What's your favorite youtube speedpass?

[Andrew Brayer]

here's mine:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2S7T81LbvIs

[Andrew Brayer]

and another great one!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2GVtGdsXrM

[kirk.stant]

On Thursday, January 23, 2014 7:08:19 AM UTC-6, Andrew Brayer wrote:
> here's mine:
>
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2S7T81LbvIs

Nice pass!

A question for all you aero majors out there: when pulling up at high speed, should you lead with the flaps, or follow with them?

In this vid, pilot pulls, then lowers flaps after speed has dropped. My understanding is that it is more efficient to lower flaps (from cruise to zero, then positive as you slow) during the pull, and my experience somewhat bears that out (higher alt gain with a good pull and simultaneous flaps).

I know that is what happens when you pull on the stick in an F-16! (Well, actually, the leading edge comes down, but you know what I mean...).

And don't you just love guys who park their glider on the approach end before being ready to launch?

Cheers,

Kirk
66

[[email protected]]

My second favorite: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZIYmHnK_r8

MY FAVORITE: https://vimeo.com/31524242

:-)

[Tom Gardner[_2_]]

On 23/01/14 13:08, Andrew Brayer wrote:
> here's mine:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2S7T81LbvIs
>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqlGip0ff7s

[Andrew Brayer]

On Thursday, January 23, 2014 9:52:53 AM UTC-5, Tom Gardner wrote:
> On 23/01/14 13:08, Andrew Brayer wrote:
>
> > here's mine:
>
> >
>
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2S7T81LbvIs
>
> >
>
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>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqlGip0ff7s

yeahhhhhh. that one is pretty good... like really good.

[Evan Ludeman[_4_]]

On Thursday, January 23, 2014 9:18:36 AM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:

>
> A question for all you aero majors out there: when pulling up at high speed, should you lead with the flaps, or follow with them?
>


I've run #s for my ASW-20B at full gross weight, 90 KIAS (cruising at Hobbs, on a nice day :-)).

It says if you pull the stick in #1 flap, you can pull about 2g maximum before onset of separation. If you lead with the flap, you can get to 3g. Considering that the first G is committed to opposing gravity, this is a 2x difference in vertical acceleration, really huge. Sadly, I did not have this figured out when I was at Hobbs last Summer and it caused me a great deal of frustration. Here in the East, we never have to make big pulls like that, so I generally just pull (gently) with the stick.

When hooning around close to the ground or anything else you don't want to hit, I'd suggest leaving the flap handle alone.

Evan Ludeman / T8

[Andrew Brayer]

nice long low one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1sta1GMQxM

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

On 1/23/2014 7:18 AM, kirk.stant wrote (w. some snippage):

>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2S7T81LbvIs
>
> Nice pass!
>
> A question for all you aero majors out there: when pulling up at high
> speed, should you lead with the flaps, or follow with them?
>
> In this vid, pilot pulls, then lowers flaps after speed has dropped. My
> understanding is that it is more efficient to lower flaps (from cruise to
> zero, then positive as you slow) during the pull, and my experience
> somewhat bears that out (higher alt gain with a good pull and simultaneous
> flaps).
>

Neither lead nor follow?

Here's an attempt at one of those potentially worthless - in the sense that
for all practical purposes it can be neither effectively measured nor
implemented in real time - responses that might just shed some theoretical
light upon one's flying techniques...

If we - for the purposes of a pullup - define "efficiency" as "least
aerodynamic drag possible per time instant" (since both drag and gravity
oppose the ship's ability to trade kinetic energy for height) then the answer
to the question obviously (!) is the flaps should be placed in whatever
position minimizes aerodynamic drag for that instant's speed...think polar.

Complicating factors almost certainly include time and flap position, since
for any given (ever-increasing) amount of flap deflection (below the
separation angle of attack) the wing section can generate greater total lift,
which for a fixed-weight condition will be proportional to "wing developable
G." So, will a shorter time at high G (and drag) - meaning a shorter time to
change pitch angle from (say) "descending through pitched up" - result in
greater speed at the start of the ascent than a "theoretically most
aerodynamically efficient (longer-in-time) configuration" through the same
angular change?

