A bit breezy today...

[Dan Marotta]

From Weather Underground:

Strong to very strong winds are currently impacting the higher terrain of
the central mountains extending from the Sangre de Cristos southward to the
northern Sacramento Mountains (we're directly in the middle of that) as well
as the east slopes. These strong winds will gradually progress away from the
central mountains through late morning and impact the High Plains (that's
where we are). Wind speeds will generally range between 30 to 40 mph with
gusts to 60 mph through 11 am. There will be localized areas to the Lee of
the central mountains that will experience very strong and damaging mountain
wave winds with gusts as high as 80 mph. Raton Airport has experienced wind
gusts as high as 83 mph around 6 am. The wind direction will primarily be
westerly so high profile vehicles traveling along north to south orientated
highways will be impacted most.
High Wind Warning in effect until 7 PM MST Friday...

Looks like a great wave forecast if only we could get our gliders safely to
the launch point!

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

On 1/30/2014 9:08 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> From Weather Underground:
>
> Strong to very strong winds are currently impacting the higher terrain of the
> central mountains extending from the Sangre de Cristos southward to the
> northern Sacramento Mountains (we're directly in the middle of that) as well
> as the east slopes. These strong winds will gradually progress away from the
> central mountains through late morning and impact the High Plains (that's
> where we are). Wind speeds will generally range between 30 to 40 mph with
> gusts to 60 mph through 11 am. There will be localized areas to the Lee of the
> central mountains that will experience very strong and damaging mountain wave
> winds with gusts as high as 80 mph. Raton Airport has experienced wind gusts
> as high as 83 mph around 6 am. The wind direction will primarily be westerly
> so high profile vehicles traveling along north to south orientated highways
> will be impacted most.
> High Wind Warning in effect until 7 PM MST Friday...

Hadda make a vehicular O&R from Hillrose (CO) to Laramie (WY) yesterday; went
via I-80's ~9k' pass between Cheyenne & Laramie. The two primary computerized
messages on the interstate signs were: 1) Expect high winds; high profile,
lightweight vehicles prohibited; and 2) Expect wind gusts of 65+ mph. The
precautions were for both E-W I-80 and N-S I-25. I doubt we experienced more
than 40 mph gusts. Approaching Cheyenne from the east, the rotors had that
shredded look so uninviting to semi-experienced wave pilots!

Bob W.

[Dan Marotta]

Only did one tow. Entered rotor just off the departure end at about 1,000'
AGL. Winds on landing were about 20 deg right at 27 G 32 kts. Taxiing was
the hardest part...


"Bob Whelan" > wrote in message
...
> On 1/30/2014 9:08 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> From Weather Underground:
>>
>> Strong to very strong winds are currently impacting the higher terrain of
>> the
>> central mountains extending from the Sangre de Cristos southward to the
>> northern Sacramento Mountains (we're directly in the middle of that) as
>> well
>> as the east slopes. These strong winds will gradually progress away from
>> the
>> central mountains through late morning and impact the High Plains (that's
>> where we are). Wind speeds will generally range between 30 to 40 mph with
>> gusts to 60 mph through 11 am. There will be localized areas to the Lee
>> of the
>> central mountains that will experience very strong and damaging mountain
>> wave
>> winds with gusts as high as 80 mph. Raton Airport has experienced wind
>> gusts
>> as high as 83 mph around 6 am. The wind direction will primarily be
>> westerly
>> so high profile vehicles traveling along north to south orientated
>> highways
>> will be impacted most.
>> High Wind Warning in effect until 7 PM MST Friday...
>
> Hadda make a vehicular O&R from Hillrose (CO) to Laramie (WY) yesterday;
> went via I-80's ~9k' pass between Cheyenne & Laramie. The two primary
> computerized messages on the interstate signs were: 1) Expect high winds;
> high profile, lightweight vehicles prohibited; and 2) Expect wind gusts of
> 65+ mph. The precautions were for both E-W I-80 and N-S I-25. I doubt we
> experienced more than 40 mph gusts. Approaching Cheyenne from the east,
> the rotors had that shredded look so uninviting to semi-experienced wave
> pilots!
>
> Bob W.
>

[son_of_flubber]

On Thursday, January 30, 2014 7:57:49 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Only did one tow. Entered rotor just off the departure end at about 1,000'
> AGL. Winds on landing were about 20 deg right at 27 G 32 kts. Taxiing was
> the hardest part...

My take away: Should I live long enough, I will eventually be tempted to launch when I know that I had better not.

[Frank Whiteley]

On Thursday, January 30, 2014 9:37:16 AM UTC-7, Bob Whelan wrote:
> On 1/30/2014 9:08 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
>
> > From Weather Underground:
>
> >
>
> > Strong to very strong winds are currently impacting the higher terrain of the
>
> > central mountains extending from the Sangre de Cristos southward to the
>
> > northern Sacramento Mountains (we're directly in the middle of that) as well
>
> > as the east slopes. These strong winds will gradually progress away from the
>
> > central mountains through late morning and impact the High Plains (that's
>
> > where we are). Wind speeds will generally range between 30 to 40 mph with
>
> > gusts to 60 mph through 11 am. There will be localized areas to the Lee of the
>
> > central mountains that will experience very strong and damaging mountain wave
>
> > winds with gusts as high as 80 mph. Raton Airport has experienced wind gusts
>
> > as high as 83 mph around 6 am. The wind direction will primarily be westerly
>
> > so high profile vehicles traveling along north to south orientated highways
>
> > will be impacted most.
>
> > High Wind Warning in effect until 7 PM MST Friday...
>
>
>
> Hadda make a vehicular O&R from Hillrose (CO) to Laramie (WY) yesterday; went
>
> via I-80's ~9k' pass between Cheyenne & Laramie. The two primary computerized
>
> messages on the interstate signs were: 1) Expect high winds; high profile,
>
> lightweight vehicles prohibited; and 2) Expect wind gusts of 65+ mph. The
>
> precautions were for both E-W I-80 and N-S I-25. I doubt we experienced more
>
> than 40 mph gusts. Approaching Cheyenne from the east, the rotors had that
>
> shredded look so uninviting to semi-experienced wave pilots!
>
>
>
> Bob W.

I-25 north of Wellington has been closed since last evening. About 5" of heavyish snow. I shoveled away about 4 inches at 11pm last night to make today's chore easier.

