Constant speed prop oil leak

[DP]

I was pre-flighting my plane today until I saw this long red strip
running down the entire length of my prop with a small puddle at the
bottom!!! I hadn't seen it before. It was the first time flying in
three weeks. I was at the plane last week, and didn't see anything,
but the again, I wasn't looking for anything either.......

Needless to say.. no mechanics aaround, I didn't fly it. I cleaned
off the area & prop with gas, and then started it up to see what may
happen. Sure enough, it sprayed a small amount of red hydraulic oil
on the prop and on the top cowl.


Any ideas how serious this is? Am I looking at a complete prop
overhaul? Could it be as simple as a seal that the A &P can replace?
Something in between ???

Thanks in advance !


Don Paquette
PP-ASEL
N9723X

[Peter Duniho]

"DP" > wrote in message
...
> [...] Sure enough, it sprayed a small amount of red hydraulic oil
> on the prop and on the top cowl.

Odd. I would've assumed a 210 would have a similar prop governor design to
other piston singles, using engine oil to control the prop.

Granted, I'm not familiar with the 210 systems. But are you sure that the
hydraulic fluid is coming from the prop governor? Alternatively, are you
sure it's hydraulic fluid? Or can you (or anyone else) confirm that the 210
prop governing system uses hydraulic fluid rather than engine oil?

Pete

[Newps]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...
> "DP" > wrote in message
> ...
> > [...] Sure enough, it sprayed a small amount of red hydraulic oil
> > on the prop and on the top cowl.
>
> Odd. I would've assumed a 210 would have a similar prop governor design
to
> other piston singles, using engine oil to control the prop.

They do. The guts of the prop use a red colored oil so you know when they
start to leak. All constant speed props do this.

[rip]

No, not all.

Newps wrote:

> "Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>"DP" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>>[...] Sure enough, it sprayed a small amount of red hydraulic oil
>>>on the prop and on the top cowl.
>>
>>Odd. I would've assumed a 210 would have a similar prop governor design
>
> to
>
>>other piston singles, using engine oil to control the prop.
>
>
> They do. The guts of the prop use a red colored oil so you know when they
> start to leak. All constant speed props do this.
>
>

[Mike Adams]

"Newps" > wrote:

>
> "Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "DP" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > [...] Sure enough, it sprayed a small amount of red hydraulic oil
>> > on the prop and on the top cowl.
>>
>> Odd. I would've assumed a 210 would have a similar prop governor
>> design
> to
>> other piston singles, using engine oil to control the prop.
>
> They do. The guts of the prop use a red colored oil so you know when
> they start to leak. All constant speed props do this.

I checked into this awhile back and learned the same thing. The McCauley
props didn't have it originally, but there's now a mandatory service
bulletin to fill the hub with the red oil/grease. This provides an
indicator of leaks, but also causes the prop to need service more often. I
was told the grease would stay in place for about 5 years, and then the
prop would need to be overhauled, or resealed again.

Mike

[Jim Weir]

There was an AD several dozen years ago that affected [almost] all McCauley
props. The idea was to fill the hub with red hydraulic fluid so that any leaks
would be immediately apparent to the most casual observer.

Yours is leaking. Seal? Probably. Simple? Nothing on a CS prop is simple.
And, according to part 43, an A&P can't get into the guts of a CS prop by
specific reference.

Sending it to a prop shop is going to be painful, but probably not as painful as
you might expect. Crating and shipping is the royal pain in the ass, and if you
don't mind a crosscountry in the ground vehicle to the prop shop, you are not
looking at a tremendous amount of $$$.

On the other hand, they have to pull it apart anyway, so why not just do the
overhaul for the price of a couple of hours of labor and some dollar parts?

Just my 8% of two bits...

Jim



->
->Any ideas how serious this is? Am I looking at a complete prop
->overhaul? Could it be as simple as a seal that the A &P can replace?
->Something in between ???


Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[[email protected]]

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 17:26:58 -0600, "Newps" >
wrote:

>
>"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...
>> "DP" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > [...] Sure enough, it sprayed a small amount of red hydraulic oil
>> > on the prop and on the top cowl.
>>
>> Odd. I would've assumed a 210 would have a similar prop governor design
>to
>> other piston singles, using engine oil to control the prop.
>
>They do. The guts of the prop use a red colored oil so you know when they
>start to leak. All constant speed props do this.
>

AFAIK, all the McCauley's (oil-filled hubs) use the red oil.
Hartzell's have a "dry" hub, and throw grease. A compact hub Hartzell
throwing engine oil (not red) is rare, but it can happen.

