flight training - 100nm night flight requirement

[Jonathan]

Hi all,
I've been a long time lurker in these NGs, but until now I havent had any
great items to ask or discuss. But I know the how much knowledge is in
these groups, so here goes...

A friend of mine is going for his Private. one of the requirements (as I
fondly recall from my own training) is a Night Cross country flight greater
than 100nm.

Now, from the definitions, I see a cross-country flight "includes a point
of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50
nautical miles from the original point of departure."

This friend went for a night flight from ap "A" to ap "B", 61nm away.
Landed (stop and go?) and returned to ap "A". Total distance is 122nm

So, the question to the group is, does this satisfy the requirement of
61.109(a)(2)(i) "One cross-country flight of over 100 nautical miles total
distance"?? (his instructor says yes, mine said no)

What do you all think?

Thanks in advance for your help.
Jonathan
(ASEL, IA)

(ps. go easy on me, Steven, it's my first time ;-) )

[G.R. Patterson III]

Jonathan wrote:
>
> What do you all think?

Yes. It's clearly a cross-country flight and clearly over 100 miles total distance.

George Patterson
If you don't tell lies, you never have to remember what you said.

[JFLEISC]

>So, the question to the group is, does this satisfy the requirement of
>61.109(a)(2)(i) "One cross-country flight of over 100 nautical miles total
>distance"?? (his instructor says yes, mine said no)
>
>What do you all think?

Yup. My wife just did her night xcountry last week.

Jim

[Jonathan]

I agree that it's all cross country time, and the round trip is >100.
So what then is the definition of a 'flight'. I think of a flight as a t/o
and landing. and a cross country flight should land at other than the
point of departure.

I guess I'm getting hung up on the requrement of "ONE cross country flight
over 100nm. I view his flight as TWO, 61nm cross country flights.

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Jonathan wrote:
> >
> > What do you all think?
>
> Yes. It's clearly a cross-country flight and clearly over 100 miles total
distance.
>
> George Patterson
> If you don't tell lies, you never have to remember what you said.

[Peter Duniho]

"Jonathan" > wrote in message
news:P6Wmc.816$BJ6.73308@attbi_s51...
> [...]
> I guess I'm getting hung up on the requrement of "ONE cross country flight
> over 100nm. I view his flight as TWO, 61nm cross country flights.

Funny thing about logging, you can call nearly anything you want a "flight".
Generally, words like "original point of departure" are used when the FAA
wants to make clear where one measures from.

Bottom line: even though there's a landing in the middle, the round-trip is
a single flight, as long as the pilot logging wants to call it a single
flight. He can even shut the plane down, go have some dinner, stay for a
week, whatever, if he really wants to.

Pete

[BTIZ]

a cross country flight is not over until you return home.. even if it is the
next night..

BT

"Jonathan" > wrote in message
news:P6Wmc.816$BJ6.73308@attbi_s51...
> I agree that it's all cross country time, and the round trip is >100.
> So what then is the definition of a 'flight'. I think of a flight as a
t/o
> and landing. and a cross country flight should land at other than the
> point of departure.
>
> I guess I'm getting hung up on the requrement of "ONE cross country flight
> over 100nm. I view his flight as TWO, 61nm cross country flights.
>
> "G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > Jonathan wrote:
> > >
> > > What do you all think?
> >
> > Yes. It's clearly a cross-country flight and clearly over 100 miles
total
> distance.
> >
> > George Patterson
> > If you don't tell lies, you never have to remember what you said.
>
>

[Teacherjh]

>> a cross country flight is not over until you return home.

Nope.

Suppose I fly 200 nm and land, discover the paint on the aircraft is scratched,
and call the FBO to tell them the airplane is unflyable until it gets fixed. I
take the train home.

I log this as a cross country flight. The flight is over.

The FBO has one pilot fly another pilot over to the airplane, and then flies
back alone. She logs that as one or two flights. She might even log it as
part of a flight (if she's on the way somewhere else - her call). The other
pilot (the passenger) then inspects "my" airplane and determines that I'm a
wuss for being afraid to fly with a scratch in the paint, but the gash in the
wing needs some attention. The wing is replaced, and he flies the plane
another six hundred miles to get the new wing painted. This will take three
weeks, so he too takes the train home, logging it as one flight. He does three
weeks of flight instruction (seventy three flights) and then takes the train
back to the airplane to fly it home, but in that time the FBO folded and the
plane was sold to a chap in Duluth, four hundred twelve miles away.

