renter's insurance

[RM]

It seems that a local guy will make me quite a good deal on renting his
little Cessna IF I supply my own renter's insurance.

I've no experience with this. Anyone have any pointers on where to go,
who to avoid and what it might cost?

[Rob Starr]

"RM" > wrote in message
om...
> It seems that a local guy will make me quite a good deal on renting his
> little Cessna IF I supply my own renter's insurance.
>
> I've no experience with this. Anyone have any pointers on where to go,
> who to avoid and what it might cost?

The FAA is quite specific about the requirements for rental aircraft. This
does not sound like a rental... I think what you need to do is become a
named insured on his policy and contribute to the cost of the policy.

[Bartscher]

Speaking of renter's insurance, has anyone had any luck in getting renter's
insurance that covers multi-engine aircraft?

I have a renter's insurance policy with Avemco that covers single engine, but
apparently they will not write policies on multi-engine aircraft for renters
(only owners).

I'd like to get coverage before I start renting to get my multi. I currently
have 500 hours, instrument, and commercial for single engine (if that matters).

It appears that the insurance companies are trying to take twins out of the air
(I recently heard that the minimums for giving dual on one local twin were 300
hours of dual given in a twin + some additional amount of twin time that I
can't recall). Pretty soon nobody will be able to give instruction in or rent
one...

Eric Bartsch

[Ben Jackson]

In article >,
RM > wrote:
>It seems that a local guy will make me quite a good deal on renting his
>little Cessna IF I supply my own renter's insurance.

If he's willing, you might be better off adding yourself as a "named
insured" on HIS insurance and splitting the cost somehow.

Otherwise look at AOPA for example for renters insurance.

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

[Cub Driver]

On 25 Apr 2004 16:13:09 -0700, (RM) wrote:

>It seems that a local guy will make me quite a good deal on renting his
>little Cessna IF I supply my own renter's insurance.
>
>I've no experience with this. Anyone have any pointers on where to go,
>who to avoid and what it might cost?

Assuming you have a private pilot cert, your best bet is probably
AOPA.

Hull insurance is fairly pricey, so a lot depends on how much of that
you carry. I pay a bit less than $600 a year for $20K hull insurance
and $1 million liability ($100,000 per pax). The former is the
smallest I could buy, and the latter is the largest I could buy.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

[Robert M. Gary]

(RM) wrote in message >...
> It seems that a local guy will make me quite a good deal on renting his
> little Cessna IF I supply my own renter's insurance.
>
> I've no experience with this. Anyone have any pointers on where to go,
> who to avoid and what it might cost?


This is more of a borrower's situation than a renters. Luckily renters
insurance does cover borrower's. However, there will be a large hole
in the policy. The renter's (borrower's) insurance will not cover
anything unless you can prove it was a result of pilot error. The
owner's policy will not cover anything if a pilot was flying it that
was not named or met the requirements of the open pilot. So if you
land and the wheel comes off and you spin into a ditch, there is no
insurance. The Renter's policy will say its not your fault the wheel
came off, the owner's policy will say a non-named pilot was flying.
You two would end up paying yourselves. Having said that, the deal
could still work. you could offer to pay the difference to get
yourself named on the policy, or you could get the renter's insurance
and "self insure" the rest. You will have liability yourself under the
renter's policy.

-Robert

[Cub Driver]

>You will have liability yourself under the
>renter's policy.

All your buddy has to do is sue you (that's not difficult or
expensive, at least not in New Hampshire). Surely the jury would find
you liable. Then your insurance company would have to pay.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

[Robert M. Gary]

Cub Driver > wrote in message >...
> >You will have liability yourself under the
> >renter's policy.
>
> All your buddy has to do is sue you (that's not difficult or
> expensive, at least not in New Hampshire). Surely the jury would find
> you liable. Then your insurance company would have to pay.

Here in California its not unusual for one spouse to sue the other in
order to unlock the homeowner's insurance. If you trip and fall in
your own home and want to get your medical covered you can't do that
as the home owner but you can sue your spouse (who probably has Joint
Tenancy (in California a spouse actually has something slightly
different than JT but very similar)).