Frank W

[Dan Marotta]

My buddy in Buena Vista woke up to 18 inches of snow this morning. We could
sure use some snow in NM.

<snip from son_of_flubber>

My take away: Should I live long enough, I will eventually be tempted to
launch when I know that I had better not.


....And why, Dear Flub, should you better not? As long as the pilots are
proficient and the controls are not hitting the stops, the takeoff and
landing are safe. In the past 90 days, I've made 146 takeoffs and landings
in various tail draggers (mostly the Ag Wagon) and the DPE (and owner) was
administering the BFR.

"Frank Whiteley" > wrote in message
...
> On Thursday, January 30, 2014 9:37:16 AM UTC-7, Bob Whelan wrote:
>> On 1/30/2014 9:08 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>
>> > From Weather Underground:
>>
>> >
>>
>> > Strong to very strong winds are currently impacting the higher terrain
>> > of the
>>
>> > central mountains extending from the Sangre de Cristos southward to the
>>
>> > northern Sacramento Mountains (we're directly in the middle of that) as
>> > well
>>
>> > as the east slopes. These strong winds will gradually progress away
>> > from the
>>
>> > central mountains through late morning and impact the High Plains
>> > (that's
>>
>> > where we are). Wind speeds will generally range between 30 to 40 mph
>> > with
>>
>> > gusts to 60 mph through 11 am. There will be localized areas to the Lee
>> > of the
>>
>> > central mountains that will experience very strong and damaging
>> > mountain wave
>>
>> > winds with gusts as high as 80 mph. Raton Airport has experienced wind
>> > gusts
>>
>> > as high as 83 mph around 6 am. The wind direction will primarily be
>> > westerly
>>
>> > so high profile vehicles traveling along north to south orientated
>> > highways
>>
>> > will be impacted most.
>>
>> > High Wind Warning in effect until 7 PM MST Friday...
>>
>>
>>
>> Hadda make a vehicular O&R from Hillrose (CO) to Laramie (WY) yesterday;
>> went
>>
>> via I-80's ~9k' pass between Cheyenne & Laramie. The two primary
>> computerized
>>
>> messages on the interstate signs were: 1) Expect high winds; high
>> profile,
>>
>> lightweight vehicles prohibited; and 2) Expect wind gusts of 65+ mph. The
>>
>> precautions were for both E-W I-80 and N-S I-25. I doubt we experienced
>> more
>>
>> than 40 mph gusts. Approaching Cheyenne from the east, the rotors had
>> that
>>
>> shredded look so uninviting to semi-experienced wave pilots!
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob W.
>
> I-25 north of Wellington has been closed since last evening. About 5" of
> heavyish snow. I shoveled away about 4 inches at 11pm last night to make
> today's chore easier.
>
> Frank W

[kirk.stant]

Son_of_flubber, you do realize that when the wind is really strong, the problem of a crosswind no longer exists?

Cuz now you can land ACROSS the runway!

BTDT, and seen it done many times. It's amazing how small a place you can put a glider into when the wind is around 40 knots!

And, seriously, it's fun.

Its a good skill to have in your hip pocket for when you get back to the field the same time as a strong gust front. The next time the wind is strong (for takeoff, it helps if it's somewhat aligned with the runway), go out and fly and find out what kind of pattern is needed when your groundspeed on final is in the teens.

Kirk
66

[son_of_flubber]

On Friday, January 31, 2014 1:29:06 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:

> <snip from son_of_flubber>

> My take away: Should I live long enough, I will eventually be tempted to
> launch when I know that I had better not.

Says Dan:
> ...And why, Dear Flub, should you better not?

I was thinking that someday there will be a tow pilot that will be willing to aerotow me when the margins for me launching (and landing) in a glider are thin to adverse. The commercial tow pilots that aerotow me have much greater ability (and a 250 hp engine). I honestly don't know, is it harder or easier to land a Pawnee or a glider in gusty conditions? I assume that the Pawnee could at least "go around" (plus the tow pilot has a lot more experience.)

When I read your account, I put myself in the shoes of the glider pilot that decided to launch with your one and only tow of the day. One of the hardest things for me is to go home without flying because of marginal conditions. It's hard because other people are launching and landing, and it is especially hard when there is tremendous lift after a "dry spell".

I guess I'm saying that it is tempting for me to follow the lead of the tow pilot and other glider pilots, and so my take away is that I need to be aware of that temptation and peer pressure. I almost feel like I should write on (and read from) the top of my checklist "I will be tempted to launch when I should just go home."

[son_of_flubber]

On Friday, January 31, 2014 5:53:38 PM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:
> Son_of_flubber, you do realize that when the wind is really strong, the problem of a crosswind no longer exists?
>
>
>
> Cuz now you can land ACROSS the runway!
>
>
>
> BTDT, and seen it done many times. It's amazing how small a place you can put a glider into when the wind is around 40 knots!
>
>
>
> And, seriously, it's fun.
>
>
>
> Its a good skill to have in your hip pocket for when you get back to the field the same time as a strong gust front. The next time the wind is strong (for takeoff, it helps if it's somewhat aligned with the runway), go out and fly and find out what kind of pattern is needed when your groundspeed on final is in the teens.
>
>
>
> Kirk
>
> 66

Kirk,

I appreciate your comment and it is food for thought (the wind just happens to be gusting to 40 knots outside at the moment, though the glider is snowed in.) I really should be prepared for a gusty crosswind coming up between launch and land some time because I fly at a narrow single strip airport in wave season (when the wind tends to be crosswind to start).

I have launched and landed in strong headwind, moderate crosswind and rotor that called for 75 knots IAS. So far it has been fun. Landing perpendicular to the runway is not quite the same and may not be possible at my home airport. I will discuss this option with the local experts. I might do better landing into the wind at a nearby hayfield.

There are some extraordinary pilots in gliders and I need to realize my limitations and be careful to not think "well if he did it, so can I". The range of abilities and risk tolerance is very large.

[Renny[_2_]]

I generally operate with a "rule of three".....If there are three "strikes," I do not launch....Assuming there is not one very serious "strike" (like a very strong crosswind) with two "strikes" or less, I will generally take a launch.

So, for example, the first strike might be a "borderline" crosswind. The second strike might be that I feel tired and perhaps I did not sleep well the previous night. The third strike might be that the lift is not predicted to be very good....

