Another Cirrus crash

[James L. Freeman]

A four-place Cirrus crashed yesterday near Greenwood, SC. There were
not many details in the paper this morning. There were four on board,
all killed. It went down in a wooded area near a golf course shortly
after takeoff. There was no mention of a parachute deployment. They
had arrived a few hours before for a business meeting and did not
refuel before takeoff, but in the picture it appeared that the
aircraft was destroyed by fire after impact so there must have been
fuel on board.

[ET]

(James L. Freeman) wrote in
om:

> A four-place Cirrus crashed yesterday near Greenwood, SC. There were
> not many details in the paper this morning. There were four on board,
> all killed. It went down in a wooded area near a golf course shortly
> after takeoff. There was no mention of a parachute deployment. They
> had arrived a few hours before for a business meeting and did not
> refuel before takeoff, but in the picture it appeared that the
> aircraft was destroyed by fire after impact so there must have been
> fuel on board.
>

Yup, as much as we put down the zzzz guy... it was on his site just after
midnight last night, and this is the first I've seen it other than
there....

--
ET >:)


"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams

[Otis Winslow]

What is it about these that has them involved in so many
crashes? Are they that difficult to fly? Are there some
gotchas with them?


"James L. Freeman" > wrote in message
om...
> A four-place Cirrus crashed yesterday near Greenwood, SC. There were
> not many details in the paper this morning. There were four on board,
> all killed. It went down in a wooded area near a golf course shortly
> after takeoff. There was no mention of a parachute deployment. They
> had arrived a few hours before for a business meeting and did not
> refuel before takeoff, but in the picture it appeared that the
> aircraft was destroyed by fire after impact so there must have been
> fuel on board.

[John T]

"Otis Winslow" > wrote in message

>
> What is it about these that has them involved in so many
> crashes? Are they that difficult to fly? Are there some
> gotchas with them?

Rusty pilots? :)

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
____________________

[FUji]

"John T" > wrote in message
ws.com...
> "Otis Winslow" > wrote in message
>
> >
> > What is it about these that has them involved in so many
> > crashes? Are they that difficult to fly? Are there some
> > gotchas with them?
>
> Rusty pilots? :)
>
> --
> John T
> http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
> http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
> ____________________
>

Slick airframe, glass cockpit with an analog pilot and a goofy side-stick
are a few problems. A good plane for wannabe airline pilots who don't like
to look out the windows. "Stall? It dosen't say on this here tv screen that
I'm in a stall... Whoops, wrong channel..."

Quality control seems to be on par with Lightspeed, meaning they're in the
shop more than a British car. They look good and are very comfortable. But
it's the only airplane I've ever flown that I can say I truly hated and
couldn't wait to be back on the ground.

[Jay Honeck]

> But
> it's the only airplane I've ever flown that I can say I truly hated and
> couldn't wait to be back on the ground.

Wow, you're the only person I've ever heard say *THAT* about the Cirrus.

What didn't you like about the way it flew?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[EDR]

In article >, Otis Winslow
> wrote:

> What is it about these that has them involved in so many
> crashes? Are they that difficult to fly? Are there some
> gotchas with them?

Thurman Munson syndrome?

[ET]

"FUji" > wrote in
:

> "John T" > wrote in message
> ws.com...
>> "Otis Winslow" > wrote in message
>>
>> >
>> > What is it about these that has them involved in so many
>> > crashes? Are they that difficult to fly? Are there some
>> > gotchas with them?
>>
>> Rusty pilots? :)
>>
>> --
>> John T
>> http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
>> http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
>> ____________________
>>
>
> Slick airframe, glass cockpit with an analog pilot and a goofy
> side-stick are a few problems. A good plane for wannabe airline
> pilots who don't like to look out the windows. "Stall? It dosen't say
> on this here tv screen that I'm in a stall... Whoops, wrong
> channel..."
>
> Quality control seems to be on par with Lightspeed, meaning they're in
> the shop more than a British car. They look good and are very
> comfortable. But it's the only airplane I've ever flown that I can
> say I truly hated and couldn't wait to be back on the ground.
>
>

I'm brand new to avaition, I;ve only been behind the controls of 2
planes, each twice around the pattern: One an SR22, and one 194-
something ercoupe ... but I liked the "goofy" sidestick... :-)

--
ET >:)


"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams

[Guy Elden Jr.]

