Overlapping class C & D

[Andrew Sarangan]

The Dayton Class C airspace sits right next to the Wright-Patterson AFB
Class D airspace. A vector for the ILS approach often takes us over or
through the class D airspace. If we are VFR, I always verify with the
approach controller if we are ok to enter the class D. I have received
mixed answers to this query. Sometimes the controller will thank me for
asking and confirm that the class D controller is aware of us. Sometimes he
will change the vector upon my query. Sometimes the controller has told me
that I am ok to enter the class D airspace as long as I am talking to him.
One controller was even annoyed that I asked him, and proceed to say that I
was ok to transition the class D. What is the normal procedure in
situations like this?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message
58...
>
> The Dayton Class C airspace sits right next to the Wright-Patterson
> AFB Class D airspace. A vector for the ILS approach often takes
> us over or through the class D airspace. If we are VFR, I always
> verify with the approach controller if we are ok to enter the class
> D. I have received mixed answers to this query. Sometimes the
> controller will thank me for asking and confirm that the class D
> controller is aware of us. Sometimes he will change the vector
> upon my query. Sometimes the controller has told me that I am
> ok to enter the class D airspace as long as I am talking to him.
> One controller was even annoyed that I asked him, and proceed
> to say that I was ok to transition the class D. What is the normal
> procedure in situations like this?
>

IFR or VFR, the approach controller is required to coordinate the transition
of Class D airspace with the tower controller.


FAA Order 7110.65P Air Traffic Control

Chapter 2. General Control

Section 1. General

2-1-16. SURFACE AREAS

a. Coordinate with the appropriate nonapproach control tower on an
individual aircraft basis before issuing a clearance which would require
flight within a surface area for which the tower has responsibility unless
otherwise specified in a letter of agreement.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7210.3, Letters of Agreement, Para 4-3-1.
14 CFR Section 91.127, Operating on or in the Vicinity of an Airport in
Class E Airspace.
P/CG Term- Surface Area.

b. Coordinate with the appropriate control tower for transit authorization
when you are providing radar traffic advisory service to an aircraft that
will enter another facility's airspace.

NOTE-
The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each
area when in contact with a radar facility.

c. Transfer communications to the appropriate facility, if required, prior
to operation within a surface area for which the tower has responsibility.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Radio Communications Transfer, Para 2-1-17.
FAAO 7110.65, Surface Area Restrictions, Para 3-1-11.
FAAO 7110.65, Application, Para 7-6-1.
14 CFR Section 91.129, Operations in Class D Airspace.

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Andrew Sarangan > said:
>The Dayton Class C airspace sits right next to the Wright-Patterson AFB
>Class D airspace. A vector for the ILS approach often takes us over or
>through the class D airspace. If we are VFR, I always verify with the

Often in a case like this there will be a LOA (Letter of Agreement)
between the facilities that allows the approach controllers to use some of
the class D airspace without asking.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
....I'm not one of those who think Bill Gates is the devil. I simply
suspect that if Microsoft ever met up with the devil, it wouldn't need an
interpreter. -- Nick Petreley

[EDR]

In article >, Andrew
Sarangan > wrote:

> The Dayton Class C airspace sits right next to the Wright-Patterson AFB
> Class D airspace. A vector for the ILS approach often takes us over or
> through the class D airspace. If we are VFR, I always verify with the
> approach controller if we are ok to enter the class D. I have received
> mixed answers to this query. Sometimes the controller will thank me for
> asking and confirm that the class D controller is aware of us. Sometimes he
> will change the vector upon my query. Sometimes the controller has told me
> that I am ok to enter the class D airspace as long as I am talking to him.
> One controller was even annoyed that I asked him, and proceed to say that I
> was ok to transition the class D. What is the normal procedure in
> situations like this?

As Paul said, there is a Letter of Agreement.
The Columbus OH airspace has three CDAS beneath the KCMH CCAS.
There is a LOA between Columbus and each of the three satellites that
reduces the CDAS from 4000 AGL to 2500 AGL, giving the CCAS Approach
control the airspace 2500 and above.
(Note that 2500 AGL is the floor of the CCAS surrounding Columbus.)

