ATC clears takeoff aircraft for midair

[Joe Johnson]

I'm a newly minted PP-ASEL and had a disturbing experience the other day.
I've begun renting at the field where I trained, a busy class D airport.
It's usually not possible to do pattern work there because it's so busy.
Returning from a local flight, I noticed that there was very little traffic,
so I asked to do some touch & gos; I was making left traffic using runway
16. On the 3rd or 4th go, I noticed that a craft was cleared for takeoff on
runway 11. I knew immediately that our paths would cross. I could not see
the other plane as it was behind me; the other pilot was warned by the tower
that I was in the pattern making left traffic. The other pilot finally saw
me as I was turning crosswing to downwind (heading 70 to 340) and he
indicated he was turning right from his takeoff heading 110. When I caught
sight of him, I don't think we were more than 100'-200' apart. At this
point, I said "traffic in sight" and tower replied "maintain visual
separation." If I had it to do again, I would have left the pattern and
headed outbound heading somewhere between 160 (my departure heading) and 110
(the other pilot's) until we had positive visual identification.

I'd be especially interested in comments from Gene Whitt, who said ATC has
been trying to kill him for 40 years, and anyone who might recognize the
airport from the runways described.

[EDR]

It is not unusual for such examples to occur.
It happens on approach to landings, also.
The CDAS towered field I fly out of is the third busiest in our state
(100k+ operations) and is the training base for a large university.
Students and experienced pilots alike have come close on multiple
occassions in the 25 years I have been flying here.
This seems to have happened more frequently since the field was dropped
as an FAA staffed facility to a contract facility.

[Roy Smith]

"Joe Johnson" > wrote:
> I'm a newly minted PP-ASEL and had a disturbing experience the other day.
> I've begun renting at the field where I trained, a busy class D airport.
> It's usually not possible to do pattern work there because it's so busy.
> Returning from a local flight, I noticed that there was very little traffic,
> so I asked to do some touch & gos; I was making left traffic using runway
> 16. On the 3rd or 4th go, I noticed that a craft was cleared for takeoff on
> runway 11.

I'm guessing we're talking about HPN?

> I knew immediately that our paths would cross. I could not see
> the other plane as it was behind me; the other pilot was warned by the tower
> that I was in the pattern making left traffic. The other pilot finally saw
> me as I was turning crosswing to downwind (heading 70 to 340) and he
> indicated he was turning right from his takeoff heading 110. When I caught
> sight of him, I don't think we were more than 100'-200' apart. At this
> point, I said "traffic in sight" and tower replied "maintain visual
> separation." If I had it to do again, I would have left the pattern and
> headed outbound heading somewhere between 160 (my departure heading) and 110
> (the other pilot's) until we had positive visual identification.

The lesson here is that it's your job to keep a good lookout for
traffic. Doesn't matter if you're IFR, VFR, talking to a controller,
etc. Always keep a good traffic watch, and do whatever you gotta do to
keep from hitting other airplanes. The tower's sole responsibility is
to sequence traffic and provide separation on the runways and taxiways.
Regardless of all the instructions and warnings they might give you,
legally if you are VFR at a class D airport, the primary responsibility
for avoiding other traffic rests with you.

One thing you should realize about the phrase "maintain visual
separation". It's more than just a suggestion, it's the controller's
way (for the benefit of the tape recording) of legally transferring
separation responsibility to you.

[Joe Johnson]

Yes indeed, Roy, it's HPN. I'm aware of and agree with everything you said.
I'm upset with myself for not following my first impulse, which was to
continue outbound until the other pilot and I had visual contact. This was
Sunday night, and I was unfamiliar with this particular controller.
Listening to the radio traffic, I noticed she had something of an attitude
problem. Have you had this experience?

[C J Campbell]

The tower at a class D airport does not provide much in the way of traffic
separation. They schedule takeoffs and landings and that is about it. They
don't have to tell you when to turn crosswind to downwind, or what heading a
departing aircraft is to take. If you want that kind of service you need to
fly out of class B airports. It is up to the pilots to look out for one
another.

[Roy Smith]

In article >,
"Joe Johnson" > wrote:

> Yes indeed, Roy, it's HPN. I'm aware of and agree with everything you said.
> I'm upset with myself for not following my first impulse, which was to
> continue outbound until the other pilot and I had visual contact. This was
> Sunday night, and I was unfamiliar with this particular controller.
> Listening to the radio traffic, I noticed she had something of an attitude
> problem. Have you had this experience?

The controllers at HPN are pretty good. Sure, they make mistakes on
occassion, but so do all of us. I figure if my error rate was as low as
theirs, I'd be a pretty good pilot.

HPN is a really challenging environment for both pilots and controllers.
First, the mix of traffic is unlike anything you'll see anywhere else.
Lot's of GA, lots of student training, bizjets, turboprops, more
helicopters than you can shake a stick at, and of course scheduled
airlines. Not to mention the occasional blimp. About the only thing
I've never seen at HPN is a glider or an ultralight :-) The airport
layout has two intersecting runways, with many pairs of runway ends not
visible from each other. Cram all that into a complex airspace where
the flow of things is really driven by the flow of heavy metal into LGA,
JFK, and EWR, and it's a mess. Keep your eyes open and your head on a
swivel.

As for attitude, it's really hard to infer subjective things like
emotion and attitude over the radio. I wouldn't read too much into it.

