Does the CFI ride count towards your BFR?

[BoDEAN]

Can't get a clear cut answer from anyone on this....
Got my CFI last may, does my 24 calendar months start on that date til
when I need a BFR?
Or would I have to go back to my Multi Training for a starting date

[zatatime]

On Wed, 12 May 2004 22:54:52 -0400, BoDEAN > wrote:

>Can't get a clear cut answer from anyone on this....
>Got my CFI last may, does my 24 calendar months start on that date til
>when I need a BFR?
>Or would I have to go back to my Multi Training for a starting date
>


I used it as my BFR when I got it, and then used my Double I when I
got that.

Issuance of any Certificate or Rating is what qualifies you, and a CFI
ride results in the issuance of a Certificate.

HTH.
z

[Greg Esres]

<<Got my CFI last may, does my 24 calendar months start on that date
til when I need a BFR? >>

Technically, no, because only checkrides for PILOT certificates count.

The FAQs say you should get the examiner on a CFI ride to sign you off
on a Flight Review (not BFR) in order to get credit for it. Some
people here have reported, however, that some examiners may not do
that because they are not supposed to instruct.

[Brad Z]

The argument is that an instructor checkride does not count, because a
Instructor certificate is not a pilot certificate. 14 CFR 61.56, which
deals with BFR's, specifies in paragraph (d) that a proficiency check for a
pilot certificate or rating is required. 14 CFR 61.5(a) defines a pilot
certificate as Student, Rec, Private, Commercial and ATP, and paragraph (b)
defines ratings for airplanes as class ratings (SEL,MEL,SES,MES) or
instrument ratings.

In reality, I doubt this is enforced by the FSDO's. If you're not a
risktaker, just ask your CFI who signs you off for your CFI, MEI or CFII to
sign you off for a BFR-- you've met all the requirements if they're willing
to sign you off for the checkride.



"BoDEAN" > wrote in message
...
> Can't get a clear cut answer from anyone on this....
> Got my CFI last may, does my 24 calendar months start on that date til
> when I need a BFR?
> Or would I have to go back to my Multi Training for a starting date
>
>

[BTIZ]

CFI rides do not count... unless the examiner providing the check ride
specifically states in the log book that requirements of 61.56 were met. A
Flight Review requires one hour of ground INSTRUCTION and one hour of flight
INSTRUCTION.. does a DE "instruct" on a check ride?

BT

"BoDEAN" > wrote in message
...
> Can't get a clear cut answer from anyone on this....
> Got my CFI last may, does my 24 calendar months start on that date til
> when I need a BFR?
> Or would I have to go back to my Multi Training for a starting date
>
>

[Hilton]

Greg Esres wrote:
> <<Got my CFI last may, does my 24 calendar months start on that date
> til when I need a BFR? >>
>
> Technically, no, because only checkrides for PILOT certificates count.

The FARs do not says that, nor does AOPA's legal department.

Hilton

[C J Campbell]

The regulations are not clear and can be argued either way. Some FSDOs have
argued that the CFI is not a pilot certificate; others have accepted it as
such. Contrary to some other posts, neither the FAA nor the AOPA have said
that there is a requirement for the examiner to sign off the check ride as a
BFR. However, if the examiner does sign it off as such, then there is no
question about it.

[Greg Esres]

<<The FARs do not says that, nor does AOPA's legal department.>>

Yes, the FARs do, as noted below. It says "pilot certificate", not
"any certificate" as AOPA says.

61.56
....
(d) A person who has, within the period specified in paragraph (c) of
this section, passed a pilot proficiency check conducted by an
examiner, an approved pilot check airman, or a U.S. Armed Force, for a
PILOT certificate, rating, or operating privilege need not accomplish
the flight review required by this section

[J.M. Farrington]

"Greg Esres" > wrote in message
...
> <<The FARs do not says that, nor does AOPA's legal department.>>
>
> Yes, the FARs do, as noted below. It says "pilot certificate", not
> "any certificate" as AOPA says.
>
> 61.56
> ...
> (d) A person who has, within the period specified in paragraph (c) of
> this section, passed a pilot proficiency check conducted by an
> examiner, an approved pilot check airman, or a U.S. Armed Force, for a
> PILOT certificate, rating, or operating privilege need not accomplish
> the flight review required by this section
>
Please note that right after Pilot certificate, is says , rating, is not
the a rating.

John

[BoDEAN]

And if the examinar didnt sign me off for a BFR when I did my cfi ride
last year??