It is kind of disconcerting to see this happening, but keep in mind that it
may not be statistically significant compared to the crash rate of Cessnas,
Pipers, Beeches, etc... I expect that we're all a bit more aware of Cirrus
right now because of the recent BRS deployment, so any news regarding Cirrus
is going to be noticed more now than it would be at another point in time.

Someone mentioned they hate the plane... I have yet to fly in one, but I
know it certainly offers everything I could hope to want in a small general
aviation plane (except for the bathroom for my wife!) It's roomy,
redundant, and fast. I really like the idea of the side stick... that must
make dealing with charts soooooo much easier with all the space freed up in
front of you. Not to mention more room for the three course meal mid-flight.
:)

I am concerned though about the incidents I've been hearing about all of the
systems failing simultaneously. That is certainly not something I would
expect to happen with a plane with dual redundant electrical systems.
Especially not one costing over $300k. BRS is nice, but again, there is no
substitute for training, practice, and more training to keep yourself
current. Right now, I'm more than comfortable with the 172SP, and would love
to fly an SR-22... it would make getting from NJ to Atlanta much zippier...
but I know my experience level has a ways to go before I'm ready for the
challenge of stepping up to something faster and more complex.

--
Guy Elden Jr.

"Otis Winslow" > wrote in message
...
> What is it about these that has them involved in so many
> crashes? Are they that difficult to fly? Are there some
> gotchas with them?
>
>
> "James L. Freeman" > wrote in message
> om...
> > A four-place Cirrus crashed yesterday near Greenwood, SC. There were
> > not many details in the paper this morning. There were four on board,
> > all killed. It went down in a wooded area near a golf course shortly
> > after takeoff. There was no mention of a parachute deployment. They
> > had arrived a few hours before for a business meeting and did not
> > refuel before takeoff, but in the picture it appeared that the
> > aircraft was destroyed by fire after impact so there must have been
> > fuel on board.
>
>

[John Harper]

I haven't said it quite as strongly as that, but it was kind of
how I felt after my SR20 experiences. OTOH the SR22 is
a different kettle of fish, at least it has enough power.
The sidestick is honestly no big deal, although the fact that
the electric trim is so fast you can't trim the plane for hands-off
flying (and therefore have to use the autopilot) IS.

I'm baffled by why the loss rate is so high for this airplane.
My wife's theory - which I am too polite to repeat - is that
the plane attracts the wrong kind of pilot. Honestly it's just
about like any other plane to fly, it has its idiosyncracies but
they're no big deal. In any case if they carry on going down
at the present rate they'll soon be uninsurable.

John

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:vighc.35327$yD1.101224@attbi_s54...
> > But
> > it's the only airplane I've ever flown that I can say I truly hated and
> > couldn't wait to be back on the ground.
>
> Wow, you're the only person I've ever heard say *THAT* about the Cirrus.
>
> What didn't you like about the way it flew?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[FUji]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:vighc.35327$yD1.101224@attbi_s54...
> > But
> > it's the only airplane I've ever flown that I can say I truly hated and
> > couldn't wait to be back on the ground.
>
> Wow, you're the only person I've ever heard say *THAT* about the Cirrus.
>
> What didn't you like about the way it flew?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

It seemed heavy on the controls requiring a lot of thumb action on the trim
to make it bearable. The stick is too far to the side making it similar to
trying to fly using your door handle. It's more natural to have your hands
towards the center, like a center stick or yoke, instead of having just one
way out to the side. I find the side stick gives you a very detached and
somewhat helpless feeling. Like enjoying the ride is more important than
the actual flying. If the electric trim failed, imagine reaching across to
get your right hand on the stick. Thank god for the parachute, because I
wouldn't want to have to horse that thing through some emergency maneuver.
The feeling I get flying a Cirrus is the same I can get if I played MSFS
while sitting in a lazyboy. In these things PIC means "pilot in cirrus"
because you sure as hell aren't in "command"

The glass panel, however wiz-bang cool, is more distracting than it is
useful. And no, I don't want to look down at my knees to see the analog
backups. Maybe if I learned on something like that I'd be used to it. The
big moving map is great, I've gotta shoehorn one of them into my Musketeer,
but gimmie a panel full of dials for my primary instruments anyday.