If there are "three strikes" I generally will not launch...I may make an exception, but that is very rare.....If it turns out that it was a good day, that's fine that I missed it, but at least I will be able to fly on another day....and perhaps by not launching I may have avoided an accident. That accident might have damaged the ship and caused me to lose many weeks, or even an entire season of flying, while it is being repaired.

We all have to have our own set of rules and not let peer pressure cause us to take a launch when we really should NOT...

As Clint Eastwood once said:

"A man's got to know his limitations."


On Friday, January 31, 2014 4:06:52 PM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Friday, January 31, 2014 1:29:06 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
>
>
>
> > <snip from son_of_flubber>
>
>
>
> > My take away: Should I live long enough, I will eventually be tempted to
>
> > launch when I know that I had better not.
>
>
>
> Says Dan:
>
> > ...And why, Dear Flub, should you better not?
>
>
>
> I was thinking that someday there will be a tow pilot that will be willing to aerotow me when the margins for me launching (and landing) in a glider are thin to adverse. The commercial tow pilots that aerotow me have much greater ability (and a 250 hp engine). I honestly don't know, is it harder or easier to land a Pawnee or a glider in gusty conditions? I assume that the Pawnee could at least "go around" (plus the tow pilot has a lot more experience.)
>
>
>
> When I read your account, I put myself in the shoes of the glider pilot that decided to launch with your one and only tow of the day. One of the hardest things for me is to go home without flying because of marginal conditions. It's hard because other people are launching and landing, and it is especially hard when there is tremendous lift after a "dry spell".
>
>
>
> I guess I'm saying that it is tempting for me to follow the lead of the tow pilot and other glider pilots, and so my take away is that I need to be aware of that temptation and peer pressure. I almost feel like I should write on (and read from) the top of my checklist "I will be tempted to launch when I should just go home."

[BobW]

On 1/31/2014 4:06 PM, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Friday, January 31, 2014 1:29:06 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
>
>> <snip from son_of_flubber>
>
>> My take away: Should I live long enough, I will eventually be tempted
>> to launch when I know that I had better not.
>
> Says Dan:
>> ...And why, Dear Flub, should you better not?
>
> I was thinking that someday there will be a tow pilot that will be willing
> to aerotow me when the margins for me launching (and landing) in a glider
> are thin to adverse. The commercial tow pilots that aerotow me have much
> greater ability (and a 250 hp engine). I honestly don't know, is it harder
> or easier to land a Pawnee or a glider in gusty conditions? I assume that
> the Pawnee could at least "go around" (plus the tow pilot has a lot more
> experience.)
>
> When I read your account, I put myself in the shoes of the glider pilot
> that decided to launch with your one and only tow of the day. One of the
> hardest things for me is to go home without flying because of marginal
> conditions. It's hard because other people are launching and landing, and
> it is especially hard when there is tremendous lift after a "dry spell".
>
> I guess I'm saying that it is tempting for me to follow the lead of the tow
> pilot and other glider pilots, and so my take away is that I need to be
> aware of that temptation and peer pressure. I almost feel like I should
> write on (and read from) the top of my checklist "I will be tempted to
> launch when I should just go home."

"Pilot, know thyself!" certainly applies to these sorts of soaring go/no-go
decisions.

When I had less than 200 total hours and was flying a 1-26, both in the
mountains of MD and the intermountain west, I found there were days when
towpilots declined to tow, when I thought I could handle pattern conditions
safely...even if actual soaring might not be possible. Back then I felt "the
acquiring of stick time" was near the top of my priority list...from which all
good things might then flow. (And yes, I recognized I had my own limits, which
were 100% my responsibility to determine and respect.)

A couple of years and couple hundred hours later, I was flying a short-span
(16.5 meter), V-tailed, HP-14, with the as-designed (short-span) ailerons.
Somewhat to my dismay (but not surprise), I found then that I would quit
towing before the towpilots would. This reflected my assessment of what that
ship (and I) could safely do in raucous pattern conditions. (It was leisurely
in roll and had distinctly less rudder authority than a 1-26.) I know it cost
me some soaring days, but OTOH, the ship's performance (and growing
experience) allowed me to gain stick time that may not have been possible in a
1-26. Other pilots' decisions to tow - and successfully go soaring - had zero
impact on my own thought process and decision-making.

I found the first situation (i.e. "Darn! No one will tow me [or anyone
else!]") far more surprising than the latter (i.e. "*I* ain't towing today!),
because it was the first time I gained a quantitative sense of my growing
skill set, whereas the second realization was a no-brainer, for me.

As Clint Eastwood and Renny R. said, "A man's GOT to know his own limitations!"

Bob W.

[son_of_flubber]

On Friday, January 31, 2014 7:11:13 PM UTC-5, BobW wrote:
> I found there were days when towpilots declined to tow, when I thought I could handle pattern conditions safely...

I felt a little silly when one day last summer a table full of CFIGs and tow pilots were just finishing up a meeting. One looked up and asked me "So Flub, do you want to go fly?" Only after I pointed out that conditions had calmed down considerably in the last hour, and that I was game, did I realize that they were pulling my leg. It was still too gusty to seriously think about launching. The go/no-go decisions sometimes seem very subtle to me and the variation in personal limits from pilot to pilot make it hard to learn from observation.

The thing that I find most helpful is to watch a few launches and landings, and then decide, but of course I can't do that on a slow day. There's no WX at the home airport and the wind sock seems a crude indicator, especially on a variable day.

[Alan[_6_]]

In article > "Dan Marotta" > writes:
>My buddy in Buena Vista woke up to 18 inches of snow this morning. We could
>sure use some snow in NM.
>
><snip from son_of_flubber>
>
>My take away: Should I live long enough, I will eventually be tempted to
>launch when I know that I had better not.
>
>
>...And why, Dear Flub, should you better not? As long as the pilots are
>proficient and the controls are not hitting the stops, the takeoff and
>landing are safe. In the past 90 days, I've made 146 takeoffs and landings
>in various tail draggers (mostly the Ag Wagon) and the DPE (and owner) was
>administering the BFR.


Perhaps he was following the advice "If there's any doubt, there is no doubt."

The controls may not be hitting the stops during the takeoff, but if there
is doubt that they may be later on, then there is no doubt about the decision
to not fly.

Alan

p.s. How will this decision read in an accident report?

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Fri, 31 Jan 2014 18:35:14 -0800, son_of_flubber wrote:

> The thing that I find most helpful is to watch a few launches and
> landings, and then decide, but of course I can't do that on a slow day.
> There's no WX at the home airport and the wind sock seems a crude
> indicator, especially on a variable day.