[Jay Honeck]

> The tower at a class D airport does not provide much in the way of traffic
> separation. They schedule takeoffs and landings and that is about it.

Which is why, IMHO, Class D airspace is the single most dangerous airspace
around.

The designation of "Class D" provides the veneer of controlled airspace
without any real substance, and lulls the unwary into a false sense of
security.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Newps]

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...


> One thing you should realize about the phrase "maintain visual
> separation". It's more than just a suggestion, it's the controller's
> way (for the benefit of the tape recording) of legally transferring
> separation responsibility to you.

There's no reason for a class D tower controller to ever use the phrase
"maintain visual separation" to two VFR aircraft. There was no separation
standard in the first place, thus nothing to transfer to the pilot.

[Newps]

"Joe Johnson" > wrote in message
. ..
> I'm a newly minted PP-ASEL and had a disturbing experience the other day.
> I've begun renting at the field where I trained, a busy class D airport.
> It's usually not possible to do pattern work there because it's so busy.
> Returning from a local flight, I noticed that there was very little
traffic,
> so I asked to do some touch & gos; I was making left traffic using runway
> 16. On the 3rd or 4th go, I noticed that a craft was cleared for takeoff
on
> runway 11. I knew immediately that our paths would cross. I could not
see
> the other plane as it was behind me; the other pilot was warned by the
tower
> that I was in the pattern making left traffic. The other pilot finally
saw
> me as I was turning crosswing to downwind (heading 70 to 340) and he
> indicated he was turning right from his takeoff heading 110. When I
caught
> sight of him, I don't think we were more than 100'-200' apart. At this
> point, I said "traffic in sight" and tower replied "maintain visual
> separation."

So far this is all normal VFR tower stuff.



If I had it to do again, I would have left the pattern and
> headed outbound heading somewhere between 160 (my departure heading) and
110
> (the other pilot's) until we had positive visual identification.

This would only make it worse.


>
> I'd be especially interested in comments from Gene Whitt, who said ATC has
> been trying to kill him for 40 years, and anyone who might recognize the
> airport from the runways described.


I worked at a busy VFR tower for four years. That's exactly what happens
every day. We're still trying to get Gene, he's a little slippery though.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Joe Johnson" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> I'm a newly minted PP-ASEL and had a disturbing experience the
> other day. I've begun renting at the field where I trained, a busy
> class D airport. It's usually not possible to do pattern work there
> because it's so busy. Returning from a local flight, I noticed that
> there was very little traffic, so I asked to do some touch & gos; I
> was making left traffic using runway 16. On the 3rd or 4th go, I
> noticed that a craft was cleared for takeoff on runway 11. I
> knew immediately that our paths would cross. I could not see
> the other plane as it was behind me; the other pilot was warned
> by the tower that I was in the pattern making left traffic. The other
> pilot finally saw me as I was turning crosswing to downwind
> (heading 70 to 340) and he indicated he was turning right from
> his takeoff heading 110. When I caught sight of him, I don't think
> we were more than 100'-200' apart. At this point, I said "traffic
> in sight" and tower replied "maintain visual separation." If I had it
> to do again, I would have left the pattern and headed outbound
> heading somewhere between 160 (my departure heading) and 110
> (the other pilot's) until we had positive visual identification.
>
> I'd be especially interested in comments from Gene Whitt, who
> said ATC has been trying to kill him for 40 years, and anyone
> who might recognize the airport from the runways described.
>

ATC does not separate VFR traffic in Class D airspace, separation is
provided only on the ground. ATC's responsibilities in this case were to
insure you and the departing aircraft did not occupy the runway intersection
at the same time, and traffic advisories. That being said, there's no point
in having aircraft cross paths if they don't need to. You only mention the
one other aircraft, assuming there was no other traffic the tower could have
had you make right traffic for at least one circuit. That way you only
cross paths at the intersection, where ATC must ensure separation. The
controller may not have thought it was necessary, but you could have
requested it.

[Newps]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...


> The tower at a class D airport does not provide much in the way of traffic
> separation.

None, except on the runway.

They schedule takeoffs and landings and that is about it.

Really?


They
> don't have to tell you when to turn crosswind to downwind,

But they can and often do to keep the flow of traffic running smooth.


or what heading a
> departing aircraft is to take.

You don't get headings but you may be told not to turn before you cross the
farmhouse over yonder.

[Marco Leon]

I gotta disagree with you Jay. I fly out of a busier airport than HPN--FRG
also in NY. It's class D as well and I shudder when I think about that
airport not having a control tower. It's far from perfect but the
controllers do their best to try and warn pilots of nearby aircraft even
though it's not their responsibility. What would your solution be? Make
Class C the first airspace designation with towers? Make all Class D's Class
C's? Give Class D ATC separation responsibilities? The last solution would
require prohibitively expensive radar upgrades.