I don't know, but my suspicion is aerodynamic efficiency would trump. In any
event, if we take "the rapid pitch-up" scenario to an extreme, various
fighters can demonstrate that a rapid pitch-up is a great way to bleed energy
and speed (think "the cobra maneuver").

As foe Joe Glider Pilot, this is a great example of one (ideally, many)
test(s) being worth ten thousand considered opinions! Kids, don't do this test
in the pattern...

Bob - it's still winter... - W.

[CLewis95]

Me in my Genesis 2 - Water Dump
http://youtu.be/ZQWhEjwRIMk

[Steve Leonard[_2_]]

On Thursday, January 23, 2014 8:18:36 AM UTC-6, kirk.stant wrote:
> A question for all you aero majors out there: when pulling up at high speed, should you lead with the flaps, or follow with them?

Flaps are to follow lift coefficient. As lift coefficient goes up, flaps go down. For absolute lowest drag, flaps should go down as you pull, then go back up once you are on the climbing path. A bit more negative than they would be at the current speed, as you are at less than 1 g. As you round off on the top, flaps go to the 1 g position for your current airspeed. Similarly, as you push over to leave, flaps should go negative, as you are lower lift coefficient. Set them to match speed as you reach your desired cruise.

Watch Champions of the Wave. I think it is cockpit video of Uli Schwenk in his 22. Watch his hand and the flaps as he pushes and pulls.

As to lead or follow, it has been shown that you can control pitch with flaps. But, it is also known that the elevator is a much better way to control pitch. I say, use the elevator, follow as close as you like with the flaps. For me, I don't pull hard enough to warrant pulling the flaps down in a pull. My hand is on the handle, and as I slow down, the flaps move from full negative to where I want them when I round out on top.

Steve
ZS

[Andrew Brayer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIdX6CU7L_0&list=PL0DC403FD6B13DC13

^ if you don't watch any of the others, you have to catch this one.

[Tony[_5_]]

not on YouTube but my favorite low level gliding clips are pretty much all contained in the short film "Dawn Flight"

[[email protected]]

Gary says:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKhnU-6GEgg

[Jim - 77]

On Thursday, January 23, 2014 8:08:19 AM UTC-5, Andrew Brayer wrote:
> here's mine:
>
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2S7T81LbvIs

I had a couple I liked so posted them and here is the best:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TZD0AA3gaw&feature=c4-overview&list=UUqzrJ4GGSxbuIxYL5n-wFgw

Us folks on the ground loved the show.

Jim

[[email protected]]

> Here in the East, we never have to make big pulls like that, so I generally just pull (gently) with the stick.

Something like this, Evan?
http://is.gd/AgmWBr

[Echo]

I've found that shadow adds a great low pass effect for the video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fgzm1If1x9c

Old bird can still get it :)

E

[LOV2AV8]

1981 Zuni II.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wb6vcIGiSd0

[[email protected]]

+1 Eta wins.

[Dale Watkins]

What behavior are we teaching ? Who is the next better pilot? When will the next GoPro accident come along? Just wondering -

[bumper[_4_]]

On Sunday, January 26, 2014 7:52:50 AM UTC-8, Dale Watkins wrote:
> What behavior are we teaching ? Who is the next better pilot? When will the next GoPro accident come along? Just wondering -

Fly and have fun. Unless you are the best, there'll always be someone better. Soon enough, I'm afraid.

I've seen a few low passes from the ground - - truly awesome, like watching an eagle fly, there'd be something missing in never having seen and heard one of our graceful ships smokin' fast down low. And though as I get older I'm becoming more risk averse, I still enjoy doing a low pass now and then. Also do a fair amount of low flying and landing in unusual places in my Husky.

I can't imagine trying to go through life never taking chances.

bumper
MKIV & QV (available at Cumulus, Williams, and SoaringNV)

[Tom Kelley #711]

On Thursday, January 23, 2014 6:08:19 AM UTC-7, Andrew Brayer wrote:
> here's mine:
>
>
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2S7T81LbvIs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UK5XVGV8eM8&feature=related

[kirk.stant]

On Sunday, January 26, 2014 9:52:50 AM UTC-6, Dale Watkins wrote:
> What behavior are we teaching ?