You could buy yourself a hand-held anemometer: the Davis units are very
good and don't cost an arm and a leg.

Several years back I made some measurements with a Davis anemometer, GPS,
stopwatch and free flight F1A towline glider. I flew the model as normal
with 2 or 3 minutes set on the dethermaliser, fired it into a thermal off
the standard 50m towline, timed it down, checked the anemometer reading
before and after the flight and then took a GPS with me when I went to
pick the model up so I knew how far it had gone. This was done on a
sunny, thermally day with a wind speed of around 3 m/s (6kts). The flying
field was a large flat, grazed grassy area.

This showed that the average wind speed in the bottom 400-500 ft is about
200% of the anemometer reading when held above my head and far enough in
front for me to read it, i.e. 2m above the ground.

So, once you've checked the wind speed, double it to get the estimated
wind at flying height and compare that with your personal comfort level
to determine whether to fly or not.

My personal XC limit is around 20 kts at flying height: anything above 18
kts means that I have to keep an eye on the drift when rounding a
turnpoint (I fly a relatively slow Std Libelle) and, here in the UK with
its 2-4kt thermals, wind of more than 25 kts tends to break thermals up
unless its a very thermic day.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Dan Marotta]

Kirk is spot on.

Last year I watched from the window as one of the big names at Moriarty flew
in at 45 degrees to the runway, landed just over the tie downs, rolled
across our staging area, and stopped short of the runway.

I once landed perpendicular to the runway at Black Forest, rolled across the
grass infield, gravel taxiway and apron, and stopped in front of the hangar.
They I had to "fly" the glider on the ground until the rain and hail
finished their work before anyone would step outside to help.

I do not advocate that people go out and do such things for sport, but you
should be proficient at cross wind operations and always have a plan of
action when it's too strong (which, the other day, it was not). If we did
not takeoff in strong winds, we'd miss a lot of great flights.

"kirk.stant" > wrote in message
...
Son_of_flubber, you do realize that when the wind is really strong, the
problem of a crosswind no longer exists?

Cuz now you can land ACROSS the runway!

BTDT, and seen it done many times. It's amazing how small a place you can
put a glider into when the wind is around 40 knots!

And, seriously, it's fun.

Its a good skill to have in your hip pocket for when you get back to the
field the same time as a strong gust front. The next time the wind is
strong (for takeoff, it helps if it's somewhat aligned with the runway), go
out and fly and find out what kind of pattern is needed when your
groundspeed on final is in the teens.

Kirk
66

[Dan Marotta]

You sound like you have excellent judgment, Flub.

You should never takeoff when you don't feel qualified (just yet) just
because some of the old heads are doing it. Please recall that, on my only
flight of two days ago, that the wind was only about 20-30 degrees off
runway heading. That means, as I'm sure you know, that the maximum cross
wind component was no more than half of the total wind speed, or about 15
kts, which is well within the capabilities of the Ag Wagon, and approaching
the limit of the Grob. The CFI on board for the flight review is also the
owner of the operation and all the aircraft and he's an FAA Designated Pilot
Examiner. It's certainly in his best interests that everything be safe.

On a day like the one in question, he will always ask me if I'm comfortable
with the tow and, yesterday, I was. Had the wind been from the left side, I
may very well have declined since there would have marginal rudder authority
to control the Ag Wagon on the ground.

I'm very proud of my record of 41 years of flying and never having damaged
an aircraft. On two separate occasions this past year, I've pushed my
glider back off the launch line because I was not happy with the winds.
Others launched.

Where do you fly?

"son_of_flubber" > wrote in message
...
On Friday, January 31, 2014 1:29:06 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:

> <snip from son_of_flubber>

> My take away: Should I live long enough, I will eventually be tempted to
> launch when I know that I had better not.

Says Dan:
> ...And why, Dear Flub, should you better not?

I was thinking that someday there will be a tow pilot that will be willing
to aerotow me when the margins for me launching (and landing) in a glider
are thin to adverse. The commercial tow pilots that aerotow me have much
greater ability (and a 250 hp engine). I honestly don't know, is it harder
or easier to land a Pawnee or a glider in gusty conditions? I assume that
the Pawnee could at least "go around" (plus the tow pilot has a lot more
experience.)

When I read your account, I put myself in the shoes of the glider pilot that
decided to launch with your one and only tow of the day. One of the hardest
things for me is to go home without flying because of marginal conditions.
It's hard because other people are launching and landing, and it is
especially hard when there is tremendous lift after a "dry spell".

I guess I'm saying that it is tempting for me to follow the lead of the tow
pilot and other glider pilots, and so my take away is that I need to be
aware of that temptation and peer pressure. I almost feel like I should
write on (and read from) the top of my checklist "I will be tempted to
launch when I should just go home."

[kirk.stant]

On Friday, January 31, 2014 5:29:50 PM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:

> There are some extraordinary pilots in gliders and I need to realize my limitations and be careful to not think "well if he did it, so can I". The range of abilities and risk tolerance is very large.

"Extraordinary" is usually a code word for either "takes a lot of risks" or for "has a lot of experience". Sometimes, it's hard to tell the difference...but experience is something we need to continually seek and develop.

As far a winds, taking off in strong crosswinds are a real problem that can be easily avoided by having a beer and putting away the glider; but landing in strong winds is one of those things we have to practice and be prepared for, as you know. Help to think about it beforehand, know where on your field you can land in any direction, and be prepared to land there if needed - and remember you don't have to land in a straight line, either.

As far as towing, a Pawnee or a Supercub can be a handful in a strong crosswind - when you run out of rudder you are done and have to go somewhere else! If the towpilot will fly, then a glider should have no problem, but I've landed gliders in conditions I would not have enjoyed trying to get a towplane down and stopped...

Cheers!

Kirk
66

[son_of_flubber]

On Saturday, February 1, 2014 10:49:57 AM UTC-5, Martin Gregorie wrote:

> You could buy yourself a hand-held anemometer: the Davis units are very
> good and don't cost an arm and a leg.

That would make my observations more objective.

