FlyWIthCE FR300 vs LXNAV Nano for OLC and Silver/Gold badge flying

[Doug[_8_]]

What are the inexpensive devices for logging Silver and Gold badge flights, and how do they compare - costs / ease of use / reliability, etc ? I will be working on my Silver badge this season, using a rented glider, so I need an inexpensive, portable, and easy to use setup. It seems to me that the FR300 is priced much lower than the others, but there must be more to it than just price. Thanks.

Doug

[Tony[_5_]]

On Saturday, February 1, 2014 5:25:35 PM UTC-6, Doug wrote:
> What are the inexpensive devices for logging Silver and Gold badge flights, and how do they compare - costs / ease of use / reliability, etc ? I will be working on my Silver badge this season, using a rented glider, so I need an inexpensive, portable, and easy to use setup. It seems to me that the FR300 is priced much lower than the others, but there must be more to it than just price. Thanks.
>
>
>
> Doug

FR300 is not usable for Diamonds or National/Continental/World Records or Diplomas.

I have an old FR100, the Nano is much easier to download flights from. Just plug it in and it shows up like any other USB drive. You also might consider the Colibri II in your search for a portable easy to use logger.

[LongJourney]

On Saturday, February 1, 2014 5:25:35 PM UTC-6, Doug wrote:
> What are the inexpensive devices for logging Silver and Gold badge flights, and how do they compare - costs / ease of use / reliability, etc ? I will be working on my Silver badge this season, using a rented glider, so I need an inexpensive, portable, and easy to use setup. It seems to me that the FR300 is priced much lower than the others, but there must be more to it than just price. Thanks.
>
>
>
> Doug

Doug,

The FlyWithCE recorder is fine for silver and gold badges, as well as for logging OLC flights. It is easy to use and is very inexpensive, as far as loggers go. The flight logbook software has a few glitches that could be improved, but that won't affect your badge applications. I think it's a good way to go for beginning XC pilots.

Jeff

[Dan Marotta]

I've got a Replogle barograph and a camera with mount that I'll give you for
postage. They got me all of my diamonds so they must be lucky. You'll have
to have the barograph calibrated according to the rules. Do you think the
badge guy would accept a strip of film, a declaration sheet, and a barograph
trace?

Won't work for OLC, however...

"LongJourney" > wrote in message
...
On Saturday, February 1, 2014 5:25:35 PM UTC-6, Doug wrote:
> What are the inexpensive devices for logging Silver and Gold badge
> flights, and how do they compare - costs / ease of use / reliability, etc
> ? I will be working on my Silver badge this season, using a rented
> glider, so I need an inexpensive, portable, and easy to use setup. It
> seems to me that the FR300 is priced much lower than the others, but there
> must be more to it than just price. Thanks.
>
>
>
> Doug

Doug,

The FlyWithCE recorder is fine for silver and gold badges, as well as for
logging OLC flights. It is easy to use and is very inexpensive, as far as
loggers go. The flight logbook software has a few glitches that could be
improved, but that won't affect your badge applications. I think it's a good
way to go for beginning XC pilots.

Jeff

[C-FFKQ (42)]

Don't forget that the FR300 will require an extra 100m (328') of altitude margin for the height gains. It's a "position recorder" and uses GPS for altitude, hence the necessity of a margin.

The FR300 is cheap and simple; I bought three for my club to use in our badge attempts.

-John

[Bill T]

About three years ago, we were the only club to submit a badge claim with a Repolge barograph for that year.
I'm not sure SSA will accept anything but digital now.

Bill T

[waremark]

The 1% altitude difference rule normally requires a maximum altitude difference of 500m or about 1,650 feet for a 50 k silver distance flight. With a position recorder it becomes a maximum altitude loss of 400 m or 1,300 feet.

[Thermal]

On Sunday, February 2, 2014 7:10:14 PM UTC-6, Bill T wrote:
> About three years ago, we were the only club to submit a badge claim with a Repolge barograph for that year.
>
> I'm not sure SSA will accept anything but digital now.
>
>
>
> Bill T

SSA accepted my repolge barograph trace for my gold altitude last spring. so i'm pretty sure he still does.

[[email protected]]

On Monday, February 3, 2014 4:55:33 AM UTC-5, waremark wrote:
> The 1% altitude difference rule normally requires a maximum altitude difference of 500m or about 1,650 feet for a 50 k silver distance flight. With a position recorder it becomes a maximum altitude loss of 400 m or 1,300 feet.

I heard directly from the SSA about 20 minutes ago that the 100m of altitude "buffer" if you will, only applies to altitude heights.

You can fly your silver distance with one the height differential still cannot be greater than 500m.

Looks like I'm ordering mine shortly........

[waremark]

On Monday, 3 February 2014 23:40:39 UTC, wrote:
> On Monday, February 3, 2014 4:55:33 AM UTC-5, waremark wrote:
>
> > The 1% altitude difference rule normally requires a maximum altitude difference of 500m or about 1,650 feet for a 50 k silver distance flight. With a position recorder it becomes a maximum altitude loss of 400 m or 1,300 feet.
>
>
>
> I heard directly from the SSA about 20 minutes ago that the 100m of altitude "buffer" if you will, only applies to altitude heights.
>
>
>
> You can fly your silver distance with one the height differential still cannot be greater than 500m.
>
>
>
> Looks like I'm ordering mine shortly........

