneuver in the simulator was the FAA-approved answer to the problem of degraded pilot skills.. And in my opinion, it was completely inadequate.

While I'm based in the USA, I live and fly gliders in France. My club, in Fayence, is developing a program for airline pilots to get the additional training this article recommends. The club will work directly with participating airlines to send their pilots to spend a week with us, and complete a program that will be approved by both the participating airline and the government agency.

As it looks right now, the program will have the following features:

1. A day of ground school where we review aerodynamic principles. While we've all learned the basics, for some it has been decades since we've thought about them in depth.

2. Day one in the glider would be a day to get comfortable in the seat. Many airline pilots haven't used the rudder to coordinate flight in decades - in fact, airline pilots only use the rudder to uncoordinated flight to line the plane up with the runway for takeoff and landing. During all other phases of flight, yaw-dampers coordinate the rudder for us.

3. Day two will be the maneuvers day, with slow flight, steep turns, stalls, spins, and recovery from unusual attitudes, including inverted unusual attitudes.

4. The final day will be in close proximity to terrain. Airliners have Ground Proximity Warning Systems that warn us of approaching terrain, and most airline pilots would be very uncomfortable with intentionally approaching a ridge the way glider pilots routinely do. We would hear the "WHOOP-WHOOP PULL UP!" warning in our heads as we have heard so many times in the simulator. A day on the ridge and a flight deeper into the mountains for an airline pilot would be invaluable.

I'm excited to be a part of this program; not only for helping improve the industry's safety, but also to share my passion of soaring with my colleagues.

Chris Fleming