R in a Circle (Airport Surveillance Radar) on VFR charts

[Jeff Saylor]

The R in a circle symbol next to an airport on Sectionals nindicates
that this airport has Airport Surveillance Radar. But what does this
really indicate to the VFR pilot?

At Reading, Pennsylvania (KRDG) there is such a symbol. This (Class D
Airspace) airport has its own Approach control (shared position in the
tower, actually). Unfortunately at no place on the Sectional is a
frequency for approach given, even on the tables next to the chart.

At Nantucket, Mass. (KACK) there is such a symbol. This (Class D
Airspace) airport does not have approach control. Radar services are
provided by Cape Approach during the day and Boston Center during the
night. (Active times are not given, but there are boxes on the map
itself that indicate what frequency to use for Cape Approach).

Stewart Intl, NY (KSWF) also has such a symbol. Radar services are
provided by New York TRACON.
(all of these airports are on the NY Sectional).

So what does this symbol really mean? At one airport where it is used,
the airport has a hidden-from-the-chart approach frequency. (The
frequency is of course available in the Airport/Facility Directory and
IIRC via ATIS among other places). At other airports, radar services
are provided by facilities that also provide service to many other
airports (without the R symbol.)

The only thing that I can think of is that it indicates there is a radar
(ASR) antenna on the field for a class D facility. Then again, Class D
airspace airport KMDT (Harrisburg Int'l) has such an antenna (atop the
hill nearby), but no such R in a circle icon on the sectional. It does
however had a surrounding TRSA with a TRACON, so perhaps that is why no
R in a circle is necessary.

[Richard Russell]

On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 23:53:21 -0400, Jeff Saylor >
wrote:

>The R in a circle symbol next to an airport on Sectionals nindicates
>that this airport has Airport Surveillance Radar. But what does this
>really indicate to the VFR pilot?
>
>At Reading, Pennsylvania (KRDG) there is such a symbol. This (Class D
>Airspace) airport has its own Approach control (shared position in the
>tower, actually). Unfortunately at no place on the Sectional is a
>frequency for approach given, even on the tables next to the chart.
>
snipped...

I'm familiar with Reading and their little "R", which caused me a
little confusion when I was learning how to fly. To me, the "R" means
that they (in all likelihood) have their own approach control and you
need to track down the frequency. Like a TRSA, it is voluntary but
certainly adviseable to be talking to these folks. If I encounter an
"R" or a TRSA, I treat them the same as I would a Class C.

By the way, when I first noticed the "R" at Reading I had one hell of
a time finding someone to explain it to me. Ultimately had to figure
it out on my own.

Rich Russell

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Jeff Saylor" > wrote in message
...
>
> The R in a circle symbol next to an airport on Sectionals nindicates
> that this airport has Airport Surveillance Radar. But what does this
> really indicate to the VFR pilot?
>
> At Reading, Pennsylvania (KRDG) there is such a symbol. This
> (Class D Airspace) airport has its own Approach control (shared
> position in the tower, actually). Unfortunately at no place on the
> Sectional is a frequency for approach given, even on the tables next
> to the chart.
>
> At Nantucket, Mass. (KACK) there is such a symbol. This (Class D
> Airspace) airport does not have approach control. Radar services are
> provided by Cape Approach during the day and Boston Center
> during the night. (Active times are not given, but there are boxes on
> the map itself that indicate what frequency to use for Cape Approach).
>
> Stewart Intl, NY (KSWF) also has such a symbol. Radar services are
> provided by New York TRACON.
> (all of these airports are on the NY Sectional).
>
> So what does this symbol really mean? At one airport where it is used,
> the airport has a hidden-from-the-chart approach frequency. (The
> frequency is of course available in the Airport/Facility Directory and
> IIRC via ATIS among other places). At other airports, radar services
> are provided by facilities that also provide service to many other
> airports (without the R symbol.)
>
> The only thing that I can think of is that it indicates there is a radar
> (ASR) antenna on the field for a class D facility. Then again, Class D
> airspace airport KMDT (Harrisburg Int'l) has such an antenna (atop the
> hill nearby), but no such R in a circle icon on the sectional. It does
> however had a surrounding TRSA with a TRACON, so perhaps that
> is why no R in a circle is necessary.
>

The blue R in a circle symbol is used to indicate the presence of ASR where
there is no other indication. It would be superfluous at the core airports
in Class B and C airspace and TRSAs. It doesn't matter where the approach
control facility is located.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Richard Russell" > wrote in message
...
>
> I'm familiar with Reading and their little "R", which caused me a
> little confusion when I was learning how to fly. To me, the "R" means
> that they (in all likelihood) have their own approach control and you
> need to track down the frequency. Like a TRSA, it is voluntary but
> certainly adviseable to be talking to these folks. If I encounter an
> "R" or a TRSA, I treat them the same as I would a Class C.
>
> By the way, when I first noticed the "R" at Reading I had one hell of
> a time finding someone to explain it to me. Ultimately had to figure
> it out on my own.
>

The R in a circle symbol indicates ASR is on the field, it's used
at airports when no other indication of the presence of radar exists, such
as Class B or C airspace or a TRSA. In the Airport Data block there should
also be an ATIS frequency or a "VFR Advsy" frequency, (more likely ATIS).
At fields with ATIS the recording should have the frequency for traffic
advisories, at fields without ATIS the VFR Advsy frequency will be in the
data block.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Jeff Saylor wrote:
>
> The R in a circle symbol next to an airport on Sectionals nindicates
> that this airport has Airport Surveillance Radar.

No, it doesn't. It indicates a private airport. The one you mention near Stewart is
named "Middle Hope".

George Patterson
If you don't tell lies, you never have to remember what you said.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
> No, it doesn't. It indicates a private airport. The one you mention
> near Stewart is named "Middle Hope".
>

I believe he's referring to the R inside the small blue circle next to the
airport name, not the magenta R inside the airport symbol.

[Bill Denton]

No, that's a different symbol...

Look on your sectional legend under Airport Data. It shows a solid circle
with a white "R" next to the airport name indicating "Airport Surveillance
Radar".

I made the same mistake when I first started checking this out on a
Sectional...


"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Jeff Saylor wrote:
> >
> > The R in a circle symbol next to an airport on Sectionals nindicates
> > that this airport has Airport Surveillance Radar.
>
> No, it doesn't. It indicates a private airport. The one you mention near
Stewart is
> named "Middle Hope".
>
> George Patterson
> If you don't tell lies, you never have to remember what you said.

[Bill Denton]

Follow on:

I did a quick scan of the Chicago Sectional, and the only one I found was
Waterloo (ALO).


"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Jeff Saylor wrote:
> >
> > The R in a circle symbol next to an airport on Sectionals nindicates
> > that this airport has Airport Surveillance Radar.
>
> No, it doesn't. It indicates a private airport. The one you mention near
Stewart is
> named "Middle Hope".
>
> George Patterson
> If you don't tell lies, you never have to remember what you said.

[G.R. Patterson III]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:
>
> I believe he's referring to the R inside the small blue circle next to the
> airport name, not the magenta R inside the airport symbol.

Right. My mistake.

George Patterson
If you don't tell lies, you never have to remember what you said.