It's possible for them to make it more friendly to pilots who want to be
more active in flight, instead of catering to the
ijustgottapilotslicenseandmyothercarisamercedes crowd. But they go where
the money is. I'm sure not all Cirrus owners are the Tom Cruise, Top Gun
type, but all that I've met are. Maybe this has something to do with the
accident stats.

If I win one in a raffle I'll trade you even for your Pathfinder. ;-)

[Dan Luke]

"FUji" wrote:
> I find the side stick gives you a very detached and
> somewhat helpless feeling. Like enjoying the ride
> is more important than the actual flying.

I know exactly what you mean. I flew a Lancair Super ES and absolutely
hated it. It felt like sitting in a Barcalounger playing Nintendo.

Maybe it's just prejudice from habituation, but as far as I'm concerned,
side sticks suck. Perhaps I'd feel differently if I got to try one in
an F-16!
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:vighc.35327$yD1.101224@attbi_s54...
> > But
> > it's the only airplane I've ever flown that I can say I truly hated and
> > couldn't wait to be back on the ground.
>
> Wow, you're the only person I've ever heard say *THAT* about the Cirrus.
>
> What didn't you like about the way it flew?

It fly's like a car with bald tires drives on ice.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Dan Luke" > wrote in message
...
> "FUji" wrote:
> > I find the side stick gives you a very detached and
> > somewhat helpless feeling. Like enjoying the ride
> > is more important than the actual flying.
>
> I know exactly what you mean. I flew a Lancair Super ES and absolutely
> hated it. It felt like sitting in a Barcalounger playing Nintendo.
>
> Maybe it's just prejudice from habituation, but as far as I'm concerned,
> side sticks suck. Perhaps I'd feel differently if I got to try one in
> an F-16!

At least in an F-16, the control stick (IIUC) is in the RIGHT hand, which is
the one with dexterity (for a northpaw). Yes, with a regular yoke you use
the left hand with right hand for the throttle, but then you're using the
entire arm. (Try putting golf balls with just hands...it doesn't
work...that's why you use still hands and control with the larger arm
muscles.)

[Hilton]

John Harper wrote:
> I'm baffled by why the loss rate is so high for this airplane.
> My wife's theory - which I am too polite to repeat - is that
> the plane attracts the wrong kind of pilot.

That being the case, imagine when the light jets hit the market.

Hilton

[Dave Stadt]

"Guy Elden Jr." > wrote in message
...
> It is kind of disconcerting to see this happening, but keep in mind that
it
> may not be statistically significant compared to the crash rate of
Cessnas,
> Pipers, Beeches, etc... I expect that we're all a bit more aware of Cirrus
> right now because of the recent BRS deployment, so any news regarding
Cirrus
> is going to be noticed more now than it would be at another point in time.

Rest assured the acident rate of Cirrus is statistically off the chart
compared to C/P/B.

[BTIZ]

> the electric trim is so fast you can't trim the plane for hands-off
> flying (and therefore have to use the autopilot) IS.

what's wrong with the manual trim...

BT

[Lisa]

BTIZ wrote:

> > the electric trim is so fast you can't trim the plane for hands-off
> > flying (and therefore have to use the autopilot) IS.
>
> what's wrong with the manual trim...

What manual trim? You snipped the post, but the earlier poster was
discussing a CIRRUS SR22, so your question doesn't make sense.

[John Harper]

Errm.... have you ever sat in a Cirrus (either kind)? There
is ONLY electric trim. No comforting trim wheel down
by your right hand.

fwiw in my plane (182RG) I never use the electric trim,
partly because it doesn't work very well and partly because
I've just never got into the habit. (Funny, because the couple
of times I flew a Mooney Bravo it seemed like second nature
to use the electric trim).

