"Where" is my destination?

[Ben Jackson]

Leaving OAK I called ground and asked for flight following to 7S3
(which I gave by name and spelled phonetically). Later, while I'm
taxiing they come back with "where is that" and I couldn't imagine
how I could help them if the identifier didn't, so I came up with
"near McMinnville", which is both a nearby airport and the name of
the FSS. There was a pause and they came back with "we would call
that 'Oregon'" and gave me a squawk.

On climbout with Norcal approach and later Oakland center my destination
came up at least once with each controller. One thought it was MMV.
One of them accepted 7S3 without argument and asked for my route of
flight, which I gave as "direct Maxwell VOR and then airways" which
started a new round of "what's the closest navaid to your destination"
and I offered to amend my destination to HIO. She explained that she
just needed to know if she should hand me off (to Travis AFB?). I think
my destination finally "stuck" then because it didn't come up again.

So, "where" IS my destination? Is there anything I could have said
that would have made it clear? Would they be confused if I just asked
for flight following to the Newberg VOR?

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

[John Harper]

Not an answer to your question, but if you were flying
over the Central Valley yesterday you were lucky to
get anything at all. There seemed to be a big radar outage,
maybe centered on Stockton, but affecting both Norcal
and Oakland. They weren't taking any VFR following.
It was very interesting listening to the carriers following
non-radar procedures. It's clear that I'm not the only one
who's a bit hazy about them!

John

"Ben Jackson" > wrote in message
news:SAbjc.42018$_L6.2563007@attbi_s53...
> Leaving OAK I called ground and asked for flight following to 7S3
> (which I gave by name and spelled phonetically). Later, while I'm
> taxiing they come back with "where is that" and I couldn't imagine
> how I could help them if the identifier didn't, so I came up with
> "near McMinnville", which is both a nearby airport and the name of
> the FSS. There was a pause and they came back with "we would call
> that 'Oregon'" and gave me a squawk.
>
> On climbout with Norcal approach and later Oakland center my destination
> came up at least once with each controller. One thought it was MMV.
> One of them accepted 7S3 without argument and asked for my route of
> flight, which I gave as "direct Maxwell VOR and then airways" which
> started a new round of "what's the closest navaid to your destination"
> and I offered to amend my destination to HIO. She explained that she
> just needed to know if she should hand me off (to Travis AFB?). I think
> my destination finally "stuck" then because it didn't come up again.
>
> So, "where" IS my destination? Is there anything I could have said
> that would have made it clear? Would they be confused if I just asked
> for flight following to the Newberg VOR?
>
> --
> Ben Jackson
> >
> http://www.ben.com/

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Ben Jackson" > wrote in message
news:SAbjc.42018$_L6.2563007@attbi_s53...
>
> Leaving OAK I called ground and asked for flight following to 7S3
> (which I gave by name and spelled phonetically). Later, while I'm
> taxiing they come back with "where is that" and I couldn't imagine
> how I could help them if the identifier didn't, so I came up with
> "near McMinnville", which is both a nearby airport and the name of
> the FSS. There was a pause and they came back with "we would call
> that 'Oregon'" and gave me a squawk.
>
> On climbout with Norcal approach and later Oakland center my destination
> came up at least once with each controller. One thought it was MMV.
> One of them accepted 7S3 without argument and asked for my route of
> flight, which I gave as "direct Maxwell VOR and then airways" which
> started a new round of "what's the closest navaid to your destination"
> and I offered to amend my destination to HIO. She explained that she
> just needed to know if she should hand me off (to Travis AFB?). I think
> my destination finally "stuck" then because it didn't come up again.
>
> So, "where" IS my destination? Is there anything I could have said
> that would have made it clear? Would they be confused if I just asked
> for flight following to the Newberg VOR?
>

Telling them your planned route would have made it clear. You say it was
"direct Maxwell VOR and then airways". That doesn't tell then a great deal.
State the airways and navaids.