To be clear, I don't say you should not get one, so long as your eyes are open to the issues of the height buffer and the need for specific software for downloading. But if the SSA say the height buffer does not affect distance claims, that is certainly different from the way the same rules are applied in the UK. It is also illogical. From the BGA website:

"Badge Claims and Position Recorders 24th September 2012

From October 1st, approved GPS position recorders will be allowed for all silver and gold badge legs without the use of an additional barograph. However, where height differences are critical (height claims and claims involving the 1% rule) there will be a 100m penalty applied to the GPS height gain or loss when a position recorder is used without an independent barograph. For example, a silver height gain will need to show a GPS height gain of 1100meters and a silver distance of, say, 60km will need to show a height loss of less than 500m: ((60k*1%)-100)."

You should also consider the implications for any future competition flying.. Again, the height buffer issue may come into play in relation to start and finish heights and penalty zones.

An LX Nav Nano III would clearly be a better device, but for many times the price. A 2nd hand IGC logger might be closer in price, but might be less convenient, for example needing external power or an external aerial.

[Dave Springford]

for example:

http://glidersource.com/cgi-bin/post.cgi?id=442

Used Volkslogger for $100 !

[[email protected]]

On Monday, February 3, 2014 6:29:26 PM UTC-6, waremark wrote:
> On Monday, 3 February 2014 23:40:39 UTC, wrote:
>
> > On Monday, February 3, 2014 4:55:33 AM UTC-5, waremark wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > The 1% altitude difference rule normally requires a maximum altitude difference of 500m or about 1,650 feet for a 50 k silver distance flight. With a position recorder it becomes a maximum altitude loss of 400 m or 1,300 feet.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I heard directly from the SSA about 20 minutes ago that the 100m of altitude "buffer" if you will, only applies to altitude heights.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > You can fly your silver distance with one the height differential still cannot be greater than 500m.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Looks like I'm ordering mine shortly........
>
>
>
> To be clear, I don't say you should not get one, so long as your eyes are open to the issues of the height buffer and the need for specific software for downloading. But if the SSA say the height buffer does not affect distance claims, that is certainly different from the way the same rules are applied in the UK. It is also illogical. From the BGA website:
>
>
>
> "Badge Claims and Position Recorders 24th September 2012
>
>
>
> From October 1st, approved GPS position recorders will be allowed for all silver and gold badge legs without the use of an additional barograph. However, where height differences are critical (height claims and claims involving the 1% rule) there will be a 100m penalty applied to the GPS height gain or loss when a position recorder is used without an independent barograph. For example, a silver height gain will need to show a GPS height gain of 1100meters and a silver distance of, say, 60km will need to show a height loss of less than 500m: ((60k*1%)-100)."
>
>
>
> You should also consider the implications for any future competition flying. Again, the height buffer issue may come into play in relation to start and finish heights and penalty zones.
>
>
>
> An LX Nav Nano III would clearly be a better device, but for many times the price. A 2nd hand IGC logger might be closer in price, but might be less convenient, for example needing external power or an external aerial.


The 100m buffer is not needed with the LXNAV Nano device - is that correct ? Does that device need periodic calibration or anything like that ?

Doug

[waremark]

On Tuesday, 4 February 2014 18:11:00 UTC, wrote:
> On Monday, February 3, 2014 6:29:26 PM UTC-6, waremark wrote:
>
> > On Monday, 3 February 2014 23:40:39 UTC, wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > On Monday, February 3, 2014 4:55:33 AM UTC-5, waremark wrote:
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > The 1% altitude difference rule normally requires a maximum altitude difference of 500m or about 1,650 feet for a 50 k silver distance flight. With a position recorder it becomes a maximum altitude loss of 400 m or 1,300 feet.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > I heard directly from the SSA about 20 minutes ago that the 100m of altitude "buffer" if you will, only applies to altitude heights.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > You can fly your silver distance with one the height differential still cannot be greater than 500m.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Looks like I'm ordering mine shortly........
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > To be clear, I don't say you should not get one, so long as your eyes are open to the issues of the height buffer and the need for specific software for downloading. But if the SSA say the height buffer does not affect distance claims, that is certainly different from the way the same rules are applied in the UK. It is also illogical. From the BGA website:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > "Badge Claims and Position Recorders 24th September 2012
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > From October 1st, approved GPS position recorders will be allowed for all silver and gold badge legs without the use of an additional barograph. However, where height differences are critical (height claims and claims involving the 1% rule) there will be a 100m penalty applied to the GPS height gain or loss when a position recorder is used without an independent barograph. For example, a silver height gain will need to show a GPS height gain of 1100meters and a silver distance of, say, 60km will need to show a height loss of less than 500m: ((60k*1%)-100)."
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > You should also consider the implications for any future competition flying. Again, the height buffer issue may come into play in relation to start and finish heights and penalty zones.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > An LX Nav Nano III would clearly be a better device, but for many times the price. A 2nd hand IGC logger might be closer in price, but might be less convenient, for example needing external power or an external aerial.
>
>
>
>
>
> The 100m buffer is not needed with the LXNAV Nano device - is that correct ? Does that device need periodic calibration or anything like that ?
>
>
>
> Doug