Marco

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:734pc.91269$Ik.6994445@attbi_s53...
> > The tower at a class D airport does not provide much in the way of
traffic
> > separation. They schedule takeoffs and landings and that is about it.
>
> Which is why, IMHO, Class D airspace is the single most dangerous airspace
> around.
>
> The designation of "Class D" provides the veneer of controlled airspace
> without any real substance, and lulls the unwary into a false sense of
> security.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>




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[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
>
> The lesson here is that it's your job to keep a good lookout for
> traffic. Doesn't matter if you're IFR, VFR, talking to a controller,
> etc. Always keep a good traffic watch, and do whatever you
> gotta do to keep from hitting other airplanes. The tower's sole
> responsibility is to sequence traffic and provide separation on
> the runways and taxiways. Regardless of all the instructions
> and warnings they might give you, legally if you are VFR at a
> class D airport, the primary responsibility for avoiding other
> traffic rests with you.
>
> One thing you should realize about the phrase "maintain visual
> separation". It's more than just a suggestion, it's the controller's
> way (for the benefit of the tape recording) of legally transferring
> separation responsibility to you.
>

How can "maintain visual separation" transfer separation responsibility from
the tower to the pilot if, as you said earlier, the tower has no
responsibility for separation?

[Ron Natalie]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message <><
> If you want that kind of service you need to
> fly out of class B airports. It is up to the pilots to look out for one
> another.

Even class B airports expect you to be able to navigate on yor own.
They do however provided separation to everybody.

[Larry Dighera]

On Fri, 14 May 2004 09:59:38 -0400, "Marco Leon"
<mleon(at)optonline.net> wrote in Message-Id:
>:

>What would your solution be? Make
>Class C the first airspace designation with towers? Make all Class D's Class
>C's?

IIRC, VFR flights within Class C airspace are not separated from each
other either. Only IFR flights are provided separation from other
aircraft within Class C airspace.


--

Irrational beliefs ultimately lead to irrational acts.
-- Larry Dighera,

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Marco Leon" <mleon(at)optonline.net> wrote in message
...
>
> I gotta disagree with you Jay. I fly out of a busier airport than
> HPN--FRG also in NY. It's class D as well and I shudder when
> I think about that airport not having a control tower. It's far from
> perfect but the controllers do their best to try and warn pilots of
> nearby aircraft even though it's not their responsibility. What
> would your solution be? Make Class C the first airspace
> designation with towers? Make all Class D's Class C's? Give
> Class D ATC separation responsibilities? The last solution
> would require prohibitively expensive radar upgrades.
>

ATC doesn't provide VFR/VFR separation in Class C airspace either.

[Andrew Gideon]

Newps wrote:

> There's no reason for a class D tower controller to ever use the phrase
> "maintain visual separation" to two VFR aircraft. There was no separation
> standard in the first place, thus nothing to transfer to the pilot.

I was wondering that too. More, in all my experiences with class D airports
(I'm based at CDW, but I've been to TEB several times, HPN once, SWF a lot,
....) I don't think I've ever heard that expression used.

BTW, my experience at TEB is limited (perhaps a dozen visits there), but my
club moved out of there just about when I joined. A lot of people have
complained about the difference in "control quality" between TEB and CDW.
In my limited experience, I have to agree: TEB always seemed much more
tightly managed than CDW.

I'd guess that one difference is the training volume. TEB has (or had, at
any rate) a fair bit of GA training, but nobody did pattern work there.
They all left for places like CDW, MGJ, for that.

- Andrew

[Andrew Gideon]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> The designation of "Class D" provides the veneer of controlled airspace
> without any real substance, and lulls the unwary into a false sense of
> security.

The key word here is "unwary". That should never be applicable to a pilot.
That is, no pilot flying should be capable of assuming separation in D
airspace.

So there is no "veneer". We all know from our training: class D is
"unseparated" (a reasonable term, I think {8^) airspace.

- Andrew

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
gonline.com...
>
> So there is no "veneer". We all know from our training: class D is
> "unseparated" (a reasonable term, I think {8^) airspace.
>

As long as you're talking about VFR/VFR or VFR/IFR separation.

[Richard Russell]

On Fri, 14 May 2004 13:44:35 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>> The tower at a class D airport does not provide much in the way of traffic
>> separation. They schedule takeoffs and landings and that is about it.
>
>Which is why, IMHO, Class D airspace is the single most dangerous airspace
>around.
>
>The designation of "Class D" provides the veneer of controlled airspace
>without any real substance, and lulls the unwary into a false sense of
>security.


You hit that nail right on the head. The combination of pilots'
unrealistic expectations and poor position reporting is a recipe for
disaster. Add an inattentive controller in and you have an exciting
invironment. "D" for danger.

Rich Russell

[Jay Honeck]

> I gotta disagree with you Jay. I fly out of a busier airport than HPN--FRG
> also in NY. It's class D as well and I shudder when I think about that
> airport not having a control tower. It's far from perfect but the
> controllers do their best to try and warn pilots of nearby aircraft even
> though it's not their responsibility. What would your solution be?

I hear what you're saying, but to call non-radar airspace such as MOST Class
D "controlled" is (again, IMHO) wrong.

Call it "semi-controlled" or "ground separation only" or "we hope to see you
with our binoculars" -- do anything but call it "controlled"...cuz it ain't.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Marco Leon]

Your're right. I should have said TRSA.
"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Marco Leon" <mleon(at)optonline.net> wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > I gotta disagree with you Jay. I fly out of a busier airport than
> > HPN--FRG also in NY. It's class D as well and I shudder when
> > I think about that airport not having a control tower. It's far from
> > perfect but the controllers do their best to try and warn pilots of
> > nearby aircraft even though it's not their responsibility. What
> > would your solution be? Make Class C the first airspace
> > designation with towers? Make all Class D's Class C's? Give
> > Class D ATC separation responsibilities? The last solution
> > would require prohibitively expensive radar upgrades.
> >
>
> ATC doesn't provide VFR/VFR separation in Class C airspace either.
>
>




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[Marco Leon]

I see that as more of a problem with educating the pilots as opposed to a
problem with the airspace itself. But I see your point.