John

"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:yDmhc.18215$432.12208@fed1read01...
> > the electric trim is so fast you can't trim the plane for hands-off
> > flying (and therefore have to use the autopilot) IS.
>
> what's wrong with the manual trim...
>
> BT
>
>

[C J Campbell]

"ET" > wrote in message
...
> (James L. Freeman) wrote in
> om:
>
> > A four-place Cirrus crashed yesterday near Greenwood, SC. There were
> > not many details in the paper this morning. There were four on board,
> > all killed. It went down in a wooded area near a golf course shortly
> > after takeoff. There was no mention of a parachute deployment. They
> > had arrived a few hours before for a business meeting and did not
> > refuel before takeoff, but in the picture it appeared that the
> > aircraft was destroyed by fire after impact so there must have been
> > fuel on board.
> >
>
> Yup, as much as we put down the zzzz guy... it was on his site just after
> midnight last night, and this is the first I've seen it other than
> there....
>

Good for him. Did he say that it was caused by space aliens or by evil
agents from Pulsar this time?

[Thomas Borchert]

John,

> Honestly it's just
> about like any other plane to fly, it has its idiosyncracies but
> they're no big deal.
>

Just like the Bo back when it got its doctor killer reputation.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Guy,

> I am concerned though about the incidents I've been hearing about all of the
> systems failing simultaneously.
>

So you're another clarivoyant that's better than any NTSB team?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Ash Wyllie]

Dan Luke opined

>"FUji" wrote:
>> I find the side stick gives you a very detached and
>> somewhat helpless feeling. Like enjoying the ride
>> is more important than the actual flying.

>I know exactly what you mean. I flew a Lancair Super ES and absolutely
>hated it. It felt like sitting in a Barcalounger playing Nintendo.

>Maybe it's just prejudice from habituation, but as far as I'm concerned,
>side sticks suck. Perhaps I'd feel differently if I got to try one in
>an F-16!

One nice thing about wheels and centered sticks is that you can change hands
from time to time, or even use two hands if desired.



-ash
Cthulhu for President!
Why vote for a lesser evil?

[Peter R.]

Tom Sixkiller ) wrote:

> At least in an F-16, the control stick (IIUC) is in the RIGHT hand, which is
> the one with dexterity (for a northpaw).

Speak for yourself, RIGHTY! ;-)

Actually, a left side stick for a left-handed person is problematic,
especially when ATC calls and says, "Aircraft XYZ, reroute to your
clearance, advice when ready to copy."

--
Peter

[Peter Gottlieb]

I sat in one to see how it "felt" and decided it was not for me and that was
one of the reasons.


"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> Tom Sixkiller ) wrote:
>
> > At least in an F-16, the control stick (IIUC) is in the RIGHT hand,
which is
> > the one with dexterity (for a northpaw).
>
> Speak for yourself, RIGHTY! ;-)
>
> Actually, a left side stick for a left-handed person is problematic,
> especially when ATC calls and says, "Aircraft XYZ, reroute to your
> clearance, advice when ready to copy."
>
> --
> Peter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Roger Halstead]

On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 19:59:13 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller" >
wrote:

>
>"Dan Luke" > wrote in message
...
>> "FUji" wrote:
>> > I find the side stick gives you a very detached and
>> > somewhat helpless feeling. Like enjoying the ride
>> > is more important than the actual flying.
>>
>> I know exactly what you mean. I flew a Lancair Super ES and absolutely
>> hated it. It felt like sitting in a Barcalounger playing Nintendo.
>>
>> Maybe it's just prejudice from habituation, but as far as I'm concerned,
>> side sticks suck. Perhaps I'd feel differently if I got to try one in
>> an F-16!
>
>At least in an F-16, the control stick (IIUC) is in the RIGHT hand, which is

As I recall the F-16 has a "joy stick" like the joystick for a game
controller. Those work fine. I flew a Cozy with one and liked it.
I do not like the so called side stick which pushes and pulls like a
yoke. They feel un-natural and clumsy to me.