[Bob Gardner]

I would be surprised if Oakland Center's host computer has 7S3 in its
memory, and wouldn't expect OAK ground control to have a clue. In your
situation I think I would have used Portland as a destination and then
changed my destination to 7S3 by name somewhere north of Eugene. Had you
filed, a lat-long for 7S3 would have eliminated the problem entirely.

Bob Gardner

"Ben Jackson" > wrote in message
news:SAbjc.42018$_L6.2563007@attbi_s53...
> Leaving OAK I called ground and asked for flight following to 7S3
> (which I gave by name and spelled phonetically). Later, while I'm
> taxiing they come back with "where is that" and I couldn't imagine
> how I could help them if the identifier didn't, so I came up with
> "near McMinnville", which is both a nearby airport and the name of
> the FSS. There was a pause and they came back with "we would call
> that 'Oregon'" and gave me a squawk.
>
> On climbout with Norcal approach and later Oakland center my destination
> came up at least once with each controller. One thought it was MMV.
> One of them accepted 7S3 without argument and asked for my route of
> flight, which I gave as "direct Maxwell VOR and then airways" which
> started a new round of "what's the closest navaid to your destination"
> and I offered to amend my destination to HIO. She explained that she
> just needed to know if she should hand me off (to Travis AFB?). I think
> my destination finally "stuck" then because it didn't come up again.
>
> So, "where" IS my destination? Is there anything I could have said
> that would have made it clear? Would they be confused if I just asked
> for flight following to the Newberg VOR?
>
> --
> Ben Jackson
> >
> http://www.ben.com/

[Judah]

I don't know the area, and I'm no expert, but I would have said, "About 7
miles south of Portland-Hillsboro in Oregon". Generally the ATCs know
towered airports out a ways, and Portland is a big enough name that even
in Oakland they would have recognized at least where to start looking.

I'm on the east coast, but generally if I'm asking for Flight Following
here in NY, and I'm crossing a state line or two, I will tell them what
state my destination is from the initial request...

That might have been why the first guy got snippy with you - he's
watching a sector in CA, and you're expecting him to know the names of
all of the teeny little airports in a 500 mile circle... And not even
telling him what state he's supposed to be looking at...

(Ben Jackson) wrote in
news:SAbjc.42018$_L6.2563007@attbi_s53:

> Leaving OAK I called ground and asked for flight following to 7S3
> (which I gave by name and spelled phonetically). Later, while I'm
> taxiing they come back with "where is that" and I couldn't imagine
> how I could help them if the identifier didn't, so I came up with
> "near McMinnville", which is both a nearby airport and the name of
> the FSS. There was a pause and they came back with "we would call
> that 'Oregon'" and gave me a squawk.
>
> On climbout with Norcal approach and later Oakland center my
> destination came up at least once with each controller. One thought it
> was MMV. One of them accepted 7S3 without argument and asked for my
> route of flight, which I gave as "direct Maxwell VOR and then airways"
> which started a new round of "what's the closest navaid to your
> destination" and I offered to amend my destination to HIO. She
> explained that she just needed to know if she should hand me off (to
> Travis AFB?). I think my destination finally "stuck" then because it
> didn't come up again.
>
> So, "where" IS my destination? Is there anything I could have said
> that would have made it clear? Would they be confused if I just asked
> for flight following to the Newberg VOR?
>

[Jay Honeck]

> I would be surprised if Oakland Center's host computer has 7S3 in its
> memory,

Given that my office PC has 7S3 stored in it (thanks to multiple flight
planning programs) it's hard to imagine anything dumber, in this day and
age.

However, when we were flying home from Sun N Fun, Tallahassee (I think)
approach didn't have "KIOW" in its little brain, so I changed our
destination to "KCID."

They didn't even have THAT airport in its memory -- Cedar Rapids, a Class C
airport with hourly airline service!