[Teacherjh]

>>
The R in a circle symbol indicates ASR is on the field, it's used
at airports when no other indication of the presence of radar exists, such
as Class B or C airspace or a TRSA.
<<

Which raises another question. What is in a TRSA that isn't anywhere else? I
know a TRSA is sort of a stillborn class C, and (from the name) you can get
"radar services".

So, which ones?

Is it the case that you can get the same (radar) services in a TRSA that you
can get in class B or C airspace, or the airports with the circle R (that isn't
the one meaning "restricted/private airport"), and it's just that because of
traffic volume or the thought it would become a class C that the airspace was
carved into sectors?

And what services can you not get outside the sectors that you can get inside
them?

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Teacherjh" > wrote in message
...
>
> Which raises another question. What is in a TRSA that isn't
> anywhere else? I know a TRSA is sort of a stillborn class C,
> and (from the name) you can get "radar services".
>
> So, which ones?
>

VFR aircraft are separated from IFR and other VFR aircraft in a TRSA, but
participation is voluntary. VFR aircraft are separated only from IFR
aircraft in Class C airspace, but participation is mandatory. All aircraft
are sequenced to the primary airport in Class C airspace, not so in a TRSA.

[Ron Natalie]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message news:lIRjc.5945
>
> VFR aircraft are separated from IFR and other VFR aircraft in a TRSA, but
> participation is voluntary. VFR aircraft are separated only from IFR
> aircraft in Class C airspace, but participation is mandatory. All aircraft
> are sequenced to the primary airport in Class C airspace, not so in a TRSA.

One thing that VFR's should note, that while participation is voluntary in the TRSA,
many TRSA towers get a bit testy if you don't go in through the TRSA-approach
control.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
>
> One thing that VFR's should note, that while participation is voluntary
> in the TRSA, many TRSA towers get a bit testy if you don't go in
> through the TRSA-approach control.
>

Sure, because now they've gotta find you and sequence you. If all VFR
arrivals use TRSA services, which require separation between all aircraft,
sequencing is automatic.

[Hamish Reid]

In article et>,
"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote:

> "Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
> m...
> >
> > One thing that VFR's should note, that while participation is voluntary
> > in the TRSA, many TRSA towers get a bit testy if you don't go in
> > through the TRSA-approach control.
>
> Sure, because now they've gotta find you and sequence you. If all VFR
> arrivals use TRSA services, which require separation between all aircraft,
> sequencing is automatic.

Idle question: how common are TRSAs? I can find only one in all of
California, but that doesn't say much about other parts of the US.

Hamish

[Bill Denton]

I found only one on the Chicago Sectional, at Waterloo (ALO).


"Hamish Reid" > wrote in message
...
> In article et>,
> "Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote:
>
> > "Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
> > m...
> > >
> > > One thing that VFR's should note, that while participation is
voluntary
> > > in the TRSA, many TRSA towers get a bit testy if you don't go in
> > > through the TRSA-approach control.
> >
> > Sure, because now they've gotta find you and sequence you. If all VFR
> > arrivals use TRSA services, which require separation between all
aircraft,
> > sequencing is automatic.
>
> Idle question: how common are TRSAs? I can find only one in all of
> California, but that doesn't say much about other parts of the US.
>
> Hamish

[ZikZak]

On 4/28/04 11:27 AM, in article
, "Hamish Reid"
> wrote:

> Idle question: how common are TRSAs? I can find only one in all of
> California, but that doesn't say much about other parts of the US.
>
> Hamish

There are five on the New York sectional: Elmira NY, Binghamton NY, Utica
NY, Wilkes-Barre PA, and Harrisburg PA.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Hamish Reid" > wrote in message
...
>
> Idle question: how common are TRSAs? I can find only one in all of
> California, but that doesn't say much about other parts of the US.
>

I know of TRSAs at Rockford, Illinois, and Muskegon and Kalamazoo, Michigan.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Bill Denton" > wrote in message
...
>
> I found only one on the Chicago Sectional, at Waterloo (ALO).
>

ALO does not have a TRSA.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?O15B32828

[Bill Denton]

Please review the subject of this thread, which is the use of an "R" in a
circle on Sectional Charts to denote the presence of Airport Surveillance
Radar at specific airports.

It appears Mr. Reid introduced TRSA's into the mix, a point I failed to
note. And it appears that a TRSA is not the same thing as Airport
Surveillance Radar.

So, my statement, in response to the original subject, that the only Airport
Surveillance Radar on the Chicago Sectional is at Waterloo (ALO) is correct,
assuming that I found all that were on the chart.

And your statement, in response to the changed subject: "I know of TRSAs at
Rockford, Illinois, and Muskegon and Kalamazoo, Michigan", is also correct.



"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Hamish Reid" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Idle question: how common are TRSAs? I can find only one in all of
> > California, but that doesn't say much about other parts of the US.
> >
>
> I know of TRSAs at Rockford, Illinois, and Muskegon and Kalamazoo,
Michigan.
>
>

[Hamish Reid]

In article >,
"Bill Denton" > wrote:

> Please review the subject of this thread, which is the use of an "R" in a
> circle on Sectional Charts to denote the presence of Airport Surveillance
> Radar at specific airports.

Thread drift, it's called :-).

> It appears Mr. Reid introduced TRSA's into the mix, a point I failed to
> note.

Erm, what?! It appears Ron Natalie, in
m>, introduced TRSAs
into the mix, a point you failed to note:

> "Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
> m...
> >
> > One thing that VFR's should note, that while participation is voluntary
> > in the TRSA, many TRSA towers get a bit testy if you don't go in
> > through the TRSA-approach control.

That was included in the article of mine that you responded to. And it
may have been introduced earlier by someone else -- I didn't follow the
references all the way. I just happened to notice the reference to
TRSAs, and started wondering...

> And it appears that a TRSA is not the same thing as Airport
> Surveillance Radar.

Well, no -- TRSAs are a lot rarer than ASRs. Which is why I asked the
question about TRSAs (having never actually encountered one myself).

Such is Usenet, I guess.

Hamish

[Hamish Reid]

In article et>,
"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote:

> "Hamish Reid" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Idle question: how common are TRSAs? I can find only one in all of
> > California, but that doesn't say much about other parts of the US.
>
> I know of TRSAs at Rockford, Illinois, and Muskegon and Kalamazoo, Michigan.

Thanks. I can find only one on the LA sectional, and none at all on the
SF or Klamath sectionals. But then I may have missed a few while
searching here at work....

Hamish

[Bill Denton]

My apologies if I unduly credited you. Actually, TRSA's were first mentioned
in the second message on this thread. I simply felt your message was the
first to directly address TRSA's, as opposed to simply referencing them.

In the body of your message, you stated: "TRSAs are a lot rarer than ASRs".
However, as has been noted, The Chicago Sectional shows one ASR and three
TRSA's, which would contradict your observation.

But, given that aviation facilities are unevenly distributed around the
nation, I would not find that surprising!


