Using thermals to climb?

[Kees Mies]

Hi All,

I need some advise.
The summer is starting and my plane is a rotten climber, certainly on
hot days at MTOW.
The best it can do in these conditions is about 300fpm.

My idea is to use thermals to climb (much)faster like gliders do.
Is this a stupid idea?
If my idea is not that stupid how do I find thermals and how to use
them properly?

Maybe I should have asked this on a soaring site but I think there are
a lot of pilots flying both kinds of planes.

BTW, my plane is a MS880 Rallye.

Thanks,
Kees.
D-EDMB.

[EDR]

In article >, Kees Mies
> wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I need some advise.
> The summer is starting and my plane is a rotten climber, certainly on
> hot days at MTOW.
> The best it can do in these conditions is about 300fpm.
> My idea is to use thermals to climb (much)faster like gliders do.
> Is this a stupid idea?

Absolutely not.

> If my idea is not that stupid how do I find thermals and how to use
> them properly?

I don't go looking for them, but when I feel them, I use them. I start
a tight circle until I feel it give out.

> Maybe I should have asked this on a soaring site but I think there are
> a lot of pilots flying both kinds of planes.

Soaring pilots will tell you to look for plowed fields, clouds,
anyplace the ground will be warmer than its surroundings.

[Thomas Borchert]

Kees,

> My idea is to use thermals to climb (much)faster like gliders do.
> Is this a stupid idea?
> If my idea is not that stupid how do I find thermals and how to use
> them properly?
>

It's a great idea to have that in your bag of tricks. OTOH, consider
first that on a day with 300-feet-thermals, you might also end up in a
downdraft that you can't outclimb, so your safest option might be to
stay on the ground. Also, I take it you are leaning properly AT FULL
POWER in those high density altitude situations to get the most out of
your engine?

That said, just wait until you feel (and possibly see on the VSI) a
strong updraft, then start tight turns, preferably to the side were the
updraft lifted one of your wings (that's were it will be stronger). The
goal here is to circle the center of the updraft. Anything below 25 to
30 degrees bank will probably result in circles that are too wide. You
should be at Vy, but consider stall speed increases with bank angle.

Stay safe!

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Teacherjh]

Powered planes do not have the glide ratio of a glider. I've never thermalled
in a powered plane (or a glider for that matter) but I wonder if you can get
enough out of one in a 150.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Peter Duniho]

"Teacherjh" > wrote in message
...
> Powered planes do not have the glide ratio of a glider. I've never
thermalled
> in a powered plane (or a glider for that matter) but I wonder if you can
get
> enough out of one in a 150.

I don't think he's talking about shutting the engine off. With the engine
running, a C150 has a MUCH better glide ratio than that of a glider. Flying
in a rising thermal will only improve things.

Pete

[Robert M. Gary]

I do this in my Mooney when crossing the Sierra Nevadas. I can often
get 2,000 fpm above 10,000 MSL. I'm not too scientific about it. I
just fly until the plane starts to really climb, then I circle around
that area. Remember, all up drafts have a sibling downdraft somewhere.
Get some extra altitude because there is usually some place where you
can't hold altitude. In the Mooney I can fly through these areas
pretty fast. I also carry O2 when Summer flying the Sierras. Expect
some bumps.

-Robert


(Kees Mies) wrote in message >...
> Hi All,
>
> I need some advise.
> The summer is starting and my plane is a rotten climber, certainly on
> hot days at MTOW.
> The best it can do in these conditions is about 300fpm.
>
> My idea is to use thermals to climb (much)faster like gliders do.
> Is this a stupid idea?
> If my idea is not that stupid how do I find thermals and how to use
> them properly?
>
> Maybe I should have asked this on a soaring site but I think there are
> a lot of pilots flying both kinds of planes.
>
> BTW, my plane is a MS880 Rallye.
>
> Thanks,
> Kees.
> D-EDMB.

[Cecil Chapman]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
om...
> I do this in my Mooney when crossing the Sierra Nevada. I can often
> get 2,000 fpm above 10,000 MSL. I'm not too scientific about it. I
> just fly until the plane starts to really climb, then I circle around
> that area. Remember, all up drafts have a sibling downdraft somewhere.
> Get some extra altitude because there is usually some place where you
> can't hold altitude. In the Mooney I can fly through these areas
> pretty fast. I also carry O2 when Summer flying the Sierras. Expect
> some bumps.
>
> -Robert

I know a pilot who would fly his C-152II (solo and light) over to Reno on a
fairly regular basis. He often talked of using some of the summer thermals
that would bubble up under the 'cloud streets' that would form on his way
through Sacramento. He eventually gave up the pursuit because in the
summers he would spend great amounts of time in a slow shallow circular
climb (not in a thermal) trying to gain enough altitude to fly back over the
Sierras along I-80. I remember raising more than an eyebrow when he first
mentioned this, but he pointed out that he always traveled light (just him
and a light bag) and that in terms of power to size when compared to a C-172
that he (in his C152II) had 'more' horsepower relative to the size of the
aircraft he flew.