GNSS Flight Recorders since a recent change require a calibration check every five years. I hope Paul Remde will not mind me quoting from his excellent Cumulus Soaring website:

"IGC Calibration Requirement Frequency Change
In the past, IGC rules required GPS flight recorders to be calibrated every 2 years. In October of 2013 the IGC changed the rule - requiring GPS flight recorders to be calibrated every 5 years. It does not matter whether your last calibration was done before or after October 2013. To use it for badge or record verification it must have been calibrated within 5 years. For some badges and records it is acceptable to get the calibration done after flight (within 60 days?). However, some national and world altitude records require calibration both before (within 5 years) and after (within 30 days?) the flight. The new 5 year fule is in section 4.4.4 in the 2013 edition of the Sporting Code, Section 3."

[Dale Watkins]

How does a Nano get re-calibrated?

Zen

[waremark]

On Wednesday, 5 February 2014 01:02:48 UTC, Dale Watkins wrote:
> How does a Nano get re-calibrated?
>
>
>
> Zen

It does not get recalibrated electronically. The calibration is checked, and a calibration chart is produced, from which the altitude figures reported in the IGC file are adjusted if appropriate when making a badge claim. So far as I can remember the calibration chart is only required if the relevant height gain/loss is within certain limits of what is required for a successful badge claim (or record or competition flight) - and the calibration check can take place retrospectively after the relevant flight if there has not been one within the previous 5 years. Perhaps someone more up to date than me can confirm with more specific details.

[Garret Willat]

If you are looking for an electronic logbook, silver badge, OLC, FlyWithCE is the best option. For the price it is hard to beat.

If you are trying to claim your world record, get on the US Soaring Team, Diamond badge. Then you will need to upgrade loggers to the Nano.

Garret Willat
Wings and Wheels

[[email protected]]

On Tuesday, February 4, 2014 12:11:00 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> On Monday, February 3, 2014 6:29:26 PM UTC-6, waremark wrote:
>
> > On Monday, 3 February 2014 23:40:39 UTC, wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > On Monday, February 3, 2014 4:55:33 AM UTC-5, waremark wrote:
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > The 1% altitude difference rule normally requires a maximum altitude difference of 500m or about 1,650 feet for a 50 k silver distance flight. With a position recorder it becomes a maximum altitude loss of 400 m or 1,300 feet.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > I heard directly from the SSA about 20 minutes ago that the 100m of altitude "buffer" if you will, only applies to altitude heights.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > You can fly your silver distance with one the height differential still cannot be greater than 500m.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Looks like I'm ordering mine shortly........
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > To be clear, I don't say you should not get one, so long as your eyes are open to the issues of the height buffer and the need for specific software for downloading. But if the SSA say the height buffer does not affect distance claims, that is certainly different from the way the same rules are applied in the UK. It is also illogical. From the BGA website:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > "Badge Claims and Position Recorders 24th September 2012
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > From October 1st, approved GPS position recorders will be allowed for all silver and gold badge legs without the use of an additional barograph. However, where height differences are critical (height claims and claims involving the 1% rule) there will be a 100m penalty applied to the GPS height gain or loss when a position recorder is used without an independent barograph. For example, a silver height gain will need to show a GPS height gain of 1100meters and a silver distance of, say, 60km will need to show a height loss of less than 500m: ((60k*1%)-100)."
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > You should also consider the implications for any future competition flying. Again, the height buffer issue may come into play in relation to start and finish heights and penalty zones.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > An LX Nav Nano III would clearly be a better device, but for many times the price. A 2nd hand IGC logger might be closer in price, but might be less convenient, for example needing external power or an external aerial.
>
>
>
>
>
> The 100m buffer is not needed with the LXNAV Nano device - is that correct ? Does that device need periodic calibration or anything like that ?
>
>
>
> Doug

OK, here are some sample calculations for my Silver distance. Calculating a trip 34 miles to an airport at 625 msl - out and land - the 1% rule works out like this.

34 x 5280 = 179,520 x .01 = 1795.2 + 625 = 2420.2 msl highest tow

so that would be with the Nano. With the FlyWithCE, that highest tow gets knocked down to 2092.2 msl. Margin is a bit tighter - I'm usually heading for the IP at 2000 msl. Should that be a consideration ? Or should I be tasking a longer destination or an out and back so that my tow release can be higher ?