>the one with dexterity (for a northpaw). Yes, with a regular yoke you use
>the left hand with right hand for the throttle, but then you're using the
>entire arm. (Try putting golf balls with just hands...it doesn't
>work...that's why you use still hands and control with the larger arm

You don't have that problem with the pivoted joystick. OTOH, I think
I'd have a devil of a time using a left mounted joystick.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

>muscles.)
>

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Roger Halstead" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 19:59:13 -0700, "Tom Sixkiller" >
> wrote:
> >
> >At least in an F-16, the control stick (IIUC) is in the RIGHT hand, which
is
>
> As I recall the F-16 has a "joy stick" like the joystick for a game
> controller. Those work fine. I flew a Cozy with one and liked it.
> I do not like the so called side stick which pushes and pulls like a
> yoke. They feel un-natural and clumsy to me.
> >the one with dexterity (for a northpaw). Yes, with a regular yoke you use
> >the left hand with right hand for the throttle, but then you're using the
> >entire arm. (Try putting golf balls with just hands...it doesn't
> >work...that's why you use still hands and control with the larger arm
>
> You don't have that problem with the pivoted joystick. OTOH, I think
> I'd have a devil of a time using a left mounted joystick.

Exactly. You're _fine dexterity_ is in the other hand.

I once sat in a English/Right hand drive car with stick shift and just
couldn't get the hang of shifting with the left hand without missing
gears...

Maybe it has something to do with the angle of your arm/hand when it's off
to the side??

[Toly]

It's all well, but you've gotta fly one first, then decide if it's for
you. I was also pretty excited about Cirrus, until I got a ride in an
SR-20 last year. On the ground, you sit like a king: the ergonomics,
view and comfort are terrific, but in the air the plane is very
slippery and feels like it's skating on ice, only in three dimensions.
It was pretty much impossible to trim it off for a hands-off flight,
without the a/p. I found the beast almost too squirelly to control,
and the side stick was indeed giving that disconnected feeling. Like
the others been saying, I couldn't wait till we landed. The whole
experience was hinting that I might lack some piloting skills, but one
trip in a Cherokee put things back in place.

Bottom line, I'd take Arrow or even Warrior any time over Cirrus.
Piper's ride is solid and predictable, and you can relax and enjoy the
ride, while Cirrus is too slippery and manually flying one demands
constant control inputs to the point that it wears you out very soon.
I have suspicion this may be true for most metal vs. composite
aircraft.

-Toly.

>
> Someone mentioned they hate the plane... I have yet to fly in one, but I
> know it certainly offers everything I could hope to want in a small general
> aviation plane (except for the bathroom for my wife!) It's roomy,
> redundant, and fast. I really like the idea of the side stick... that must
> make dealing with charts soooooo much easier with all the space freed up in
> front of you. Not to mention more room for the three course meal mid-flight.
> :)
>

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Tom Sixkiller wrote:
>> You don't have that problem with the pivoted joystick. OTOH, I think
>> I'd have a devil of a time using a left mounted joystick.
>
> Exactly. You're _fine dexterity_ is in the other hand.

I've found it doesn't matter. In a plane with a yoke, I fly with my left
hand. In a plane with a stick, I fly with my right. Except for the
Auster, which I fly with the stick in the left hand because it's side by
side seating and the throttle's in the middle. I'm right handed.

> I once sat in a English/Right hand drive car with stick shift and just
> couldn't get the hang of shifting with the left hand without missing
> gears...

Never given me a problem with either hand drive car, except perhaps
occasionally trying to change gear with the door handle immediately
after getting in whichever type I've not driven in a while.

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[David Brooks]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message
...

> I once sat in a English/Right hand drive car with stick shift and just
> couldn't get the hang of shifting with the left hand without missing
> gears...
>
> Maybe it has something to do with the angle of your arm/hand when it's off
> to the side??

It's nothing to do with hand dominance; it's just a matter of practice. And
the motor skills stay; I'm equally comfortable with a stick shift of either
polarity, although for the first few hours you start reaching down with the
wrong hand.

Yes, the pedals are fortunately in the same order.