He flies it to Duluth. The new owner flies him back to the airport where his
FBO once was (and hopefully his car still is) and then flies back to Duluth,
the new home of the airplane.

So, by your rule above, how many never-to-be-completed cross country flights is
this airplane still flying at the same time?

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[G.R. Patterson III]

Jonathan wrote:
>
> So what then is the definition of a 'flight'.

A flight is a trip by aircraft from a point of departure to a destination chosen by
the pilot. Any number of intermediate landings may be made along the way.

George Patterson
If you don't tell lies, you never have to remember what you said.

[BTIZ]

it's not my rule... you can log it any way you want...

but for the purposes of satisfying cross country requirements to meet FAR
requirements for any rating... look up FAQ Part 61 and you will find an
example, where the long distance cross country for commercial rating
required 3 landings and 3 airports, So... a long 300nm flight with one fuel
stop and to wait for weather from Point A to Point B and to Point C this did
not meet the requirement.. as there were only two landings at B and C..
after conducting business for two days.. the pilot returns to Point C from
Point A. Non-stop This completed the cross country and met the requirements
of 3 airports and 3 landings at Point B, Point C, overnight and then Point A
on his return..

BT


"Teacherjh" > wrote in message
...
> >> a cross country flight is not over until you return home.
>
> Nope.
>
> Suppose I fly 200 nm and land, discover the paint on the aircraft is
scratched,
> and call the FBO to tell them the airplane is unflyable until it gets
fixed. I
> take the train home.
>
> I log this as a cross country flight. The flight is over.
>
> The FBO has one pilot fly another pilot over to the airplane, and then
flies
> back alone. She logs that as one or two flights. She might even log it
as
> part of a flight (if she's on the way somewhere else - her call). The
other
> pilot (the passenger) then inspects "my" airplane and determines that I'm
a
> wuss for being afraid to fly with a scratch in the paint, but the gash in
the
> wing needs some attention. The wing is replaced, and he flies the plane
> another six hundred miles to get the new wing painted. This will take
three
> weeks, so he too takes the train home, logging it as one flight. He does
three
> weeks of flight instruction (seventy three flights) and then takes the
train
> back to the airplane to fly it home, but in that time the FBO folded and
the
> plane was sold to a chap in Duluth, four hundred twelve miles away.
>
> He flies it to Duluth. The new owner flies him back to the airport where
his
> FBO once was (and hopefully his car still is) and then flies back to
Duluth,
> the new home of the airplane.
>
> So, by your rule above, how many never-to-be-completed cross country
flights is
> this airplane still flying at the same time?
>
> Jose
>
> --
> (for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Bob Martin]

(JFLEISC) wrote in message >...
> >So, the question to the group is, does this satisfy the requirement of
> >61.109(a)(2)(i) "One cross-country flight of over 100 nautical miles total
> >distance"?? (his instructor says yes, mine said no)
> >
> >What do you all think?
>
> Yup. My wife just did her night xcountry last week.
>
> Jim

Yeah, mine was 52nm each way... it counted. All 120 minutes of it
(really nasty headwind in a 150).

[Teacherjh]

>>
it's not my rule... you can log it any way you want...
>>

You said (as an absolute) that a cross country isn't finished until one returns
home. Sounds like a rule to me. :)

>>
but for the purposes of satisfying cross country requirements to meet FAR
requirements for any rating... look up FAQ Part 61 and you will find an
example, where the long distance cross country for commercial rating
required 3 landings and 3 airports, So... a long 300nm flight with one fuel
stop and to wait for weather from Point A to Point B and to Point C this did
not meet the requirement.. as there were only two landings at B and C..
after conducting business for two days.. the pilot returns to Point C from
Point A. Non-stop This completed the cross country and met the requirements
of 3 airports and 3 landings at Point B, Point C, overnight and then Point A
on his return..
>>

So THIS PARTICULAR cross country wasn't declared to be finished until the
return home, SO THAT it could be counted for a SPECIFIC requirement. (and I
presume you made a typo - the pilot returned FROM point C TO point A). The
pilot could have logged this as two cross countries but then not been able to
use it to satisfy the requirement above. He could have, instead of going home
(to point A), continued on (to point D) and that would have satisfied the
requirement even before returning home. He could have even done a touch and go
at point E just prior to B and been able to use it as a complete cross country
to satisfy the requirement.

