A320 doing S-turns at LAS

[Gerald Sylvester]

A few weeks ago I was in Las Vegas. My company has its offices
just down the street from one of the runways. Since I had a 3
week hiatus from working on my IFR ticket, I was drooling everytime
I saw a plane land.

One time I was about 1/4" before the threshold at a red light. One
plane passed by and then i noticed another plane probably 2 miles
behind that. I thought, "Hmm, that is really close. I'm surprised
he isn't being bounced around from the wake turbulence or they
snuck in a light aircraft in between the big metal." As
I'm thinking this, I see the plane break away to the left and I
figured he was going missed. I then recognize it as a Jet Blue
A320. I then see it turning back onto the localizer, then another
S turn, back onto the localizer for landing. This plane was on
short short, REAL short final for a jet. The plane couldn't have
been more than 1000 feet in the air and a mile and a half and
15 seconds from landing. yes, it was that close.

I never ever expected to see a Part 121 doing S-turns on final
on an ILS approach (in VMC). I spoke to my friend, an A320 driver
for UA and he said it is perfectly legal but not exactly something
you want to do. he's never done it. I can't imagine what the
passengers must have been thinking.

Gerald Sylvester
PPL 12/17/03

[A Guy Called Tyketto]

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What happeened with this incident (I was there at the viewing
area, listening to tower), was that there wasn't enough space between
him and the traffic in front of him. The traffic ahead was a good 40kts
slower, and to prevent a go-around, Tower approved S-turns to the
south. This is rather common to see happen when there is a spacing
issue, as I've seen VIR44 (744, EGKK-KLAS) do it behind traffic. As
long as they're not on short final ( < 4nm ) they're fine.

BL.
- --
Brad Littlejohn | Email:
Unix Systems Administrator, |
Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! :) | http://www.sbcglobal.net/~tyketto
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[John Gaquin]

"Gerald Sylvester" > wrote in message
news:BMklc.3967
>
> A few weeks ago I was in Las Vegas.....

Unusual, but not unheard of. I've had to do it once, some years ago in a
727.


>....This plane was on
> short short, REAL short final for a jet. The plane couldn't have
> been more than 1000 feet in the air and a mile and a half and
> 15 seconds from landing. yes, it was that close.

I know that's just a quick estimate, but generally those numbers don't mesh
with an ILS profile, so I'm guessing the plane was farther out and higher
than it appeared (but I've been wrong before...). Observing big airplanes
from the ground can lead to lots of illusions. :-)

[Gerald Sylvester]

> >....This plane was on
>>short short, REAL short final for a jet. The plane couldn't have
>>been more than 1000 feet in the air and a mile and a half and
>>15 seconds from landing. yes, it was that close.
>
> I know that's just a quick estimate, but generally those numbers don't mesh
> with an ILS profile, so I'm guessing the plane was farther out and higher
> than it appeared (but I've been wrong before...). Observing big airplanes
> from the ground can lead to lots of illusions. :-)

Maybe it was a little further out than that but I was stopped at a red
light (no, not the PAPI :) i was driving a car) and I stopped the whole
time. So we are talking 1 minute for the plane to do 2 S-turns and pass
by me. That is that the most so we're talking at the most 3-4 miles out.

the other person wrote:
>What happeened with this incident (I was there at the viewing
>area, listening to tower), was that there wasn't enough space between
>him and the traffic in front of him. The traffic ahead was a good 40kts
>slower, and to prevent a go-around, Tower approved S-turns to the
>south. This is rather common to see happen when there is a spacing
>issue, as I've seen VIR44 (744, EGKK-KLAS) do it behind traffic. As
>long as they're not on short final ( < 4nm ) they're fine.

This guy got back onto the localizer no less than 1 mile away. that is
simply fact, yes, I am that positive of that as he passed by me
at maybe 300 feet AGL 1/2 mile or so from the threshold.

anyway, this plane was DAMN close. S-turns out at 10 miles, yea no
problem. S-turns that close scared the hell out of me. A coworker
who saw it too. Knowing I was a pilot he asked me about it. That's
how close it was.

