Flight Computer Input Devices

[Mike the Strike]

I'm about to upgrade my Discus 2 panel with a more modern flight computer (5.6" class 640x480 display) and in reviewing the various options I am interested in user opinions about input devices.

My panel is just out of easy reach, so I'll need some input device - either stick-mount or cord-mount. Pros, cons and comments about the various approaches (button, trackball, etc.) would be useful.

Mike

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Mike the Strike wrote, On 2/25/2014 8:10 AM:
> I'm about to upgrade my Discus 2 panel with a more modern flight
> computer (5.6" class 640x480 display) and in reviewing the various
> options I am interested in user opinions about input devices.
>
> My panel is just out of easy reach, so I'll need some input device -
> either stick-mount or cord-mount. Pros, cons and comments about the
> various approaches (button, trackball, etc.) would be useful.

Don't mount it on the panel; instead, use a Ram mount or similar on the
panel to position it closer to you. I did that with an iPaq and a
ClearNav - easy (no changes required to the panel) and effective. Others
mount the display off the panel on the canopy frame (or just below the
frame), allowing the display to be within easy reach, or on a bracket
affixed to the glare shield.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

[Evan Ludeman[_4_]]

On Tuesday, February 25, 2014 11:10:21 AM UTC-5, Mike the Strike wrote:
> I'm about to upgrade my Discus 2 panel with a more modern flight computer (5.6" class 640x480 display) and in reviewing the various options I am interested in user opinions about input devices.
>
>
>
> My panel is just out of easy reach, so I'll need some input device - either stick-mount or cord-mount. Pros, cons and comments about the various approaches (button, trackball, etc.) would be useful.
>
>
>
> Mike

Beware any device that requires precision analog hand / eye coordination. It will add up to an awful lot of head in the cockpit time. A push button interface ("digital", not analog), stick mounted, works well for most pilots (and works great on ClearNav).

Evan Ludeman (affiliated with ClearNav, but speaking for myself)

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Evan Ludeman wrote, On 2/25/2014 10:18 AM:
> On Tuesday, February 25, 2014 11:10:21 AM UTC-5, Mike the Strike
> wrote:
>> I'm about to upgrade my Discus 2 panel with a more modern flight
>> computer (5.6" class 640x480 display) and in reviewing the various
>> options I am interested in user opinions about input devices.
>>
>>
>>
>> My panel is just out of easy reach, so I'll need some input device
>> - either stick-mount or cord-mount. Pros, cons and comments about
>> the various approaches (button, trackball, etc.) would be useful.
>>
>>
>>
>> Mike
>
> Beware any device that requires precision analog hand / eye
> coordination. It will add up to an awful lot of head in the cockpit
> time. A push button interface ("digital", not analog), stick
> mounted, works well for most pilots (and works great on ClearNav).

"It depends" a lot on what your flying is like. I've used SeeYou Mobile
on an iPaq (600+ hours), and currently a ClearNav (600+ hours), and
found the touch interface to be quicker, easier, more intuitive, and
required less eye contact with the display.

If I flew on turbulent ridges routinely, perhaps I'd feel differently,
but the huge number of touch interface flight computers in use indicates
the efficacy of the method.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

[Evan Ludeman[_4_]]

On Tuesday, February 25, 2014 3:49:08 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:

> but the huge number of touch interface flight computers in use indicates
> the efficacy of the method.

I'd make the argument that their numbers reflect the easy availability and economy of these consumer devices myself... but the important thing is that you have devices that work well for your use and *don't* require a lot of head in the cockpit time.

best,

Evan Ludeman

[Papa3[_2_]]

I'm with Evan on this (and yes, I'm also a ClearNav guy). I recently posted to a similar thread on our Appalachian Mountains Soaring Group, but to summarize:

- I nearly tossed a working IPAQ Aero 1520 out the apple core window into the Susquehanna River thanks to the frustrations of trying to poke at a touchscreen while moving along at 100kts in +/- 2G turbulence.
- All of the aircraft in high intensity environments use HOTAS (hands on throttle and stick) controls with various buttons and switches.
- Trackballs are miserable in an unstable environment like glider; impossible to point and click on the target; even worse than pointing your finger.
- You will quickly learn the patterns in a device with large buttons arranged on a remote (stick mounted or tethered). I can zoom in, zoom out, and select without ever having to look down.

So, I'm another vote for a well laid out, button-based remote. IIRC, someone recently demoed a primitive COTS solution using XC Soar or LK 8000 (one of the Android crew).