On Wed, 12 May 2004 22:19:26 -0700, "C J Campbell"
> wrote:

>The regulations are not clear and can be argued either way. Some FSDOs have
>argued that the CFI is not a pilot certificate; others have accepted it as
>such. Contrary to some other posts, neither the FAA nor the AOPA have said
>that there is a requirement for the examiner to sign off the check ride as a
>BFR. However, if the examiner does sign it off as such, then there is no
>question about it.
>

[C J Campbell]

"BoDEAN" > wrote in message
...
> And if the examinar didnt sign me off for a BFR when I did my cfi ride
> last year??
>

I wouldn't worry that much about it. My personal opinion is that it is
legal, but there are a lot of people who disagree. Who is ever going to ask
you about it?

If it really bothers you, get someone to sign off a BFR for you.

[Greg Esres]

<<Please note that right after Pilot certificate, is says , rating, is
not the a rating.>>

I don't understand what you said.

[Greg Esres]

<<neither the FAA nor the AOPA have said that there is a requirement
for the examiner to sign off the check ride as a>>

The FAA said, via the FAQs:

However, to make sure the applicant gets credit for successful
completion of the Flight Review, the examiner should record that the
§61.56 Flight Review was satisfactorily completed in the applicant’s
logbook.

[zatatime]

On Thu, 13 May 2004 05:24:46 GMT, Greg Esres >
wrote:

><<The FARs do not says that, nor does AOPA's legal department.>>
>
>Yes, the FARs do, as noted below. It says "pilot certificate", not
>"any certificate" as AOPA says.
>
>61.56
>...
>(d) A person who has, within the period specified in paragraph (c) of
>this section, passed a pilot proficiency check conducted by an
>examiner, an approved pilot check airman, or a U.S. Armed Force, for a
>PILOT certificate, rating, or operating privilege need not accomplish
>the flight review required by this section
>


Given the fine line between certificate and pilot certificate. I do
believe you are still legal according to this reg. After pilot
certificate it states "rating, or operating privilege." A CFI is not
a rating, but is an additional privilege so if you are looking for a
fine line technicality you have it within the constructs of 61.56(d).

There is also something called the spirit of the law which plays
heavily in decisions made by courts where an issue is raised over such
a minute detail. The spirit of this law appears to encompass all
ratings/certificates so you really don't have a problem.

As others have said...If you are worried about it have the guy who
signed you off for the ride give you a BFR, I doubt he'd have a
problem with it.

z

[Hilton]

Greg Esres wrote:
> <<neither the FAA nor the AOPA have said that there is a requirement
> for the examiner to sign off the check ride as a>>
>
> The FAA said, via the FAQs:
>
> However, to make sure the applicant gets credit for successful
> completion of the Flight Review, the examiner should record that the
> §61.56 Flight Review was satisfactorily completed in the applicant's
> logbook.

Until John can get some of the basic FAQs correct, that FAQ counts for zilch
in my book.

I pay AOPA $52 each year for legal services. I called them. They assured
me that my CFI checkrides count. I'm set. :)

Hilton

[Greg Esres]

<<They assured me that my CFI checkrides count. I'm set. :)>>

Ask them for the basis of that determination. It conflicts with the
regulation as written.

John Lynch's interpretation is wishy-washy. He says it counts and
then says it doesn't. Again, it conflicts with the regulation as
written.

What everyone is saying, really, is that it should count so we'll
pretend that it does.

[Greg Esres]

<<Given the fine line between certificate and pilot certificate. >>

Pilot certificate is clearly defined in the regs. "Flight Instructor"
isn't one.

<<A CFI is not a rating, but is an additional privilege so if you are
lo>>

A CFI is a flight instructor certificate with various ratings attached
to it.

"Operating privilege" is not defined in the regs anywhere I can find,
but since a CFI is a certificate and a rating, it most likely doesn't
fall under "Operating privilege".

There is no way to interpret this reg as allowing the CFI to count as
a Flight Review, without incorporating a heavy dose of wishful
thinking.

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Thu, 13 May 2004 06:14:01 GMT, "J.M. Farrington" >
wrote:

>Please note that right after Pilot certificate, is says , rating, is not
>the a rating.

No. It is a certificate, but not a Pilot Certificate.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Thu, 13 May 2004 15:23:32 GMT, "Hilton" > wrote:

>Until John can get some of the basic FAQs correct, that FAQ counts for zilch
>in my book.
>
>I pay AOPA $52 each year for legal services. I called them. They assured
>me that my CFI checkrides count. I'm set. :)

The only opinion that really counts will be that of the FAA inspector that
decides to review your log book. If it were a concern of mine, I would
check with my local FSDO, and escalate if I did not get the answer I
thought was correct.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Jim Burns]

I've always considered that it didn't, because like others have said, the
CFI cert. is not a pilot certificate, it's an instructor's certificate, just
as a Ground Instructor's certificate is an instructors certificate. It's
just my opinion, but this seems the safest and that I feel the 1 hour
ground/1 hour flight instruction is well worth the time and expense.