Doug

[[email protected]]

On Wednesday, February 26, 2014 9:08:06 PM UTC-5, wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 4, 2014 12:11:00 PM UTC-6, wrote:
>
> > On Monday, February 3, 2014 6:29:26 PM UTC-6, waremark wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > On Monday, 3 February 2014 23:40:39 UTC, wrote:
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > On Monday, February 3, 2014 4:55:33 AM UTC-5, waremark wrote:
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > > The 1% altitude difference rule normally requires a maximum altitude difference of 500m or about 1,650 feet for a 50 k silver distance flight. With a position recorder it becomes a maximum altitude loss of 400 m or 1,300 feet.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > I heard directly from the SSA about 20 minutes ago that the 100m of altitude "buffer" if you will, only applies to altitude heights.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > You can fly your silver distance with one the height differential still cannot be greater than 500m.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > > Looks like I'm ordering mine shortly........
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > To be clear, I don't say you should not get one, so long as your eyes are open to the issues of the height buffer and the need for specific software for downloading. But if the SSA say the height buffer does not affect distance claims, that is certainly different from the way the same rules are applied in the UK. It is also illogical. From the BGA website:
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > "Badge Claims and Position Recorders 24th September 2012
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > From October 1st, approved GPS position recorders will be allowed for all silver and gold badge legs without the use of an additional barograph. However, where height differences are critical (height claims and claims involving the 1% rule) there will be a 100m penalty applied to the GPS height gain or loss when a position recorder is used without an independent barograph. For example, a silver height gain will need to show a GPS height gain of 1100meters and a silver distance of, say, 60km will need to show a height loss of less than 500m: ((60k*1%)-100)."
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > You should also consider the implications for any future competition flying. Again, the height buffer issue may come into play in relation to start and finish heights and penalty zones.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > An LX Nav Nano III would clearly be a better device, but for many times the price. A 2nd hand IGC logger might be closer in price, but might be less convenient, for example needing external power or an external aerial.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > The 100m buffer is not needed with the LXNAV Nano device - is that correct ? Does that device need periodic calibration or anything like that ?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Doug
>
>
>
> OK, here are some sample calculations for my Silver distance. Calculating a trip 34 miles to an airport at 625 msl - out and land - the 1% rule works out like this.
>
>
>
> 34 x 5280 = 179,520 x .01 = 1795.2 + 625 = 2420.2 msl highest tow
>
>
>
> so that would be with the Nano. With the FlyWithCE, that highest tow gets knocked down to 2092.2 msl. Margin is a bit tighter - I'm usually heading for the IP at 2000 msl. Should that be a consideration ? Or should I be tasking a longer destination or an out and back so that my tow release can be higher ?
>
>
>
> Doug

If you're using a GPS recorder of some kind (IGC approved or just an
approved position recorder), go ahead and plan on making the round trip.
The 1% rule will apply to however far you wind up going. E.g. you make it
to the turnpoint, and land out halfway back. You flew 34+17=51 miles.
Now 51 x 5280 x 0.01 = 2693 feet for the maximum drop to your landing
position.

Landing at the target only makes sense if you are just using a barograph
or if there's some special prize you will collect by landing there.
I did both of those on my Silver distance flight!

Matt

[Bill T]

Nano offers the best option, personal opinion, for someone flying different aircraft. Self contained, small package great battery life. Set it and forget it.
Colibri II has great features and displays, but battery does not last long as long, it has displays to drive.

Nano has self contained software for setting a task, but works great with task planning software and uploading the task to the Nano and downloading the results.
Without the software, the Nano looks and works like a flash drive for retrieving the data file. (it has a micro SD card that holds everything)

BillT

[Cookie]

Over the years, the "rules" for the silver distance have "evolved". Now it is by far the most complicated badge task, with many options of how it can be done successfully.

Unless you are a "purist" and use a baragraph, and release from tow less than 1% above the landing site...

Using a flight recorder, you can tow as high as you want...(or is it still 3280' limit on tow?) you just then have to finish appropriately high regarding the 1% rule.

So...starting "high enough" ensures that you can contact a good thermal or two before you set out on your task....you're gonna do the silver on a decent thermal day anyway... so it should be no trouble to find a thermal near the end of the task, to satisfy the 1% rule....(and to allow for the Fly with CE extra height needed)

Cookie

>
> so that would be with the Nano. With the FlyWithCE, that highest tow gets knocked down to 2092.2 msl. Margin is a bit tighter - I'm usually heading for the IP at 2000 msl. Should that be a consideration ? Or should I be tasking a longer destination or an out and back so that my tow release can be higher ?
>
>
>
> Doug

[Don Johnstone[_4_]]

At 02:08 27 February 2014, wrote:

>OK, here are some sample calculations for my Silver distance. Calculating
>a=
> trip 34 miles to an airport at 625 msl - out and land - the 1% rule
works
>=
>out like this.
>
>34 x 5280 =3D 179,520 x .01 =3D 1795.2 + 625 =3D 2420.2 msl highest
tow=20
>
>so that would be with the Nano. With the FlyWithCE, that highest tow
gets
>=
>knocked down to 2092.2 msl. Margin is a bit tighter - I'm usually
heading
>=
>for the IP at 2000 msl. Should that be a consideration ? Or should I be
>t=
>asking a longer destination or an out and back so that my tow release can
>b=
>e higher ?
>
>Doug

You can take a tow to whatever height you like. Your start height is the
lowest point after release and before the commencement of the task. If you
take a high tow you just have to get a low point before starting

[C-FFKQ (42)]

On Wednesday, 26 February 2014 21:08:06 UTC-5, wrote:
>
> so that would be with the Nano. With the FlyWithCE, that highest tow gets knocked down to 2092.2 msl. Margin is a bit tighter - I'm usually heading for the IP at 2000 msl. Should that be a consideration ? Or should I be tasking a longer destination or an out and back so that my tow release can be higher ?
>

Well, you could just decide not to submit the FlyWithCE trace at all ! If you're planning on landing at the destination, release at the appropriate height to do the flight and get a tow-pilot release signature on the claim form. Given a certified release height and a known landing point distance, you'd be fine without submitting the trace.