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"EDR" > wrote in message
...
>
> As Paul said, there is a Letter of Agreement.
> The Columbus OH airspace has three CDAS beneath the
> KCMH CCAS. There is a LOA between Columbus and
> each of the three satellites that reduces the CDAS from 4000
> AGL to 2500 AGL, giving the CCAS Approach control the
> airspace 2500 and above. (Note that 2500 AGL is the floor
> of the CCAS surrounding Columbus.)
>

The standard for Class D airspace is 2500' AGL. The standard for the ten
mile ring of Class C airspace is 1200' to 4000' AGL. The OSU and TZR Class
D airspace areas use the standard, the LCK Class D airspace ceiling is 2300'
AGL. The CMH ten mile Class C ring is 1700' to 4000' AGL.

[John Galban]

Andrew Sarangan > wrote in message >...
> The Dayton Class C airspace sits right next to the Wright-Patterson AFB
> Class D airspace. A vector for the ILS approach often takes us over or
> through the class D airspace. If we are VFR, I always verify with the
> approach controller if we are ok to enter the class D. I have received
> mixed answers to this query. Sometimes the controller will thank me for
> asking and confirm that the class D controller is aware of us. Sometimes he
> will change the vector upon my query. Sometimes the controller has told me
> that I am ok to enter the class D airspace as long as I am talking to him.
> One controller was even annoyed that I asked him, and proceed to say that I
> was ok to transition the class D. What is the normal procedure in
> situations like this?

The controller is required to arrange your transition through the
class D airspace. I'm sure Steven McNicholl will post the relavent
passage of the controllers handbook if required :-)

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Teacherjh]

>>
I'm sure Steven McNicholl will post the relavent
passage of the controllers handbook if required :-)
<<

Nah. He'll post the fact that it's in there. :)

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[EDR]

In article et>,
Steven P. McNicoll > wrote:

> "EDR" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > As Paul said, there is a Letter of Agreement.
> > The Columbus OH airspace has three CDAS beneath the
> > KCMH CCAS. There is a LOA between Columbus and
> > each of the three satellites that reduces the CDAS from 4000
> > AGL to 2500 AGL, giving the CCAS Approach control the
> > airspace 2500 and above. (Note that 2500 AGL is the floor
> > of the CCAS surrounding Columbus.)
> >
>
> The standard for Class D airspace is 2500' AGL. The standard for the ten
> mile ring of Class C airspace is 1200' to 4000' AGL. The OSU and TZR Class
> D airspace areas use the standard, the LCK Class D airspace ceiling is 2300'
> AGL. The CMH ten mile Class C ring is 1700' to 4000' AGL.

OOPS!!!
That should have been MSL in posting.
I knew that, I was the one that petitioned to make it uniform back in
the early 1990's.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"EDR" > wrote in message
...
>
> OOPS!!!
> That should have been MSL in posting.
>

Ehh? With field elevations ranging from 744' to 906', substituting MSL for
AGL doesn't make a better fit.

[EDR]

In article et>,
Steven P. McNicoll > wrote:

> "EDR" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > OOPS!!!
> > That should have been MSL in posting.
> >
>
> Ehh? With field elevations ranging from 744' to 906', substituting MSL for
> AGL doesn't make a better fit.

Most certainly does!
CCAS floor is 2500 MSL and the ceiling is 4800 MSL.
CCAS tops out 4000 AGL/4800 MSL referenced KCMH.
One of the unforeseen concequences of my petition to raise the floor on
the west side of the CCAS was to allow the ILS 10L G/S to descend
through the 5/10 mile floor and reenter the the 5 mile cylinder.
This came to light during an OSU home football game.
An America West pilot filed a near miss report with a banner tow
aircraft. It wasn't all that close.
After granting the petition and raising the floor on the west side 300
feet, the FSDO gave the banner tow waivers the addition airspace.
They changed the waivers and reduced the ceiling for the banner tow
aircraft after the near miss report.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"EDR" > wrote in message
...
> In article et>,
> Steven P. McNicoll > wrote:
>
> > "EDR" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > OOPS!!!
> > > That should have been MSL in posting.
> > >
> >
> > Ehh? With field elevations ranging from 744' to 906',
> > substituting MSL for AGL doesn't make a better fit.
>
>
> Most certainly does!
> CCAS floor is 2500 MSL and the ceiling is 4800 MSL.
> CCAS tops out 4000 AGL/4800 MSL referenced KCMH.
>