Returning home was never the issue.

Jose




--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[BTIZ]

do you butter your toast on the front? or on the back...

and do you cut you sandwich on the horizontal.. or the vertical.?

the "original" question was.. for an out in return flight... to count the
100nm..
was it one cross country or two

I responded that "the" cross country in question was not complete until he
returned home.

Now... you can take that any way you want... or did your newsgroup program
delete the original message..
BT

"Teacherjh" > wrote in message
...
> >>
> it's not my rule... you can log it any way you want...
> >>
>
> You said (as an absolute) that a cross country isn't finished until one
returns
> home. Sounds like a rule to me. :)
>
> >>
> but for the purposes of satisfying cross country requirements to meet FAR
> requirements for any rating... look up FAQ Part 61 and you will find an
> example, where the long distance cross country for commercial rating
> required 3 landings and 3 airports, So... a long 300nm flight with one
fuel
> stop and to wait for weather from Point A to Point B and to Point C this
did
> not meet the requirement.. as there were only two landings at B and C..
> after conducting business for two days.. the pilot returns to Point C from
> Point A. Non-stop This completed the cross country and met the
requirements
> of 3 airports and 3 landings at Point B, Point C, overnight and then Point
A
> on his return..
> >>
>
> So THIS PARTICULAR cross country wasn't declared to be finished until the
> return home, SO THAT it could be counted for a SPECIFIC requirement. (and
I
> presume you made a typo - the pilot returned FROM point C TO point A).
The
> pilot could have logged this as two cross countries but then not been able
to
> use it to satisfy the requirement above. He could have, instead of going
home
> (to point A), continued on (to point D) and that would have satisfied the
> requirement even before returning home. He could have even done a touch
and go
> at point E just prior to B and been able to use it as a complete cross
country
> to satisfy the requirement.
>
> Returning home was never the issue.
>
> Jose
>
>
>
>
> --
> (for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Teacherjh]

>>
the "original" question was.. for an out in return flight... to count the
100nm.. was it one cross country or two

I responded that "the" cross country in question was not complete until he
returned home.

[/.../] do you butter your toast on the front? or on the back...
>>

LOL. Ok, I misread the context.

But here's another one for you all. To satisfy the long distance cross country
for commercial rating, which requires 3 landings and 3 airports, specifically
(61.129 (a) (4) (i) "with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which
is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original
departure point."

Given that
1) a flight must consist of at least one "leg" (reasonable definition of "leg")
2) a leg wiich does not of itself satisfy the distance requirement for a
loggable cross country flight (for purposes of some ratings) can still be PART
OF a flight which, taken as a whole, does satisfy the requirement (and even if
it would not without the leg, such as a flight from A to B (40 nm) plus a 20 nm
leg to C (total straight line distance 51nm))
3) a flight that begins and ends at the same airport (such as a sightseeing
flight, or a loop around the pattern) is still a flight.

Could I count as satisfying 61.129 (a) (4) (i) a flight consisting of:

1: a leg from A to B of 200 nm, followed by
2: a leg from B to C of 200 nm (total straight line distance 340 nm) followed
by
3: a loop around the pattern (a leg from C to C) and another landing.

I've landed at three points, I've landed at a point (C) more than 250 nm from
the starting point (A), and I've landed at three airports (A, B, and C).

The ride would not satisfy (61.129 (a) (4) (i) without the loop around the
pattern at C because it would lack 3 landings. But a loop around the pattern
doesn't really add much to the experience.

Jose
(for the record, I butter my toast on the front, and don't cut my sandwich at
all. :)

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Peter Duniho]

"Teacherjh" > wrote in message
...
> I've landed at three points, I've landed at a point (C) more than 250 nm
from
> the starting point (A), and I've landed at three airports (A, B, and C).

First of all, a leg is from one airport to another. Local flight in the
pattern does not count as a leg.

Secondly, how you get that you've landed at three airports? You took off
from A, but never landed there.