Marco

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:%Q5pc.241$gr.25776@attbi_s52...
> > I gotta disagree with you Jay. I fly out of a busier airport than
HPN--FRG
> > also in NY. It's class D as well and I shudder when I think about that
> > airport not having a control tower. It's far from perfect but the
> > controllers do their best to try and warn pilots of nearby aircraft even
> > though it's not their responsibility. What would your solution be?
>
> I hear what you're saying, but to call non-radar airspace such as MOST
Class
> D "controlled" is (again, IMHO) wrong.
>
> Call it "semi-controlled" or "ground separation only" or "we hope to see
you
> with our binoculars" -- do anything but call it "controlled"...cuz it
ain't.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>




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[Roy Smith]

In article <%Q5pc.241$gr.25776@attbi_s52>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> > I gotta disagree with you Jay. I fly out of a busier airport than HPN--FRG
> > also in NY. It's class D as well and I shudder when I think about that
> > airport not having a control tower. It's far from perfect but the
> > controllers do their best to try and warn pilots of nearby aircraft even
> > though it's not their responsibility. What would your solution be?
>
> I hear what you're saying, but to call non-radar airspace such as MOST Class
> D "controlled" is (again, IMHO) wrong.
>
> Call it "semi-controlled" or "ground separation only" or "we hope to see you
> with our binoculars" -- do anything but call it "controlled"...cuz it ain't.

Controlled has a very specific meaning -- it means ATC can provide
separation services to IFR aircraft. It includes classes A, B, C, D,
and E (at least in the US).

[Richard Russell]

On Fri, 14 May 2004 09:59:38 -0400, "Marco Leon"
<mleon(at)optonline.net> wrote:

>I gotta disagree with you Jay. I fly out of a busier airport than HPN--FRG
>also in NY. It's class D as well and I shudder when I think about that
>airport not having a control tower. It's far from perfect but the
>controllers do their best to try and warn pilots of nearby aircraft even
>though it's not their responsibility. What would your solution be? Make
>Class C the first airspace designation with towers? Make all Class D's Class
>C's? Give Class D ATC separation responsibilities? The last solution would
>require prohibitively expensive radar upgrades.
>
>Marco
>
I agree with Jay about Class D being the most dangerous airspace to
fly in. That doesn't mean that you're wrong, though. Even though I
believe that they are dangerous areas, I do not advocate eliminating
the towers and I do understand the problems associated with upgrading
to Class C or even D with radar. I think that we simply need to
recognize that the ingredients for problems are all there and we need
to be extra diligent while flying there. It's just the nature of the
beast. I don't have a better solution for the problem.

Rich Russell

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:%Q5pc.241$gr.25776@attbi_s52...
>
> I hear what you're saying, but to call non-radar airspace such as
> MOST Class D "controlled" is (again, IMHO) wrong.
>

I don't have any figures, but I'd expect most Class D airspace does have
radar coverage. In any case, Class D airspace that does not have radar
coverage is just as controlled as Class D airspace that does.


>
> Call it "semi-controlled" or "ground separation only" or "we hope to
> see you with our binoculars" -- do anything but call it "controlled"
> ...cuz it ain't.
>

Do you consider Class E airspace uncontrolled as well? How do you
differentiate between Class E and Class G?

[Joe Johnson]

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Joe Johnson" > wrote in message
> . ..

<snip>

> If I had it to do again, I would have left the pattern and
> > headed outbound heading somewhere between 160 (my departure heading) and
> 110
> > (the other pilot's) until we had positive visual identification.
>
> This would only make it worse.

How so? I was proposing to follow a non-crossing trajectory.

[Joe Johnson]

Thanks Roy. I've enjoyed your informative posts & hope to meet you one day.
(Don't look for Joe Johnson--it's a pseudonym I use to avoid spam.)

[Peter Duniho]

"Joe Johnson" > wrote in message
m...
> [...] (Don't look for Joe Johnson--it's a pseudonym I use to avoid spam.)

Spammers don't care what your name is. They only look at your email
address. Pseudonyms do nothing to affect whether you get spam or not.

[Jeff]

your experience is not unusual, a couple of months ago, I was on base for
runway 12R, I was comming from the east, tower called me and said I had traffic
at my 9 o'clock, I looked and all I saw was the belly of a cessna going over
me, I called tower back and said "that was kinda close dont you think"
all he said was "roger"

a few months ago we also had a arrow that was landing, land on a malibu (think
it was a malibu) who was departing on the cross runway. this was at the same
airport.