"Hamish Reid" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Bill Denton" > wrote:
>
> > Please review the subject of this thread, which is the use of an "R" in
a
> > circle on Sectional Charts to denote the presence of Airport
Surveillance
> > Radar at specific airports.
>
> Thread drift, it's called :-).
>
> > It appears Mr. Reid introduced TRSA's into the mix, a point I failed to
> > note.
>
> Erm, what?! It appears Ron Natalie, in
> m>, introduced TRSAs
> into the mix, a point you failed to note:
>
> > "Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
> > m...
> > >
> > > One thing that VFR's should note, that while participation is
voluntary
> > > in the TRSA, many TRSA towers get a bit testy if you don't go in
> > > through the TRSA-approach control.
>
> That was included in the article of mine that you responded to. And it
> may have been introduced earlier by someone else -- I didn't follow the
> references all the way. I just happened to notice the reference to
> TRSAs, and started wondering...
>
> > And it appears that a TRSA is not the same thing as Airport
> > Surveillance Radar.
>
> Well, no -- TRSAs are a lot rarer than ASRs. Which is why I asked the
> question about TRSAs (having never actually encountered one myself).
>
> Such is Usenet, I guess.
>
> Hamish

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Bill Denton" > wrote in message
...
>
> Please review the subject of this thread, which is the use of an "R" in a
> circle on Sectional Charts to denote the presence of Airport Surveillance
> Radar at specific airports.
>
> It appears Mr. Reid introduced TRSA's into the mix, a point I failed to
> note. And it appears that a TRSA is not the same thing as Airport
> Surveillance Radar.
>
> So, my statement, in response to the original subject, that the only
Airport
> Surveillance Radar on the Chicago Sectional is at Waterloo (ALO) is
correct,
> assuming that I found all that were on the chart.
>
> And your statement, in response to the changed subject: "I know of TRSAs
at
> Rockford, Illinois, and Muskegon and Kalamazoo, Michigan", is also
correct.
>

So please pay better attention to the messages you're responding to.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Bill Denton" > wrote in message
...
>
> In the body of your message, you stated: "TRSAs are a lot rarer
> than ASRs". However, as has been noted, The Chicago Sectional
> shows one ASR and three TRSA's, which would contradict your
> observation.
>

Actually it wouldn't, as the presence of ASR is indicated by the depiction
of Class B or Class C airspace, by a TRSA, or by the little blue R.

[Bill Denton]

You're wrong; go look at the legend on a Sectional and review the AIM.

This subject is of zero importance to me; I have no interest in discussing
it with you further.

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Bill Denton" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > In the body of your message, you stated: "TRSAs are a lot rarer
> > than ASRs". However, as has been noted, The Chicago Sectional
> > shows one ASR and three TRSA's, which would contradict your
> > observation.
> >
>
> Actually it wouldn't, as the presence of ASR is indicated by the depiction
> of Class B or Class C airspace, by a TRSA, or by the little blue R.
>
>

[Bill Denton]

I will give each message as much attention as I can, which is not always
very much. And I am not going to get upset with myself if I miss a situation
where someone changes the subject mid-thread.

And you will notice I had no problem acknowledging my mistake.


"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Bill Denton" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Please review the subject of this thread, which is the use of an "R" in
a
> > circle on Sectional Charts to denote the presence of Airport
Surveillance
> > Radar at specific airports.
> >
> > It appears Mr. Reid introduced TRSA's into the mix, a point I failed to
> > note. And it appears that a TRSA is not the same thing as Airport
> > Surveillance Radar.
> >
> > So, my statement, in response to the original subject, that the only
> Airport
> > Surveillance Radar on the Chicago Sectional is at Waterloo (ALO) is
> correct,
> > assuming that I found all that were on the chart.
> >
> > And your statement, in response to the changed subject: "I know of TRSAs
> at
> > Rockford, Illinois, and Muskegon and Kalamazoo, Michigan", is also
> correct.
> >
>
> So please pay better attention to the messages you're responding to.
>
>

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Bill Denton" > wrote in message
...
>
> You're wrong; go look at the legend on a Sectional and review
> the AIM.
>

No, I'm not wrong. Every airport with Class B or Class C airspace or a TRSA
has ASR. Hell, the reason they're established is to provide radar services,
how could they do that without radar? There's no need for the little blue R
at these airports because the presence of Class B or Class C airspace or a
TRSA indicates they have ASR, the R would be superfluous.


>
> This subject is of zero importance to me; I have no interest in discussing
> it with you further.
>

If it had no importance to you why'd you join the discussion?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Bill Denton" > wrote in message
...
>
> The purpose of the "R" is to denote airports that have ASR but that do not
> fit into any of the categories you noted, which would have ASR by default.
> It indicates the existence of ASR at locations where there would be no
other
> indication to a pilot that it existed.
>

Now you're catchin' on!

[Bill Denton]

The purpose of the "R" is to denote airports that have ASR but that do not
fit into any of the categories you noted, which would have ASR by default.
It indicates the existence of ASR at locations where there would be no other
indication to a pilot that it existed.



"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "Bill Denton" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > You're wrong; go look at the legend on a Sectional and review
> > the AIM.
> >
>
> No, I'm not wrong. Every airport with Class B or Class C airspace or a
TRSA
> has ASR. Hell, the reason they're established is to provide radar
services,
> how could they do that without radar? There's no need for the little blue
R
> at these airports because the presence of Class B or Class C airspace or a
> TRSA indicates they have ASR, the R would be superfluous.
>
>
> >
> > This subject is of zero importance to me; I have no interest in
discussing
> > it with you further.
> >
>
> If it had no importance to you why'd you join the discussion?
>
>

[Hamish Reid]

In article >,
"Bill Denton" > wrote:

> My apologies if I unduly credited you. Actually, TRSA's were first mentioned
> in the second message on this thread. I simply felt your message was the
> first to directly address TRSA's, as opposed to simply referencing them.
>
> In the body of your message, you stated: "TRSAs are a lot rarer than ASRs".
> However, as has been noted, The Chicago Sectional shows one ASR and three
> TRSA's, which would contradict your observation.

I'm not sure I follow -- there are (probably) ASRs at (or for) all the
Class C and B airports on the Chicago sectional, as for (say) the SF
sectional. In the case I was thinking of, there's exactly one TRSA in
California, but maybe half a dozen ASRs in the combined San Francisco
Bay Area / Sacramento area alone (and, from memory, a similar number in
the LA area). Only a few of these are marked on the sectional
explictly, whereas a TRSA would always be explictly marked.

The fact that the sectional only explicitly notes that an airport has
an associated ASR when that can't be inferred from other information
doesn't mean the ASRs aren't there...

Hamish

[Bill Denton]

This is one of those threads that has taken on a misbegotten life of it's
on!

Here's an excerpt of one of my previous posts that (I think) provides the
correct answer to the original question on this thread:

The purpose of the "R" is to denote airports that have ASR where there would
be no other indication to a pilot that it existed.

Hopefully this will end it and we can move on to other fun stuff!



"Hamish Reid" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Bill Denton" > wrote:
>
> > My apologies if I unduly credited you. Actually, TRSA's were first
mentioned
> > in the second message on this thread. I simply felt your message was the
> > first to directly address TRSA's, as opposed to simply referencing them.
> >
> > In the body of your message, you stated: "TRSAs are a lot rarer than
ASRs".
> > However, as has been noted, The Chicago Sectional shows one ASR and
three
> > TRSA's, which would contradict your observation.
>
> I'm not sure I follow -- there are (probably) ASRs at (or for) all the
> Class C and B airports on the Chicago sectional, as for (say) the SF
> sectional. In the case I was thinking of, there's exactly one TRSA in
> California, but maybe half a dozen ASRs in the combined San Francisco
> Bay Area / Sacramento area alone (and, from memory, a similar number in
> the LA area). Only a few of these are marked on the sectional
> explictly, whereas a TRSA would always be explictly marked.
>
> The fact that the sectional only explicitly notes that an airport has
> an associated ASR when that can't be inferred from other information
> doesn't mean the ASRs aren't there...
>
> Hamish

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Bill Denton" > wrote in message
...
>
> Here's an excerpt of one of my previous posts that (I think)
> provides the correct answer to the original question on this thread:
>
> The purpose of the "R" is to denote airports that have ASR where
> there would be no other indication to a pilot that it existed.
>
> Hopefully this will end it and we can move on to other fun stuff!
>

The correct answer was posted three days ago.