- John

[Cookie]

You actually don't even have to do that. You can tow high, start high...only then you have to finish high.

Cookie


>
>
> You can take a tow to whatever height you like. Your start height is the
>
> lowest point after release and before the commencement of the task. If you
>
> take a high tow you just have to get a low point before starting

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, February 1, 2014 6:25:35 PM UTC-5, Doug wrote:
> What are the inexpensive devices for logging Silver and Gold badge flights, and how do they compare - costs / ease of use / reliability, etc ? I will be working on my Silver badge this season, using a rented glider, so I need an inexpensive, portable, and easy to use setup. It seems to me that the FR300 is priced much lower than the others, but there must be more to it than just price. Thanks.
>
>
>
> Doug

I used a flywithCE to log a glider flight where the attempt was to stay local and just reach the silver altitude of 3281'. I was successful with the altitude. I had an observer and filled out all the paperwork prior to the flight. I later found out that I can't use my flywithCE for the silver alt because I didn't declare this attempt using the logbook software (that's not user friendly) prior to going to the airport. I declare that the flywithCE is a waste and that I should have taken that $130 and applied it toward a real flight logger. I turned the thing on and it recorded my flight which doesn't count because I didn't declare it with software. How the heck to you declare on any software that you're going to go out and fly 5 hours or go out and climb 3281' after tow? The badge program is really confusing and I have yet to find anyone who has a good knowledge base. The most challenging part of soaring shouldn't be the mazes created by the bureaucracy to prove you did something. I can see why there is rarely talk about badges in our club. I think a lot of glider pilots have lost interest due to the complications and expense to prove something you did so you can get pin to stick in your wife's jewelry box. Does anyone want a good deal on a flywithCE?

[darrylr]

On Sunday, April 13, 2014 6:43:32 PM UTC-7, wrote:
> On Saturday, February 1, 2014 6:25:35 PM UTC-5, Doug wrote:
>
> > What are the inexpensive devices for logging Silver and Gold badge flights, and how do they compare - costs / ease of use / reliability, etc ? I will be working on my Silver badge this season, using a rented glider, so I need an inexpensive, portable, and easy to use setup. It seems to me that the FR300 is priced much lower than the others, but there must be more to it than just price. Thanks.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Doug
>
>
>
> I used a flywithCE to log a glider flight where the attempt was to stay local and just reach the silver altitude of 3281'. I was successful with the altitude. I had an observer and filled out all the paperwork prior to the flight. I later found out that I can't use my flywithCE for the silver alt because I didn't declare this attempt using the logbook software (that's not user friendly) prior to going to the airport. I declare that the flywithCE is a waste and that I should have taken that $130 and applied it toward a real flight logger. I turned the thing on and it recorded my flight which doesn't count because I didn't declare it with software. How the heck to you declare on any software that you're going to go out and fly 5 hours or go out and climb 3281' after tow? The badge program is really confusing and I have yet to find anyone who has a good knowledge base. The most challenging part of soaring shouldn't be the mazes created by the bureaucracy to prove you did something. I can see why there is rarely talk about badges in our club. I think a lot of glider pilots have lost interest due to the complications and expense to prove something you did so you can get pin to stick in your wife's jewelry box. Does anyone want a good deal on a flywithCE?

Unfortunately almost everything you wrote make no sense, and with that level of confusion you are not likely to get anywhere. So stop, take a deep breath and start over with understanding the rules. Read and understanding the sporting code yourself, and the approval document for whatever recording device you are using. Don't waste time with someone else's summary etc.--read and understand the actual FAI IGC SC3 sporting code and Annex C (Pilot and OO Guide) and the approval document for your position/flight recorder.

I'm not sure who is helping you understand what went wrong with your past silver altitude claim but you still seem to have a jumbled understanding here. Did you submit a claim and it was rejected? The explanations back from the SSA are normally very helpful, are you sure you are reading it correctly?

For example ... there is no declaration required for any altitude badge flight. If somebody is telling you there is, ask them the exact rule section number that requires this for an altitude flight. I'm suspecting you might mean that the glider or pilot info part of the declaration in the IGC file was incorrect? I'm expecting with the right OO actions and explanation that the SSA would ignore that--it is clearly the IGC's intent that errors like that even if a declaration is required do not unnecessarily result in the denial of award of a silver or gold flight performance (e.g. SC3 Annex C 6.5). And since no declaration is required for an altitude gain I'm not sure why there would be a problem here. So who thought there was a declaration required? And if basic info in an electronic declaration was wrong when your OO explained that to the SSA what exactly happened?