Joe Johnson wrote:

> I'm a newly minted PP-ASEL and had a disturbing experience the other day.
> I've begun renting at the field where I trained, a busy class D airport.
> It's usually not possible to do pattern work there because it's so busy.
> Returning from a local flight, I noticed that there was very little traffic,
> so I asked to do some touch & gos; I was making left traffic using runway
> 16. On the 3rd or 4th go, I noticed that a craft was cleared for takeoff on
> runway 11. I knew immediately that our paths would cross. I could not see
> the other plane as it was behind me; the other pilot was warned by the tower
> that I was in the pattern making left traffic. The other pilot finally saw
> me as I was turning crosswing to downwind (heading 70 to 340) and he
> indicated he was turning right from his takeoff heading 110. When I caught
> sight of him, I don't think we were more than 100'-200' apart. At this
> point, I said "traffic in sight" and tower replied "maintain visual
> separation." If I had it to do again, I would have left the pattern and
> headed outbound heading somewhere between 160 (my departure heading) and 110
> (the other pilot's) until we had positive visual identification.
>
> I'd be especially interested in comments from Gene Whitt, who said ATC has
> been trying to kill him for 40 years, and anyone who might recognize the
> airport from the runways described.

[Andrew Gideon]

Roy Smith wrote:

> Controlled has a very specific meaning -- it means ATC can provide
> separation services to IFR aircraft. It includes classes A, B, C, D,
> and E (at least in the US).

Which is why I've just today invented the new term "separated airspace".

- Andrew

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
online.com...
>
> Which is why I've just today invented the new term
> "separated airspace".
>

How do you do that without creating a vacuum? Vacuums suck.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
online.com...
>
> Which is why I've just today invented the new term
> "separated airspace".
>

How does "separated airspace" differ from controlled airspace?

[Jay Honeck]

> Do you consider Class E airspace uncontrolled as well? How do you
> differentiate between Class E and Class G?

In practical, day-to-day terms, I don't.

Of course, I'm VFR.

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[BTIZ]

Last fall the local Class D tower cleared a Piper Arrow to land on Rwy 12R
and then cleared a Piper Malibu JetProp to take off on Rwy 7.

Yep, you guessed it, they met at the intersection, flipped the Arrow onto
it's back, totaled, pilot crawled out the side window and spent a few hours
at the local hospital, but he was home the same night. The Malibu had damage
to the engine and firewall, and a few other bumps and scratches.

The tower had full view of all of the runways.

BT

"Joe Johnson" > wrote in message
. ..
> I'm a newly minted PP-ASEL and had a disturbing experience the other day.
> I've begun renting at the field where I trained, a busy class D airport.
> It's usually not possible to do pattern work there because it's so busy.
> Returning from a local flight, I noticed that there was very little
traffic,
> so I asked to do some touch & gos; I was making left traffic using runway
> 16. On the 3rd or 4th go, I noticed that a craft was cleared for takeoff
on
> runway 11. I knew immediately that our paths would cross. I could not
see
> the other plane as it was behind me; the other pilot was warned by the
tower
> that I was in the pattern making left traffic. The other pilot finally
saw
> me as I was turning crosswing to downwind (heading 70 to 340) and he
> indicated he was turning right from his takeoff heading 110. When I
caught
> sight of him, I don't think we were more than 100'-200' apart. At this
> point, I said "traffic in sight" and tower replied "maintain visual
> separation." If I had it to do again, I would have left the pattern and
> headed outbound heading somewhere between 160 (my departure heading) and
110
> (the other pilot's) until we had positive visual identification.
>
> I'd be especially interested in comments from Gene Whitt, who said ATC has
> been trying to kill him for 40 years, and anyone who might recognize the
> airport from the runways described.
>
>

[[email protected]]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:<734pc.91269$Ik.6994445@attbi_s53>...
> > The tower at a class D airport does not provide much in the way of traffic
> > separation. They schedule takeoffs and landings and that is about it.
>
> Which is why, IMHO, Class D airspace is the single most dangerous airspace
> around.
>

Class "A" - Above
Class "B" - Busy
Class "C" - Crowded
Class "D" - Dangerous
Class "E" - Enjoyable
Class "G" - Greatest of all

[Newps]

"Joe Johnson" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Newps" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Joe Johnson" > wrote in message
> > . ..
>
> <snip>
>
> > If I had it to do again, I would have left the pattern and
> > > headed outbound heading somewhere between 160 (my departure heading)
and
> > 110
> > > (the other pilot's) until we had positive visual identification.
> >
> > This would only make it worse.
>
> How so? I was proposing to follow a non-crossing trajectory.

It's a busy place. It makes no sense to leave the pattern and get in more
peoples way. It is easy for a departing aircraft to miss another that he
can plainly see.

[Newps]

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
>
> IIRC, VFR flights within Class C airspace are not separated from each
> other either.

Technically no but practically yes. If you are approaching to land you have
to be sequenced to whoever you will be following.

[Bushleague]

You have never spotted for Tuna or Swordfish as a kid...

Have a great one!