That there are intangible rewards for working on becoming a skillful pilot?

I guess it's better to sit back at watch a football game as the players try to give each other concussions - yeah - that' the behavior we should be teaching!

Kirk
66

[Dan Marotta]

That used to be the standard contest finish. In fact, the first time I was
there when was coming in, I was told to come and watch, "the contest
finish". There was no contest, just someone having fun. I also saw loops
flown on downind. I did that once (twice, actually) at Alice Springs, NT,
Australia in their twin Lark with a passenger, and got grounded for the day.

Try that at a contest these days and see what your score sheet looks like...


"kirk.stant" > wrote in message
...
> On Sunday, January 26, 2014 9:52:50 AM UTC-6, Dale Watkins wrote:
>> What behavior are we teaching ?
>
> That there are intangible rewards for working on becoming a skillful
> pilot?
>
> I guess it's better to sit back at watch a football game as the players
> try to give each other concussions - yeah - that' the behavior we should
> be teaching!
>
> Kirk
> 66

[Nigel Pocock[_2_]]

Try this
http://vimeo.com/85088205
>
>

[Wolf Aviator[_2_]]

At 23:03 26 January 2014, Nigel Pocock wrote:
>Try this
>http://vimeo.com/85088205
>>
>>
>
>

Here's my favourite low pass:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2pLpIOBweA


Regards
Wolf
http://youtu.be/aQUB7erVIKw

[Sean F (F2)]

The post mills guy was base, base to final and final at around 50 kts. Not very smart...

On Sunday, January 26, 2014 1:11:50 PM UTC-5, Tom Kelley #711 wrote:
> On Thursday, January 23, 2014 6:08:19 AM UTC-7, Andrew Brayer wrote:
>
> > here's mine:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2S7T81LbvIs
>
>
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UK5XVGV8eM8&feature=related

[Evan Ludeman[_4_]]

On Sunday, January 26, 2014 7:48:13 PM UTC-5, Sean F (F2) wrote:
> The post mills guy was base, base to final and final at around 50 kts. Not very smart...

You can have your own opinion, but facts are just facts. I'm smart enough to know that much.

About 55 on base, 50 ish on final with full landing flaps + full spoilers. 48 works better on final if you need to be steep/short. Just like the Schleicher manual says.


Evan Ludeman / T8

[Tom Kelley #711]

On Sunday, January 26, 2014 6:25:13 PM UTC-7, Evan Ludeman wrote:
> On Sunday, January 26, 2014 7:48:13 PM UTC-5, Sean F (F2) wrote:
>
> > The post mills guy was base, base to final and final at around 50 kts. Not very smart...
>
>
>
> You can have your own opinion, but facts are just facts. I'm smart enough to know that much.
>
>
>
> About 55 on base, 50 ish on final with full landing flaps + full spoilers. 48 works better on final if you need to be steep/short. Just like the Schleicher manual says.
>
>
>
>
>
> Evan Ludeman / T8

Well done T8! Actually, I see it as an extremely well flown approach and pass, followed by precise airspeed control on downwind, base and final.

On the 29 Sean, that yellow triangle around 52 kts...its in your manual.

#711.

[Sean F (F2)]

OK, I thought 60 knots (at least) was the "right number" for patterns until established final. Especially that low. I certainly could be wrong.

This video was a very cool high speed pass for sure but it just seemed a little wobbly at first glance later in the pattern. I was nervous for the pilot. My apologies if 50 kts the correct pattern speed and/or is what the ASW20/27 manual recommends for patterns. My flight manual is in Florida.

Again, I may be wrong, but I was taught to always (always!) try to go at least 60 knots in the pattern. More often I fly 65-70. Sometimes when rough or windy, 75-80 thru the base/final turn. It is so easy for me to slow down from those speeds and control is so much better while making the turns.

Am I wrong for going that fast? Is 50 knots a better number?