Again as has been advised here many times, *if* a declaration is required (and its not for your altitude flight) most pilots are much better off forgetting the electronic declaration and making a paper declaration that is more recent than any electronic one and that paper declaration will override everything (SC3 Annex C describes using a paper declaration to override electronic ones). I'm also missing how having a full ICG approved flight recorder would change any declaration related things here (but yes they are nicer for other reasons).

To the best of my knowledge the SSA has never approved the FlyWIthCE for altitude gain purposes (and based on my undemanding of that device, that is for very good reasons). A quick search and I think the current approval document is http://www.ssa.org/files/member/SSA_PR_App_FlyWithCE%20%283%29.pdf. If that is not it then find the approval document that applies to your device. The approval document read in conjunction with SC3 defines the rules you have to follow. So how were you hoping to demonstrate any altitude gain? Were you also flying with a separate barograph?

And even if your GPS position recorder was approved for use for altitude gains then you need to include a 100m margin must be added (SC3 A7).

You have to read and undertand the rules. Print them out and spend a few hours reading them, it helps to have the definitions part in front of you as you read every rule and carefully look up the precise meaning of each term, don't just assume what anything mean. Read through the whole thing a few times and you should have an "a-ha moment" where it should become clear. If you can't get there, find help or give up now. The random walk approach of just taking flights and hoping things will work out often ends in tears. Likewise asking random idiots at the gliderport to be your OO also often ends in tears, it is really worth finding somebody who knows what they are doing, ask around locally to find out who has their diamonds or above (or even better some records as well) and see if they can be your OO or help you understand the rules. All these finicky rules etc. *are* a part of these things, and they are really not that bad once you 'get' how things work. if you don't want to deal with that minor hassle them then by all means go do somethign else in the glider for fun. Chasing badges is often a neat learning challenge and worth spending the effort on, but lots of folks get a huge amount out of this sport without doing them.

Darryl

[Cookie]

As I read the "rules" (see below) the Fly with CE IS approved for all phases of silver and gold badge flights. The altitude requires a 100 meter "extra margin".

It is my understanding that a "declaration" would only be required for distance badge flights. Altitude or duration flights do not require a "formal" declaration. BUT with flight recorders, you do have to have certain information programmed in...such as pilots name...glider info etc...

We have two Fly with CE units which we use at our commercial operation....we like them very much...they are well worth the (low) cost. The clubs I am in have purchased Cloibri, which also work great, but the cost is huge.

Erik Mann has worked very hard over the years to get "affordable" GPS units approved for badge and record flights.

The $130 Fly with CE is far more sophisticated than the old baragraph and camera set up we used to use back in the day....And if I remember correctly a Replogle baragraph cost around $650 back then...a Winter cost more!

Yeah, the "rules" for the silver badge flights seem to be overcomplicated.....in fact the silver badge is more complicated than the other badges....ALL of the required information is available with an Internet search...SSA web site etc. Lots of us have somehow struggled through and achieved the Silver badge, in spite of the paperwork!