Bush

On Fri, 14 May 2004 12:08:41 GMT, "Joe Johnson" >
wrote:

>I'm a newly minted PP-ASEL and had a disturbing experience the other day.
>I've begun renting at the field where I trained, a busy class D airport.
>It's usually not possible to do pattern work there because it's so busy.
>Returning from a local flight, I noticed that there was very little traffic,
>so I asked to do some touch & gos; I was making left traffic using runway
>16. On the 3rd or 4th go, I noticed that a craft was cleared for takeoff on
>runway 11. I knew immediately that our paths would cross. I could not see
>the other plane as it was behind me; the other pilot was warned by the tower
>that I was in the pattern making left traffic. The other pilot finally saw
>me as I was turning crosswing to downwind (heading 70 to 340) and he
>indicated he was turning right from his takeoff heading 110. When I caught
>sight of him, I don't think we were more than 100'-200' apart. At this
>point, I said "traffic in sight" and tower replied "maintain visual
>separation." If I had it to do again, I would have left the pattern and
>headed outbound heading somewhere between 160 (my departure heading) and 110
>(the other pilot's) until we had positive visual identification.
>
>I'd be especially interested in comments from Gene Whitt, who said ATC has
>been trying to kill him for 40 years, and anyone who might recognize the
>airport from the runways described.
>

[Gene Whitt]

Y'All,
I don't know why I always get blamed for the things I do. But in response
to the request below I will give some techniques I have used to improve my
survival odds above those of just plain dumb luck.
Jay wrote:
"I'd be especially interested in comments from Gene Whitt, who said ATC has
been trying to kill him for 40 years, and anyone who might recognize the
airport from the runways described."
It takes more than luck to be an old pilot.

--I always clear the final and bases before taking a runway.

--My preferred departure request is always a "270 on course to my
destination.
--This puts me above the pattern altitude quickly and clear of the
usual arrival paths.
--The "On Course" request is a far more specific notice to other pilots of
my intentions and path.

--When I an at anything other than pattern altitude I always inform ATC, not
that it means anything to them, I am talking beyond ATC to any aircraft on
the frequency.
--When I arrive at an airport I never report at a reporting point. I
call-up 1-2 miles to one side of the point and always at an altitude that is
other than ending in thousands or five-hundreds. Usually at
2300 or 2700 above airport elevation.
--I do not arrive on IFR approach corridors.
--When choice exists I will take the smaller runway.
--My preferred arrival is a base entry
--My most interesting arrival was a base entry over the numbers at pattern
altitude with a 270 short approach to the runway.
--If a conflicting aircraft fails to give altitude I query ATC to find out
altitude.

There are others but this should give some ideas of how to survive
at a Class D airport.

Gene Whitt

[G.R. Patterson III]

Gene Whitt wrote:
>
> --My preferred departure request is always a "270 on course to my
> destination.

Would you please provide a detailed description of what this is?

George Patterson
I childproofed my house, but they *still* get in.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Gene Whitt" > wrote in message
k.net...
>
> I don't know why I always get blamed for the things I do.
>

Should someone else be blamed for the things you do?

[Teacherjh]

>>
--My preferred departure request is always a "270 on course to my
destination.
<<

I take it you turn 270 degrees (the long way) towards your destination, which
is 90 degrees to your takeoff direction? My destinations aren't always in that
direction, but anyway, what does this buy you (other than a climbing clearing
turn)? Or is that what you want? (I'd want to get away from the airport)
>>
--The "On Course" request is a far more specific notice to other pilots of
my intentions and path.


--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Teacherjh]

<< (continued, sorry!)

only if they already know your course.

>> --My preferred arrival is a base entry

Why?

>>
--My most interesting arrival was a base entry over the numbers at pattern
altitude with a 270 short approach to the runway.
<<

I wouldn't call this a base entry, but perhaps that's just semantics. You
crossed the runway (though not midfield) and entered a (very short) downwind.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[tony roberts]

> I'd be especially interested in comments from Gene Whitt, who said ATC has
> been trying to kill him for 40 years, and anyone who might recognize the
> airport from the runways described.

Nah - it would take a LOT more than ATC to kill Gene Whitt :):):)
Did you check out his website yet? - Best aviation website on the net.
Gene has taught me a lot through this group and through his site.
Thanks Gene.

Tony

--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Almost Instrument :)
Cessna 172H C-GICE

[Jürgen Exner]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>> I gotta disagree with you Jay. I fly out of a busier airport than
>> HPN--FRG also in NY. It's class D as well and I shudder when I think
>> about that airport not having a control tower. It's far from perfect
>> but the controllers do their best to try and warn pilots of nearby
>> aircraft even though it's not their responsibility. What would your
>> solution be?
>
> I hear what you're saying, but to call non-radar airspace such as
> MOST Class D "controlled" is (again, IMHO) wrong.
>
> Call it "semi-controlled" or "ground separation only" or "we hope to
> see you with our binoculars" -- do anything but call it
> "controlled"...cuz it ain't.

Aren't you forgetting about class E?
That is labeled "controlled", too, but hopefully even the dumbest pilot
would not expect VFR traffic separation by ATC in class E.

jue

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"tony roberts" > wrote in message
...
>
> Nah - it would take a LOT more than ATC to kill Gene Whitt :):):)
> Did you check out his website yet? - Best aviation website on the net.
> Gene has taught me a lot through this group and through his site.
>

I perused just a couple of pages of his website a few years ago and found
them riddled with errors.

[Gene Whitt]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
G.R.
The 270 departure is, when appropriate for your destination a climbing turn
that takes you back directly over the airport well above pattern altitude.
The beauty of it goes beyond traffic avoidance. The course line on your
charts go from airport to airport. Normal departures take you two or more
miles off course
before you turn in the direction you want to go. You have to turn to
intercept your chart line centered on the airport. The 270 can give you a
new start time from over the airport and a heading line
corresponding to your line on the chart. All you should do is ask for it at
controlled airports and advise traffic of your intentions at uncontrrolled
airports.
Gene.