Sean

On Sunday, January 26, 2014 8:35:26 PM UTC-5, Tom Kelley #711 wrote:
> On Sunday, January 26, 2014 6:25:13 PM UTC-7, Evan Ludeman wrote:
>
> > On Sunday, January 26, 2014 7:48:13 PM UTC-5, Sean F (F2) wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > The post mills guy was base, base to final and final at around 50 kts.. Not very smart...
>
> >
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> >
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> >
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> > You can have your own opinion, but facts are just facts. I'm smart enough to know that much.
>
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>
> >
>
> >
>
> > About 55 on base, 50 ish on final with full landing flaps + full spoilers. 48 works better on final if you need to be steep/short. Just like the Schleicher manual says.
>
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> >
>
> >
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> > Evan Ludeman / T8
>
>
>
> Well done T8! Actually, I see it as an extremely well flown approach and pass, followed by precise airspeed control on downwind, base and final.
>
>
>
> On the 29 Sean, that yellow triangle around 52 kts...its in your manual.
>
>
>
> #711.

[SoaringXCellence]

On Sunday, January 26, 2014 5:50:35 PM UTC-8, Sean F (F2) wrote:
> OK, I thought 60 knots (at least) was the "right number" for patterns until established final. Especially that low. I certainly could be wrong.
>
>
>
> This video was a very cool high speed pass for sure but it just seemed a little wobbly at first glance later in the pattern. I was nervous for the pilot. My apologies if 50 kts the correct pattern speed and/or is what the ASW20/27 manual recommends for patterns. My flight manual is in Florida.
>
>
>
> Again, I may be wrong, but I was taught to always (always!) try to go at least 60 knots in the pattern. More often I fly 65-70. Sometimes when rough or windy, 75-80 thru the base/final turn. It is so easy for me to slow down from those speeds and control is so much better while making the turns..
>
>
>
> Am I wrong for going that fast? Is 50 knots a better number?
>
>
>
> Sean
>
>
>
> On Sunday, January 26, 2014 8:35:26 PM UTC-5, Tom Kelley #711 wrote:
>
> > On Sunday, January 26, 2014 6:25:13 PM UTC-7, Evan Ludeman wrote:
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> >
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> > > On Sunday, January 26, 2014 7:48:13 PM UTC-5, Sean F (F2) wrote:
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> > > > The post mills guy was base, base to final and final at around 50 kts. Not very smart...
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> > > You can have your own opinion, but facts are just facts. I'm smart enough to know that much.
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> > > About 55 on base, 50 ish on final with full landing flaps + full spoilers. 48 works better on final if you need to be steep/short. Just like the Schleicher manual says.
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> > > Evan Ludeman / T8
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> > Well done T8! Actually, I see it as an extremely well flown approach and pass, followed by precise airspeed control on downwind, base and final.
>
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> > On the 29 Sean, that yellow triangle around 52 kts...its in your manual..
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> > #711.

Minor quibble: Always and Never are two words that are difficult to use when applied to flying.

I have met several pilots that were taught "always" and "never" rules who seemed to get lost when the rule needed to be broken or just wasn't applicable. Application of skill and basic knowledge of aerodynamics should be applied to very situation. Like the 200 foot call-out, not all rules-of-thumb work in all locations or conditions.


MB (off the soapbox, flame-suit on)

[Andrew Brayer]

I think thats a bit fast for these racing gliders in calm conditions, they carry their energy so well. But you know that already. I add speed when the conditions warrant, but evan is a good pilot and i wouldnt call him unsafe.. Our manuals do say something a bit lower for approach speeds but there are 1000 ways to skin a cat.



Lets stay focused on the topic at hand, and not argue for arguments sake

And since this is a thread about speedpasses, and not approach speeds here's another:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvfxIQ1viKI&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[Tom Gardner[_2_]]

On 27/01/14 00:48, Sean F (F2) wrote:
> The post mills guy was base, base to final and final at around 50 kts. Not very smart...

If you are interested in "buttock clenching" final glides
(as opposed to high speed passes), there's always this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZxvYMC2QvI

Don't fast-forward, and do figure out where he's going to land :)

[J. Nieuwenhuize]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUIidefCaA8

Maybe one of the scariest...

[[email protected]]

On Sunday, January 26, 2014 1:11:50 PM UTC-5, Tom Kelley #711 wrote:
>
>
>
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UK5XVGV8eM8&feature=related

Nice compilation! Some really good ones. My favorite one though is at 5:08....