Here is the current Davis model
http://www.amazon.com/Brand-Davis-Electronic-Indicator-Category/dp/B00FBQUV5W/ref=sr_1_20?ie=UTF8&qid=1391390303&sr=8-20&keywords=anemometer%3ADavis

I like this device and it also gives a direct readout of dewpoint http://www.amazon.com/Extech-45158-Waterproof-Anemometer-Humidity/dp/B00023RVRU/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&qid=1391389210&sr=8-16&keywords=anemometer Same price as the Davis digital.

Here is a knockoff of a similar design, not waterproof and no dewpoint measurement http://www.amazon.com/WeatherHawk-SM-18-SkyMate-Hand-Held-Yellow/dp/B0000AY6UV/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1391390405&sr=8-10&keywords=anemometer

This Davis model is not pocket sized but it is a robust mechanical design. http://www.amazon.com/Davis-Wizard-Mechanical-Speed-Indicator/dp/B001DSUKXK/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1391388408&sr=8-7&keywords=anemometer%3ADavis

There are a bunch of extremely cheap ones available that may or may not work and carry no guarantee. Not sure I would trust the readings from a piece of junk.

[son_of_flubber]

Dan Marotta wrote:

> What is your real name?
> Where do you fly?
> What is your social security number?

I've given plenty of hints, and lots of people have guessed correctly, but my mama taught me well, to never give my real name, age, or personally identifying details to other kids that I meet on the internet.

It's also fun when I meet someone new in soaring circles and they match up my "in-world" person with Son_of_Flubber in less than five minutes. So in the interest of maximizing fun, I can only say, "I am Spartacus." Game not over.

[[email protected]]

On Monday, February 3, 2014 11:52:52 AM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
> Dan Marotta wrote:
>
>
>
> > What is your real name?
>
> > Where do you fly?
>
> > What is your social security number?
>
>
>
> I've given plenty of hints, and lots of people have guessed correctly, but my mama taught me well, to never give my real name, age, or personally identifying details to other kids that I meet on the internet.
>
>
>
> It's also fun when I meet someone new in soaring circles and they match up my "in-world" person with Son_of_Flubber in less than five minutes. So in the interest of maximizing fun, I can only say, "I am Spartacus." Game not over.

No, I am Spartacus......

[SF]

On Monday, February 3, 2014 11:52:52 AM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
> Dan Marotta wrote:
>
>
>
> > What is your real name?
>
> > Where do you fly?
>
> > What is your social security number?
>
>
>
> I've given plenty of hints, and lots of people have guessed correctly, but my mama taught me well, to never give my real name, age, or personally identifying details to other kids that I meet on the internet.
>
>
>
> It's also fun when I meet someone new in soaring circles and they match up my "in-world" person with Son_of_Flubber in less than five minutes. So in the interest of maximizing fun, I can only say, "I am Spartacus." Game not over.

If you are too embarrassed to give your real name I can only imagine how Flubber feels. Children can be such a disappointment at times. Thank goodness for you he was a Flubber and not a ******.

[Papa3[_2_]]

On Sunday, February 2, 2014 8:26:17 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Saturday, February 1, 2014 10:49:57 AM UTC-5, Martin Gregorie wrote:

> There are a bunch of extremely cheap ones available that may or may not work and carry no guarantee. Not sure I would trust the readings from a piece of junk.

A plug for NK Instruments Kestrel weather meters. Significantly more useful than many of the ones cited here and developed by my friend and (reasonably) well known glider-guider Richard Kellerman. These instruments are used by firefighters, smoke jumpers, and all people in all sorts of other demanding occupations. Base models can be had for under $100 from major online retailers, and full featured models that include things like pressure, density altitude, relative humidity, etc. are available for a around $200.

http://www.nkhome.com/kestrel/

[son_of_flubber]

On Monday, February 3, 2014 2:32:11 PM UTC-5, Papa3 wrote:

> A plug for NK Instruments Kestrel weather meters.

Very nice. The Kestrel line is far superior to the ones I posted above and the Amazon prices are comparable.

At $76, there is no excuse for me to not have one of these when I fly at an airport without WX station.

http://www.amazon.com/Kestrel-1000-Pocket-Wind-Meter/dp/B001JEPJZC/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1391457631&sr=8-7&keywords=kestrel+weather

The internet at the airport and my Ipod Touch provides much better big picture weather data, so I think that accurate real-time wind is the only thing that I'm really missing. If I were out in the wilderness fighting forest fires, I would want one of the more expensive instruments.

Most people know that the Kestrel is a small hawk that flies into the wind to feed on insects. I often see them in the air.

[kirk.stant]

On Monday, February 3, 2014 2:25:41 PM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:

> At $76, there is no excuse for me to not have one of these when I fly at an airport without WX station.

> The internet at the airport and my Ipod Touch provides much better big picture weather data, so I think that accurate real-time wind is the only thing that I'm really missing. If I were out in the wilderness fighting forest fires, I would want one of the more expensive instruments.

You need a wind meter to tell you if you can fly?

Seriously???

Hmmm - a blade of grass, wet finger, or (really high tech) a wind sock should give you all you need to know.

How do you land?

Kirk
66

PS IMO, not giving at least your first name (or racing callsign) is kinda rude. I'm glad I don't have your level of paranoia - oh, hi there NSA!

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Sun, 02 Feb 2014 17:26:17 -0800, son_of_flubber wrote:

> On Saturday, February 1, 2014 10:49:57 AM UTC-5, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>
>> You could buy yourself a hand-held anemometer: the Davis units are very
>> good and don't cost an arm and a leg.
>
> That would make my observations more objective.
>
> Here is the current Davis model
> http://www.amazon.com/Brand-Davis-Electronic-Indicator-Category/dp/
B00FBQUV5W/ref=sr_1_20?ie=UTF8&qid=1391390303&sr=8-20&keywords=anemometer%
3ADavis
>
That's exactly the same as mine. Its a surprise to see it still on the
market considering that I got mine some time before the October 1990, UK
Team Trials in an attempt to make sense of my competition scores in Free
Flight F1A glider flying: that is the first competition I have on record.

It is exceedingly free running: it will start and stabilise at around 0.6
kts if I walk across my living room with it.

I think any of the units with axial flow turbines and IR rpm sensing
should be OK. The turbine is probably better protected than the units
with a set of vertical axis cups on the top. I also have a suspicion that
those with a bigger turbine should be better because they should be less
affected by boundary layer effects within the duct.