Erik Mann
P3



On Tuesday, February 25, 2014 4:03:53 PM UTC-5, Evan Ludeman wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 25, 2014 3:49:08 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>
>
>
> > but the huge number of touch interface flight computers in use indicates
>
> > the efficacy of the method.
>
>
>
> I'd make the argument that their numbers reflect the easy availability and economy of these consumer devices myself... but the important thing is that you have devices that work well for your use and *don't* require a lot of head in the cockpit time.
>
>
>
> best,
>
>
>
> Evan Ludeman

[Craig Funston[_2_]]

On Tuesday, February 25, 2014 2:05:37 PM UTC-8, Papa3 wrote:
> I'm with Evan on this (and yes, I'm also a ClearNav guy). I recently posted to a similar thread on our Appalachian Mountains Soaring Group, but to summarize:
>
>
>
> - I nearly tossed a working IPAQ Aero 1520 out the apple core window into the Susquehanna River thanks to the frustrations of trying to poke at a touchscreen while moving along at 100kts in +/- 2G turbulence.
>
> - All of the aircraft in high intensity environments use HOTAS (hands on throttle and stick) controls with various buttons and switches.
>
> - Trackballs are miserable in an unstable environment like glider; impossible to point and click on the target; even worse than pointing your finger.
>
> - You will quickly learn the patterns in a device with large buttons arranged on a remote (stick mounted or tethered). I can zoom in, zoom out, and select without ever having to look down.
>
>
>
> So, I'm another vote for a well laid out, button-based remote. IIRC, someone recently demoed a primitive COTS solution using XC Soar or LK 8000 (one of the Android crew).
>
>
>
> Erik Mann
>
> P3
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, February 25, 2014 4:03:53 PM UTC-5, Evan Ludeman wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, February 25, 2014 3:49:08 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > > but the huge number of touch interface flight computers in use indicates
>
> >
>
> > > the efficacy of the method.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I'd make the argument that their numbers reflect the easy availability and economy of these consumer devices myself... but the important thing is that you have devices that work well for your use and *don't* require a lot of head in the cockpit time.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > best,
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Evan Ludeman

That was Paolo for LK8000 (Windows mobile based)

Craig
7Q

[Richard[_9_]]

On Tuesday, February 25, 2014 8:10:21 AM UTC-8, Mike the Strike wrote:
> I'm about to upgrade my Discus 2 panel with a more modern flight computer (5.6" class 640x480 display) and in reviewing the various options I am interested in user opinions about input devices.
>
>
>
> My panel is just out of easy reach, so I'll need some input device - either stick-mount or cord-mount. Pros, cons and comments about the various approaches (button, trackball, etc.) would be useful.
>
>
>
> Mike

Mike,

I have over 800 hours with a track ball mouse input. It work extremely well even in turbulence. The menu button on the Utlimate Le SeeYou are large and just about impossible to miss with a track ball mouse. The thumb trackball on the stick trigger works the best. And best of all you already know how to use it.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[Richard[_9_]]

On Tuesday, February 25, 2014 2:05:37 PM UTC-8, Papa3 wrote:
> I'm with Evan on this (and yes, I'm also a ClearNav guy). I recently posted to a similar thread on our Appalachian Mountains Soaring Group, but to summarize:
>
>
>
> - I nearly tossed a working IPAQ Aero 1520 out the apple core window into the Susquehanna River thanks to the frustrations of trying to poke at a touchscreen while moving along at 100kts in +/- 2G turbulence.
>
> - All of the aircraft in high intensity environments use HOTAS (hands on throttle and stick) controls with various buttons and switches.
>
> - Trackballs are miserable in an unstable environment like glider; impossible to point and click on the target; even worse than pointing your finger.
>
> - You will quickly learn the patterns in a device with large buttons arranged on a remote (stick mounted or tethered). I can zoom in, zoom out, and select without ever having to look down.
>
>
>
> So, I'm another vote for a well laid out, button-based remote. IIRC, someone recently demoed a primitive COTS solution using XC Soar or LK 8000 (one of the Android crew).
>
>
>
> Erik Mann
>
> P3
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, February 25, 2014 4:03:53 PM UTC-5, Evan Ludeman wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday, February 25, 2014 3:49:08 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > > but the huge number of touch interface flight computers in use indicates
>
> >
>
> > > the efficacy of the method.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I'd make the argument that their numbers reflect the easy availability and economy of these consumer devices myself... but the important thing is that you have devices that work well for your use and *don't* require a lot of head in the cockpit time.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > best,
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Evan Ludeman