I eventually just told them "Muscle Shoals, Alabama," which satisfied them
for a while...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:ysdjc.42186$IW1.2048086@attbi_s52...
>
> Given that my office PC has 7S3 stored in it (thanks to multiple flight
> planning programs) it's hard to imagine anything dumber, in this day
> and age.
>

Remember we're talking about the FAA.


>
> However, when we were flying home from Sun N Fun, Tallahassee
> (I think) approach didn't have "KIOW" in its little brain, so I
> changed our destination to "KCID."
>
> They didn't even have THAT airport in its memory -- Cedar Rapids,
> a Class C airport with hourly airline service!
>

They probably had both in memory, but as IOW and CID. IOW and CID are H
class VORs, I'd expect every ARTCC to have every such VOR in memory.

[Newps]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:ysdjc.42186$IW1.2048086@attbi_s52...



> Given that my office PC has 7S3 stored in it (thanks to multiple flight
> planning programs) it's hard to imagine anything dumber, in this day and
> age.

Are you kidding? The entire air trafiic system is being run on a Commodore
64 with 48K of memory. Once you move across center boudaries only the
larger airports are stored.

[Newps]

"Judah" > wrote in message
...
> I don't know the area, and I'm no expert, but I would have said, "About 7
> miles south of Portland-Hillsboro in Oregon".


The real answer is to just tell Oakland you're going to "Portland direct."
They do not need to know the exact destination.

[Jim Fisher]

"Ben Jackson" > wrote in message
> So, "where" IS my destination? Is there anything I could have said
> that would have made it clear? Would they be confused if I just asked
> for flight following to the Newberg VOR?

A fix from a VOR will always work. "Bearing 15 miles on the 180 Radial of
(VOR)."

Just tell 'em to stand by while you figure it up. Doesn't have to be exact.

--
Jim Fisher

[Jay Honeck]

> A fix from a VOR will always work. "Bearing 15 miles on the 180 Radial of
> (VOR)."

What's this "VOR" thing you speak of?

:-)

I actually turned my on yesterday, just to make sure it still worked. And
we used the other one once on our way home from Sun N Fun -- to listen to an
AWOS.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Ben Jackson]

In article >,
Judah > wrote:
>That might have been why the first guy got snippy with you - he's
>watching a sector in CA

The first guy was a ground controller. I was surprised that he put it
in the system in such a way that other controllers had to ask.

Anyway, the whole point of my query was: What IS the right answer?
When he came back with the snippy "Oregon" I thought that was it. So
I tried the local FSS, the state, the nearest airport and the nearest
VOR.

I should have seen this coming when Oakland FSS's computers told them
that Scappoose was the closest airport.

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

[Bob Gardner]

I'm sure that Steve or Newps will straighten me out, but I don't think
"putting it in the system" goes any farther than calling the radar facility
on the landline and telling them that you want flight following. I don't
think anything is "filed" per se. The "right answer" is that your
destination is the biggest, busiest airport in the vicinity of your real
destination (airports requiring reservations do not fit here). Then, when
you get close enough so that the controllers recognize the names of small
towns and airports, tell them you are changing your destination. Having
found Starks on my sectional, I think I would have waited until Seattle
Center handed me off to Portland Approach.

Bob Gardner

"Ben Jackson" > wrote in message
news:PZfjc.26174$YP5.2043444@attbi_s02...
> In article >,
> Judah > wrote:
> >That might have been why the first guy got snippy with you - he's
> >watching a sector in CA
>
> The first guy was a ground controller. I was surprised that he put it
> in the system in such a way that other controllers had to ask.
>
> Anyway, the whole point of my query was: What IS the right answer?
> When he came back with the snippy "Oregon" I thought that was it. So
> I tried the local FSS, the state, the nearest airport and the nearest
> VOR.
>
> I should have seen this coming when Oakland FSS's computers told them
> that Scappoose was the closest airport.
>
> --
> Ben Jackson
> >
> http://www.ben.com/

[BTIZ]

controllers in another state, especially "local" approach control, are not
expected to know every Podunk airport more than 200 miles away..