His story made the hairs on my neck, stand on end (I've only been over to
Truckee airport in a C172 with one other passenger (a CFI that I was doing a
high altitude checkout with) and the 'climb performance' was certainly
different than what I had been used to in the comparative 'flatlands' that I
normally flew).

I do want to make it a point to take one of those high-altitude courses in
Colorado for a mini-vacation some time. I'd really like to know more than I
do (though I've read Sparky's book, Mountain Flying and a host of others on
the same subject),,, I guess I want more practical experience (with an
instructor, nearby) at the altitudes of some of those airports in Colorado.

--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL
Student-IASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -

[Michael]

(Kees Mies) wrote
> My idea is to use thermals to climb (much)faster like gliders do.
> Is this a stupid idea?

Not at all. Do it all the time in similar circumstances.

> If my idea is not that stupid how do I find thermals and how to use
> them properly?

Based on your registration, I assume you are German. Suggest you read
Cross Country Soaring (Streckensegelflug, I think - does that
translate correctly?) by Reichmann. It's probably overkill, but it's
a wonderfully comprehensive book that goes into a lot of depth about
soaring meteorology.

Once you have some idea of where and when you can expect lift, just
practice. A few flighs in a glider also wouldn't hurt.

Michael

[Maule Driver]

I used to soar quite a bit. You can definitely get some help from thermals
if you pay attention to the VSI and your sense of acceleration (i.e. your
butt). In fact, learning to correlate the VSI with the 'seat of your pants'
is key. The VSI is showing you what happened seconds ago. You feel the
acceleration long before. Reacting to the acceleration and then calibrating
what you feel with the VSI is how it's done.

I wouldn't advocate trying to circle much. It can be done but unless you
are trying to clear some mountains, I wouldn't bother trading forward
progress for height. Many thermals in most places are going to be too small
to do it effectively.

In a long cross country climb, you can do several things:
1) When encountering lift, pull up and slow down to the slowest speed you
feel comfortable at or above Vy (engine cooling and visibility may be 2
limiting factors). Conversely, when encountering sink, let the plane speed
up and get thru it as fast as possible.
2) When encountering lift, note which wing rises. Immediately put that wing
down a few degrees and turn slightly in that direction. It is most likely
where stronger lift may be.

The ground is of little use at normal cruise/climb altitudes but pay
attention to the clouds. Puffy, fresh growing cumulus clouds have thermals
under them. Often, slight route changes based on the clouds will put you in
more lift than sink. If the clouds are lined up, it's a cloud street and if
it's aligned with your direction of flight, the gods are smiling at you. If
you hit it right, you'll be at cloud base before you know it.

In cruise, instead of maintaining altitude exactly, allowing the lift to
lift you while slowing a bit, and diving thru the sink is more efficient.

The interesting part is that if you fly accurate altitudes and correct your
direction with a little sloppiness, you will tend to fly in the worst air in
the most inefficient manner. That is, you'll tend to find and fly in
sinking air. What you want to do is turn towards the areas that are pushing
you away and pull up when a thermal kicks you up and push forward when you
are sinking.

Reichmann's book is one of the definitive works but way too much for what
we're talking about here. A soaring pilot with someone with some glider
x-country experience would be more instructive.


"Kees Mies" > wrote in message
om...
> Hi All,
>
> I need some advise.
> The summer is starting and my plane is a rotten climber, certainly on
> hot days at MTOW.
> The best it can do in these conditions is about 300fpm.
>
> My idea is to use thermals to climb (much)faster like gliders do.
> Is this a stupid idea?
> If my idea is not that stupid how do I find thermals and how to use
> them properly?
>
> Maybe I should have asked this on a soaring site but I think there are
> a lot of pilots flying both kinds of planes.
>
> BTW, my plane is a MS880 Rallye.
>
> Thanks,
> Kees.
> D-EDMB.

[Dean Wilkinson]

Go for it. During my initial training in Phoenix, my instructor and I
did some thermaling in a Cessna 172. We obtained a +500 fpm rate of
climb with the engine at full idle while circling in a thermal.