[Gene Whitt]

"Steven P. McNicoll" <
Regarding Steven's remarks regarding blame and being riddled with errors. I
am very much in agreement with him. The ability to take responsibility for
what you have done and will do is part of a good pilot's flying attitude.
Likewise the willingness to make mistakes and survive is an attitude I have
because it keeps me flying.

My opinions, and that is mostly what I write, are not absolute truths. Very
little in life or flying is so absolute. What we have is choices of
options. Some choices are going to be as wrong as the options chosen. The
surest sign of a skilled craftsman in his art is to make his mistakes look
like he did them on purpose. This applies to flying as much as anything
else.

It is not just my web site and two or three pages that are riddled with
mistakes. My whole life has been based upon a series of mistakes. I made a
lousy selection of parents and relatives. I had
four stepmothers and four stepfathers before I was ten.and before it became
popular. I learned far more out of school than I did in schools all
different fifteedn of them. I like to say I became a school teacher to
get even. I left teachers college without a credential because I condemmed
their program for being a waste of my life. I told them blatently what was
wrong. After I left they made some changes I suggested. It didn't change
things. Still a waste of time in most respects. This is why teachers are
the worst products coming from colleges. The good teachers are thus so in
spite of what they didn't learn in college.

Would I change my life, do I have regrets? Yes! However, I grew
through my problems and mistakes to be above concern or fault finding. I
got lucky. Fifty-seven years with a wife who hasn't been able to perfect
me. She sees me as a work in progress. I am still a constant source of
criticism and blame. I love it because she cares and her caring is enough
for me

I have always had flying as a major factor in my life. I lived model
airplanes and flying magazines as a child. I cannot, to this day, let a
plane fly overhead without looking and identifying. As a teacher I found
time to get lucky and .earn enough to get out of school teaching and into
flying.

I don't fly for a living, I don't have to. Don't think I could. Don't
charge enough for my time and expenses but one year out of three. When you
love what you are doing it keeps you going and going and going. Thanks
GUYS...
Gene
Sorry for the rant but it seems to go with the age..

[Jay Honeck]

> Aren't you forgetting about class E?
> That is labeled "controlled", too, but hopefully even the dumbest pilot
> would not expect VFR traffic separation by ATC in class E.

We're talking about tower-controlled airspace here, methinks.

Are there any Class E towers?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Fifty-seven years with a wife who hasn't been able to perfect
> me. She sees me as a work in progress.

FIFTY-SEVEN YEARS?

You've got my vote for sainthood, Gene...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:gispc.6931$qA.780317@attbi_s51...
> > Fifty-seven years with a wife who hasn't been able to perfect
> > me. She sees me as a work in progress.
>
> FIFTY-SEVEN YEARS?
>
> You've got my vote for sainthood, Gene...
>
> ;-)
His wife gets my vote for the new patron saint of patience.

(BTW...who is the old one?)

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:mdspc.6907$qA.776955@attbi_s51...
>
> We're talking about tower-controlled airspace here, methinks.
>

We're talking about towers in Class D airspace. Most of them do not control
the airspace.


>
> Are there any Class E towers?
>

Yes, but a tower in Class E airspace is always a temporary situation. It's
either a temporary tower set up for some special event or a new tower in an
existing Class E surface area that will eventually become Class D airspace.

[Jay Honeck]

> > Are there any Class E towers?
> >
>
> Yes, but a tower in Class E airspace is always a temporary situation.
It's
> either a temporary tower set up for some special event or a new tower in
an
> existing Class E surface area that will eventually become Class D
airspace.

I forgot about those "grain-truck" towers the FAA sets up from time to time.
Always feel sorry for them, out there baking in the hot sun...

We get one each year in Iowa City, for our annual fly-in breakfast.
(Which, incidentally, is August 29th this year.)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:NWspc.54981$iF6.4958503@attbi_s02...
>
> I forgot about those "grain-truck" towers the FAA sets up from
> time to time.
> Always feel sorry for them, out there baking in the hot sun...
>

I've only been in one, at FLD. It was air-conditioned.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:NWspc.54981$iF6.4958503@attbi_s02...
>
> I forgot about those "grain-truck" towers the FAA sets up from time to
time.
> Always feel sorry for them, out there baking in the hot sun...
>
> We get one each year in Iowa City, for our annual fly-in breakfast.
> (Which, incidentally, is August 29th this year.)


If I fly all the way there, I expect lunch and maybe even an afternoon snack
as well.

[Jay Honeck]

> If I fly all the way there, I expect lunch and maybe even an afternoon
snack
> as well.

Heck, I'll even throw in a cold beer!

Oops -- I'm contributing to the delinquency of a pilot again. Sorry...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> I've only been in one, at FLD. It was air-conditioned.

Pansies.

Our ATC guys can lick *their* ATC guys, any day...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Joe Johnson]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message
...
> "Joe Johnson" > wrote in message
> m...
> > [...] (Don't look for Joe Johnson--it's a pseudonym I use to avoid
spam.)
>
> Spammers don't care what your name is. They only look at your email
> address. Pseudonyms do nothing to affect whether you get spam or not.

Oh, OK. Now I know. Thanks.

[Newps]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:NWspc.54981$iF6.4958503@attbi_s02...


> I forgot about those "grain-truck" towers the FAA sets up from time to
time.
> Always feel sorry for them, out there baking in the hot sun...