Cookie





IGC Position Recorder PR -1- Approval Document 2013-6
Approval document for an IGC Position Recorder
Issuing Authority: Soaring Society of America (SSA)
Erik Mann, SSA FAI Badge and Record Chairman -
Date of effect: 01 June 2013
References:
A. FAI Sporting Code Section 3 (Gliders and Motor Gliders) (SC3)
Particularly: SC3 Appendix A to Chapter 4 on Position Recorders
B. Annex B to the Code (SC3B), Glossary items on Position Recorder and Validation,
and paras 1.7, 2.1.1.2, 2.2.2.
C. Annex C to the Code (SC3C), particularly para 6.1 and 6.2, also 1.1, 1.5, 3.3.
D. Specification for the IGC file format, Appendix 1 to the
Technical Specification for IGC-approved Flight Recorders
1.1 This document authorises the use of the GPS recording device described in para 2 for use as an
IGC Position Recorder (PR) for flights under the jurisdiction of the above NAC under the rules and
procedures for PRs in the FAI Sporting Code Section 3 (Gliding), in particular under References A-D
..
1.2 Silver and Gold Flights. At the date of publication of this document, Reference A allows IGC
Position Recorders to be used for flights for Silver and Gold IGC Badges. For other badge, diploma
and record flights, an IGC-approved Flight Recorder must be used, and can also be used for Silver and
Gold flights.
1.3. Scope. This document covers only the PR recording function and the data in the IGC-format file
that is downloaded from it (Reference D and 3.3 below). Other functions in the PR and other modules
that can be connected, are not the responsibility of the NAC or IGC.
Type of IGC Position Recorder
2.1. Name of Position Recorder: flyWithCE Flight Recorder FR300
Manufacturer: Name: flyWithCE
Address: Ulica Lojzeta Hrovata 9, 4000 Kranj, Slovenia
Tel/Fax: email: web: www.flywithce.com
Contact name(s): Uroš Podlogar s.p
2.3. Details of the PR.
IGC Position Recorder PR -2- Approval Document 2013-6
3. Compliance with the IGC Sporting Code. This type of IGC Position Recorder complies with the
Sporting Code requirements for Position Recorders (References A-D above) as follows.
3.1. The WGS84 ellipsoid Earth Model is used for all fixes in the IGC file (SC3 Chapter 4 para A2 refers).
3.2. All fixes in IGC files downloaded from this Recorder are all obtained from real-time GPS data, and no
predicted fixes are recorded (SC3 Chapter 4 para A3 requirement). If signal is lost, the device does not
project position or otherwise use any predictive model.
3.3. The downloaded IGC file can be electronically validated at any time to ensure that the file is identical to
when it was initially downloaded (SC3 Chapter 4 para A6 requirement).
3.3.1 Downloading. IGC files are downloaded directly from the FR via USB; the device is recognized as USB
Mass Storage media.
3.3.2 The file validation program - to be used with such downloaded IGC files:
VALI-FWC.EXE and associated DLL are available from the manufacturer’s download page:
www.flywithce.com/download.html
3.4. Recording of Altitude. References: SC3 Chapter 4 para A7, Annex C to SC3 para 6.2c, Reference D.
3.4.1 Altitude data from this IGC PR - for accurate measurement is from figures in the IGC file for GPS altitude
above the WGS84 Ellipsoid, applying the margin over Pressure Altitude requirements as specified in the Sporting
Code (Reference A), currently 100 metres due to the different characteristics of GPS and Pressure Altitudes.
3.4.2 The IGC file – Field for Pressure Altitude. In IGC files from this type of Position Recorder, the field for
Pressure Altitude is recorded as Zero, in accordance with SC3C para 6.2 and Reference D,
4. Engine Recording. This PR is not able to detect the operation of a Means of Propulsion (MoP). For
gliders with a MoP, SC3 4.5.4 and SC3C 12.1 apply, and one of the following must be carried out:
4.1. Carry a separate device that records MoP use and is acceptable to the NAC, or:
4.2. Seal the MoP is such a way that the Official Observer can detect if it has been operated, or:
4.3. Disable the MoP prior to flight to the satisfaction of the Official Observer and NAC.
5. Mounting in the Glider. This Position Recorder may be mounted anywhere in the glider, and the
Official Observer must be able to show that it was in the glider for the flight concerned, and that the IGC
file used to assess the flight came from it.
6. Authority. This approval document is issued by The Soaring Society of America (SSA).
Signature Erik H Mann
Name: Erik H. Mann
Position in NAC: Chairman, SSA FAI Badge and Record Committee
Email address:
Any queries or comments about this document should be sent to the above, with a copy to the
Chairman of the IGC GFA Committee (currently: ).
-------------------------------------------

[[email protected]]

I am a proponent of badge flying A,B,C, Bronze, Silver etc. They require forethought, planning and execution. All activities that require more skill, both organizational and aerodynamic than just boring holes in the airport sky. Frustration arises when pilots happen upon a flight that otherwise would qualify for a badge or badge leg yet the "planning" part of the equation was skipped. I understand the desire to have the particular flight memorialized with a badge issuance by the SSA. However, there will be other prime days in the future and this time make sure "all" the bases are covered.

The altitude "declaration" only references the IGC file header. You must have your personal and aircraft information in the header so the badge dude can positively identify your flight. This is a very basic requirement yet even last year a very accomplished pilot complained loudly because his 300k flight was not recognized due to a mistaken use of competition number instead of registration number in the header.

Please don't give up on badge flying because of a perceived inflexibility of the rules. Just take a moment to read the rules and prepare accordingly. The badge will be with you for a lifetime. The accomplishment is what makes it special. If the badge dude sent one hundred silver badges to your club to be handed out at the next meeting to anyone who "said" they had the proper altitude gain there would be no special meaning to the accomplishment. Stick with it and you will be rewarded with a badge in the mail. Wear your badge proudly so others will strive for the same.

Lane
XF

[Dan Daly[_2_]]

Sporting Code 3, 2014, 3.4.a:
a. No declaration is required for a duration or gain of height badge flights that use only a PR or a stand-alone barograph for evidence (SC3-1.4.2), or for a straight distance flight so long as no pre-declared start or finish point is used (SC3-1.4.3).

If the header is incorrect, club records and OO proving which glider and pilot launched when should suffice...

Sporting Code 3, 2014, para 6.5:
Pilot and glider data Pilot and glider data stored in a PR or FR is not definitive until confirmed by the OO from independent evidence taken at take-off and landing. When any shared FR is used, pilot and glider data
may be from a previous flight, so care must be taken to see that the pilot and glider data is accurate; however, an error may be corrected by the OO for Silver and Gold badge claims.

Given this, have your OO correct the data, and submit... The sporting code is your friend.

2D

[Darryl Ramm]

Cookie > wrote:
> As I read the "rules" (see below) the Fly with CE IS approved for all
> phases of silver and gold badge flights. The altitude requires a 100 meter "extra margin".
>

Thanks for that, that approval is for the FR300 so it depends on the exact
position recorder being discussed for that silver altitude flight. But the
most important point is up to the pilot (and OO) to read and understand the
approval document for a position recorder (or flight recorder) and read
them in conjunction with the sporting code and annexes.