Dean

(Kees Mies) wrote in message >...
> Hi All,
>
> I need some advise.
> The summer is starting and my plane is a rotten climber, certainly on
> hot days at MTOW.
> The best it can do in these conditions is about 300fpm.
>
> My idea is to use thermals to climb (much)faster like gliders do.
> Is this a stupid idea?
> If my idea is not that stupid how do I find thermals and how to use
> them properly?
>
> Maybe I should have asked this on a soaring site but I think there are
> a lot of pilots flying both kinds of planes.
>
> BTW, my plane is a MS880 Rallye.
>
> Thanks,
> Kees.
> D-EDMB.

[Blanche]

www.coloradopilots.org

Two Colorado Mountain flying courses this summer, both at APA (just
SE of Denver in the 'burbs). That's the full-day ground class. The
practical is arranged with an instructor for another time.

[Cecil Chapman]

Thanks!!!! I'm checking it out. Did have one question though you said that
there's a 'practical' exam for mountain flying?

--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL
Student-IASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -

[Michael]

Thomas Borchert > wrote
> It's a great idea to have that in your bag of tricks. OTOH, consider
> first that on a day with 300-feet-thermals, you might also end up in a
> downdraft that you can't outclimb, so your safest option might be to
> stay on the ground.

That's ALWAYS the safest option.

You know, some of us fly entirely without engines - and we fly cross
country. We're literally counting on finding the lift and avoiding
the sink to avoid landing in a field or worse - because we can't climb
at all, even in still or slightly rising air. By comparison, flying
something that can actually climb 300 fpm seems like a huge luxury,
and dramatically safer.

> You
> should be at Vy, but consider stall speed increases with bank angle.

Actually, Vy is probably too fast. In general, you need to fly just a
few knots over stall and in a fairly tight bank to stay in most
thermals. Since the air is turbulent, an incipient stall is not a
matter of if but when. Get comfortable with it. When you feel the
bit of the stall, release back pressure slightly until you feel the
plane flying again.

Michael

[Richard Hertz]

It isn't the glide ratio that one is concerned with in thermals - rather the
minimum sink rate and the speed for minimum sink.

Usually thermals are fairly localized and glider pilots work a lot to stay
in them. Turns are routinely done by banking between 30 and 60 degrees at
slow relatively slow speeds.

To do this right you need to find your minimum sink speed. Take some glider
lessons and you may get good enough to make it worth worrying about, but I
doubt you can make it work well in a power plane.

If on the other hand you can find some nice ridge lift or wave, then you can
save some gas.

The varios on gliders are generally quite sensitive and finding a thermal in
a power plane is not going to be trivial. Especially if you want to go
someplace.

My advice is to forget about it, but if you are curious, take up soaring -
it is a lot of fun and will improve your piloting skills and knowledge.


"Teacherjh" > wrote in message
...
> Powered planes do not have the glide ratio of a glider. I've never
thermalled
> in a powered plane (or a glider for that matter) but I wonder if you can
get
> enough out of one in a 150.
>
> Jose
>
> --
> (for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Cecil Chapman]

Oops... just got it,,, no need to explain.... You were simply referring to
ACTUAL flying portion ('practical', so-to-speak, is set-up separately).

--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL
Student-IASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -
"Cecil Chapman" > wrote in message
om...
> Thanks!!!! I'm checking it out. Did have one question though you said
that
> there's a 'practical' exam for mountain flying?
>
> --
> --
> =-----
> Good Flights!
>
> Cecil
> PP-ASEL
> Student-IASEL
>
> Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
> checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
> Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com
>
> "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
> - Antoine de Saint-Exupery -
>
> "We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
> this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
> - Cecil Day Lewis -
>
>

[d b]

It probably isn't worth it if you are going cross country. It is very
much worth it if you are staying local and have some reason to
get to altitude.

On climb out cross country, speed up when you are not in lift,
slow down in lift. Go where the bumpy air is (under the clouds).
The reason to speed up when in the sink is to get through it
as soon as possible. The opposite when in lift. Full throttle all
of the time.

At cruise, don't drive down the non-cloud streets. Drive down
the cloud streets. The blank area is where the sink is.

Power plane drivers often don't like bumpy rides, so prefer to
fly in the sink and then complain about their draggy plane or
sour engine. In power planes, it is considered bad form to
deviate from your altitude. This is opposite of what is needed
to get there the fastest on the least gas. When in sink, you
want to lose more altitude (go faster), then gain it all back
(go slower, pull higher) when you hit lift. The instructors
and check pilots would take a very dim view of sailplane
techniques. Efficiency loses on this one.