You wrote:

"The Columbus OH airspace has three CDAS beneath the KCMH CCAS. There is a
LOA between Columbus and each of the three satellites that reduces the CDAS
from 4000 AGL to 2500 AGL, giving the CCAS Approach control the airspace
2500 and above.
(Note that 2500 AGL is the floor of the CCAS surrounding Columbus.)"

Substituting MSL for AGL it would be:

"The Columbus OH airspace has three CDAS beneath the KCMH CCAS. There is a
LOA between Columbus and each of the three satellites that reduces the CDAS
from 4000 MSL to 2500 MSL, giving the CCAS Approach control the airspace
2500 and above.
(Note that 2500 MSL is the floor of the CCAS surrounding Columbus.)"

But none of the Class D airspace is reduced from 4000 MSL to 2500 MSL. The
standard for Class D airspace is 2500' AGL. OSU has a field elevation of
905 MSL and Class D airspace there tops out at 3400 MSL, at the standard
2500 AGL. TZR also has a field elevation of 905 feet and Class D airspace
there also tops out at 3400 MSL, again at the standard 2500 AGL. LCK has a
field elevation of 744 feet and Class D airspace there tops out at 3000 MSL,
a nonstandard 2300 AGL. AGL or MSL, what you wrote is incorrect.


>
> One of the unforeseen concequences of my petition to raise the floor on
> the west side of the CCAS was to allow the ILS 10L G/S to descend
> through the 5/10 mile floor and reenter the the 5 mile cylinder.
> This came to light during an OSU home football game.
> An America West pilot filed a near miss report with a banner tow
> aircraft. It wasn't all that close.
> After granting the petition and raising the floor on the west side 300
> feet, the FSDO gave the banner tow waivers the addition airspace.
> They changed the waivers and reduced the ceiling for the banner tow
> aircraft after the near miss report.
>

What was the purpose of raising the Class C floor on the west side? Just to
give aircraft there more room to operate without contacting approach?

[EDR]

> What was the purpose of raising the Class C floor on the west side? Just to
> give aircraft there more room to operate without contacting approach?

To make it uniform.
The original floor of the CCAS was 2500 MSL on the east (010-130) and
2200 MSL for the remainder.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"EDR" > wrote in message
...
> > What was the purpose of raising the Class C floor on the west side?
Just to
> > give aircraft there more room to operate without contacting approach?
>
> To make it uniform.
> The original floor of the CCAS was 2500 MSL on the east
> (010-130) and 2200 MSL for the remainder.
>

There must be more to it than that. Lowering the east side to 2200 MSL
would have made it uniform and closer to the Class C standard of 1200 AGL.
Raising the west side moves further away from the standard. Why was the ten
mile ring made nonstandard to begin with?

[EDR]

In article et>,
Steven P. McNicoll > wrote:

> "EDR" > wrote in message
> ...
> > > What was the purpose of raising the Class C floor on the west side?
> Just to
> > > give aircraft there more room to operate without contacting approach?
> >
> > To make it uniform.
> > The original floor of the CCAS was 2500 MSL on the east
> > (010-130) and 2200 MSL for the remainder.
>
> There must be more to it than that. Lowering the east side to 2200 MSL
> would have made it uniform and closer to the Class C standard of 1200 AGL.
> Raising the west side moves further away from the standard. Why was the ten
> mile ring made nonstandard to begin with?

Higher terrain.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"EDR" > wrote in message
...
>
> Higher terrain.
>

No, that's not it.