[Teacherjh]

>> The correct answer was posted three days ago.

The incorrect answer was also postd three days ago.

(sorry, couldn't resist.)

Jose
(you know the one about the pilot who's lost somewhere around Redmond....)
--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Hamish Reid]

In article >,
"Bill Denton" > wrote:

> This is one of those threads that has taken on a misbegotten life of it's
> on!
>
> Here's an excerpt of one of my previous posts that (I think) provides the
> correct answer to the original question on this thread:
>
> The purpose of the "R" is to denote airports that have ASR where there would
> be no other indication to a pilot that it existed.

I don't think anyone is contradicting this. But it's hardly the subject
of many of the articles you've been responding directly to.

> Hopefully this will end it and we can move on to other fun stuff!

I guess I still don't follow... I made the mild claim that TRSAs seem
to be a lot rarer than ASRs (and else-thread pointed out that the
entire West Coast region seems to have only one or two TRSAs vs several
dozen ASRs at least). In article
you objected to this and said that because the Chicago sectional shows
one ASR and three TRSAs, this would contradict my observation.

But the Chicago sectional depicts quite a lot more than one ASR, and in
some other parts of the country the ASR/TRSA ratio is even greater. So
basically, it seems that TRSAs are relatively rare compared to ASRs. So
I don't understand your objection.

Hamish

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Hamish Reid" > wrote in message
...
>
> I guess I still don't follow... I made the mild claim that TRSAs seem
> to be a lot rarer than ASRs (and else-thread pointed out that the
> entire West Coast region seems to have only one or two TRSAs
> vs several dozen ASRs at least). In article

> you objected to this and said that because the Chicago sectional shows
> one ASR and three TRSAs, this would contradict my observation.
>
> But the Chicago sectional depicts quite a lot more than one ASR, and in >
some other parts of the country the ASR/TRSA ratio is even greater.
> basically, it seems that TRSAs are relatively rare compared to ASRs.
> So I don't understand your objection.
>

TRSAs are relatively rare compared to Class B or Class C airspace areas.
Every TRSA has ASR.

[Hamish Reid]

In article et>,
"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote:

> "Hamish Reid" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > I guess I still don't follow... I made the mild claim that TRSAs seem
> > to be a lot rarer than ASRs (and else-thread pointed out that the
> > entire West Coast region seems to have only one or two TRSAs
> > vs several dozen ASRs at least). In article
>
> > you objected to this and said that because the Chicago sectional shows
> > one ASR and three TRSAs, this would contradict my observation.
> >
> > But the Chicago sectional depicts quite a lot more than one ASR, and in >
> some other parts of the country the ASR/TRSA ratio is even greater.
> > basically, it seems that TRSAs are relatively rare compared to ASRs.
> > So I don't understand your objection.
> >
>
> TRSAs are relatively rare compared to Class B or Class C airspace areas.
> Every TRSA has ASR.

D'Oh! Of course...

So does anyone know if there's a US-wide list of TRSAs anywhere?
Googling around brought me lots of info on individual TRSAs and the
definition of a TRSA (and a thing called the Tom's River Soccer
Association), but no obvious list.

Hamish

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Hamish Reid" > wrote in message
...
>
> So does anyone know if there's a US-wide list of TRSAs anywhere?
>

I searched for such a list rather extensively a couple of years ago. I
couldn't find one.

[William W. Plummer]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
.net...
>
> "Hamish Reid" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > So does anyone know if there's a US-wide list of TRSAs anywhere?
> >
>
> I searched for such a list rather extensively a couple of years ago. I
> couldn't find one.

There was one but I think it went away when the FAA moved to the ICAO
airspace definitions. TRSAs don't fit into that.

[Jeff Saylor]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

> "Jeff Saylor" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > The R in a circle symbol next to an airport on Sectionals nindicates
> > that this airport has Airport Surveillance Radar. But what does this
> > really indicate to the VFR pilot?
> >
> > At Reading, Pennsylvania (KRDG) there is such a symbol. This
> > (Class D Airspace) airport has its own Approach control (shared
> > position in the tower, actually). Unfortunately at no place on the
> > Sectional is a frequency for approach given, even on the tables next
> > to the chart.
> >
> > At Nantucket, Mass. (KACK) there is such a symbol. This (Class D
> > Airspace) airport does not have approach control. Radar services are
> > provided by Cape Approach during the day and Boston Center
> > during the night. (Active times are not given, but there are boxes on
> > the map itself that indicate what frequency to use for Cape Approach).
> >
> > Stewart Intl, NY (KSWF) also has such a symbol. Radar services are
> > provided by New York TRACON.
> > (all of these airports are on the NY Sectional).
> >
> > So what does this symbol really mean? At one airport where it is used,
> > the airport has a hidden-from-the-chart approach frequency. (The
> > frequency is of course available in the Airport/Facility Directory and
> > IIRC via ATIS among other places). At other airports, radar services
> > are provided by facilities that also provide service to many other
> > airports (without the R symbol.)
> >
> > The only thing that I can think of is that it indicates there is a radar
> > (ASR) antenna on the field for a class D facility. Then again, Class D
> > airspace airport KMDT (Harrisburg Int'l) has such an antenna (atop the
> > hill nearby), but no such R in a circle icon on the sectional. It does
> > however had a surrounding TRSA with a TRACON, so perhaps that
> > is why no R in a circle is necessary.
> >
>
> The blue R in a circle symbol is used to indicate the presence of ASR where
> there is no other indication. It would be superfluous at the core airports
> in Class B and C airspace and TRSAs. It doesn't matter where the approach
> control facility is located.

Ok, I get that, but what makes this information useful to the pilot? For
example, what is available to a pilot landing at Nantucket (Class D, Cape
Approach, R-in-circle) that is not available at Vineyard Haven (Martha's
Vineyard with Class D, Cape Appraoch, No R-in-circle)? Both airports have a
number of approaches, including ILS that controllers can vector pilots to.

[Neil Gould]

Hi,

PMJI...

Recently, Jeff Saylor > posted:
> "Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:
>>
>> The blue R in a circle symbol is used to indicate the presence of
>> ASR where there is no other indication. It would be superfluous at
>> the core airports in Class B and C airspace and TRSAs. It doesn't
>> matter where the approach control facility is located.
>
> Ok, I get that, but what makes this information useful to the pilot?
> For example, what is available to a pilot landing at Nantucket (Class
> D, Cape Approach, R-in-circle) that is not available at Vineyard
> Haven (Martha's Vineyard with Class D, Cape Appraoch, No
> R-in-circle)? Both airports have a number of approaches, including
> ILS that controllers can vector pilots to.
>
Steven gave a useful response by stating that "It doesn't matter here the
approach control facility is located." All the pilot needs to know is who
to talk to. This information is listed in a legend on the back of the
chart. ;-)

Neil

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Jeff Saylor" > wrote in message
...
>
> Ok, I get that, but what makes this information useful to the pilot?
>

It tells the pilot where ASR is located when there is no other indicator and
how to obtain radar services.