Don't know if anybody else mentioned it, but if you see red oil, you
really oughta get it looked at ASAP.

TC

[Ben Jackson]

In article >,
Jim Weir > wrote:
>There was an AD several dozen years ago that affected [almost] all McCauley
>props. The idea was to fill the hub with red hydraulic fluid so that any leaks
>would be immediately apparent to the most casual observer.

How long does such a prop last if it starts leaking in flight? I've
seen people put up with grease-spitting props for a long time. Even fly
it to the overhaul location. Doesn't seem like you can do that with
oil.

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

[[email protected]]

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 18:17:24 -0700, Jim Weir > wrote:

snipped for length, not for content.

>On the other hand, they have to pull it apart anyway, so why not just do the
>overhaul for the price of a couple of hours of labor and some dollar parts?

Was lucky to have a prop shop next door for a few years, will only add
a few thoughts.

On the older McCauley's, at overhaul, the blades have to be unscrewed
from the ferrules (sp?) and inspected. The longer it has been since
this has been done, the more difficult it is, and the more likely you
are to find problems. The newer McCauley hub designs are stone-simple
and relatively easy to o-haul. The only real down side would be blade
rework/inspection (material removed working toward min specs). I would
agree that on a McCauley in most cases overhaul would be the way to
go.

If you've got a common compact hub Hartzell (not applicable in this
particular case), "overhaul" means they have to roll the blade shanks
near the butt and then polish to remove the roll "marks". There is
also a min. diameter for the blade shanks. As above, there are also
requirements for blade rework (accompanied by another set of min
specs). For 91 operators, I've always recommended a 5 year (max)
tear-down, hub corrosion inspection, and re-seal.

FWIW, there were always a lot fewer scrapped parts coming out of the
McCauley end of the shop than the Hartzell end. Corrosion from
infrequent inspection/improper lubrication being the primary issue.

Never saw a corrosion problem inside the Hartzell props on "working"
airplanes (greased every 100 hrs/2-3 months, o-hauled every 3-4
years). Always thought that a grease job every 100 hrs/6 months
(regardless of hours in the air) would be a good idea for relatively
in-frequent flyers.

TC

snip

[DP]

On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 01:11:32 GMT, Mike Adams
> wrote:

>"Newps" > wrote:
>
>>
>> "Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> "DP" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>> > [...] Sure enough, it sprayed a small amount of red hydraulic oil
>>> > on the prop and on the top cowl.
>>>
>>> Odd. I would've assumed a 210 would have a similar prop governor
>>> design
>> to
>>> other piston singles, using engine oil to control the prop.
>>
>> They do. The guts of the prop use a red colored oil so you know when
>> they start to leak. All constant speed props do this.
>
>I checked into this awhile back and learned the same thing. The McCauley
>props didn't have it originally, but there's now a mandatory service
>bulletin to fill the hub with the red oil/grease. This provides an
>indicator of leaks, but also causes the prop to need service more often. I
>was told the grease would stay in place for about 5 years, and then the
>prop would need to be overhauled, or resealed again.
>


Well, this is starting to make sense then.....it's been 10 years since
the last prop overhaul......


>Mike

Don Paquette
PP-ASEL
N9723X

[Ben Jackson]

In article >,
> wrote:
>Never saw a corrosion problem inside the Hartzell props on "working"
>airplanes (greased every 100 hrs/2-3 months, o-hauled every 3-4
>years). Always thought that a grease job every 100 hrs/6 months
>(regardless of hours in the air) would be a good idea for relatively
>in-frequent flyers.

Should grease be added until it flows cleanly from the removed zerk side,
or just until "some" grease comes out?

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

[[email protected]]

On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 03:15:08 GMT, (Ben Jackson) wrote:

>In article >,
> > wrote:
>>Never saw a corrosion problem inside the Hartzell props on "working"
>>airplanes (greased every 100 hrs/2-3 months, o-hauled every 3-4
>>years). Always thought that a grease job every 100 hrs/6 months
>>(regardless of hours in the air) would be a good idea for relatively
>>in-frequent flyers.
>
>Should grease be added until it flows cleanly from the removed zerk side,
>or just until "some" grease comes out?

Depends on the installation.