As far as recognizing thermals, you really should get some
glider pilot help. It can be done, although not as well as in
a glider with accurate instrumentation. Power plane instrumentation
sucks. The lead/lag in the rate of climb is really bad. The nudge in
the seat combined with an anticipation of rate of climb indication
is your instrumentation system in the power plane. Don't even
bother to circle if you are uncomfortable with banks in excess of
45 degrees within a knot or two of stall buffet. 60 degrees is common.
This is really steep. Most pilots overestimate how steeply they
are banking.


In article >,
(Kees Mies) wrote:
>Hi All,
>
>I need some advise.
>The summer is starting and my plane is a rotten climber, certainly on
>hot days at MTOW.
>The best it can do in these conditions is about 300fpm.
>
>My idea is to use thermals to climb (much)faster like gliders do.
>Is this a stupid idea?
>If my idea is not that stupid how do I find thermals and how to use
>them properly?
>
>Maybe I should have asked this on a soaring site but I think there are
>a lot of pilots flying both kinds of planes.
>
>BTW, my plane is a MS880 Rallye.
>
>Thanks,
>Kees.
>D-EDMB.

[David Reinhart]

I don't know where you live (my guess is Germany) but the technique you
describe works fine in the Southwest desert of the United States. I used
to be able to get 500 fpm up in a 172 from the thermals around my old home
patch in the Mojave desert.

Dave Reinhart


Kees Mies wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I need some advise.
> The summer is starting and my plane is a rotten climber, certainly on
> hot days at MTOW.
> The best it can do in these conditions is about 300fpm.
>
> My idea is to use thermals to climb (much)faster like gliders do.
> Is this a stupid idea?
> If my idea is not that stupid how do I find thermals and how to use
> them properly?
>
> Maybe I should have asked this on a soaring site but I think there are
> a lot of pilots flying both kinds of planes.
>
> BTW, my plane is a MS880 Rallye.
>
> Thanks,
> Kees.
> D-EDMB.

[BTIZ]

I use thermals to climb all the time.. that or ridge lift.. but then again
I'm a glider pilot and glider tow pilot. When towing,.. I use the thermals
to help the climb.. with a standard VSI they are easy to locate.. not only
seat of the pants lifting sensation.. but also an increase in the VSI from
500fpm to 1000fpm or better.. depending on thermal strength..

With a good glider pilot behind me, we'll turn in the thermal at up to 45
degrees of bank to help the climb.. and if the thermal is that good the
glider pilot will release and I'll head back down for another glider.

With a student or novice pilot.. I'll go straight through the thermal, then
mild circle out away from the thermal and then back through it wings level..
marking the thermal for the glider pilot.. normally after about the 3rd pass
through a thermal and at least 2000ft AGL. The glider pilot will get off to
test his mettle with mother nature.

BT

"Kees Mies" > wrote in message
om...
> Hi All,
>
> I need some advise.
> The summer is starting and my plane is a rotten climber, certainly on
> hot days at MTOW.
> The best it can do in these conditions is about 300fpm.
>
> My idea is to use thermals to climb (much)faster like gliders do.
> Is this a stupid idea?
> If my idea is not that stupid how do I find thermals and how to use
> them properly?
>
> Maybe I should have asked this on a soaring site but I think there are
> a lot of pilots flying both kinds of planes.
>
> BTW, my plane is a MS880 Rallye.
>
> Thanks,
> Kees.
> D-EDMB.

[BTIZ]

I should add.. that correct.. where there is lift.. there has to be an equal
amount of sink somewhere... I've also been towing through 400fpm sink...
neither I nor the glider could climb.. we were actually loosing altitude..
if I'd drop the glider, full power would have barely maintained altitude.
And no.. not rotor.. not wave.. but a down draft.. or sink.. near a thermal
we had just gone through at 1200fpm up.. was working to get back to that
thermal.. and the shear between the up and down was extreme..

As soon as we were firmly established in the lift again.. the glider
released.. and I went back to the sink to help my descent back to the
field.. did not see the glider again for about 3 hours.. he was up and
gone..