Anyway, the first time I saw something like that.

Gerald

[Peter Clark]

On Tue, 04 May 2004 06:18:43 GMT, Gerald Sylvester
> wrote:


>Anyway, the first time I saw something like that.

I was a pax in a 757 approaching 25L and we did S-turns on final at
KLAS too. Saw a Southwest 37 get turned inside us coming from the
south. Can't think of any other jet flight that I've been on which
did S-turns.

P

[Capt.Doug]

>"Gerald Sylvester" wrote in message> S-turns out at 10 miles, yea no
> problem. S-turns that close scared the hell out of me.

Why does the size of the plane make any difference?
S-turns are s-turns are s-turns.
No need to over-react.

D.

[Gerald Sylvester]

Capt.Doug wrote:
>>"Gerald Sylvester" wrote in message> S-turns out at 10 miles, yea no
>>problem. S-turns that close scared the hell out of me.
>
>
> Why does the size of the plane make any difference?
> S-turns are s-turns are s-turns.
> No need to over-react.

It isn't necessarily the size of the plane but 1, I didn't
expect to see it especially since the plane was IFR (commercial
jet) and ATC is responsible for spacing (why were they so close
to begin with?), 2, the plane was on very
short final where the 200 foot (?) wingspan was a good percentage
of the entire altitude (AGL), 3, passengers must have freaked a little
when they are looking out the side of the plane *straight down*
(perspective at least since their only reference is houses 800
feet away), 4, the speed of the airplane not allowing a stabilized
approach. Surprised yes. Freaked, no.

BTW, I've put my time in on (not piloting) commericial aircraft.
400+ legs in the past 5 years and I never experienced anything like
that. In fact, the number of total go-arounds was 1 (aircraft in
front of us didn't exit the runway quick enough). So anything
other than a normal landing seems to be quite odd for commercial
traffic.

Gerald

[Capt.Doug]

>"Gerald Sylvester"wrote in message > I didn't
> expect to see it especially since the plane was IFR (commercial
> jet) and ATC is responsible for spacing (why were they so close
> to begin with?),

When a pilot accepts a visual approach and states that he has the traffic to
follow in sight, who is responsible for spacing? This is an every day thing.
Occasionally, the lead plane will slow down much more than expected after
crossing the outer marker (approximately 5 miles out). When this happens,
the following plane will have to adjust as neccessary. For example, If I'm
following a 19 seat commuter turboprop into LGA, I expect that plane to keep
it's speed up until very short final. I can routinely trail it with as
little as 2 miles of seperation. IHowever, if a new-hire first officer is
flying the commuter plane, and I find myself closing on it because it slowed
down sooner than usual, then I have to adjust using the tools that I have.
S-turns are one of those tools.

>2, the plane was on very
> short final where the 200 foot (?) wingspan was a good percentage
> of the entire altitude (AGL),

Closer to 108 feet. Optical illusions perhaps?

> 3, passengers must have freaked a little
> when they are looking out the side of the plane *straight down*

Not really. Have you ever rode the River Visual into Washington National?
How about the Lagoon Visual into San Juan and then switched runways on short
final? These are standard manuevers which involve bank angles near the
ground. In 25 years, not one single person has ever questioned it.

Additionally, the A-320 is a fly-by-wire airplane. The bank angles are
limited by the flight computers.

> 4, the speed of the airplane not allowing a stabilized
> approach. Surprised yes. Freaked, no.

A stabilized approach includes proper airspeed control. S-turns don't
neccessarily change the airspeed.

> BTW, I've put my time in on (not piloting) commericial aircraft.
> 400+ legs in the past 5 years and I never experienced anything like
> that. In fact, the number of total go-arounds was 1 (aircraft in
> front of us didn't exit the runway quick enough). So anything
> other than a normal landing seems to be quite odd for commercial
> traffic.

A frequent flyer! I like that.
You are quite right that s-turns are not the norm. However they are an
acceptable tool for pilots, even if the plane is a jet transport. Please
continue to bring your aviation questions to this group. It is important
that we explain the hows and whys so that no one is surprised.

D.