What follows is personal preference for servicing Hartzell compact-hub
props, in no way supported by applicable maintenance documentation.
Worth just what you paid for it. Follow at your own risk.

Hartzell useta tell you to add a "little", sorry don't remember the
exact amount. With the guns we used, it worked out to about 4
"pumps".

Main thing to remember is to add the grease s-l-o-w-l-y, never use a
pneumatic-assisted gun.

If a similiar amount of decent looking grease comes out the
opposite/removed zerk, stop.

If after a shot or two, decent looking grease starts coming out, stop.

If after 4 shots, nothing comes out, 4 more, decent looking grease,
stop.

If the grease looks kinda crappy, carefully & slowly add until it
cleans up. Prop probably needs attention (see t-prop below for
exceptions).

In some cases, grease will not come out. This means that you are
filling the "dry" hub with grease. Prop definitely needs attention.

On turbo-prop applications, 8 times out of 10, the grease will be
compromised. Often will expel water with the grease, or show signs of
water contamination. If the prop is serviced on a regular basis,
carefully "flushing" the cavity with clean grease, it will likely
survive the next o-haul without major corrosion issues.

Only other thing notable is that any Hartzell compact hub prop
installed new (or after o-haul) should be run up to TO rpm, exercised
several times, and the hub cavities "topped off" with grease. Not sure
if that's in the "book" or not. In this case, opposite zerk is
removed, and grease added until excess is seen. Can take a little or a
lot.

Finally, if getting a Dy-Bal performed on a H/CH prop, make sure to
grease it first, just in case someone forgot to "top it off".

Hope this helps;

TC

[Rick Durden]

Don,

Ten years since the prop was overhauled??? Yikes.

I think you are getting an overhaul reminder. Could be a seal, could
be a crack...I suspect it's time. While the McCauley's don't have the
AD for overhaul every five years, ten years is a little long to go.
Those whirling chunks of metal are under terrific stress.

BTW, do some pricing on the overhaul. If you hit the situation where
you have to replace blades, also do some comparitive shopping as there
may be deals to be had on the new three-blade props for your airplane.

All the best,
Rick

DP > wrote in message >...
> On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 01:11:32 GMT, Mike Adams
> > wrote:
>
> >"Newps" > wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> "Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >>> "DP" > wrote in message
> >>> ...
> >>> > [...] Sure enough, it sprayed a small amount of red hydraulic oil
> >>> > on the prop and on the top cowl.
> >>>
> >>> Odd. I would've assumed a 210 would have a similar prop governor
> >>> design
> to
> >>> other piston singles, using engine oil to control the prop.
> >>
> >> They do. The guts of the prop use a red colored oil so you know when
> >> they start to leak. All constant speed props do this.
> >
> >I checked into this awhile back and learned the same thing. The McCauley
> >props didn't have it originally, but there's now a mandatory service
> >bulletin to fill the hub with the red oil/grease. This provides an
> >indicator of leaks, but also causes the prop to need service more often. I
> >was told the grease would stay in place for about 5 years, and then the
> >prop would need to be overhauled, or resealed again.
> >
>
>
> Well, this is starting to make sense then.....it's been 10 years since
> the last prop overhaul......
>
>
> >Mike
>
> Don Paquette
> PP-ASEL
> N9723X

[Newps]

Assuming normal wear and tear an overhaul on a 2 blade McCauley for your
typical 182 will run $2K.



"Rick Durden" > wrote in message
m...
> Don,
>
> Ten years since the prop was overhauled??? Yikes.
>
> I think you are getting an overhaul reminder. Could be a seal, could
> be a crack...I suspect it's time. While the McCauley's don't have the
> AD for overhaul every five years, ten years is a little long to go.
> Those whirling chunks of metal are under terrific stress.
>
> BTW, do some pricing on the overhaul. If you hit the situation where
> you have to replace blades, also do some comparitive shopping as there
> may be deals to be had on the new three-blade props for your airplane.

[DP]

On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 13:56:24 -0600, "Newps" >
wrote:

>Assuming normal wear and tear an overhaul on a 2 blade McCauley for your
>typical 182 will run $2K.
>
This was a new prop back in 1994/5 (don't have my logs right here).
The last owner belied it in so the engine was overhauled and a new
prop put on. I didn't see any overhaul tags anywhere for this prop,
but I KNOW nothings been done to it the last three years I've owned
it.