BT

"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:4Jkhc.17907$432.9533@fed1read01...
> I use thermals to climb all the time.. that or ridge lift.. but then again
> I'm a glider pilot and glider tow pilot. When towing,.. I use the thermals
> to help the climb.. with a standard VSI they are easy to locate.. not only
> seat of the pants lifting sensation.. but also an increase in the VSI from
> 500fpm to 1000fpm or better.. depending on thermal strength..
>
> With a good glider pilot behind me, we'll turn in the thermal at up to 45
> degrees of bank to help the climb.. and if the thermal is that good the
> glider pilot will release and I'll head back down for another glider.
>
> With a student or novice pilot.. I'll go straight through the thermal,
then
> mild circle out away from the thermal and then back through it wings
level..
> marking the thermal for the glider pilot.. normally after about the 3rd
pass
> through a thermal and at least 2000ft AGL. The glider pilot will get off
to
> test his mettle with mother nature.
>
> BT
>
> "Kees Mies" > wrote in message
> om...
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I need some advise.
> > The summer is starting and my plane is a rotten climber, certainly on
> > hot days at MTOW.
> > The best it can do in these conditions is about 300fpm.
> >
> > My idea is to use thermals to climb (much)faster like gliders do.
> > Is this a stupid idea?
> > If my idea is not that stupid how do I find thermals and how to use
> > them properly?
> >
> > Maybe I should have asked this on a soaring site but I think there are
> > a lot of pilots flying both kinds of planes.
> >
> > BTW, my plane is a MS880 Rallye.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Kees.
> > D-EDMB.
>
>

[mike regish]

Some thermals go up at 2000 feet per minute. Just add that to you climb
while you're in it.

I got a better than 2000 fpm climb a couple weeks ago on take off. Didn't
turn in it, but it lasted for a good 15 or 20 seconds.

Just be careful you're not climbing in a horizontal gust. These can be
deceiving and if you slow down to climb in it, you could find yourself out
of airspeed when the gust ends.

mike regish

"Teacherjh" > wrote in message
...
> Powered planes do not have the glide ratio of a glider. I've never
thermalled
> in a powered plane (or a glider for that matter) but I wonder if you can
get
> enough out of one in a 150.
>
> Jose
>
> --
> (for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Dave S]

Im surprised Dylan hasnt weighed in yet... He used to talk about doing
it (somewhat) in the Cessna 140 he used to be part owner in. He was a
member at a local soaring club as well as the flying club that I had met
him in

His page, which is not very up to date, is
http://www.alioth.net/flying/soaring/index.html and may have some
information with regards to thermalling. The main concern as I've had
related to me is that to stay in the thermal you need to fly tight and
slow. Remember your stall speeds in steep banks/high G turns go UP.

My best guess would be to try a best angle of climb tactic, with short
field flap settings and give it a go.

As for doing this on a XC trip, I dont see a whole lot of point to it..
unless you are in SLC and need to climb up out of the bowl there.

Dave

Kees Mies wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I need some advise.
> The summer is starting and my plane is a rotten climber, certainly on
> hot days at MTOW.
> The best it can do in these conditions is about 300fpm.
>
> My idea is to use thermals to climb (much)faster like gliders do.
> Is this a stupid idea?
> If my idea is not that stupid how do I find thermals and how to use
> them properly?
>
> Maybe I should have asked this on a soaring site but I think there are
> a lot of pilots flying both kinds of planes.
>
> BTW, my plane is a MS880 Rallye.
>
> Thanks,
> Kees.
> D-EDMB.

[Thomas Borchert]

Richard,

> My advice is to forget about it,
>

Well, on a hot day in Prescott, AZ, it made my day in a BE35 - so I
wouldn't know why to forget about it.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Michael,

> That's ALWAYS the safest option.

Not if you drive instead <g>.

>
> You know, some of us fly entirely without engines - and we fly cross
> country.
>

You know, I hold a glider rating...

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Kees Mies]

(Kees Mies) wrote in message >...

Hi again,

Thanks for the information about using thermals.
I don't think I'm going to try it.

Let me explain.
I asked this question because I've a personal danger zone that goes
from 1000ft AGL to 2000 ft AGL.
Lots of light aircraft use these heights over here, normally I cruise
at 2000ft to 2500ft AGL. I bit quieter and still low enough to see
details on the ground.
I'm one of those (rare???) pilots that solely navigate by watch,
compass and map.
Well, I've to because my plane doesn't have things like VOR or ADF.
The original plan was to stay at 1000ft, find a thermal en route and
soar to my cruising height.

After reading all the replies it means making steep turns close to
stall speed at low altitude.
Sounds too dangerous to me, I'm not going to endanger a passenger,
people on the ground or myself just to climb a bit faster.
Did something like this as a student pilot on a solo XC to another
airfield.
Turned from base to final, to prevent an overshoot I pushed a bit
harder. Hearing a stall warning at 400ft above ground in a 45 deg turn
is something one does not forget easily.
Anyway, I didn't end up as a statistic and I learned from it.

I've to learn to be more patient when climbing.

Happy landings,
Kees.
D-EDMB

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Kees Mies wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I need some advise.
> The summer is starting and my plane is a rotten climber, certainly on
> hot days at MTOW.
> The best it can do in these conditions is about 300fpm.
>
> My idea is to use thermals to climb (much)faster like gliders do.
> Is this a stupid idea?