We have a portable tower built on about a 40 foot gooseneck trailer. We use
it when we set up a tower for a forest fire. Has heat and A/C.

[atis118]

Hi Jay,

Yes, in order for a towered Airport to be class "D" it must have
surface based weather observation cabability, if not it is class "E"
and in some cases class "G" airspace. And as I believe others have
already said, only Class "B" airspace provides VFR seperation, hence
the 3SM visibility, clear of clouds VFR minimum.

Greg King
Dakota N2957F


"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:<mdspc.6907$qA.776955@attbi_s51>...
> > Aren't you forgetting about class E?
> > That is labeled "controlled", too, but hopefully even the dumbest pilot
> > would not expect VFR traffic separation by ATC in class E.
>
> We're talking about tower-controlled airspace here, methinks.
>
> Are there any Class E towers?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"atis118" > wrote in message
om...
>
> Yes, in order for a towered Airport to be class "D" it must have
> surface based weather observation cabability, if not it is class "E"
> and in some cases class "G" airspace.
>

That's not correct. All surface areas, Class B, C, D or E, require weather
reporting capability.


>
> And as I believe others have
> already said, only Class "B" airspace provides VFR seperation, hence
> the 3SM visibility, clear of clouds VFR minimum.
>

Class C airspace provides separation between VFR and IFR aircraft, TRSAs
provide it between all participating aircraft.

[StallFearer]

On Sun, 16 May 2004 13:47:43 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
> wrote:

>
>"atis118" > wrote in message
om...
>>
>> Yes, in order for a towered Airport to be class "D" it must have
>> surface based weather observation cabability, if not it is class "E"
>> and in some cases class "G" airspace.
>>
>
>That's not correct. All surface areas, Class B, C, D or E, require weather
>reporting capability.
>

Would a radio to phone link to FSS qualify for a class e airport?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"StallFearer" > wrote in message
...
>
> Would a radio to phone link to FSS qualify for a class e airport?
>

With regard to weather reporting? I don't understand your question.

[StallFearer]

On Sun, 16 May 2004 15:28:30 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
> wrote:

>
>"StallFearer" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> Would a radio to phone link to FSS qualify for a class e airport?
>>
>
>With regard to weather reporting? I don't understand your question.
>

Yes, with regard to the weather reporting requirement mentioned higher
in the thread.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"StallFearer" > wrote in message
...
>
> Yes, with regard to the weather reporting requirement mentioned higher
> in the thread.
>

But what's your question?

[Newps]

"StallFearer" > wrote in message
...
>
> Would a radio to phone link to FSS qualify for a class e airport?

No. Class E or G airports are temporary in nature.

[atis118]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message . net>...
> "atis118" > wrote in message
> om...
> >
> > Yes, in order for a towered Airport to be class "D" it must have
> > surface based weather observation cabability, if not it is class "E"
> > and in some cases class "G" airspace.
> >
>
> That's not correct. All surface areas, Class B, C, D or E, require weather
> reporting capability.
>

You're right..I stand corrected, I got mixed up with the fact that
when a tower at a class "D" airport shuts down for the evening, the
airspace reverts to class "E" with controlled airspace starting at
700' or 1200'. I started typing before thinking :-)

Greg
Dakota N2957F

[Roy Smith]

(atis118) wrote:
> You're right..I stand corrected, I got mixed up with the fact that
> when a tower at a class "D" airport shuts down for the evening, the
> airspace reverts to class "E" with controlled airspace starting at
> 700' or 1200'. I started typing before thinking :-)

When the tower closes, some Class D's revert to a Class E Surface Area,
some revert to Class G. Which one is determined by whether there is
certified weather observing available after the tower closes.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
>
> No. Class E or G airports are temporary in nature.
>

Temporary airports?

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"atis118" > wrote in message
om...
>
> You're right..I stand corrected, I got mixed up with the fact that
> when a tower at a class "D" airport shuts down for the evening, the
> airspace reverts to class "E" with controlled airspace starting at
> 700' or 1200'. I started typing before thinking :-)
>

A surface area requires:

1.) Communications. Communications capability with aircraft which normally
operate within the surface area must exist down to the runway surface of the
primary airport. This communications may be either direct from the ATC
facility having jurisdiction over the surface area or by rapid relay through
other communications facilities which are acceptable to that ATC facility.

2.) Weather Observations. Weather observations shall be taken at the
surface area's primary airport during the times the surface area is
designated. The weather observation can be taken by a Federally
certificated weather observer and/or by a Federally commissioned weather
observing system.

If the tower is responsible for taking weather observations, then when the
tower closes the airspace must become Class G. If the tower serves as the
rapid communications relay for the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the
surface area, then the airspace must again become Class G when the tower
closes, even if weather observations are still taken by another entity, such
as an AWOS or ASOS.

If communications still exist and weather observations are still taken after
the tower closes, then the airspace can become Class E or Class G. It will
become Class E if necessary to accommodate instrument procedures if such
action is justified and/or in the public interest. The following factors
are among those that are considered:

1. Type of procedure including decision height or minimum descent
altitude.

2. The actual use to be made of the procedure, including whether it is
used by a certificated air carrier or an air taxi/commuter operator
providing service to the general public.

3. The operational and economic advantage offered by the procedure,
including the importance and interest to the commerce and welfare of the
community derived by the procedure.

4. Any other factors considered appropriate.