Eric,

I am almost positive that you have never used a track ball in the cockpit. I have and find it works easily and is nothing like you describe, it is not miserable it is wonderful and easy to use.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

[waremark]

On Tuesday, 25 February 2014 18:18:03 UTC, Evan Ludeman wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 25, 2014 11:10:21 AM UTC-5, Mike the Strike wrote:
>
> > I'm about to upgrade my Discus 2 panel with a more modern flight computer (5.6" class 640x480 display) and in reviewing the various options I am interested in user opinions about input devices.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > My panel is just out of easy reach, so I'll need some input device - either stick-mount or cord-mount. Pros, cons and comments about the various approaches (button, trackball, etc.) would be useful.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Mike
>
>
>
> Beware any device that requires precision analog hand / eye coordination. It will add up to an awful lot of head in the cockpit time. A push button interface ("digital", not analog), stick mounted, works well for most pilots (and works great on ClearNav).
>
>
>
> Evan Ludeman (affiliated with ClearNav, but speaking for myself)

Touch screens are best for land based activity, such as entering new tasks - no other system is as easy for entering text. I have used Winpilot and SYM for years on various devices and have not had problems hitting the right part of the screen in flight either, but I do not often fly at high speed in high turbulence.

Last season I was using an LX 9000. I have no difficulty reaching the controls on the panel. I find the use of rotary knobs for many tasks to be excellent, and much better than using sequential button pushes for the same tasks - so for me using the knobs on the instrument is much better than using buttons on the stick remotes (in the car I generally adjust my radio volume with the knob on the dash rather than the button on the steering wheel). BTW, I find the LX 9000 to be superb.

[Mike the Strike]

I was leaning towards the ClearNav/LX approach of buttons rather than the trackball, although I believe both are quite workable. I currently use an Oudie and have had problems in rough air with the touchscreen.

The LX 9000 does look most interesting, but would be a lot more attractive if the Euro was at 0.8 to the US dollar instead of 1.35! The idea of putting the computer on a RAM mount within easy reach wasn't an idea I had originally considered, but might actually be viable.

I wonder how many here have taken that approach?

Mike

[Renny[_2_]]

On Friday, February 28, 2014 9:16:44 AM UTC-7, Mike the Strike wrote:
> I was leaning towards the ClearNav/LX approach of buttons rather than the trackball, although I believe both are quite workable. I currently use an Oudie and have had problems in rough air with the touchscreen.
>
>
>
> The LX 9000 does look most interesting, but would be a lot more attractive if the Euro was at 0.8 to the US dollar instead of 1.35! The idea of putting the computer on a RAM mount within easy reach wasn't an idea I had originally considered, but might actually be viable.
>
>
>
> I wonder how many here have taken that approach?
>
>
>
> Mike

Mike,
I just installed an LX9000 on a RAM mount over the winter in my LAK and it seems to be working out just fine. You can see the photos on the Cumulus Soaring website.

It is very easy to reach and control and I am very confident that it will work out great during the coming soaring season at Moriarty. Once I have a few flights under my belt with this set-up, I'll provide an update on RAS.

Thx - Renny

[son_of_flubber]

On Friday, February 28, 2014 11:16:44 AM UTC-5, Mike the Strike wrote:

> I wonder how many here have taken that approach?

I recall that Frank Paynter mentioned in his Soaring Cafe account that he had his Clear Nav on a RAM mount when he crashed. It abruptly detached. Subsequent trajectory unknown. A short well-anchored leash might make sense.

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Fri, 28 Feb 2014 08:16:44 -0800, Mike the Strike wrote:

> I was leaning towards the ClearNav/LX approach of buttons rather than
> the trackball, although I believe both are quite workable. I currently
> use an Oudie and have had problems in rough air with the touchscreen.
>
> The LX 9000 does look most interesting, but would be a lot more
> attractive if the Euro was at 0.8 to the US dollar instead of 1.35! The
> idea of putting the computer on a RAM mount within easy reach wasn't an
> idea I had originally considered, but might actually be viable.
>
> I wonder how many here have taken that approach?
>
> Mike

Dunno whether this helps, but I have a PNA running LK8000 on a RAM Flex-
mount. That works for me. However, I fly in fairly non-turbulent
conditions and find that resting some fingers on the edge of the PNA
while prodding it with thumb or index finger helps a lot.