No, not at all.

Get some experience in a glider so you know and have felt the various
sources of lift that are available.

I used to own a half share in a Cessna 140. It had an 85hp engine and a
cruise prop. Even at sea level, getting much more than 300fpm climb was
asking a lot in that plane.

I flew that plane coast to coast in the United States. That meant doing
things like crossing the Sierra Nevadas, and taking off from airfields
at nearly 6000' MSL. Knowing what sources of lift were avalable (and as
a corollary, where the sink was likely to be) really helped climb. For
example, coming out of SLC and needing to be above the mountains by
Provo, I used upslope lift to help the climb rate. Doing a photo shoot
over the Wasatch range was a much quicker job because there were some
good thermals, and the C140 can be flown slow enough to take good
advantage of them.

If you are flying a plane without much power, glider experience can come
in very handy indeed especially at high altitude.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Todd Pattist]

"Richard Hertz" > wrote:

>It isn't the glide ratio that one is concerned with in thermals - rather the
>minimum sink rate and the speed for minimum sink.

You've got too much glider time :-) In a glider, you want
to thermal near min sink speed. In an airplane, you want
max excess power, and that's Vy, max rate of climb.
However, at Vy in most aircraft, your turn radius will be
quite a bit larger than most thermals, so you end up trading
off turn radius for climb rate if you're going to turn in
thermals. You'd probably only want to do that if you're
trying to get over a mountain pass. As others have posted,
most of the time you just want to use the free energy that
thermals give and to do that, you slow way down and spend
time in rising air, dive through sinking air and fly the
cloud streets.

>
>Usually thermals are fairly localized and glider pilots work a lot to stay
>in them. Turns are routinely done by banking between 30 and 60 degrees at
>slow relatively slow speeds.
>
>To do this right you need to find your minimum sink speed. Take some glider
>lessons and you may get good enough to make it worth worrying about, but I
>doubt you can make it work well in a power plane.
>
>If on the other hand you can find some nice ridge lift or wave, then you can
>save some gas.
>
>The varios on gliders are generally quite sensitive and finding a thermal in
>a power plane is not going to be trivial. Especially if you want to go
>someplace.
>
>My advice is to forget about it, but if you are curious, take up soaring -
>it is a lot of fun and will improve your piloting skills and knowledge.

It's an effective technique for increasing cruise speed,
reducing gas usage and for climbing to cross high terrain.
Todd Pattist
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[Todd Pattist]

(Kees Mies) wrote:

>After reading all the replies it means making steep turns close to
>stall speed at low altitude.

You don't need to turn in thermals to use them. Just slow
way down when you feel the upward acceleration, speed up as
you enter descending air and follow the cloud streets as you
get higher.

Todd Pattist
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[Martin Hellman]

(Kees Mies) wrote in message >...
> My idea is to use thermals to climb (much)faster like gliders do.
> Is this a stupid idea?
> If my idea is not that stupid how do I find thermals and how to use
> them properly?

To add to the replies already on this interesting thread:

1. As Kees noted in his last post here, efficient thermalling requires
steep banking near stall. If you do that, make sure your ship is
benign in its stall or that you have plenty of altitude to recover and
know how. Playing areas of lift by slowing down and then speeding up
in sink will make for a more efficient flight without thermalling,
though here too "slowing down" can mean approaching stall. I
frequently "commute" between the San Francisco Bay Area and Minden, NV
in a motor glider and have noticed frequent long wave type lift across
the Central Valley. I'll go for about a mile with about 100 fpm (1/2
m/sec) lift -- not enough to climb (engine off), but enough to more
than double my normal glide ratio (50:1) -- followed by the same
distance with about 100 fpm of sink. Slowing down and speeding up
stretches my glide and reduces my engine run times a bit. Plus it's
fun.

2. Someone noted the need for a variometer as opposed to a
rate-of-climb meter. While the faster response time of the vario would
help, I was able to thermal my glider when I first got it (sans vario)
using just the ASI. Watch for a sudden increase in air speed to
indicate entering lift. The seat of the pant feel and which wing
lifts, as already noted, also help.

3. Try to learn where the "house thermals" are. Glider operations,
which fly out of the same airport all year, learn where these are and
convey the info to tow and glider pilots. While there may not be a
glider operation at your airport, there are likely to be house
thermals that you can learn about.

4. A lot depends on where you are. During the summer, lift at Minden
can be over 1000 fpm, but on the same day, there can be almost no lift
at my home base (Hayward, near Oakland and SFO). The marine air in the
Bay Area kills most thermals.