>
> For example, what is available to a pilot landing at Nantucket (Class
> D, Cape Approach, R-in-circle) that is not available at Vineyard
> Haven (Martha's Vineyard with Class D, Cape Appraoch, No
> R-in-circle)? Both airports have a number of approaches,
> including ILS that controllers can vector pilots to.
>

If you're operating IFR it's not an issue. If you're operating VFR, you
wouldn't know that radar services were available if the information was not
published somewhere. What better place to put it than the sectional, the
publication most used by VFR pilots?

[Jeff Saylor]

Neil Gould wrote:

> Hi,
>
> PMJI...
>
> Recently, Jeff Saylor > posted:
> > "Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:
> >>
> >> The blue R in a circle symbol is used to indicate the presence of
> >> ASR where there is no other indication. It would be superfluous at
> >> the core airports in Class B and C airspace and TRSAs. It doesn't
> >> matter where the approach control facility is located.
> >
> > Ok, I get that, but what makes this information useful to the pilot?
> > For example, what is available to a pilot landing at Nantucket (Class
> > D, Cape Approach, R-in-circle) that is not available at Vineyard
> > Haven (Martha's Vineyard with Class D, Cape Appraoch, No
> > R-in-circle)? Both airports have a number of approaches, including
> > ILS that controllers can vector pilots to.
> >
> Steven gave a useful response by stating that "It doesn't matter here the
> approach control facility is located."

That's true, but my question is, what maks this information useful to the
pilot? That is, how does the blue R/Circle symbol benefit the (VFR) pilot?
What is available at the airport with a blue R/Circle that is not available
at an (non TRSA or Class c&d) airport lacking the symbol?

> All the pilot needs to know is who
> to talk to. This information is listed in a legend on the back of the
> chart. ;-)

As I mentioned earlier, that is not (necessarily) true. Take the example of
KRDG, which has the blue R/Circle symbol. Just try to find the approach
frequency for that airport anywhere on the sectional! (It isn't there, even
on the back of the chart, the side, etc..)

[Jeff Saylor]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

> "Jeff Saylor" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Ok, I get that, but what makes this information useful to the pilot?
> >
>
> It tells the pilot where ASR is located when there is no other indicator and
> how to obtain radar services.
>
> >
> > For example, what is available to a pilot landing at Nantucket (Class
> > D, Cape Approach, R-in-circle) that is not available at Vineyard
> > Haven (Martha's Vineyard with Class D, Cape Appraoch, No
> > R-in-circle)? Both airports have a number of approaches,
> > including ILS that controllers can vector pilots to.
> >
>
> If you're operating IFR it's not an issue. If you're operating VFR, you
> wouldn't know that radar services were available if the information was not
> published somewhere.

Thanks for the explanation, although I haven't found any more or less radar
services to be available at KACK (Nantucket, w/ the R symbol) than at KMVY
(Vineyard Haven) or even KPVC, which was why I am curious.


> What better place to put it than the sectional, the
> publication most used by VFR pilots?

Sounds good. I just wish they felt the same away about approach control
frequencies for airports such as KRDG. :)

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Jeff Saylor" > wrote in message
...
>
> Thanks for the explanation, although I haven't found any more or
> less radar services to be available at KACK (Nantucket, w/ the
> R symbol) than at KMVY (Vineyard Haven) or even KPVC,
> which was why I am curious.
>

The symbol indicates where the ASR is located, of course radar services are
available at other airports within range. Typically 30 miles or more.


>
> Sounds good. I just wish they felt the same away about approach
> control frequencies for airports such as KRDG. :)
>

In the Airport Data block there should be an ATIS frequency or a "VFR Advsy"
frequency, (more likely ATIS). At fields with ATIS the recording should
have the frequency for traffic advisories, at fields without ATIS the VFR
Advsy frequency will be in the data block.

[Teacherjh]

>>
The symbol indicates where the ASR is located, of course radar services are
available at other airports within range. Typically 30 miles or more.
<<

All well and good, but the pilot needs to know whether services are available
at the airport of intended landing. To scour the thirty miles of nearby
airrports for an (R) makes more work for the pilot (though less work for the
cartographer.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Teacherjh" > wrote in message
...
>
> All well and good, but the pilot needs to know whether services
> are available at the airport of intended landing.
>

Why?

[Teacherjh]

>>
> All well and good, but the pilot needs to know whether services
> are available at the airport of intended landing.

Why?
<<

Because that's the airport he intends to land at.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Teacherjh" > wrote in message
...
>
> Because that's the airport he intends to land at.
>

He can't land if there's no radar at the airport of intended landing?

[Teacherjh]

>>
> Because that's the airport he intends to land at.

He can't land if there's no radar at the airport of intended landing?
<<

He can't get radar services if there are no radar services at the airport of
intended landing. So he needs to know if there are radar services at that
airport. He doesn't need to know if the radar providing those services is
physically located there (which is what the (R) would tell you)

Jose



--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Teacherjh" > wrote in message
...
>
> He can't get radar services if there are no radar services at the
> airport of intended landing. So he needs to know if there are
> radar services at that airport. He doesn't need to know if the
> radar providing those services is physically located there (which
> is what the (R) would tell you)
>

So radar services are provided only to the airport with the R?

[Teacherjh]

>> So radar services are provided only to the airport with the R?

No. Which is why the (R) is not as useful as it could be.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Teacherjh" > wrote in message
...
>
> No.
>

How far from the airport with the R are radar services provided?


>
> Which is why the (R) is not as useful as it could be.
>

How could it be made more useful?

[Teacherjh]

>> How far from the airport with the R are radar services provided?

I don't know. But suppose I did (and suppose the answer were 30nm). I'd need
to look at my airport of intended landing (no (R)) and then every airport
within 30 nm (probably only the towered ones though) looking for the (R) symbol
to see if there was a radar unit close enough to my intended. Then I'd have to
guess or assume that my intended would be covered by this distant radar
(terrain may prevent this), or I'd have to go looking in some publication
(A/FD) to see if there were such a limitation.

>> How could [the (R) symbol] be made more useful?

By putting it at every airport which had (specific) radar services, no matter
where the radar unit itself is located.

At least this would make it more useful to pilots in the cockpit, where leisure
is at a premium.

Actually, I've never used those symbols myself, and am not sure what "services"
I'd request from their hosts. However, I suspect that ASR approaches would be
available there (or, more accurately, would be unavailable elsewhere outside
ARSA, C & D). This is useful to know should all the gauges go in the poop at
the same time I hit the soup VFR, but a U-turn would be better.

Now, the symbol I find least useful is the C in a circle (indicating that the
frequency shown for the airport is a CTAF. I mean, aren't most of them?
(probably all of them)

Jose


--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Teacherjh" > wrote in message
...
>
> I don't know. But suppose I did (and suppose the answer
> were 30nm). I'd need to look at my airport of intended landing
> (no (R)) and then every airport within 30 nm (probably only the
> towered ones though) looking for the (R) symbol to see if there
> was a radar unit close enough to my intended.
>

Well, if the R is used to indicate the presence of ASR that means there's no
Class B or C airspace or a TRSA, which means you're in a fairly low
population area. Such areas don't tend to have a lot of towered fields so
there wouldn't be too many to examine for the R. I don't see a problem.