> I like this device and it also gives a direct readout of dewpoint
> http://www.amazon.com/Extech-45158-Waterproof-Anemometer-Humidity/dp/
B00023RVRU/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&qid=1391389210&sr=8-16&keywords=anemometer
> Same price as the Davis digital.
>
So I notice. The hinged cover is a nice touch because you can't lose it.
My Davis came with a soft slip case that you remove before use. Some of
the others I've seen on offer don't appear to have any covers which means
there's no protection for the turbine or its bearings when its not in use.

However, I wonder it you really need the other things it measures. Temp
is nice and even useful. However, do you need it to measure humidity?
Having the canopy mist up when you get in and close it, when it simply
mists up as you tow out first thing in the morning or after landing
toward the end of a fall day is a pretty good indication that this isn't
a good time to commit aviation. Besides, a simple humidity measurement
isn't a sure fire indication whether misting will or won't occur.

> Here is a knockoff of a similar design, not waterproof and no dewpoint
> measurement
> http://www.amazon.com/WeatherHawk-SM-18-SkyMate-Hand-Held-Yellow/dp/
B0000AY6UV/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1391390405&sr=8-10&keywords=anemometer
>
Indeed. In fact, there's every likelihood this this is identical with the
Extech 45118 and I'd bet money that the cases on the two Extechs and this
one all came out of the same mould. IOW all three are Chinese OEM
equipment and the two wind+temp models differ only in custom case colours
and the names stamped on them.

> This Davis model is not pocket sized but it is a robust mechanical
> design.
> http://www.amazon.com/Davis-Wizard-Mechanical-Speed-Indicator/dp/
B001DSUKXK/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1391388408&sr=8-7&keywords=anemometer%
3ADavis
>
I personally wouldn't go for this one as its almost certainly measuring
wind pressure against a plate or the angle through which a vane is
deflected. If you want this type of system, you can make it yourself even
more cheaply. All you need is a pingpong ball, school protractor, spirit
level, a bit of 12 lb nylon fishing line and a bit of wooden broom handle.

This type of instrument is accurate to around 3%. The wood forms the
handle. You glue the protractor and level to one end so you can hold it
with the zero line exactly level. about 18ins of nylon line comes out of
a hole drilled through the centre point of the protractor and has the
pingpong ball on the other end. The windspeed is read from the deflection
from vertical of the nylon line. Years back 'Scientific American'
described this instrument and included the table for converting angle to
windspeed. Pingpong balls are are made to such close weight and size
tolerances that no calibration is needed.

> There are a bunch of extremely cheap ones available that may or may not
> work and carry no guarantee. Not sure I would trust the readings from a
> piece of junk.
>
Its easy to check them. Outdoors you can compare with a car's speedo, but
don't forget to do it on a flat calm day and average readings in opposite
directions to eliminate wind effects: its very unusual to see less then 1
m/s outdoors. Check the speedo with a measured distance (your runway?)
and a stopwatch.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Mon, 03 Feb 2014 11:32:11 -0800, Papa3 wrote:

> On Sunday, February 2, 2014 8:26:17 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
>> On Saturday, February 1, 2014 10:49:57 AM UTC-5, Martin Gregorie wrote:
>
>> There are a bunch of extremely cheap ones available that may or may not
>> work and carry no guarantee. Not sure I would trust the readings from
>> a piece of junk.
>
> A plug for NK Instruments Kestrel weather meters. Significantly more
> useful than many of the ones cited here and developed by my friend and
> (reasonably) well known glider-guider Richard Kellerman. These
> instruments are used by firefighters, smoke jumpers, and all people in
> all sorts of other demanding occupations. Base models can be had for
> under $100 from major online retailers, and full featured models that
> include things like pressure, density altitude, relative humidity, etc.
> are available for a around $200.
>
> http://www.nkhome.com/kestrel/

Agree. The Kestrel and the Davis instruments are similar in quality and
in the same general price range.

I see that Davis have a new handheld unit with no moving parts. It uses
an ultrasonic sensor. Has anybody seen one in use or heard anything about
them?


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[son_of_flubber]

On Monday, February 3, 2014 3:38:46 PM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:

> You need a wind meter to tell you if you can fly?

I agree that most days are obvious go or no-go. But I know that I do not estimate reliably on the rough but flyable days without seeing a few gliders take off and land. I'm especially bad at estimating gusts. A few knots make a big difference in energy and risk on the rough days.

I'm especially bad at noticing when conditions deteriorate from marginally acceptable to ridiculous and the discipline of using a meter will help me set and abide by some objective personal limits.

Crosswind gusts are also known to vary along the length of our runway due to terrain and buildings, and they vary with small deviations in wind direction. So I'm curious to walk along the length of the runway and evaluate the part of the story told by our solitary windsock.

I'm guessing that a meter will over time help me hone my ability to estimate current wind.

> How do you land?

I try hard to land once per launch, and of course I use the windsock and those trees on the edge of the runway. The meter reading is most relevant to launch.

So Kirk, you're saying that you don't check the automated weather broadcast wind numbers before you launch? (We don't have WX broadcast at my home airport.) I also like to check the weather radar before launch because lots of times the forecast thunderstorms are tracking well to the north or south.

[Dan Marotta]

I may have asked for your height, weight, SSAN, bank account number, and
favorite beer, but I did NOT ask for your name!

Just curious where you fly so I can check it out on google maps.

"son_of_flubber" > wrote in message
...
> Dan Marotta wrote:
>
>> What is your real name?
>> Where do you fly?
>> What is your social security number?
>
> I've given plenty of hints, and lots of people have guessed correctly, but
> my mama taught me well, to never give my real name, age, or personally
> identifying details to other kids that I meet on the internet.
>
> It's also fun when I meet someone new in soaring circles and they match up
> my "in-world" person with Son_of_Flubber in less than five minutes. So in
> the interest of maximizing fun, I can only say, "I am Spartacus." Game
> not over.

[Dan Marotta]

Couldn't you could hold the wind-o-meter out the window in the pattern to
gauge the winds? ...And when you're walking the runway taking measurements,
don't forget to keep your head down!


"son_of_flubber" > wrote in message
...
On Monday, February 3, 2014 3:38:46 PM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:

> You need a wind meter to tell you if you can fly?

I agree that most days are obvious go or no-go. But I know that I do not
estimate reliably on the rough but flyable days without seeing a few gliders
take off and land. I'm especially bad at estimating gusts. A few knots make
a big difference in energy and risk on the rough days.