-Robert

[John Galban]

(Robert M. Gary) wrote in message >...
> The
> owner's policy will not cover anything if a pilot was flying it that
> was not named or met the requirements of the open pilot.

Even worse. If the owner has the usual business/pleasure coverage
they will deny the claim entirely when they find out the owner was
renting out the airplane. That's an entirely different (and much more
expensive) class of insurance.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Robert M. Gary]

I"m not aware of anyone who writes insurance for renters in twins (or
sea ). You may want to look at the FBOs policy. If they don't
subgrogate you may decide you want to risk the lose of use and
deductable. Of course, you could always be sued personaly. However,
lawyers are usually looking for the easy money and the guy with the
most insurance is probably going to get teh biggest bill (especially
under JSL).

The number of hours the FBO requires before renting really has more do
to with how much they pay for their insurance. I know that a lot of
FBOs buy their insurance down to 10 hours of dual before solo or a
minimum number of twin time in something else with something like 5
hours of dual in type. An FBO that requires 300 hours of dual is
really saying they only have insurance for dual. For a lot of mom and
pop FBOs that's all they can afford. The sea plane industry hit that a
while back. There aren't too many places that you can rent a sea plane
solo.

-Robert


(Bartscher) wrote in message >...
> Speaking of renter's insurance, has anyone had any luck in getting renter's
> insurance that covers multi-engine aircraft?
>
> I have a renter's insurance policy with Avemco that covers single engine, but
> apparently they will not write policies on multi-engine aircraft for renters
> (only owners).
>
> I'd like to get coverage before I start renting to get my multi. I currently
> have 500 hours, instrument, and commercial for single engine (if that matters).
>
> It appears that the insurance companies are trying to take twins out of the air
> (I recently heard that the minimums for giving dual on one local twin were 300
> hours of dual given in a twin + some additional amount of twin time that I
> can't recall). Pretty soon nobody will be able to give instruction in or rent
> one...
>
> Eric Bartsch

[Michael]

Cub Driver > wrote
> All your buddy has to do is sue you (that's not difficult or
> expensive, at least not in New Hampshire). Surely the jury would find
> you liable. Then your insurance company would have to pay.

Actually, the insurance company would likely defend the suit. What's
more, you would have to cooperate with the defense. Anything less
than full cooperation would void the policy.

Michael

[Peter Duniho]

"Highfllyer" > wrote in message
...
> [...]
> Cutting corners on hull insurance on an aircraft is dangerous. It doesn't
> work like car insurance.

Funny, your story sounded just like the way auto insurance works.

At least with an airplane, *you* get to tell the *insurance company* what
your airplane is worth (in advance, not after the damage of course). With
auto insurance, you pay whatever rate they say you're going to pay and the
car is worth whatever they say it's worth. When they pay out that value,
they get the car.

Pete

[G.R. Patterson III]

Peter Duniho wrote:
>
> At least with an airplane, *you* get to tell the *insurance company* what
> your airplane is worth (in advance, not after the damage of course). With
> auto insurance, you pay whatever rate they say you're going to pay and the
> car is worth whatever they say it's worth.

Not with antique or classic car policies. Those work like aircraft policies.
Otherwise you'd be stuck with $100 payout for a totalled '57 T-bird.

George Patterson
If you don't tell lies, you never have to remember what you said.

[Peter Duniho]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
> > [...] With
> > auto insurance, you pay whatever rate they say you're going to pay and
the
> > car is worth whatever they say it's worth.
>
> Not with antique or classic car policies. Those work like aircraft
policies.

I made the assumption that the person posting as "Highflyer" was talking
about plain, vanilla every day auto insurance policies. After all, the
policies for antiques and classic cars are even MORE like those for
aircraft, not less. It wouldn't make any sense for him to use those as his
point of comparision.