Of course, the thing that helps most of all is the ability of LK8000 and
XCSoar to let you fly a task without any pilot inputs provided, of
course, that conditions are good enough to complete the task without
needing to abandon any TPs.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Evan Ludeman[_4_]]

On Friday, February 28, 2014 11:16:44 AM UTC-5, Mike the Strike wrote:
> I was leaning towards the ClearNav/LX approach of buttons rather than the trackball, although I believe both are quite workable. I currently use an Oudie and have had problems in rough air with the touchscreen.
>
>
>
> The LX 9000 does look most interesting, but would be a lot more attractive if the Euro was at 0.8 to the US dollar instead of 1.35! The idea of putting the computer on a RAM mount within easy reach wasn't an idea I had originally considered, but might actually be viable.
>
>
>
> I wonder how many here have taken that approach?
>
>
>
> Mike

I have had CN on a ram mount for two seasons... no issues, works great, solid as the proverbial rock (lotsa ridge flying). The tunnel or behind panel mounts are prettier, but the ram mount allowed me to keep all my antique 80mm gauges. Hit me up if you have any CN questions or browse our forum for more info.

Evan Ludeman for CNi

[Craig Funston[_2_]]

On Friday, February 28, 2014 2:21:08 PM UTC-8, Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Feb 2014 08:16:44 -0800, Mike the Strike wrote:
>
>
>
> > I was leaning towards the ClearNav/LX approach of buttons rather than
>
> > the trackball, although I believe both are quite workable. I currently
>
> > use an Oudie and have had problems in rough air with the touchscreen.
>
> >
>
> > The LX 9000 does look most interesting, but would be a lot more
>
> > attractive if the Euro was at 0.8 to the US dollar instead of 1.35! The
>
> > idea of putting the computer on a RAM mount within easy reach wasn't an
>
> > idea I had originally considered, but might actually be viable.
>
> >
>
> > I wonder how many here have taken that approach?
>
> >
>
> > Mike
>
>
>
> Dunno whether this helps, but I have a PNA running LK8000 on a RAM Flex-
>
> mount. That works for me. However, I fly in fairly non-turbulent
>
> conditions and find that resting some fingers on the edge of the PNA
>
> while prodding it with thumb or index finger helps a lot.
>
>
>
> Of course, the thing that helps most of all is the ability of LK8000 and
>
> XCSoar to let you fly a task without any pilot inputs provided, of
>
> course, that conditions are good enough to complete the task without
>
> needing to abandon any TPs.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> martin@ | Martin Gregorie
>
> gregorie. | Essex, UK
>
> org |

The lovely thing about LK8000 is that for most flying you just need to touch in large zones rather than try to hit buttons. It works well, even in turbulence.
Craig
7Q

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Fri, 28 Feb 2014 15:14:33 -0800, Craig Funston wrote:

And, hopefully, almost all prodding it will ever need in flight involves
simply tapping the top left screen corner to dial round the list of TPs,
HOME and the 1st and 2nd nearest alternate landout fields.



--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[[email protected]]

The key is not requiring 'precise' touchpad control. A touchpad is no problem if the buttons are big enough.

And for those who have never seen an aircraft trackball. They have a grip that the fingers grab while you use the thumb or another finger to move the trackball. At least the ones that I have seen ( but never used ) are like that.

[[email protected]]

I can't stand touch screens even when sitting still on the ground with nothing else needing my attention. Just a personal thing. Too bad as otherwise I could have upgraded my avionics during the PowerFLARM install for a LOT less money.

[K]

On Friday, February 28, 2014 9:16:44 AM UTC-7, Mike the Strike wrote:
> I was leaning towards the ClearNav/LX approach of buttons rather than the trackball, although I believe both are quite workable. I currently use an Oudie and have had problems in rough air with the touchscreen.
>
>
>
> The LX 9000 does look most interesting, but would be a lot more attractive if the Euro was at 0.8 to the US dollar instead of 1.35! The idea of putting the computer on a RAM mount within easy reach wasn't an idea I had originally considered, but might actually be viable.
>
>
>
> I wonder how many here have taken that approach?
>
>
>
> Mike

This is not a paid advertisement ;). I just came from the convention and I horsed around with the Craggy Ultimate and a trackball. Thought Id not like it but I actually found it VERY easy to use and I did spend some time on it. I am a SYM man myself but I understand you have a choice of software with the ultimate (Unlike some of the others).