I'm especially bad at noticing when conditions deteriorate from marginally
acceptable to ridiculous and the discipline of using a meter will help me
set and abide by some objective personal limits.

Crosswind gusts are also known to vary along the length of our runway due to
terrain and buildings, and they vary with small deviations in wind
direction. So I'm curious to walk along the length of the runway and
evaluate the part of the story told by our solitary windsock.

I'm guessing that a meter will over time help me hone my ability to estimate
current wind.

> How do you land?

I try hard to land once per launch, and of course I use the windsock and
those trees on the edge of the runway. The meter reading is most relevant
to launch.

So Kirk, you're saying that you don't check the automated weather broadcast
wind numbers before you launch? (We don't have WX broadcast at my home
airport.) I also like to check the weather radar before launch because lots
of times the forecast thunderstorms are tracking well to the north or south.

[kirk.stant]

On Monday, February 3, 2014 6:23:50 PM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:

>
> So Kirk, you're saying that you don't check the automated weather broadcast wind numbers before you launch? (We don't have WX broadcast at my home airport.) I also like to check the weather radar before launch because lots of times the forecast thunderstorms are tracking well to the north or south.

That's right, I don't check it. I look at the windsock on our hangar, and take a moment to see what the wind is doing at our field (which also doesn't have a WX broadcast). If I'm planning an XC flight I'll look at the XCSkies wind forecasts for the times of the flight, and of course keep an eye on large scale changes (approaching storms, etc). But at takeoff? I look out the window to see if there is a lull or gust or thermal, and plan accordingly.

But I don't obsess about a few knots, and am happy taking off or landing a bit downwind if it makes the operations smoother or safer (common to land the towplanes downwind to save turnaround time).

It's more the quality (gusty or variable) vs the quantity (raw velocity) of the wind that I care about. For example, I know with a westerly crosswind there will be turbulence once we get out of the wind shadow of the hangar. That is not going to be in any automated report ;^).

But hey - nothing wrong with using every tool at your disposal. My cockpit is testament to that (lots of gizmos)!

And I must admit that I fly mostly from either desert or flatland sites, which may not have the conditions you have to cope with. So please don't take my comments as being derogatory! Just having a little fun on RAS...waiting for the snow to start falling again...

Cheers!

Kirk
66

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

On 2/4/2014 11:18 AM, kirk.stant wrote:
> On Monday, February 3, 2014 6:23:50 PM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:
>
>>
>> So Kirk, you're saying that you don't check the automated weather
>> broadcast wind numbers before you launch? (We don't have WX broadcast at
>> my home airport.) I also like to check the weather radar before launch
>> because lots of times the forecast thunderstorms are tracking well to the
>> north or south.
>
> That's right, I don't check it. I look at the windsock on our hangar, and
> take a moment to see what the wind is doing at our field (which also
> doesn't have a WX broadcast). If I'm planning an XC flight I'll look at
> the XCSkies wind forecasts for the times of the flight, and of course keep
> an eye on large scale changes (approaching storms, etc). But at takeoff?
> I look out the window to see if there is a lull or gust or thermal, and
> plan accordingly.
>
> But I don't obsess about a few knots, and am happy taking off or landing a
> bit downwind if it makes the operations smoother or safer (common to land
> the towplanes downwind to save turnaround time).
>
> It's more the quality (gusty or variable) vs the quantity (raw velocity) of
> the wind that I care about. For example, I know with a westerly crosswind
> there will be turbulence once we get out of the wind shadow of the hangar.
> That is not going to be in any automated report ;^).
>
> But hey - nothing wrong with using every tool at your disposal. My cockpit
> is testament to that (lots of gizmos)!
>
> And I must admit that I fly mostly from either desert or flatland sites,
> which may not have the conditions you have to cope with. So please don't
> take my comments as being derogatory! Just having a little fun on
> RAS...waiting for the snow to start falling again...
>
> Cheers!
>
> Kirk 66
>

With the personal exception of the last paragraph and a half, "What kirk said."

For years I flew without any electrical system, eventually upgrading to a
rubber duckie handheld, and, ~96+% of my soaring time launched from
intermountain western U.S. airstrips (as in, affected Very Much by upwind
mountainous terrain, airfield-based upwind obstructions, "the usual" western
gusts, etc.).

Other than keeping a beady eye on temperature trends in summer, and my usual
"concerned like a shepherd in winter" eye on weather in general, I can't
recall ever actually checking a forecast *for soaring go/no-go
decisions*...since experience had led me to conclude "personal eyeball" was
more soaring-worthy accurate than anything from the NWS. That's not a knock on
the NWS, rather a nod to trusting one's own assessment of reality, which by
its very nature has a finer resolution/granularity - and, out here, in my
experience, accuracy - than anything ever obtainable from the NWS.

Point being, never let personal anality (of which some have accused me)
overrule common sense, personal assessment and judgment.

Bob W.

P.S. Tomorrow's predicted high here is 4F (and decreasing); I didn't need that
NWS tidbit to've long ago concluded no thermals, no wave and no soaring in
these parts tomorrow!

[son_of_flubber]

On Monday, February 3, 2014 10:35:26 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Couldn't you could hold the wind-o-meter out the window in the pattern to
>
> gauge the winds?

Ha. I'd rather use a deliberate stall to find the most important number on my ASI.

[kirk.stant]

On Wednesday, February 5, 2014 8:43:36 AM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:

> Ha. I'd rather use a deliberate stall to find the most important number on my ASI.

Of course, you realize that the ASI indication of stall speed is pretty much useless.

Quick, you are in the pattern, heavy passenger in the back seat, you overshoot the turn to final so crank it over to 50 degrees of bank and pull it around (with your spoilers still out a bit) - what's your indicated stall speed!

If we had a nice little AOA indicator, it would be trivial - but we usually don't, so relying on airspeed is at best a poor approximation of how close to a stall you are. Better be up on all those other indications of a stall that Tom Knauff is always harping about!

There are times the airspeed indicator is pretty useless as a control instrument. While thermalling, for example; or while landing (in the flare, not the pattern). Do you know what speed you touchdown at? I have no idea what it is for any of the planes or gliders I fly - who looks at the airspeed indicator in the flare? What we really need is a groundspeed indicator so we can get a feel for how far it will take to stop!

Come on spring!

Kirk
66

[Dan Marotta]

What they all said. I looked out the window and, since it's snowing and I
can't see the mountains to the west, north, or east, decided that it's
probably snowing at the airport as well. But, since I'm the tow pilot du
jour, I called just to be sure. Yup. We're cancelled.