>
> Then I'd have to guess or assume that my intended would be
> covered by this distant radar (terrain may prevent this), or I'd have
> to go looking in some publication (A/FD) to see if there were such
> a limitation.
>

Thirty miles is distant? That's about half the nominal range of ASR.


>
> By putting it at every airport which had (specific) radar services,
> no matter where the radar unit itself is located.
>

What specific radar services are you talking about? I thought we were
talking about traffic advisories to VFR aircraft. What if I'm not landing
at any of those airports? What do all of those Rs do for me then?


>
> At least this would make it more useful to pilots in the cockpit,
> where leisure is at a premium.
>

I find most of my VFR cross country flights to be quite leisurely. I don't
see how putting an R at every airport within range of the ASR does anything
other than put a lot of Rs on the sectional. If you know where the ASR is
located, and you have a rudimentary knowledge of radar, then you have a good
idea where radar services are available.


>
> Actually, I've never used those symbols myself, and am not sure
> what "services" I'd request from their hosts.
>

You'd be requesting traffic advisories.


>
> However, I suspect that ASR approaches would be available there
> (or, more accurately, would be unavailable elsewhere outside
> ARSA, C & D).
>

Not necessarily, many locations that have ASR do not provide surveillance
approaches. Locations that do are found in section N of the TPP.


>
> This is useful to know should all the gauges go in the poop
> at the same time I hit the soup VFR, but a U-turn would be better.
>

You shouldn't hit the soup VFR.


>
> Now, the symbol I find least useful is the C in a circle (indicating
> that the frequency shown for the airport is a CTAF. I mean,
> aren't most of them?
> (probably all of them)
>

If CTAF was well understood the C symbol wouldn't have been created.
Probably the most common error was using the Unicom frequency for advisories
at locations with part-time towers. Now you'll find the C symbol following
the tower frequency at those locations.

[Teacherjh]

>>
Such areas don't tend to have a lot of towered fields so
there wouldn't be too many to examine for the R. I don't see a problem.
<<

The idea is to make life easier, not to make life "not that much harder". From
this pilot's perspective, looking one place for info is easier than looking
several places. Redundancy is sometimes a good idea (the quadrant altitudes
are redundant, but quite handy). True, there are tradeoffs (chart clutter, the
needs of other chart users, and the effort involved in charting more symbols);
I'm just addressing one side of it.

>> Thirty miles is distant? That's about half the nominal range of ASR.

I pulled the number out of my anatomy. (actually I remember seeing that figure
here in the newsgroups somewhere, but the exact figure isn't important to my
answer - I don't know what it is and suspect it's also terrain dependent)

>>
What specific radar services are you talking about? I thought we were
talking about traffic advisories to VFR aircraft.
<<

I don't know. An ASR approach maybe? (Yes, I got and learned from your reply
that ASR appraches aren't always available at an ASR site) But, IF there's a
symbol that says I can get "stuff" somewhere, I'd like to know what "stuff" I
can get. Then I can decide whether I want it, and whether the symbol really
gave me any useful inforamtion. When I want VFR advisories (whether I'm
landing at those airports or not), I call approach or center and ask for them,
symbol or no symbol. Should I do differently?

>>
I find most of my VFR cross country flights to be quite leisurely. I don't
see how putting an R at every airport within range of the ASR does anything
other than put a lot of Rs on the sectional.
<<

I pretty much agree here. Symbol clutter is already getting out of hand.

>>
If you know where the ASR is
located, and you have a rudimentary knowledge
of radar, then you have a good
idea where radar services are available.
<<

For flight following, I jsut call them, R or no R. I don't study all the
airports in a (ok, lets make it) 60 mile range of my course line to see what
the radar situation is. So, I won't likely notice the R if it's not at my
destination or near it.

>> You shouldn't hit the soup VFR.

No, of course not. I was attemting a humorous illustration, but it does
happen.

>>
If CTAF was well understood the C symbol wouldn't have been created.
Probably the most common error was using the Unicom frequency for advisories
at locations with part-time towers. Now you'll find the C symbol following
the tower frequency at those locations.
<<

WARNING SILICA GEL DO NOT EAT.

Gee, I just bought a new camera and they included a little snack! :)

===

So, the R means that, AT THAT AIRPORT is located the antenna for the same kind
of radar services (or the same range of kinds of radar services) offered at an
ARSA, C, or B. However, unlike an ARSA, there are no altitude ranges and
lateral limits made known to the pilots. So, I'm still scratching my head a
bit (and suspect the answer has to do with politics, salary grades, and
history)....

What is the difference between the airspace IN an ARSA, the airspace nearby but
OUTSIDE an ARSA, and the airspace outside ARSA, C, and B, but "near" an (R)?

I suspect: ARSA, C, and B provide =separation= to certain participating
aircraft (of varying levels) and the (R) provides advisories but no separation.

Yes?

Jose






--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Teacherjh" > wrote in message
...
>
> The idea is to make life easier, not to make life "not that much harder".
>

You don't think identifying the locations of ASR on the sectional makes life
just a bit easier?


>
> From this pilot's perspective, looking one place for info is easier
> than looking several places.
>

Explain.


>
> Redundancy is sometimes a good idea (the quadrant altitudes
> are redundant, but quite handy).
>

Redundancy? What has that to do with this discussion?


>
> True, there are tradeoffs (chart clutter, the needs of other chart
> users, and the effort involved in charting more symbols);
> I'm just addressing one side of it.
>

And yet you advocate adding clutter to the chart, clutter that provides no
information.


>
> I don't know. An ASR approach maybe?
>

Why would a pilot on a VFR cross country be interested in an ASR approach?


>
> (Yes, I got and learned from your reply that ASR appraches
> aren't always available at an ASR site) But, IF there's a
> symbol that says I can get "stuff" somewhere, I'd like to know
> what "stuff" I can get.
>

The R symbol identifies a radar facility, radar facilities provide radar
services. Are you unfamiliar with radar services?


>
> Then I can decide whether I want it, and whether the symbol really
> gave me any useful inforamtion. When I want VFR advisories
> (whether I'm landing at those airports or not), I call approach or
> center and ask for them, symbol or no symbol. Should I do
> differently?
>

Calling approach requires you to know there's an approach, the symbol tells
you there's an approach control providing radar services.


>
> I pretty much agree here. Symbol clutter is already getting out of hand.
>

And yet you advocate more of it.



>
> For flight following, I jsut call them, R or no R.
>

How do you know they're there to be called?


>
> What is the difference between the airspace IN an ARSA, the
> airspace nearby but OUTSIDE an ARSA, and the airspace
> outside ARSA, C, and B, but "near" an (R)?
>
> I suspect: ARSA, C, and B provide =separation= to certain
> participating aircraft (of varying levels) and the (R) provides
> advisories but no separation.
>

You mean TRSA, not ARSA, ARSAs became Class C airspace over ten years ago.