When departing an area like that.. I just give the direction of flight
"North" and get out of there as soon as possible.

BT

"Ben Jackson" > wrote in message
news:SAbjc.42018$_L6.2563007@attbi_s53...
> Leaving OAK I called ground and asked for flight following to 7S3
> (which I gave by name and spelled phonetically). Later, while I'm
> taxiing they come back with "where is that" and I couldn't imagine
> how I could help them if the identifier didn't, so I came up with
> "near McMinnville", which is both a nearby airport and the name of
> the FSS. There was a pause and they came back with "we would call
> that 'Oregon'" and gave me a squawk.
>
> On climbout with Norcal approach and later Oakland center my destination
> came up at least once with each controller. One thought it was MMV.
> One of them accepted 7S3 without argument and asked for my route of
> flight, which I gave as "direct Maxwell VOR and then airways" which
> started a new round of "what's the closest navaid to your destination"
> and I offered to amend my destination to HIO. She explained that she
> just needed to know if she should hand me off (to Travis AFB?). I think
> my destination finally "stuck" then because it didn't come up again.
>
> So, "where" IS my destination? Is there anything I could have said
> that would have made it clear? Would they be confused if I just asked
> for flight following to the Newberg VOR?
>
> --
> Ben Jackson
> >
> http://www.ben.com/

[Rob Perkins]

"Newps" > wrote:

>Are you kidding? The entire air trafiic system is being run on a Commodore
>64 with 48K of memory.

I gotta say, that's a neat trick finding one of those with 48K memory.
:-)

Rob

[Peter Duniho]

"Rob Perkins" > wrote in message
...
> >Are you kidding? The entire air trafiic system is being run on a
Commodore
> >64 with 48K of memory.
>
> I gotta say, that's a neat trick finding one of those with 48K memory.
> :-)

Well, all the C64's are getting old. He's probably talking about one that's
suffering from Alzheimers or something. :)

Or maybe that was his whole point. Not only is the FAA using C64's, they've
removed 16K of the RAM as a cost-cutting measure. :)

Pete

[Ben Jackson]

In article <vagjc.26334$cF6.1147161@attbi_s04>,
Bob Gardner > wrote:
>you get close enough so that the controllers recognize the names of small
>towns and airports, tell them you are changing your destination. Having
>found Starks on my sectional, I think I would have waited until Seattle
>Center handed me off to Portland Approach.

I did offer to switch destinations to a major airport but next time I will
probably start there.

I'd switch as soon as Oakland handed me off to Seattle. Any closer and
you'll start a new round of questions asking why you're way off course.
I didn't even talk to Portland Approach on Sunday, they just cut me loose
at about the time they would have handed me off.

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

[Bob Fry]

"Jay Honeck" > writes:

> > I would be surprised if Oakland Center's host computer has 7S3 in its
> > memory,
>
> Given that my office PC has 7S3 stored in it (thanks to multiple flight
> planning programs) it's hard to imagine anything dumber, in this day and
> age.

Hey...aviation GPSs have all airports and navaids in North America
stored in a handheld unit! It's amazing the antique equipment used by
the FAA.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:ysdjc.42186$IW1.2048086@attbi_s52...
>
>
>
> > Given that my office PC has 7S3 stored in it (thanks to multiple flight
> > planning programs) it's hard to imagine anything dumber, in this day and
> > age.
>
> Are you kidding? The entire air trafiic system is being run on a
Commodore
> 64 with 48K of memory. Once you move across center boudaries only the
> larger airports are stored.

A Commodore? I thought they kept it all on Rolodex cards.