I don't think that a person should be too worried about a FSDO inspector
getting too picky and looking to bust you about it. What I would be more
concerned about is a DE haveing a point of issue with it while during your
next check ride he asks you to show him that you are a legally qualified
pilot. It would be a difficult arguement to have while you were in a
difficult position. That would be my main reason to double cover myself, if
that is what you want to call it.

Good luck.

Jim Burns

"BoDEAN" > wrote in message
...
> Can't get a clear cut answer from anyone on this....
> Got my CFI last may, does my 24 calendar months start on that date til
> when I need a BFR?
> Or would I have to go back to my Multi Training for a starting date
>
>

[Robert M. Gary]

BoDEAN > wrote in message >...
> Can't get a clear cut answer from anyone on this....
> Got my CFI last may, does my 24 calendar months start on that date til
> when I need a BFR?
> Or would I have to go back to my Multi Training for a starting date

No, checkrides for an Instructor's certificate do not count toward a
BFR. Only checkrides towards a Pilot certificate count. I had a guy at
the FSDO actually try to explain it to me but I still don't think it
makes sense. The FDSO guy said something like Instructor certificates
do not specifically requiring flying, the checkride could be done by
evaluation, not demonstration (different CFI examiners seem to do
differing amount of evaluating vs. flying on the CFI checkrides).
For some reason the FARs are very specific when they say "pilot
certificate". I'm not sure if they were trying to exclude instructors
or perhaps some A&Ps were trying to claim their A&P practical test
from an examiner counted toward a BFR.


-Robert, CFI

[Michael]

"Brad Z" > wrote
> In reality, I doubt this is enforced by the FSDO's.

I've seen it enforced.

The situation was that there was an accident, it clearly wasn't pilot
error (engine quit at low altitude, not due to fuel starvation,
everyone walked away) but the FAA inspector took a dislike to the
pilot and wanted to get him. Couldn't get him on anything related to
the accident (there were just too many witnesses) so got him on flying
out of BFR by deciding that the CFII ride taken a few months ago
didn't count.

Michael

[BoDEAN]

Even if it was a year ago??


On Thu, 13 May 2004 15:21:26 GMT, zatatime
> wrote:

> On Thu, 13 May 2004 05:24:46 GMT, Greg Esres >
>wrote:
>
>><<The FARs do not says that, nor does AOPA's legal department.>>
>>
>>Yes, the FARs do, as noted below. It says "pilot certificate", not
>>"any certificate" as AOPA says.
>>
>>61.56
>>...
>>(d) A person who has, within the period specified in paragraph (c) of
>>this section, passed a pilot proficiency check conducted by an
>>examiner, an approved pilot check airman, or a U.S. Armed Force, for a
>>PILOT certificate, rating, or operating privilege need not accomplish
>>the flight review required by this section
>>
>
>
>Given the fine line between certificate and pilot certificate. I do
>believe you are still legal according to this reg. After pilot
>certificate it states "rating, or operating privilege." A CFI is not
>a rating, but is an additional privilege so if you are looking for a
>fine line technicality you have it within the constructs of 61.56(d).
>
>There is also something called the spirit of the law which plays
>heavily in decisions made by courts where an issue is raised over such
>a minute detail. The spirit of this law appears to encompass all
>ratings/certificates so you really don't have a problem.
>
>As others have said...If you are worried about it have the guy who
>signed you off for the ride give you a BFR, I doubt he'd have a
>problem with it.
>
>z

[Brad Z]

An examiner won't likely sign you off. They're not supposed to instruct.
Your endorsing instructor could, though.

If tracking that instructor down is a problem, just do a BFR, dude. If you
instruct at a flight school, finding another CFI to fly with you and sign
you off shouldn't be a problem.