My A&P said today the prop "appears" fine, and it should only need new
seals, but we won't know until Friday when the prop shop takes it
apart. The A&P tells me between 3-5K for an overhaul, and that the
blades are in great shape. We'll see I guess. I'll post more when I
find out more.
>
>"Rick Durden" > wrote in message
m...
>> Don,
>>
>> Ten years since the prop was overhauled??? Yikes.
>>
>> I think you are getting an overhaul reminder. Could be a seal, could
>> be a crack...I suspect it's time. While the McCauley's don't have the
>> AD for overhaul every five years, ten years is a little long to go.
>> Those whirling chunks of metal are under terrific stress.
>>
>> BTW, do some pricing on the overhaul. If you hit the situation where
>> you have to replace blades, also do some comparitive shopping as there
>> may be deals to be had on the new three-blade props for your airplane.
>

Don Paquette
PP-ASEL
N9723X

[DP]

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 22:58:58 GMT, DP > wrote:

follow up

This was a new prop back in 1994/5 (don't have my logs right here).
The last owner bellied it in so the engine was overhauled and a new
prop put on. I didn't see any overhaul tags anywhere for this prop,
but I KNOW nothing has been done to it the last three years I've
owned it.

My A&P said today the prop "appears" fine, and it should only need new
seals, but we won't know until Friday when the prop shop takes it
apart. I took it off the plane this morning, and the prop shop is
picking it up tommorow as they have other to drop off/pick up.

The A&P tells me between 3-5K for an overhaul, and that the blades are
in great shape. We'll see I guess. I'll post more when I find out
more.
Don Paquette
PP-ASEL
N9723X

[Jim Weir]

How do you belly a 182 in?

Jim



DP >
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

->On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 13:56:24 -0600, "Newps" >
->wrote:
->
->>Assuming normal wear and tear an overhaul on a 2 blade McCauley for your
->>typical 182 will run $2K.
->>
->This was a new prop back in 1994/5 (don't have my logs right here).
->The last owner belied it in


Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[Mike O'Malley]

"Jim Weir" > wrote in message
...
> How do you belly a 182 in?
>
> Jim
>

Dunno, but I've seen it done in a Cub. :-(
Ended up being a total loss, too.

--
Mike

[OP]

On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 14:57:20 -0700, Jim Weir > wrote:

>How do you belly a 182 in?
>
>Jim
>

The same way you belly in a 172.... forget to put the gear down. ;-)

Ron Kelley

[Jim Weir]

That's real HARD with the gear down and welded, don'cha know?

Jim


OP >
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

->On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 14:57:20 -0700, Jim Weir > wrote:
->
->>How do you belly a 182 in?
->>
->>Jim
->>
->
->The same way you belly in a 172.... forget to put the gear down. ;-)
->
->Ron Kelley

Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[Newps]

"Jim Weir" > wrote in message
...
> How do you belly a 182 in?

By landing at 10 AGL. Happens all the time.

[John Clonts]

He's flying a 210...

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ C210M

Jim Weir > wrote in message >...
> How do you belly a 182 in?
>
> Jim
>
>
>
> DP >
> shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:
>
> ->On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 13:56:24 -0600, "Newps" >
> ->wrote:
> ->
> ->>Assuming normal wear and tear an overhaul on a 2 blade McCauley for your
> ->>typical 182 will run $2K.
> ->>
> ->This was a new prop back in 1994/5 (don't have my logs right here).
> ->The last owner belied it in
>
>
> Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
> VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
> http://www.rst-engr.com

[OP]

On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 21:58:55 -0700, Jim Weir > wrote:

Older 172's and 182's come in RG versions. Never have seen a 152RG though.

Ron Kelley

>That's real HARD with the gear down and welded, don'cha know?
>
>Jim
>
>
>OP >
>shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:
>
>->On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 14:57:20 -0700, Jim Weir > wrote:
>->
>->>How do you belly a 182 in?
>->>
>->>Jim
>->>
>->
>->The same way you belly in a 172.... forget to put the gear down. ;-)
>->
>->Ron Kelley
>
>Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
>VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
>http://www.rst-engr.com

[John Galban]

OP > wrote in message >...
> On Mon, 19 Apr 2004 21:58:55 -0700, Jim Weir > wrote:
>
> Older 172's and 182's come in RG versions. Never have seen a 152RG though.
>

I have, though it was not intentional and the gear only retracted once :-)

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)