[Snowbird]

(Ben Jackson) wrote in message news:<SAbjc.42018$_L6.2563007@attbi_s53>...
> Leaving OAK I called ground and asked for flight following to 7S3
> (which I gave by name and spelled phonetically). Later, while I'm
> taxiing they come back with "where is that" and I couldn't imagine
> how I could help them if the identifier didn't, so I came up with
> "near McMinnville", which is both a nearby airport <...>
> So, "where" IS my destination? Is there anything I could have said
> that would have made it clear? Would they be confused if I just asked
> for flight following to the Newberg VOR?

Ben,

This is a perennial problem. Believe it or not, I have every airport
in the US in my obsolete, limited-memory Palm VIIX but major TRACONS
and ARTCCs don't even have some pretty major airports outside their
airspace in their database. What's Wrong With This Picture?

If you can find an H-class VOR which is near your destination and
either give it as your destination or give your airport as degree-
distance to that VOR, it seems to work pretty well...though we were
once asked for a VOR *within* the airspace of the ARTCC.

Best,
Sydney

[Snowbird]

"Jim Fisher" > wrote in message >...
> "Ben Jackson" > wrote in message
> > So, "where" IS my destination? Is there anything I could have said
> > that would have made it clear? Would they be confused if I just asked
> > for flight following to the Newberg VOR?

> A fix from a VOR will always work. "Bearing 15 miles on the 180 Radial of
> (VOR)."

Well, almost always *g*. If you're going a distance, it's better to have
an H-class VOR, and even there we struck out once :)

But that was Boston, 'nuff said :)

Sydney

[Newps]

"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
news:vagjc.26334$cF6.1147161@attbi_s04...

> I'm sure that Newps will straighten me out, but I don't think
> "putting it in the system" goes any farther than calling the radar
facility
> on the landline and telling them that you want flight following. I don't
> think anything is "filed" per se.

That's one way, especially when you spring it on me that you want flight
following about 20 miles after departure. If you tell me when you are still
on the ground then it gets typed into the computer so a center transponder
code gets assigned. That way it can be handed off to the center
automatically.

[Newps]

"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:B%gjc.90$k24.88@fed1read01...
> controllers in another state, especially "local" approach control, are not
> expected to know every Podunk airport more than 200 miles away..
>

I would expect at least 200 miles from an approach controller, maybe a
little less from big city approach controllers. I have heard of and know
roughly where every airport is within about 5-600 miles from here.

[Rob Perkins]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote:

>Or maybe that was his whole point. Not only is the FAA using C64's, they've
>removed 16K of the RAM as a cost-cutting measure. :)

And as a measure to save on the cost of porting software, I'm sure
they'll make arrangments to run C-64 emulators on P4-hyperthreading
PC's for every Center. And because it's government work, all the
emulators together, combined with the cost of the PC's, will cost more
than it would to resurrect MOSTEK to tool up and make enough C-64's.

:-D

Rob

[gatt]

"Ben Jackson" > wrote in message news:PZfjc.26174

> I should have seen this coming when Oakland FSS's computers told them
> that Scappoose was the closest airport.

Yeah...tell 'em your headed for old Scappoose International. When you were
airborne you could have requested a frequency change to Scappoose Center.

I got a free IFR lesson to Scappoose last week because my instructor had to
pay her bill at the Barnstormer Bed and Breakfast. We flew out there and
she ran off to pay her bill while I watched gyrocopter folks test flying
their new birds. Not exactly a major airfield.

-c

[Don Tuite]

On Tue, 27 Apr 2004 11:24:00 -0700, "gatt"
> wrote:

>
>"Ben Jackson" > wrote in message news:PZfjc.26174
>
>> I should have seen this coming when Oakland FSS's computers told them
>> that Scappoose was the closest airport.
>
>Yeah...tell 'em your headed for old Scappoose International. When you were
>airborne you could have requested a frequency change to Scappoose Center.
>
>I got a free IFR lesson to Scappoose last week because my instructor had to
>pay her bill at the Barnstormer Bed and Breakfast. We flew out there and
>she ran off to pay her bill while I watched gyrocopter folks test flying
>their new birds. Not exactly a major airfield.