C'mon spring!

Getting worked up for a soaring camp in Salida in June. Gonna try to fly up
while the wives bring the trailers.

"Bob Whelan" > wrote in message
...
> On 2/4/2014 11:18 AM, kirk.stant wrote:
>> On Monday, February 3, 2014 6:23:50 PM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> So Kirk, you're saying that you don't check the automated weather
>>> broadcast wind numbers before you launch? (We don't have WX broadcast
>>> at
>>> my home airport.) I also like to check the weather radar before launch
>>> because lots of times the forecast thunderstorms are tracking well to
>>> the
>>> north or south.
>>
>> That's right, I don't check it. I look at the windsock on our hangar,
>> and
>> take a moment to see what the wind is doing at our field (which also
>> doesn't have a WX broadcast). If I'm planning an XC flight I'll look at
>> the XCSkies wind forecasts for the times of the flight, and of course
>> keep
>> an eye on large scale changes (approaching storms, etc). But at takeoff?
>> I look out the window to see if there is a lull or gust or thermal, and
>> plan accordingly.
>>
>> But I don't obsess about a few knots, and am happy taking off or landing
>> a
>> bit downwind if it makes the operations smoother or safer (common to land
>> the towplanes downwind to save turnaround time).
>>
>> It's more the quality (gusty or variable) vs the quantity (raw velocity)
>> of
>> the wind that I care about. For example, I know with a westerly crosswind
>> there will be turbulence once we get out of the wind shadow of the
>> hangar.
>> That is not going to be in any automated report ;^).
>>
>> But hey - nothing wrong with using every tool at your disposal. My
>> cockpit
>> is testament to that (lots of gizmos)!
>>
>> And I must admit that I fly mostly from either desert or flatland sites,
>> which may not have the conditions you have to cope with. So please don't
>> take my comments as being derogatory! Just having a little fun on
>> RAS...waiting for the snow to start falling again...
>>
>> Cheers!
>>
>> Kirk 66
>>
>
> With the personal exception of the last paragraph and a half, "What kirk
> said."
>
> For years I flew without any electrical system, eventually upgrading to a
> rubber duckie handheld, and, ~96+% of my soaring time launched from
> intermountain western U.S. airstrips (as in, affected Very Much by upwind
> mountainous terrain, airfield-based upwind obstructions, "the usual"
> western gusts, etc.).
>
> Other than keeping a beady eye on temperature trends in summer, and my
> usual "concerned like a shepherd in winter" eye on weather in general, I
> can't recall ever actually checking a forecast *for soaring go/no-go
> decisions*...since experience had led me to conclude "personal eyeball"
> was more soaring-worthy accurate than anything from the NWS. That's not a
> knock on the NWS, rather a nod to trusting one's own assessment of
> reality, which by its very nature has a finer resolution/granularity -
> and, out here, in my experience, accuracy - than anything ever obtainable
> from the NWS.
>
> Point being, never let personal anality (of which some have accused me)
> overrule common sense, personal assessment and judgment.
>
> Bob W.
>
> P.S. Tomorrow's predicted high here is 4F (and decreasing); I didn't need
> that NWS tidbit to've long ago concluded no thermals, no wave and no
> soaring in these parts tomorrow!

[WAVEGURU]

Damn hard to stall most gliders in a 50° bank... I think my 2-32 will do it tho, but I haven't tried it in a while. Sounds a little like practicing bleeding?

Boggs

[son_of_flubber]

On Wednesday, February 5, 2014 12:15:06 PM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:

> Of course, you realize that the ASI indication of stall speed is pretty much useless.

The observed ASI indication of a deliberate and gradually entered forward stall in calm air factors in ASI instrument error and CG effects. I take that number and add a safety factor based on AGL, wind, and level/banked flight to set my minimum acceptable AS.

The observed ASI at deliberate stall is going to be more useful/accurate than what the POH says. It is also a sanity check on CG calculations.
>
> Quick, you are in the pattern, heavy passenger in the back seat, you overshoot the turn to final so crank it over to 50 degrees of bank and pull it around (with your spoilers still out a bit) - what's your indicated stall speed!
>

Heavy passenger moves CG forward and increases stall speed.
Spoilers open increases stall speed.
50 degree bank increases stall speed 25-30%. (50% is rather steep for turn to final.)

So I agree that indicated stall speed is useless in the pattern, but setting pattern speed based on observed stall speed is smart. Let's say observed stall speed is 40 knots X 1.3 = 52 knots, so 60 knots would be prudent when entering turn to final. I would shed 5 knots of that on final before entering ground effect.

>
>
> If we had a nice little AOA indicator, it would be trivial - but we usually don't, so relying on airspeed is at best a poor approximation of how close to a stall you are. Better be up on all those other indications of a stall that Tom Knauff is always harping about!
>

Yes of course. It is also useful to be able to recognize adverse yaw without a yaw string. IMO CFIGs should take the front yaw string off the glider for at least one lesson (but keep the rear seat yaw string).
>
>
> There are times the airspeed indicator is pretty useless as a control >instrument. While thermalling, for example;

Please elaborate. I check my IAS before steepening a bank, for example.

> Do you know what speed you touchdown at?

In most cases, I actually touch down at stall speed. I guess that would be a bit slower than the stall speed observed at altitude because of the lower draw in ground effect?

[son_of_flubber]

On Wednesday, February 5, 2014 2:30:22 PM UTC-5, Waveguru wrote:
> Damn hard to stall most gliders in a 50° bank... I think my 2-32 will do it tho, but I haven't tried it in a while. Sounds a little like practicing bleeding?
>

There is not enough back stick/elevator to stall my glider in a steep bank (POH says so and I've tried it), but spiral dives are a real possibility.

[son_of_flubber]

On Wednesday, February 5, 2014 2:35:21 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 5, 2014 2:30:22 PM UTC-5, Waveguru wrote:
>
> > Damn hard to stall most gliders in a 50° bank... I think my 2-32 will do it tho, but I haven't tried it in a while. Sounds a little like practicing bleeding?
>

> There is not enough back stick/elevator to stall my glider in a steep bank (POH says so and I've tried it), but spiral dives are a real possibility.

It might actually be possible to stall my glider if I entered a steep bank from a close-to-stall speed. I've not tried that and I always check my speed before a hard bank.