-- David Brooks

[Don Tuite]

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 22:24:14 -0000, Dylan Smith
> wrote:
>
>Never given me a problem with either hand drive car, except perhaps
>occasionally trying to change gear with the door handle immediately
>after getting in whichever type I've not driven in a while.

Don't you find yourself signalling turns with the windshield wipers?
I do.

No argument about airplanes though. Luscombe or Champ -- stick and
throttle hand-switching is the easiest part of the transition.

Don

[David Brooks]

"Don Tuite" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 22:24:14 -0000, Dylan Smith
> > wrote:
> >
> >Never given me a problem with either hand drive car, except perhaps
> >occasionally trying to change gear with the door handle immediately
> >after getting in whichever type I've not driven in a while.
>
> Don't you find yourself signalling turns with the windshield wipers?
> I do.

Of course! But I do that when I switch cars in the US sometimes.

When you cross the Atlantic (either way) and drive for a few days, the day
will come when your vigilance will drop a notch. You will turn out of a
major road into a minor road, and you'll find you are on the wrong side of
the road.

Happens every time. The USAF manual for living in England
(Mildenhall/Lakenheath) even mentioned it, back when.

-- David Brooks

[John T]

"Toly" > wrote in message
m
>
> Piper's ride is solid and predictable, and you can relax and enjoy the
> ride, while Cirrus is too slippery and manually flying one demands
> constant control inputs to the point that it wears you out very soon.
> I have suspicion this may be true for most metal vs. composite
> aircraft.

Is it "metal v. composite" or different design considerations in the
respective airframes?

Don't get me wrong. I haven't so much as sat in a Cirrus much less flown
one, but it seems that the Cirrus was designed as a higher performing
airframe than the Piper models you mentioned. I'm just wondering if the
Cirrus designers sacrificed some stability to achieve that performance.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
____________________

[Jeff]

probably rusty on that W/B , 4 adult males in a 200 hp airplane.


John T wrote:

> "Otis Winslow" > wrote in message
>
> >
> > What is it about these that has them involved in so many
> > crashes? Are they that difficult to fly? Are there some
> > gotchas with them?
>
> Rusty pilots? :)
>
> --
> John T
> http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
> http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
> ____________________

[Jeff]

I don't use the electric trim in my turbo arrow either, its hard to get the
plane trimmed using it because its to easy to over trim.

John Harper wrote:

> Errm.... have you ever sat in a Cirrus (either kind)? There
> is ONLY electric trim. No comforting trim wheel down
> by your right hand.
>
> fwiw in my plane (182RG) I never use the electric trim,
> partly because it doesn't work very well and partly because
> I've just never got into the habit. (Funny, because the couple
> of times I flew a Mooney Bravo it seemed like second nature
> to use the electric trim).
>
> John
>
> "BTIZ" > wrote in message
> news:yDmhc.18215$432.12208@fed1read01...
> > > the electric trim is so fast you can't trim the plane for hands-off
> > > flying (and therefore have to use the autopilot) IS.
> >
> > what's wrong with the manual trim...
> >
> > BT
> >
> >

[Jeff]

the SR20 is not that much higher performing.
its a 200 hp engine that does about 156 KTAS (per their website), thats about
6 kts faster then my 200 hp turbo arrow is all - and at 14000 ft I can go
faster then a SR20 (about 165 KTAS)

the SR22 with its 310 HP engine is something else now.
But compare it to other planes with a 310 HP engine.


John T wrote:

> "Toly" > wrote in message
> m
> >
> > Piper's ride is solid and predictable, and you can relax and enjoy the
> > ride, while Cirrus is too slippery and manually flying one demands
> > constant control inputs to the point that it wears you out very soon.
> > I have suspicion this may be true for most metal vs. composite
> > aircraft.
>
> Is it "metal v. composite" or different design considerations in the
> respective airframes?
>
> Don't get me wrong. I haven't so much as sat in a Cirrus much less flown
> one, but it seems that the Cirrus was designed as a higher performing
> airframe than the Piper models you mentioned. I'm just wondering if the
> Cirrus designers sacrificed some stability to achieve that performance.
>
> --
> John T
> http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
> http://www.pocketgear.com/products_search.asp?developerid=4415
> ____________________

[Toly]

That's a good question. I tend to think it's the material, not the
design. Cirrus actually is a stable airplane, I just found it too
twitchy. I think the airframe is so slick that it's very sensitive to
minute air disturbances, while most metal a/c are "dirty" enough to
ignore them. However, without experience in other composite a/c it's
just a guess... I'd love to hear what other pilots would say...