"BoDEAN" > wrote in message
...
> Even if it was a year ago??
>
>
> On Thu, 13 May 2004 15:21:26 GMT, zatatime
> > wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 13 May 2004 05:24:46 GMT, Greg Esres >
> >wrote:
> >
> >><<The FARs do not says that, nor does AOPA's legal department.>>
> >>
> >>Yes, the FARs do, as noted below. It says "pilot certificate", not
> >>"any certificate" as AOPA says.
> >>
> >>61.56
> >>...
> >>(d) A person who has, within the period specified in paragraph (c) of
> >>this section, passed a pilot proficiency check conducted by an
> >>examiner, an approved pilot check airman, or a U.S. Armed Force, for a
> >>PILOT certificate, rating, or operating privilege need not accomplish
> >>the flight review required by this section
> >>
> >
> >
> >Given the fine line between certificate and pilot certificate. I do
> >believe you are still legal according to this reg. After pilot
> >certificate it states "rating, or operating privilege." A CFI is not
> >a rating, but is an additional privilege so if you are looking for a
> >fine line technicality you have it within the constructs of 61.56(d).
> >
> >There is also something called the spirit of the law which plays
> >heavily in decisions made by courts where an issue is raised over such
> >a minute detail. The spirit of this law appears to encompass all
> >ratings/certificates so you really don't have a problem.
> >
> >As others have said...If you are worried about it have the guy who
> >signed you off for the ride give you a BFR, I doubt he'd have a
> >problem with it.
> >
> >z
>

[C J Campbell]

"Greg Esres" > wrote in message
...
> <<neither the FAA nor the AOPA have said that there is a requirement
> for the examiner to sign off the check ride as a>>
>
> The FAA said, via the FAQs:
>
> However, to make sure the applicant gets credit for successful
> completion of the Flight Review, the examiner should record that the
> §61.56 Flight Review was satisfactorily completed in the applicant's
> logbook.
>
>

Since when did "should" become "must?"

[C J Campbell]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
om...
> BoDEAN > wrote in message
>...
> > Can't get a clear cut answer from anyone on this....
> > Got my CFI last may, does my 24 calendar months start on that date til
> > when I need a BFR?
> > Or would I have to go back to my Multi Training for a starting date
>
> No, checkrides for an Instructor's certificate do not count toward a
> BFR. Only checkrides towards a Pilot certificate count. I had a guy at
> the FSDO actually try to explain it to me but I still don't think it
> makes sense. The FDSO guy said something like Instructor certificates
> do not specifically requiring flying, the checkride could be done by
> evaluation, not demonstration (different CFI examiners seem to do
> differing amount of evaluating vs. flying on the CFI checkrides).
> For some reason the FARs are very specific when they say "pilot
> certificate". I'm not sure if they were trying to exclude instructors
> or perhaps some A&Ps were trying to claim their A&P practical test
> from an examiner counted toward a BFR.

The FSDO guy is wrong. The CFI ride requires flying according to the PTS.
There is no avoiding it. Any FSDO guy who is that ignorant about the CFI
check ride is completely incompetent.

[Greg Esres]

<<Since when did "should" become "must?">>

Since when did an "instructor" certificate become a "pilot"
certificate?

In the end, it doesn't matter what Mr. Lynch or anyone else says on
the matter. The regulation reads the way it reads.

[Greg Esres]

<<I pay AOPA $52 each year for legal services. I called them. They
assured me that my CFI checkrides count. I'm set. :)>>

Here is the text of an email exchange I had with AOPA:

------------<snip>--------------------------------------
GE: Can you explain why your guide says that a "Flight test for any
certificate or rating" counts as a Flight Review when 61.56(d) clearly
says that only flight tests for PILOT certificates or ratings count?
(The Flight Instructor certificate is not a PILOT certificate.)

Thank you.


AOPA: Thank you for writing AOPA. Yes, you are correct a flight test
for a CFI is only counted as a flight review if you discuss it with
the examiner beforehand and he/she signs you off for one after the
test. If you need anything else please do not hesitate to email me
personally. Have a great day.

GE: Will AOPA correct its web page on the Flight Review with regards
to this?

AOPA: I already contacted the appropriate people. Thank you for your
email.

------------<snip>--------------------------------------

[BTIZ]

thanx Greg..

BT

"Greg Esres" > wrote in message
...
> <<I pay AOPA $52 each year for legal services. I called them. They
> assured me that my CFI checkrides count. I'm set. :)>>
>
> Here is the text of an email exchange I had with AOPA:
>
> ------------<snip>--------------------------------------
> GE: Can you explain why your guide says that a "Flight test for any
> certificate or rating" counts as a Flight Review when 61.56(d) clearly
> says that only flight tests for PILOT certificates or ratings count?
> (The Flight Instructor certificate is not a PILOT certificate.)
>
> Thank you.
>
>
> AOPA: Thank you for writing AOPA. Yes, you are correct a flight test
> for a CFI is only counted as a flight review if you discuss it with
> the examiner beforehand and he/she signs you off for one after the
> test. If you need anything else please do not hesitate to email me
> personally. Have a great day.
>
> GE: Will AOPA correct its web page on the Flight Review with regards
> to this?
>
> AOPA: I already contacted the appropriate people. Thank you for your
> email.
>
> ------------<snip>--------------------------------------