5. Centering a thermal is a skill, though one more easily learned than
most people (myself included) might think before they learn it.
Levelling out for a few seconds when you enter the area of increased
lift is the usual method, but in really small thermals (or if your
stall speed is so high you can't stay in a normal sized one) there is
a seemingly contradictory technique that also works. As soon as you
hit the lift, bank steeply (but don't stall/spin!) and raise the nose
agressively (ditto), much as a swallow might do. This keeps you in the
area of lift longer. And, since you can't stay in it for the whole
circle, you don't want to be centered since that would put you into
reduced lift or, worse, sink. Being centered while going down isn't
the goal.

Hope this helps.

Martin

[Shirley]

wrote:

>1. As Kees noted in his last post here,
>efficient thermalling requires steep
>banking near stall.

Almost all replies to this topic have given the impression that the steeper the
better -- that's not *always* true. Depending on the size and strength of the
thermal, sometimes banked a little less makes more effective use of the lift,
exposing more of the surface of the aircraft to the rising air.

--Shirley
Glider Pilot

[Maule Driver]

Yes. But if climbing while making cross country speed and distance is the
objective, the best climb is accomplished with wings level. A powered
glider of *any* sort is capable of exploiting this when going cross country.

Just as any cross country glider pilot strives to 'climb straight ahead' as
much as possible, it is an optimal technique for a powered a/c in cc flight.
In point-to-point flight in a field of thermals, the fastest or most
efficient path is *not* a straight line or is it in level flight.

Go glider pilots!!

"Shirley" > wrote in message
...
> wrote:
>
> >1. As Kees noted in his last post here,
> >efficient thermalling requires steep
> >banking near stall.
>
> Almost all replies to this topic have given the impression that the
steeper the
> better -- that's not *always* true. Depending on the size and strength of
the
> thermal, sometimes banked a little less makes more effective use of the
lift,
> exposing more of the surface of the aircraft to the rising air.
>
> --Shirley
> Glider Pilot
>
>

[Dylan Smith]

In article >,
Martin Hellman wrote:
> at my home base (Hayward, near Oakland and SFO). The marine air in the
> Bay Area kills most thermals.

You can say that again. Living on a 14nm x 30nm island, you can imagine
just how much marine air we have.

However, I have had some long soaring flights here in the Blanik. I just
bought a share in a Schleicher Ka-8 (which will happilly thermal in a
fairly tight turn at 35 knots), and I expect to be able to do my Silver
duration this summer without too much trouble :-) People often are
attracted to these hot glass ships, but forget how much fun and how good
a wooden glider soars.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Thomas Borchert]

Dylan,

> Schleicher Ka-8 (which will happilly thermal
>

Ka-8 and "happily thermal" in the same sentence - wow! ;-)

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Thomas Borchert wrote:
>> Schleicher Ka-8 (which will happilly thermal
>>
>
> Ka-8 and "happily thermal" in the same sentence - wow! ;-)

And what's wrong with that?

You're not one of those TINSFOS (There Is No Substitute For Span) crowd
ar you? Are you!?

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[Thomas Borchert]

Dylan,

> You're not one of those TINSFOS (There Is No Substitute For Span) crowd
> ar you? Are you!?
>

I spent too many hours in Ka8s to be one. They are great - if you don't
want to go somewhere.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Thomas Borchert wrote:
>> You're not one of those TINSFOS (There Is No Substitute For Span) crowd
>> ar you? Are you!?
>>
> I spent too many hours in Ka8s to be one. They are great - if you don't
> want to go somewhere.

Well, our island is barely long enough to do your Silver distance, so
that's generally not a problem here :-)

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[CV]

Kees Mies wrote:
> My idea is to use thermals to climb (much)faster like gliders do.
> Is this a stupid idea?
> If my idea is not that stupid how do I find thermals and how to use
> them properly?

Well, you have had quite a number of good answers already.

I'd just like to point out the safety considerations, collision
avoidance in particular, if we get powered aircraft looking around
for thermals, and perhaps circling in them while there are also
gliders in the area doing the same thing.

The visibility in turns out of your average light power plane
is way inferior to gliders (in your case, with the Rallye
you may be a little better off on this than the Cessnas and
Cherokees but still), your airspeed will be different than
that of the gliders and you might be less maneuverable in
that situation (turning tight and just above stall speed).

Assuming you want to use the thermals to supplement your
engine, as you said, you will be climbing under power, at a
higher climb rate than the gliders and coming at them from
below, where it is more difficult for them to spot you.

So if you plan to use thermals, make sure you are aware of where
the gliding sites are, in what areas gliders are likely to be
flying, and remember to keep a good lookout, even more than usual.