It's true that there are some unusual examples of cross-country flights to
be had from the FARs, but the example you came up with isn't one. It's
pretty clearly not a qualifying flight for the regulation you're talking
about.

Pete

[Teacherjh]

>>
Secondly, how you get that you've landed at three airports? You took off
from A, but never landed there.
<<

Oops. Ok, so you loop around the pattern at A, not at C.

>>
First of all, a leg is from one airport to another. Local flight in the
pattern does not count as a leg.
<<

Sounds reasonable, but suppose instead of going around the pattern, you go
around Manhattan and come back and land. Leg?

Jose





--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Peter Duniho]

"Teacherjh" > wrote in message
...
> [...]
> Sounds reasonable, but suppose instead of going around the pattern, you go
> around Manhattan and come back and land. Leg?

Actually, I'll take back what I said. Your only problem was the lack of a
third landing, IMHO.

However, what point would there be in landing once at your point of origin,
and terminating the flight at airport C? Someone has to get the plane back
at some point.

I believe that, the way the regulation is written, you could log a flight
such as the one you suggested (the second time, after correcting your
"landing at three points" error) to meet the requirements of
61.129(a)(4)(i). Assuming of course you meet the other requirements as well
(250 NM straightline distance, 300 NM total distance). I don't see why
anyone would bother, but they could if they wanted to.

Pete

[Teacherjh]

>>
However, what point would there be in landing once at your point of origin,
and terminating the flight at airport C? Someone has to get the plane back
at some point.

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Teacherjh]

>>
However, what point would there be in landing once at your point of origin,
and terminating the flight at airport C? Someone has to get the plane back
at some point.
<<

(oops)

How about letting another pilot do the same thing on the return, while you
visit your cousin?

Actually, there are a lot of FAR flights for which "what's the point" is not
unwarranted. :)

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[G.R. Patterson III]

Teacherjh wrote:
>
> Could I count as satisfying 61.129 (a) (4) (i) a flight consisting of:
>
> 1: a leg from A to B of 200 nm, followed by
> 2: a leg from B to C of 200 nm (total straight line distance 340 nm) followed
> by
> 3: a loop around the pattern (a leg from C to C) and another landing.
>
> I've landed at three points, ...

No, you've landed at two points. You've landed at one of them twice.

George Patterson
If you don't tell lies, you never have to remember what you said.

[Peter Duniho]

"Teacherjh" > wrote in message
...
> [...]
> How about letting another pilot do the same thing on the return, while you
> visit your cousin?

The other pilot flies the plane back during your visit of your cousin? How
do you get home? Why is that preferable to just flying your own
cross-country alone? And how does that other pilot get back to HIS home
base (he didn't come with you, since your cross-country needs to be made
solo).

> Actually, there are a lot of FAR flights for which "what's the point" is
not
> unwarranted. :)

Never said there weren't. I'm just saying that while yes the flight would
be allowed, and I think it's obvious the FAA doesn't care if you actually
return to your original point of departure since the total length is only
slightly longer than the stipulated 250 NM leg distance, I can't imagine
there's a heck of a lot of pilots just itching to take advantage of that
"loophole".

Pete

[Teacherjh]

>>
The other pilot flies the plane back during your visit of your cousin? How
do you get home? Why is that preferable to just flying your own
cross-country alone?
<<

If i fly the cross-country alone, and keep the plane for my (three week) visit
with my cousins, the FBO or club doesn't get to use the plane. An FBO would
charge me UmGods of dollars to let the plane sit there. In a club situation I
get to keep the plane, but nobody gets to fly it. I come home with my cousin,
who drives me (she wanted to see my house and sit in my hot tub), and I'm on
the way to her folk festival that weekend.

>>
And how does that other pilot get back to HIS home
base (he didn't come with you, since your cross-country needs to be made
solo).
<<

The other pilot is flying the plane back to his home base. He was already up
here, having dropped his son off at College, and leaving him the family station
wagon.

Or, Fred (who wants the plane to visit HIS cousin for two weeks down in
Florida) arranges to meet me at my distant airport after his half of a $100
hamburger, which he flew with a third pilot who happens to like the sushi
restaurant in town. He takes my plane and goes to Florida, I don't have to pay
daily minima,
Fred brings the airplane back to its home base on his nickel, and he's happy
because otherwise he'd have to take a commercial plane to Florida, and submit
to the TSA.