-Toly.

"John T" > wrote in message m>...
> "Toly" > wrote in message
> m
> >
> > Piper's ride is solid and predictable, and you can relax and enjoy the
> > ride, while Cirrus is too slippery and manually flying one demands
> > constant control inputs to the point that it wears you out very soon.
> > I have suspicion this may be true for most metal vs. composite
> > aircraft.
>
> Is it "metal v. composite" or different design considerations in the
> respective airframes?
>
> Don't get me wrong. I haven't so much as sat in a Cirrus much less flown
> one, but it seems that the Cirrus was designed as a higher performing
> airframe than the Piper models you mentioned. I'm just wondering if the
> Cirrus designers sacrificed some stability to achieve that performance.

[David CL Francis]

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 at 13:48:06 in message
>, Tom Sixkiller >
wrote:

>I once sat in a English/Right hand drive car with stick shift and just
>couldn't get the hang of shifting with the left hand without missing
>gears...
>
>Maybe it has something to do with the angle of your arm/hand when it's off
>to the side??

The other way around for me: the first time I drove a left hand drive
car I kept trying to change gear with the window winder and looking up
and left for the centre mirror. When I got my arm in the right place I
had no trouble changing gear though. I am right handed.

Later I adjusted fairly easily when I got to drive in the USA,
especially with an automatic!
--
David CL Francis

[Dylan Smith]

In article >, Don Tuite wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 22:24:14 -0000, Dylan Smith
> wrote:
>>
>>Never given me a problem with either hand drive car, except perhaps
>>occasionally trying to change gear with the door handle immediately
>>after getting in whichever type I've not driven in a while.
>
> Don't you find yourself signalling turns with the windshield wipers?
> I do.

No - only in some models of Japanese cars where the wiper
switch/indicator switch is the other way around from the rest of the
world's cars!

--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"

[ISLIP]

Toly

I disagree with you. After 23 years of owning a C172 & 18 months of owning a
Cirrus, there is no comparison ther than both fly.
The higher wing loading of the Cirrus makes it slide through turbulence that
used to be uncomfortable in the Cessna.
Twitchy? you have to explain in more depth what you mean. Pain in the neck to
use the electric trim? Yes, but really is just a matter of getting used to the
sensitivity of the switch. Most, if not all Cirrus owners ( except ArtP) get
used to it. The fallback is to use the auto pilot which will trim the plane.
Once disconnected, the plane stays pretty much in trim, though I admit I prefer
the trim wheel of the Skyhawk.

John

[James L. Freeman]

"Dave Stadt" > wrote in message >...
>
> Rest assured the acident rate of Cirrus is statistically off the chart
> compared to C/P/B.

Here is a quote from the AOPA ePILOT electronic newsletter I received
this morning:

"Although there have been four Cirrus accidents this year—two
involving deployment of the rocket-launched parachute system, which
saved the lives of five people—the [Cirrus] safety record remains
good. AOPA Air Safety Foundation statistics show the fatal accident
rate is comparable to those of the Cessna 172 and 182. Although
insurance rates for Cirrus Design aircraft were high a year ago,
insurance officials report they have now dropped to normal levels."

[Thomas Borchert]

Islip,

> Most, if not all Cirrus owners ( except ArtP) get
> used to it.
>

Don't own one, only did a demo ride. Took me all of two minutes to
adjust to it.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[David CL Francis]

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 at 17:14:50 in message
>, David Brooks
> wrote:

>When you cross the Atlantic (either way) and drive for a few days, the day
>will come when your vigilance will drop a notch. You will turn out of a
>major road into a minor road, and you'll find you are on the wrong side of
>the road.

I find the greatest risk of that happening is coming out of a gas
station or a restaurant.. Your guard may be down a bit at such moments.
--
David CL Francis