The differences were explained about ten days ago. All aircraft are
separated in Class B airspace. VFR aircraft are separated from IFR and
other VFR aircraft in a TRSA, but participation is voluntary. VFR aircraft
are separated only from IFR aircraft in Class C airspace, but participation
is mandatory. All aircraft are sequenced to the primary airport in Class C
airspace, not so in a TRSA. An approach control without Class B or Class C
airspace or a TRSA does not normally provide separation to VFR aircraft.

[Teacherjh]

>>
You don't think identifying the locations of ASR on the sectional makes life
just a bit easier?
<<

Than what? I don't want ASR, I want ASR services. Not the same.

>>
> From this pilot's perspective, looking one place for info is easier
> than looking several places.

Explain.
<<

If it takes three seconds to find an airport on the sectional and determine
whether or not there is ASR, and you have to do it seven times (because an
airport without an (R) could still get services), then it takes twenty one
seconds to determine whether services are available at your airport that
doesn't have an (R) but has an airport with an (R) near it, or that it doesn't,
because you can't find an airport with an (R) anywhere near the airport without
the (R) at which you intend to land.

Twenty-one is greater than three.

>> Redundancy? What has that to do with this discussion?

An idea I through out to the group was to put an (R) at every airport outside
B, C, ARSA which gets services. This would be redundant, since as you said,
the knowledge of the antenna location plus understanding of radar would allow
you to infer that services were available.

>>
And yet you advocate adding clutter to the chart, clutter that provides no
information.
<<

Exploring the idea, and still not sure why I should even pay attention to the
(R) in the first place. I already don't pay attention to the (C).

>>
The R symbol identifies a radar facility, radar facilities provide radar
services. Are you unfamiliar with radar services?
<<

I'm familar with radar. It's sort of like radio waves that bounce off my
airplane in the shape of letters and numbers that show up on a controller's
scope. Doesn't it have something to do with that thingabmabob in the cockpit
that has 1200 on it? (or sometimes 7700, when I have to take a leak) I've
never actually seen the letters fly through the air (I take it they are
invisible) but I have faith that they exist.

Anyway, radar facilities provide services to places without radar facilities.
So, the absence of an (R) doesn't tell me much.

>> How do you know they're there to be called?

They answer.

>>
You mean TRSA, not ARSA, ARSAs became Class C airspace over ten years ago.
<<

Ok, now you know when I got my certificate.

>> The differences were explained about ten days ago.

Yes, and this is why I didn't repeat them. But what do I get in an (R)?

Jose



--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Teacherjh" > wrote in message
...
>
> Than what? I don't want ASR, I want ASR services. Not the same.
>

Where you find ASR you tend to find ASR services.


>
> If it takes three seconds to find an airport on the sectional and
> determine whether or not there is ASR, and you have to do it
> seven times (because an airport without an (R) could still get
> services), then it takes twenty one seconds to determine
> whether services are available at your airport that doesn't have
> an (R) but has an airport with an (R) near it, or that it doesn't,
> because you can't find an airport with an (R) anywhere near the
> airport without the (R) at which you intend to land.
>
> Twenty-one is greater than three.
>

Where'd you pull those numbers from? It takes me a fraction of a second to
determine an airport has ASR.


>
> Exploring the idea, and still not sure why I should even pay attention
> to the (R) in the first place. I already don't pay attention to the (C).
>

The R tells you where ASR is located when there is no other indication.
Where you find ASR you find radar services. If you don't want radar
services there's no reason to pay any attention to the R.


>
> I'm familar with radar.
>

Your messages suggest otherwise.


>
> They answer.
>

You know they're there to be called because they answer when called? Sounds
rather circular.


>
> Ok, now you know when I got my certificate.
>

I don't know that you have a certificate.




>
> Yes, and this is why I didn't repeat them. But what do I get in an (R)?
>

It's questions like that suggest you're not familiar with radar.

[Teacherjh]

>> Where you find ASR you tend to find ASR services.

But where you don't find ASR, you don't tend not to find ASR services.

>>
It takes me a fraction of a second to
determine an airport has ASR.
<<

But how long to find the airport (on the chart) in the first place? i.e. once
you've determined that XAV has no (R) you need to find the next nearest
airport... and see if it has an (R). That time counts too.

>>
You know they're there to be called because they answer when called? Sounds
rather circular.
<<

I'm playing with you, but just a little. When I take off, I know what the
departure frequency is. (I look it up in the A/FD). Once I contact them. I'm
in. They hand me off as needed, or suggest "contact Xannadu approach in twenty
miles on 113.325".

If (it's never happened to me) they just drop me with no clue, then I suppose
if I scramble around my charts, I'll find an (R) someplace there's radar. OK,
now I know there's radar. Now what? I still gotta call someone to get it.
The tower?

Far more useful would be the frequency to call on, and boundaries as to where,
though I do appreciate that there are good reasons not to put this on the
charts. I just haven't decided whether these good reasons are good enough.

>>
> But what do I get in an (R)?

It's questions like that suggest you're not familiar with radar.
<<

And it's the lack of an answer that suggests the same thing to me. Radar is
that radio wave bounce thing, right? Like a rubber ball full of electrons and
morse codes. ;)

An airport has an (R). What does that really tell me other than that the
facility is located there? What can I get in terms of advisories and
separation, and how far out, and who do I call?

Jose





--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Teacherjh" > wrote in message
...
>
> But where you don't find ASR, you don't tend not to find ASR services.
>

Nonsense. Where you don't find ASR you don't find ASR services.


>
> But how long to find the airport (on the chart) in the first place?
>

Another fraction of a second.


>
> I'm playing with you, but just a little.
>

You only think you are.


>
> If (it's never happened to me) they just drop me with no clue, then
> I suppose if I scramble around my charts, I'll find an (R)
> someplace there's radar. OK, now I know there's radar. Now
> what? I still gotta call someone to get it.
> The tower?
>

That was explained early in the thread. I suggest you review it if you want
to know.


>
> And it's the lack of an answer that suggests the same thing to
> me.
>

But that was answered. What part did you not understand? I


>
> An airport has an (R). What does that really tell me other than that the
> facility is located there? What can I get in terms of advisories and
> separation, and how far out, and who do I call?
>

You can't get separation, you can get traffic advisories and navigational
assistance if needed.

Are you sure you're a pilot? Most PEOPLE in western nations have a better
understanding of radar than you exhibit.

[Jeff Saylor]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

> "Jeff Saylor" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Thanks for the explanation, although I haven't found any more or
> > less radar services to be available at KACK (Nantucket, w/ the
> > R symbol) than at KMVY (Vineyard Haven) or even KPVC,
> > which was why I am curious.
> >
>
> The symbol indicates where the ASR is located, of course radar services are
> available at other airports within range. Typically 30 miles or more.

Nantucket has the only (R) in Cape Approach's coverage area. Does this mean
that the only radar antenna for Cape Approach's coverage area is at Nantucket?
I ask because there is a large radar antenna in Truro, Mass (Cape Cod). On the
sectional, it even says "radomes" as a landmark feature near Truro. Perhaps
this antenna is for Cape Approach, although I suppose it could be for Boston
Center, weather, or who-knows-what. If it is indeed a Cape Approach antenna
perhaps it would be useful to have the R on the chart.

(Boston Center can handle approaches when Cape Approach is closed, but I don't
know if they use ARTCC radar or Cape's.