We're a little off the track here, and I admit that it's an uncommon scenario.
But the regs don't say the flight has to be a common scenario.

Oh, wait a minute, this nonsense about "common purpose" for taking passengers
sort of goes against "uncommon scenaria", doesn't it.

Jose


--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Peter Duniho]

"Teacherjh" > wrote in message
...
> [...]
> We're a little off the track here, and I admit that it's an uncommon
scenario.
> But the regs don't say the flight has to be a common scenario.

I never said it did, nor did I ever say it was an impossible scenario.

But you have to admit, as *possible* as the scenario you posit might be, I
would be willing to bet a modest amount of money it has never actually
occurred in real life. I still don't see why anyone would bother, since the
logistics involved in such a convoluted and contrived situation are
mind-bogglingly complex, relying on at least FOUR independent prerequisites.

I have no idea why you have invested so much effort in this idea, since no
one is arguing with you about any of it. But I hope you've gained whatever
satisfaction you intended.

Pete

[BTIZ]

I agree with George...

and a "round robin" sight seeing trip does not count as a cross country..
you can fly 60nm out and 60nm back.. and not touch the ground except for
where you started from and it's not countable as a cross country for
advancement of ratings purposes..

Thanx that all those 14 hours missions in B-52s out and returns with no
distant landings.. were countable..

BT

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Teacherjh wrote:
> >
> > Could I count as satisfying 61.129 (a) (4) (i) a flight consisting of:
> >
> > 1: a leg from A to B of 200 nm, followed by
> > 2: a leg from B to C of 200 nm (total straight line distance 340 nm)
followed
> > by
> > 3: a loop around the pattern (a leg from C to C) and another landing.
> >
> > I've landed at three points, ...
>
> No, you've landed at two points. You've landed at one of them twice.
>
> George Patterson
> If you don't tell lies, you never have to remember what you said.

[Teacherjh]

>>
I agree with George...

and a "round robin" sight seeing trip does not count as a cross country..
you can fly 60nm out and 60nm back..
<<

But what about the fixed version, where I loop around the pattern at A, then
land at B and C. NOW I"ve landed at three places....

and a leg that does not count as a cross country can be part of a FLIGHT that
does count, and therefore the time could count.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[BTIZ]

I'M NOT SURE
But I would think that a T&G at Airport A may not really count.. as you have
not STARTED your X-C until you "leave" the airport.. headed for Airport B

a definition of which came first .. the chicken or the egg..

BT

"Teacherjh" > wrote in message
...
> >>
> I agree with George...
>
> and a "round robin" sight seeing trip does not count as a cross country..
> you can fly 60nm out and 60nm back..
> <<
>
> But what about the fixed version, where I loop around the pattern at A,
then
> land at B and C. NOW I"ve landed at three places....
>
> and a leg that does not count as a cross country can be part of a FLIGHT
that
> does count, and therefore the time could count.
>
> Jose
>
> --
> (for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Peter Duniho]

"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:m5vnc.17325$k24.4710@fed1read01...
> I'M NOT SURE
> But I would think that a T&G at Airport A may not really count.. as you
have
> not STARTED your X-C until you "leave" the airport.. headed for Airport B

You log the time from the moment the airplane begins to move under its own
power for the purpose of flight. So the flight definitely starts before you
leave the airport. It starts before you take off for the first time.

I see no reason why a touch-and-go at the point of departure would not
qualify. After all, a more conventional cross-country flight would include
the landing at the end of the flight that occurs at the point of departure
(which is also the final destination). Why would it matter whether the
landing happened at the beginning or the end of the cross-country?

> a definition of which came first .. the chicken or the egg..

I don't think so.

Pete

[G.R. Patterson III]

Peter Duniho wrote:
>
> However, what point would there be in landing once at your point of origin,
> and terminating the flight at airport C? Someone has to get the plane back
> at some point.

Well, if I go for the Commercial certificate, I will use one of my flights to
Lakeland, Oshkosh, or a similar destination to meet that requirement. Yes, the plane
got back to point A eventually, but not on that flight.

George Patterson
If you don't tell lies, you never have to remember what you said.