Compared to Twin Oaks, which is the field that started this
discussion? Sometimes I couldn't find Twin Oaks when I had a plane
based there.

Don

[Ben Jackson]

In article >,
Don Tuite > wrote:
>>"Ben Jackson" > wrote in message news:PZfjc.26174
>>
>>> I should have seen this coming when Oakland FSS's computers told them
>>> that Scappoose was the closest airport.
>
>Compared to Twin Oaks, which is the field that started this
>discussion? Sometimes I couldn't find Twin Oaks when I had a plane
>based there.

I always find it, it's just that sometimes as I get closer I find it
again and make a course correction. :)

But for the briefing with FSS I had to ask for HIO weather rather
than Scappoose weather. HIO is a lot bigger than SPB.

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

[Rob Perkins]

"gatt" > wrote:

>I got a free IFR lesson to Scappoose last week because my instructor had to
>pay her bill at the Barnstormer Bed and Breakfast. We flew out there and
>she ran off to pay her bill while I watched gyrocopter folks test flying
>their new birds. Not exactly a major airfield.

It was the "big" airport I practiced at all through my training. Nice
crosswinds, bumpy climbout. Only Woodland and Evergreen were bumpier
in the area.

Scappoose has a restaurant on field?

Rob

[Ash Wyllie]

Ben Jackson opined


>So, "where" IS my destination? Is there anything I could have said
>that would have made it clear? Would they be confused if I just asked
>for flight following to the Newberg VOR?

I get the same thing when leaving CHO. I tell Potomac Approach that I am going
to LCI. I get a lot of "wheres that?". If I tell them MHT all is well. I
assume that either different parts of the FAA don't talk to each other or '60s
can't store all those out of region identifiers.


-ash
Cthulhu for President!
Why vote for a lesser evil?

[gatt]

"Ben Jackson" > wrote in message news:uEzjc.53073

> But for the briefing with FSS I had to ask for HIO weather rather
> than Scappoose weather. HIO is a lot bigger than SPB.

The could theoretically be a problem because Scappoose is very close to the
Columbia River and the temperature and wind can be quite a bit different
than at HIO, which has the range of hills separating it from the river and
the winds coming off the Gorge.

Generally the same visibility conditions, usually.

-c

[gatt]

"Rob Perkins" > wrote in message

> Scappoose has a restaurant on field?

Not on field, but really close. You have to park at the north end, walk
over the dirtpiles and construction, skirt around the RV park and cross the
road. Kinda screwy. It's a -really- nice bed and breakfast unless the
farmers are spraying fertilizer and/or the smell of the papermill is blowing
toward it.

Five minute walk, max. It's northwest of the airfield. There's a sign that
says "THIS WAY TO THE BARNSTORMER" leaning against the RV park fence, but
the sign doesn't exactly tell you which way.

-gattman
Portland, OR

[Peter R.]

Tom Sixkiller ) wrote:

> "Newps" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> > news:ysdjc.42186$IW1.2048086@attbi_s52...
> >
> >
> >
> > > Given that my office PC has 7S3 stored in it (thanks to multiple flight
> > > planning programs) it's hard to imagine anything dumber, in this day and
> > > age.
> >
> > Are you kidding? The entire air trafiic system is being run on a
> Commodore
> > 64 with 48K of memory. Once you move across center boudaries only the
> > larger airports are stored.
>
> A Commodore? I thought they kept it all on Rolodex cards.

Come on! Everyone knows that the Rolodex system is an expandable storage
device. ;)



--
Peter

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Snowbird" > wrote in message
om...
>
> This is a perennial problem. Believe it or not, I have every
> airport in the US in my obsolete, limited-memory Palm VIIX
> but major TRACONS and ARTCCs don't even have some
> pretty major airports outside their airspace in their database.
>

TRACONs don't have databases separate from ARTCCs. All flight data
processing is done by computers in ARTCCs which terminal facilities access.