> It is my understanding that a "declaration" would only be required for
> distance badge flights. Altitude or duration flights do not require a
> "formal" declaration. BUT with flight recorders, you do have to have
> certain information programmed in...such as pilots name...glider info etc...

As multiple people are pointing out, yes you do not need a declaration for
an altitude flight, and if basic things like pilot name etc. are wrong in
the IGC file this is usually handled by enclosing a note from the OO. And
if this flight was actually submitted to the SSA I would have expected a
nice clear explanation of problems. So I am totally at a loss what the
problem in the silver altitude flight was.

/* snip */

Darryl

[Papa3[_2_]]

Having spent over 10 years on the SSA's Badge and Record Committee including several years as the chairman, I've seen many frustrated pilots over the years. Having recently "retired" from that program, I can speak here as an unofficial commentator. In reality, there's usually plenty of blame to be spread around.

On the one hand, you have people who have some very vague idea of various performances who show up and do just about everything "wrong" from a procedures perspective. Sometimes, they get lucky, and they've done just enough "right" to skate by. I can't tell you how many times we got files (even under the "supervision" of supposedly experienced OOs) that amounted to "I just made a really cool flight. Here's the IGC file. Now tell me what I've won". The OO is primarily responsible for making sure you follow procedures and that your performance(s) meet the requirements.

On the other hand, we have a Sporting Code with several annexes and annexes to the annexes in the form of individual FR approval documents. As an outgrowth of that, we have people trying (and often failing) to write simplified summaries. I've read the entire SC cover-to-cover literally dozens of times, yet I still find loopholes and uncovered scenarios. So, while a close read is important, it's still not a guarantee that even a conscientious pilot won't get caught up.

The best advice I can give is: 1) put a simple plan together well before you intend to start doing badges. For instance, if your goal is to get a silver badge, work to understand just that portion of the SC and build a few flight options to meet those requirements 2) find a "real" OO who understands the SC. They don't have to know how to quote it chapter-and-verse (in fact, I'd be very scared of anyone who could). They just need to be able to find the relevant sections in the SC and check your plan. And, if such a person isn't around locally, ask for help from the Badge Guy (Rollin Hasness). Even if he doesn't have time to completely spoon feed you, he can usually help you find someone locally. As a last resort, you can try to find someone on this forum who will work with you offline. Just be sure you hook up with someone who is a real expert and not just R.A.S. pundit.

Erik Mann (P3)

On Monday, April 14, 2014 7:42:32 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> I am a proponent of badge flying A,B,C, Bronze, Silver etc. They require forethought, planning and execution. All activities that require more skill, both organizational and aerodynamic than just boring holes in the airport sky. Frustration arises when pilots happen upon a flight that otherwise would qualify for a badge or badge leg yet the "planning" part of the equation was skipped. I understand the desire to have the particular flight memorialized with a badge issuance by the SSA. However, there will be other prime days in the future and this time make sure "all" the bases are covered.
>

[Eric]

On Sun, 13 Apr 2014 18:43:32 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

>On Saturday, February 1, 2014 6:25:35 PM UTC-5, Doug wrote:
>> What are the inexpensive devices for logging Silver and Gold badge flights, and how do they compare - costs / ease of use / reliability, etc ? I will be working on my Silver badge this season, using a rented glider, so I need an inexpensive, portable, and easy to use setup. It seems to me that the FR300 is priced much lower than the others, but there must be more to it than just price. Thanks.
>>
>>
>>
>> Doug
>
>I used a flywithCE to log a glider flight where the attempt was to stay local and just reach the silver altitude of 3281'. I was successful with the altitude. I had an observer and filled out all the paperwork prior to the flight. I later found out that I can't use my flywithCE for the silver alt because I didn't declare this attempt using the logbook software (that's not user friendly) prior to going to the airport. I declare that the flywithCE is a waste and that I should have taken that $130 and applied it toward a real flight logger. I turned the thing on and it recorded my flight which doesn't count because I didn't declare it with software. How the heck to you declare on any software that you're going to go out and fly 5 hours or go out and climb 3281' after tow? The badge program is really confusing and I have yet to find anyone who has a good knowledge base. The most challenging part of soaring shouldn't be the mazes created by the bureaucracy to prove you did
>something. I can see why there is rarely talk about badges in our club. I think a lot of glider pilots have lost interest due to the complications and expense to prove something you did so you can get pin to stick in your wife's jewelry box. Does anyone want a good deal on a flywithCE?


Sporting code gliders. 1.4.2 Duration, gain of height and absolute
altitude performances
A DECLARATION is not required for duration and gain of height badge
flights that use only
a POSITION RECORDER (per the Chapter 4 Appendix) or a stand-alone
BAROGRAPH for
evidence. The SOARING PERFORMANCE for an absolute altitude record must
be preceded
by a gain of height of at least 5000 metres.

Do you have different rules in US from the reat of the world?