[G.R. Patterson III]

Teacherjh wrote:
>
> But what about the fixed version, where I loop around the pattern at A, then
> land at B and C. NOW I"ve landed at three places....

In my opinion, that meets the letter of the regulation.

George Patterson
If you don't tell lies, you never have to remember what you said.

[Peter Duniho]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
> [...]
> Well, if I go for the Commercial certificate, I will use one of my flights
to
> Lakeland, Oshkosh, or a similar destination to meet that requirement. Yes,
the plane
> got back to point A eventually, but not on that flight.

The entire flight would be usable for the new rating though. You may not
need to log the flight as the round-trip, but the flight IS a round-trip,
and you would be permitted to log it that way if it was necessary to qualify
for the rating.

If you will go back and read what has been said, you'll see that all I'm
trying to say is that I don't think it likely that someone will take
advantage of the "loophole" Jose found that allows the flight to simply
terminate 250 NM away from home. Like Jose, you are arguing an argument
that doesn't even exist. I don't disagree with what you wrote, but what you
wrote isn't relevant to what I said.

Pete

[G.R. Patterson III]

Peter Duniho wrote:
>
> The entire flight would be usable for the new rating though. You may not
> need to log the flight as the round-trip, but the flight IS a round-trip,
> and you would be permitted to log it that way if it was necessary to qualify
> for the rating.

As far as I'm concerned, if I fly to Lakeland for S&F, stay a week, and fly back,
that's two flights, not one.

George Patterson
If you don't tell lies, you never have to remember what you said.

[Peter Duniho]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
> As far as I'm concerned, if I fly to Lakeland for S&F, stay a week, and
fly back,
> that's two flights, not one.

Again, you are arguing an argument that doesn't exist. How you log your
flights is your business. You are free to call your flight to Lakeland and
back two flights, and you are free to call it a single flight. You happen
to choose the former, but the fact remains that the latter is an option as
well. If you had a practical reason to choose to call it a single flight,
for the purpose of meeting some aeronautical experience requirement, you'd
be foolish not to do so IMHO. But it would be your right to not do so.

One day, someone is going to do a psychology report about the Usenet, to
figure out what it is about this medium that makes people so eager to get
into an argument, even when none exists. I admit, I've been guilty of the
same myself now and then, but I still am quite puzzled when I see someone
else do it. Doubly so when it's already been pointed out to them that they
are doing it.

Pete

[Teacherjh]

>>
Like Jose, you are arguing an argument
that doesn't even exist
<<

Whether I (or anybody) takes advantage of a "loophole" in the FARs, it is
useful to know what they permit and what they don't. It is sometimes
interesting to think about why.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Peter Duniho]

"Teacherjh" > wrote in message
...
> [...]
> Whether I (or anybody) takes advantage of a "loophole" in the FARs, it is
> useful to know what they permit and what they don't. It is sometimes
> interesting to think about why.

I agree that it's useful to know what is permitted and to think about why
it's permitted. However, that's not what's going on here at this point.

Pete

[Teacherjh]

>> However, that's not what's going on here at this point.

Well, it was at one point. At least with me. :)

Jose

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[News Server]

"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:X4jnc.17270$k24.17183@fed1read01...
> I agree with George...
>
> and a "round robin" sight seeing trip does not count as a cross country..
> you can fly 60nm out and 60nm back.. and not touch the ground except for
> where you started from and it's not countable as a cross country for
> advancement of ratings purposes..

Sure it is - for the ATP

Mat

[Katherine]

> You log the time from the moment the airplane begins to move under its own
> power for the purpose of flight. So the flight definitely starts before you
> leave the airport. It starts before you take off for the first time.

On my second student cross-country, my door popped open right after
takeoff, and I had to circle around and land again, shut the door, and
take off again. Afterwards, I asked my instructor whether that first
trip around the pattern counted as part of the cross-country. He said
yes, because my intention (from the moment the engine started) was to
fly somewhere else. He said this logic also applies to the 20 minutes
that I waited in line for departure on the ground.

--Kath

[Teacherjh]

>>
Afterwards, I asked my instructor whether that first
trip around the pattern counted as part of the cross-country. He said
yes...
<<

Would the milage around the pattern count towards the 100nm total distance
requirement?

Jose


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