> > Sounds good. I just wish they felt the same away about approach
> > control frequencies for airports such as KRDG. :)
> >
>
> In the Airport Data block there should be an ATIS frequency or a "VFR Advsy"
> frequency, (more likely ATIS). At fields with ATIS the recording should
> have the frequency for traffic advisories, at fields without ATIS the VFR
> Advsy frequency will be in the data block.

That's true, the Reading ATIS does give the approach freq. I don't see how it
would have hurt any to put Reading Approach's frequency in the listings on the
side of the chart where other approach frequencies are listed though.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Jeff Saylor" > wrote in message
...
>
> Nantucket has the only (R) in Cape Approach's coverage area.
>

Otis ANGB has an (R), and I believe that's where Cape Approach is located.


>
> Does this mean that the only radar antenna for Cape
> Approach's coverage area is at Nantucket? I ask because there
> is a large radar antenna in Truro, Mass (Cape Cod). On the
> sectional, it even says "radomes" as a landmark feature near Truro.
> Perhaps this antenna is for Cape Approach, although I suppose it
> could be for Boston Center, weather, or who-knows-what. If it
> is indeed a Cape Approach antenna perhaps it would be useful to
> have the R on the chart.
>

That's the North Truro ARSR site, and former North Truro Air Force Station.
It's used by Boston and New York ARTCCs.

[Teacherjh]

>> Where you don't find ASR you don't find ASR services.

At airports without the (R) you don't tend to not find ASR. Not if there's an
(R) at another airport nearby.

>>
Are you sure you're a pilot? Most PEOPLE in western nations have a better
understanding of radar than you exhibit.
<<

Sure I understand RADAR. Some big bloke shouts "MARCO" and the sound bounces
off the N-numbers on my plane. Those numbers travel to all the AM radio
antennas, and the one who's call sign matches the numbers reports back to the
tower. A big computer in the tower figures out my N-number from which stations
are receiving the echo, and puts that number on the wide screen TV up in the
tower, superimposed on the football game.

Whenever there's a touchdown, the tower calls ground control and reads off the
numbers on the TV screen to figure out which airplane landed. Ground control
writes these numbers down on a piece of paper and puts it on the taxiway
diagram. The paper has to be long and narrow in order to fit, which is why
they call it a strip.

If ground control puts the strip on the wrong taxiway, or the pilot takes a
wrong turn, they have to find the strip and correlate it with the N-numbers on
the plane. This is called a strip search. But there is ground radar also,
which makes it easier to find the pilot than to find the strip. Usually the
problem occurs at night at large airports, where from the height of a spam can
the taxiways look like a sea of blue lights. Pilots can taxi so long they have
been known to faint from starvation, so I've learned to bring a sandwich when I
fly into those places. This is called a blue light special.

Now, tell me if I got this right. If a pilot calls in to an area with the (R),
but he's passed that area before half an hour ago so it's not his first time,
there should be a strip on him, and the controllers do the strip search thing.
But since he left the area and came back, the strip expired and was discarded.
They hire a detective (because nobody wants an errant pilot in the skys) but
when they can't find the information, they radio the pilot saying "No strip
Sherlock".

At that point, the airplane falls out of the sky because there's no RADAR to
hold it up. The pilot looks for a field, finds one with horses, waits for the
shout of MARCO and replies POLO as he dives into the game.

Am I close?

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Teacherjh" > wrote in message
...
>
> At airports without the (R) you don't tend to not find ASR. Not if
there's an
> (R) at another airport nearby.
>

Where there's an (r) at a nearby airport you find ASR services.


>
> Sure I understand RADAR. Some big bloke shouts "MARCO" and the sound
bounces
> off the N-numbers on my plane. Those numbers travel to all the AM radio
> antennas, and the one who's call sign matches the numbers reports back to
the
> tower. A big computer in the tower figures out my N-number from which
stations
> are receiving the echo, and puts that number on the wide screen TV up in
the
> tower, superimposed on the football game.
>
> Whenever there's a touchdown, the tower calls ground control and reads off
the
> numbers on the TV screen to figure out which airplane landed. Ground
control
> writes these numbers down on a piece of paper and puts it on the taxiway
> diagram. The paper has to be long and narrow in order to fit, which is
why
> they call it a strip.
>
> If ground control puts the strip on the wrong taxiway, or the pilot takes
a
> wrong turn, they have to find the strip and correlate it with the
N-numbers on
> the plane. This is called a strip search. But there is ground radar
also,
> which makes it easier to find the pilot than to find the strip. Usually
the
> problem occurs at night at large airports, where from the height of a spam
can
> the taxiways look like a sea of blue lights. Pilots can taxi so long they
have
> been known to faint from starvation, so I've learned to bring a sandwich
when I
> fly into those places. This is called a blue light special.
>
> Now, tell me if I got this right. If a pilot calls in to an area with the
(R),
> but he's passed that area before half an hour ago so it's not his first
time,
> there should be a strip on him, and the controllers do the strip search
thing.
> But since he left the area and came back, the strip expired and was
discarded.
> They hire a detective (because nobody wants an errant pilot in the skys)
but
> when they can't find the information, they radio the pilot saying "No
strip
> Sherlock".
>
> At that point, the airplane falls out of the sky because there's no RADAR
to
> hold it up. The pilot looks for a field, finds one with horses, waits for
the
> shout of MARCO and replies POLO as he dives into the game.
>
> Am I close?
>

No.

[Teacherjh]

>>
> Am I close?

No.
<<

Dang. That cheereo box promised I'd be a pilot if I sent in my $3.00 and five
box tops.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Jeff Saylor]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

> "Jeff Saylor" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Thanks for the explanation, although I haven't found any more or
> > less radar services to be available at KACK (Nantucket, w/ the
> > R symbol) than at KMVY (Vineyard Haven) or even KPVC,
> > which was why I am curious.
> >
>
> The symbol indicates where the ASR is located, of course radar services are
> available at other airports within range. Typically 30 miles or more.

According to a NTSB report* on the TWA 800 accident, NY TRACON has 5 radars
located at JFK airport, Newark, NJ airport (EWR), Islip, NY airport (ISP), White
Plains, NY airport (HPN), and Stewart Field airport in Newburg, NY (SWF).

JFK, EWR, ISP are in Class B or C airspace. Stewart (Class D airspace) has the
R in a circle.
White Plains does not have the R in a circle symbol.

Is there any particular reason why White Plains does not have this symbol if it
has radar?

* http://www.ntsb.gov/events/TWA800/exhibits/Ex_13A.pdf

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Jeff Saylor" > wrote in message
...
>
> According to a NTSB report* on the TWA 800 accident,
> NY TRACON has 5 radars located at JFK airport, Newark,
> NJ airport (EWR), Islip, NY airport (ISP), White Plains, NY
> airport (HPN), and Stewart Field airport in Newburg, NY (SWF).
>
> JFK, EWR, ISP are in Class B or C airspace. Stewart (Class D
> airspace) has the R in a circle.
> White Plains does not have the R in a circle symbol.
>
> Is there any particular reason why White Plains does not have
> this symbol if it has radar?
>

None that I'm aware of. Perhaps it's because the HPN ASR isn't located on
the field proper. It's very close, it's just a bit south of the general
aviation parking area that's west of hangar E, between Tower and Wolfe
Lanes. But that doesn't seem like a significant distance, and the ASR at
SWF is sited similarly but does have the R.