Gliders are much more difficult to spot in the air than power
planes. They will normally see you more easily than you will
see them.

It would also be good to find out what frequencies are used by
the gliders, listen in and let them know where you are.

Not that I'd like to discourage you, but this is something
I thought should definitely be mentioned.

As somebody else alredy said, it is a very good idea to take
some gliding lessons - I agree with that, and would add that
it is good for safety as well.

Cheers CV

[Tony Cox]

"CV" > wrote in message
...
>
> It would also be good to find out what frequencies are used by
> the gliders, listen in and let them know where you are.
>

Where can we get a list of these frequencies? Are they published?

There's a glider area near me (Jean, NV) & I was surprised
to find that they weren't using the frequency of the nearby
airport. But of course I can't remember what that frequency
was....

Great summary, btw. Lots of good stuff to think about...

[Todd Pattist]

"Tony Cox" > wrote:

>Where can we get a list of these frequencies? Are they published?
>
>There's a glider area near me (Jean, NV) & I was surprised
>to find that they weren't using the frequency of the nearby
>airport. But of course I can't remember what that frequency
>was....

123.3 and 123.5 are standard for gliders. They're used for
contests, local flying and XC.
Todd Pattist
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[Shirley]

CV wrote:

>Assuming you want to use the thermals to supplement
>your engine, as you said, you will be climbing under
>power, **at a higher climb rate than the gliders**

I wouldn't be so sure about that. :-)

>and coming at them from below, where it is
>more difficult for them to spot you.

Definitely more difficult if you're below, not to mention understandably
extremely unnerving to be able to hear a powered aircraft below and not be able
to see it.

>So if you plan to use thermals, make sure you are
>aware of where the gliding sites are, in what areas
>gliders are likely to be flying, and remember to keep
>a good lookout, even more than usual.

Thank you! I'd like to add...even if you are NOT planning to use thermals, if
you just happen to be flying through or past a glider site, please take the
time to look at the AFD or Flight Guide for specifics such as the location of
aerobatic boxes that may be in use while you're passing through (bad idea) and
any other info on the preferred path for powered aircraft during hours of
glider operation.

>It would also be good to find out what frequencies
>are used by the gliders, listen in and let them know
>where you are.

Never hurts, but not all gliders even have radios, so don't assume that because
you've called, they know you're there. Again, no substitute for (a) having
researched how and where they operate and where they'd like you (in a powered
aircraft) to fly during their hours of operation, and (b) using common sense
about flying through an area in use by another type of aircraft.

While the original poster mentioned gliders, I may be wrong, but I don't think
he was talking about using the SAME thermals simultaneously with gliders.

--Shirley
Glider Pilot

[BTIZ]

Tony, it's 122.9 and we live on that freq..

BT

"Tony Cox" > wrote in message
link.net...
> "CV" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > It would also be good to find out what frequencies are used by
> > the gliders, listen in and let them know where you are.
> >
>
> Where can we get a list of these frequencies? Are they published?
>
> There's a glider area near me (Jean, NV) & I was surprised
> to find that they weren't using the frequency of the nearby
> airport. But of course I can't remember what that frequency
> was....
>
> Great summary, btw. Lots of good stuff to think about...
>
>
>

[BTIZ]

only use 123.3 and 123.5 when out on cross country..
we use the local airport freq (0L7, Jean NV 122.9) when staying in the
valley

but not all gliders carry radios...

BT



"Todd Pattist" > wrote in message
...
> "Tony Cox" > wrote:
>
> >Where can we get a list of these frequencies? Are they published?
> >
> >There's a glider area near me (Jean, NV) & I was surprised
> >to find that they weren't using the frequency of the nearby
> >airport. But of course I can't remember what that frequency
> >was....
>
> 123.3 and 123.5 are standard for gliders. They're used for
> contests, local flying and XC.
> Todd Pattist
> (Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)
> ___
> Make a commitment to learn something from every flight.
> Share what you learn.

[Todd Pattist]

"BTIZ" > wrote:

>only use 123.3 and 123.5 when out on cross country..
>we use the local airport freq (0L7, Jean NV 122.9) when staying in the
>valley

That's interesting. I presume 122.9's the CTAF freq for
Jean? Around here (Northeast U.S.), gliders will seldom use
CTAF unless they are entering the pattern for landing, so it
would be hard to determine there was any glider flying with
that freq. It's way too crowded a freq. for typical glider
communications, so gliders will go to 123.3. or 123.5 even
when staying within the 10-15 mile local area that keeps
them within glide range of home.

Todd Pattist
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