Still have a compass?

[[email protected]]

So your owner's manual states a mechanical compass is required as minimum equipment. Fact is the sailplane has three GPS sources all with separate batteries. Has anyone been extended a "pass" by a FAA inspector on this?

If you license your sailplane experimental...would the FAA still insist the sailplane have a mechanical compass?

A liquid-filled ball compass with a suction cup meets the requirement as written but certainly not as intended.

[Tony[_5_]]

On Wednesday, November 20, 2013 11:00:25 AM UTC-6, wrote:
> So your owner's manual states a mechanical compass is required as minimum equipment. Fact is the sailplane has three GPS sources all with separate batteries. Has anyone been extended a "pass" by a FAA inspector on this?
>
>
>
> If you license your sailplane experimental...would the FAA still insist the sailplane have a mechanical compass?
>
>
>
> A liquid-filled ball compass with a suction cup meets the requirement as written but certainly not as intended.

depends on what experimental category and how the operating limitations are written. I no longer have a compass in the Cherokee as the operating limitations don't require one. The NG-1 has one mostly because I don't have anything better to put in that spot and you can't see it anyway because the stick is in the way. The Cirrus does, since I'm pretty sure the manual requires it.

I don't think that the FAA considers anything on a suction cup to be "installed" and i'm pretty sure they require required equipment to be "installed", like with nuts and bolts and stuff so at least some effort is required to remove it.

[kirk.stant]

I doubt if any FAA inspector would give a "pass" on this, regardless of how useless a compass is in a glider these days. That being said, I mounted and flew with a nice little PZL compass in my LS6 for 12 years - and never looked at it other than for entertainment - until I needed a good place to locate my PowerFlarm butterfly display on the panel.

The compass was gone in less than 30 seconds....

Now, I could mount it back on the top of the panel, right where the towplane sits on tow, but I prefer to see out at potential threats rather than watch numbers float by.

So I keep the little guy in my vehicle, ready to be quickly stuck in the cockpit somewhere if roaming FAA guys are seen...

Kirk
66

[Craig Funston[_2_]]

Possible elimination of both the steam compass and altimeter in your panel. Many of us already have both these functions as part of a vario / flight computer system. https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/prod148289.html
Craig

[Vaughn]

On 11/20/2013 12:00 PM, wrote:
> So your owner's manual states a mechanical compass is required as minimum equipment.
> Fact is the sailplane has three GPS sources all with separate batteries.

It's interesting that 91.205 doesn't use the word "Compass" (though your
POH might). The actual term is "Magnetic Direction Indicator", which a
GPS arguably isn't.

Has anyone been extended a "pass" by a FAA inspector on this?

Does it really matter? The next FAA Inspector might look at exactly
the same thing and give it a "fail".

Vaughn

[Tony[_5_]]

91.205 also doesn't apply to gliders

[Burt Compton - Marfa]

On Wednesday, November 20, 2013 3:46:52 PM UTC-6, Tony wrote:
> 91.205 also doesn't apply to gliders

Correct.
However, an FAA Inspector conducting a "ramp check" a/k/a "surveillance" in FAA speak may not recall this exception (that 91.205 applies to "powered aircraft".)

I've been ramp checked (friendly) a couple of times over the decades and what an Inspector who is not familiar with gliders may look for is a wet compass and the "compass correction card."

Other items are the weight and balance placards that have been rubbed off the cockpit side walls by your knees, the "TSO tags" on your seat belts and your parachute repack card. Some will look for the no-longer-required external data plate. Further, unless stated in your factory flight manual, the flight manual is not required to be onboard -- that's for airplanes and rotorcraft. Back to the factory flight manual -- what it states as required equipment may apply.

Interpretations may vary with FSDO's.
If ramp checked, be polite, especially when they ask for your medical certificate (USA.)
Consider investing in a good canopy cover!

"FAR part 61 shows how you earn your pilot certificate. Part 91 is how they might take it away."

Hope to see you at the SSA Convention in Reno, FEB 25 - March 1, 2014!

[[email protected]]

The Discus 2 only needs a compas for cloud flying per the manual.
Glen

[Tony V]

On 11/20/2013 5:09 PM, Burt Compton - Marfa wrote:

> I've been ramp checked (friendly) a couple of times over the decades and what an Inspector who is not familiar with gliders may look for is a wet compass and the "compass correction card."

On one of my glider's annuals, the A&P noted that the compass correction
card was missing. So, he made one up - literally.

Tony LS6-b

[[email protected]]

Thanks Burt for your input.So a "courtesy" inspection finds no compass and you get written up. What would a "ticket" involve?

Is it feasible to get a waiver from the FAA on the no compass issue?

[Burt Compton - Marfa]

On Wednesday, November 20, 2013 6:37:28 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> Thanks Burt for your input.
So a "courtesy" inspection finds no compass and you get written up.
What would a "ticket" involve?
> Is it feasible to get a waiver from the FAA on the no compass issue?

First, it ain't no "courtesy" inspection. This is a surprise FAA "surveillance" of your documents and your aircraft. It is part of the FAA Inspector's duties and I hear that they are never "off duty."