Pete

[Robert M. Gary]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message >...
> "Highfllyer" > wrote in message
> ...
> > [...]
> > Cutting corners on hull insurance on an aircraft is dangerous. It doesn't
> > work like car insurance.
>
> Funny, your story sounded just like the way auto insurance works.
>
> At least with an airplane, *you* get to tell the *insurance company* what
> your airplane is worth (in advance, not after the damage of course). With
> auto insurance, you pay whatever rate they say you're going to pay and the
> car is worth whatever they say it's worth. When they pay out that value,
> they get the car.

However, they have to agree on the value before they write the policy.
I've had to give a statement to my broker on a couple occations during
renewal to justify insuring the plane for more than the Vref the
insurance co found. It's not like you could insure an old 172 for
$100,000.

-Robert

[Cub Driver]

Don't forget that what we are talking about here is *renter's*
insurance.

At least at my airport, neither the client nor the insurance company
gets to say what the airplane is worth. The airport requires a $40K
minimum before it will rent you a Cub or a Cessna.

(And in the case of a valuable biplane, requires you to fly with an
instructor.)

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

[Newps]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...


>
> At least with an airplane, *you* get to tell the *insurance company* what
> your airplane is worth (in advance, not after the damage of course). With
> auto insurance, you pay whatever rate they say you're going to pay and the
> car is worth whatever they say it's worth.

State law applies. Here in Montana, if my car is totalled the insurance
company goes to three car lots and finds my exact model, if possible,
otherwise as close as they can get. They take the retail asking price of
those three vehicles and divide by three. That's what I get, minus any
deductible that may apply.


When they pay out that value,
> they get the car.

Same as the airplane, although you can always buy it back from them

[Teacherjh]

>>
Here in Montana, if my car is totalled the insurance
company goes to three car lots
<<

Does anything say they can't have someone go to seventeen car lots and find the
three with the lowest prices first?

>> although you can always buy it back from them

which kind of defeats the point of insurance.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Newps]

"Teacherjh" > wrote in message
...
> >>
> Here in Montana, if my car is totalled the insurance
> company goes to three car lots
> <<
>
> Does anything say they can't have someone go to seventeen car lots and
find the
> three with the lowest prices first?

No, but you're already protected because we use asking prices.


>
> >> although you can always buy it back from them
>
> which kind of defeats the point of insurance.

Not really. If you're the handy type you can buy your car back for pretty
cheap. Same as your plane.

[Robert M. Gary]

Cub Driver > wrote in message >...
> Don't forget that what we are talking about here is *renter's*
> insurance.
>
> At least at my airport, neither the client nor the insurance company
> gets to say what the airplane is worth. The airport requires a $40K
> minimum before it will rent you a Cub or a Cessna.
>
> (And in the case of a valuable biplane, requires you to fly with an
> instructor.)

Oh, I thought we had switched to owner's insurance. A renters policy
works like an auto policy. You can buy $100,000 in hull on a renter's
policy but the insurance is only going to pay out what they think the
plane is worth. When I flew the Swift I remember having this
conversation with my broker. Otherwise you could start a pretty neat
business buying $10,000 run out Champ projects and crashing them on a
$100,000 renter's policy.

[Robert M. Gary]

"Newps" > wrote in message >...
> "Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>
> >
> > At least with an airplane, *you* get to tell the *insurance company* what
> > your airplane is worth (in advance, not after the damage of course). With
> > auto insurance, you pay whatever rate they say you're going to pay and the
> > car is worth whatever they say it's worth.
>
> State law applies. Here in Montana, if my car is totalled the insurance
> company goes to three car lots and finds my exact model, if possible,
> otherwise as close as they can get. They take the retail asking price of
> those three vehicles and divide by three. That's what I get, minus any
> deductible that may apply.

Are there more than 3 cars in Montana?


> When they pay out that value,
> > they get the car.
>
> Same as the airplane, although you can always buy it back from them

I did this with my car when I was in college. I put another 250,000
miles on that Toyota after the insurance company had sold it back to
me for $300. The thing gave me 335,000 miles all told. I probably
spent more money on shoes than that car. BTW: When the hell is Toyota
going to start making planes! :)

-Robert

[Newps]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
om...


> Are there more than 3 cars in Montana?

No, but there are a billion pickup trucks.