If all looks good to the FAA Inspector except for a minor item, then hopefully they might make a suggestion for you to fix the item.

Next, I've never received a "ticket". I simply educate myself as to what's required by the FAA rules and keep my towplanes, sailplanes and my airman paperwork in order. While this r.a.s newsgroup can be informative (with some well-meaning advice and occasional loophole probing), it's the FAA rules and your FSDO's policies that are the bottom line. And ask your A&P mechanic with Inspection Authorization (IA.) They sign your aircraft logbook at the annual and want to keep their IA designation.

You want a "waiver"? Go ask your FSDO Airworthiness Inspector, if you dare to open that Pandora's box!
Then again, usually they are helpful. Usually . . . (and let us know if you are granted a waiver for no compass.)

"Compliance" is typically all the FAA will ask for . . . and maybe ground your aircraft in an extreme situation, like if they see dozens of little tiny cracks in your gelcoat (!) I suppose that a ramp check is like a box of chocolates . . . you never know what you are going to get.

[[email protected]]

Thanks Burt for your input.So a "courtesy" inspection finds no compass and you get written up. What would a "ticket" involve?

Is it feasible to get a waiver from the FAA on the no compass issue?

[[email protected]]

Thanks Burt for your input.So a "courtesy" inspection finds no compass and you get written up. What would a "ticket" involve?

Is it feasible to get a waiver from the FAA on the no compass issue?

[[email protected]]

I'm Canadian so yes, I have a compass in my glider. I wish I wasn't required to have one because I would like to use the panel space for something more useful but the operating and flight rules as well as my type certificate mandate one. I put a PAI vertical card unit in so I would at least have a compass rose to refer to. I took a look at the FAR's out of curiosity and was surprised by how little there was in there relating to gliders. As pointed out 91.205 doesn't apply to gliders, is there any section of the FAR's that does spell out anything about required equipment etc.?

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, November 20, 2013 9:00:25 AM UTC-8, wrote:
> So your owner's manual states a mechanical compass is required as minimum equipment. Fact is the sailplane has three GPS sources all with separate batteries. Has anyone been extended a "pass" by a FAA inspector on this?
>
>
>
> If you license your sailplane experimental...would the FAA still insist the sailplane have a mechanical compass?
>
>
>
> A liquid-filled ball compass with a suction cup meets the requirement as written but certainly not as intended.

Jeez, you are all Americans? trained in 2-33's? Look at item 6, page 1-2 in the Schweizer Manual: Instruments - Front only, ASI is required. Additional instruments may be added...
A naturalized citizen and recent CFI-G - which is why I research all this stuff.

[Chris Nicholas[_2_]]

Like the Discus, my Lak 17 POH specifies a compass when cloud flying. Moreover, it stipulates that it must be compensated.

The standard “E2” type compass would meet this requirement, but is almost useless at normal gliding angles of bank. Slow though North, won’t go to South but flicks back. Only roughly right at E and W, if it catches up without lag.

In the UK we used to have a non-compensated compass, by Cook, that could be set to the bank angle and read true except for uncompensated errors. Far more useful, but does not meet the POH requirement,

Bohli can do it like the Cook compass – but I don’t know if Bohli can be compensated.

It is an impractical and almost useless legal requirement, imho.

I don’t know of any ramp check while in cloud, fortunately.

Chris N

[Dan Marotta]

According to the LAK-17a flight manual, only for cloud flying.


> wrote in message
...
> The Discus 2 only needs a compas for cloud flying per the manual.
> Glen

[John Firth[_4_]]

Yes, the COOK compass was/is very useful for coming out of cloud
on the right heading; I still have one on the shelf.
It could be compensated with tiny bar magnets inserted in one
of two orthogonal holes in the bottom. Why bother so long
as it shows the right quadrant?

John F

At 11:57 21 November 2013, Chris Nicholas wrote:
> Like the Discus, my Lak 17 POH specifies a compass when cloud flying.
>More=
>over, it stipulates that it must be compensated.
>
>The standard =93E2=94 type compass would meet this requirement, but is
>alm=
>ost useless at normal gliding angles of bank. Slow though North, won=92t
>go=
> to South but flicks back. Only roughly right at E and W, if it catches
up
>=
>without lag.
>
>In the UK we used to have a non-compensated compass, by Cook, that could
>be=
> set to the bank angle and read true except for uncompensated errors. Far
>m=
>ore useful, but does not meet the POH requirement,=20
>
>Bohli can do it like the Cook compass =96 but I don=92t know if Bohli can
>b=
>e compensated.
>
>It is an impractical and almost useless legal requirement, imho.
>
>I don=92t know of any ramp check while in cloud, fortunately.
>
>Chris N
>
>

[bobmckellar]

If your glider has a standard cert but a compass is not required in your manual, but you want one anyway, could you use a non TSO'd one or even an auto compass?

[son_of_flubber]

My SZD 51-1 POH states "factory equipment necessary for flight" includes
Slip and Turn Indicator EZS-4

Classified Experimental

The only installed slip indicator is the yaw string (and I just passed my annual).

I guess I'm just "sticking it to the man".