Do you use your magnetic compass?

[Roger Long]

A recent compass swing on our plane has turned up some opinions about
magnetic compasses that are surprising to me..

A club member has asked me why we spent money to have a 14 degree error
removed from our compass since it is just a back up instrument if everything
else quits. He just sets the DG to the runway heading on takeoff and uses
that. A couple of 360 in our 172 to look at something on the ground will
put our DG 15 -20 degrees off and it drifts about that much each hour. That
doesn't seem to concern him.

An A&P I asked in another forum said he hopes his customers don't expect him
to get the compass closer than about 10 degrees. Our shop says 10 degrees
is what is allowed.

I used to do a lot of sailing and a degree or two in a compass is a big deal
to me. Even though I can do direct to with the Loran or GPS, I like to be
able to start out in the right direction. If I'm looking for an airport or
landmark, knowing pretty accurately where the aircraft is pointed helps. If
everything else quits, I'd really like to know where the plane is pointed
while I try to find a place to land.

I agree that the compass is pretty fuzzy in an airplane. By the time you
get it to settle down, set the DG, and add in the difficulty of figuring out
exactly where the axis of the airplane is, 10 degrees may be the best you
can do. However, my experience with both navigation and engineering tells
me that it's still worth being precise where you can. If you accept a 10
degree error in the compass itself and then add the 10 degrees of other
factors, you could be up to 20 degrees. That seems like a lot to me.

Am I being overly compulsive about this? I know that everything the
magnetic compass tells you has to be verified with all other available
information but it is still the primary source of direction information in a
simple aircraft like our 172.

Are these casual attitudes towards compass accuracy I'm encountering common?


--
Roger Long

[Nathan Young]

VFR I don't see the big deal about having a working compass and stable
DG. Most of us have a GPS these days, and in the Midwest we can
navigate by the 'grid' road system.

IFR a working compass and DG is a lot more important. If the DG
precesses, it can make long vectors a real pain. Since an accurate
compass is the only easy way to get magnetic heading aloft, it is
necessary to figure the winds aloft, which is fairly important while
beginning an approach.

I'm assuming your club members fly both IFR and VFR, so you should
maintain the plane to what makes sense for the IFR members.

-Nathan


On Sat, 15 May 2004 12:33:25 GMT, "Roger Long"
m> wrote:

>A recent compass swing on our plane has turned up some opinions about
>magnetic compasses that are surprising to me..
>
>A club member has asked me why we spent money to have a 14 degree error
>removed from our compass since it is just a back up instrument if everything
>else quits. He just sets the DG to the runway heading on takeoff and uses
>that. A couple of 360 in our 172 to look at something on the ground will
>put our DG 15 -20 degrees off and it drifts about that much each hour. That
>doesn't seem to concern him.
>
>An A&P I asked in another forum said he hopes his customers don't expect him
>to get the compass closer than about 10 degrees. Our shop says 10 degrees
>is what is allowed.
>
>I used to do a lot of sailing and a degree or two in a compass is a big deal
>to me. Even though I can do direct to with the Loran or GPS, I like to be
>able to start out in the right direction. If I'm looking for an airport or
>landmark, knowing pretty accurately where the aircraft is pointed helps. If
>everything else quits, I'd really like to know where the plane is pointed
>while I try to find a place to land.
>
>I agree that the compass is pretty fuzzy in an airplane. By the time you
>get it to settle down, set the DG, and add in the difficulty of figuring out
>exactly where the axis of the airplane is, 10 degrees may be the best you
>can do. However, my experience with both navigation and engineering tells
>me that it's still worth being precise where you can. If you accept a 10
>degree error in the compass itself and then add the 10 degrees of other
>factors, you could be up to 20 degrees. That seems like a lot to me.
>
>Am I being overly compulsive about this? I know that everything the
>magnetic compass tells you has to be verified with all other available
>information but it is still the primary source of direction information in a
>simple aircraft like our 172.
>
>Are these casual attitudes towards compass accuracy I'm encountering common?

[Dan Luke]

"Roger Long" wrote:
> Am I being overly compulsive about this?

Not at all, IMO.

> I know that everything the magnetic compass tells you has
> to be verified with all other available information

It's the other way around, isn't it? Once you're airborn, the compass
is the only thing you have that directly displays your heading. The HI
is not much use if you have no way to remove its precession.

> Are these casual attitudes towards compass accuracy I'm encountering
common?

I don't know, but to me the compass is as important as any other flight
instrument. I definitely want to know which way the nose is pointed.
--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Jay Honeck]

> Am I being overly compulsive about this?

Maybe. Although I still religiously set the DG to the compass in flight,
it's more from habit than from need.

I've got two moving map GPSs, two VORs, DME, and the road grids to navigate
with -- any one of which is far more accurate than my whisky compass. And
the odds of losing all of those tools (including battery back-ups) are
almost nil.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[G.R. Patterson III]

Roger Long wrote:
>
> Are these casual attitudes towards compass accuracy I'm encountering common?

I've found that the CFIs who have flown with me tend to assume that the compass is
very accurate. If I turn 90 degrees and the compass and DG don't agree, they assume a
problem in the vacuum system. Mechanics, on the other hand, seem to have the idea
that 15 or 20 degrees of error is ok. None of them want the job of swinging the
compass properly on a taildragger.

Now, I haven't asked very many mechanics to do this. After striking out a couple of
times, I just started resetting the DG to the ground track on my LORAN on long trips.

By the way, my compass inaccuracies are caused by adding all the avionics without
re-swinging the compass.

George Patterson
I childproofed my house, but they *still* get in.

[Ben Jackson]

In article >,
Roger Long m> wrote:
>A club member has asked me why we spent money to have a 14 degree error
>removed from our compass since it is just a back up instrument if everything
>else quits.

Not for an NDB approach! Oh, wait, an NDB approach is a backup if
everything else quits. ;-)

>A couple of 360 in our 172 to look at something on the ground will
>put our DG 15 -20 degrees off and it drifts about that much each hour.

I've flown behind DGs that bad, but most hold heading better than that.

>An A&P I asked in another forum said he hopes his customers don't expect him
>to get the compass closer than about 10 degrees. Our shop says 10 degrees
>is what is allowed.

I asked about this on rec.aviation.ifr and not many people said they
used the correction card. I've only used it on the ground to assure
myself that it was mostly small 1-2 degree errors so I could ignore it
in flight.

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

[EDR]

On any airplane I fly, if the mag compass is not within 5 degrees of
accuracy, I don't fly the plane, it's that important!

The mag compass is the primary navigation device in my Champ, so if the
mag compass is off, navigation can be a real bitch.

[Cub Driver]

I did, last Wednesday :)

Not long after leaving the airport northbound, the Garmin III+ popped
up a message: Battery Low. Then it went off, and after one more rep it
stayed off. Happily there was not much wind, and the position of the
compass (there is no gyro in the Cub) was well-remembered as between N
and 3 outbound and between S and 16 on the return trip, which enabled
me to go and return with reasonable accuracy. (Viz was about 10 miles
so I couldn't steer by the mountains as I prefer to do.)

It made me realize that it had been a very long time since I'd checked
my progress on the chart.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

[Stealth Pilot]

On Sat, 15 May 2004 12:33:25 GMT, "Roger Long"
m> wrote:

>A recent compass swing on our plane has turned up some opinions about
>magnetic compasses that are surprising to me..
>
>A club member has asked me why we spent money to have a 14 degree error
>removed from our compass since it is just a back up instrument if everything
>else quits. He just sets the DG to the runway heading on takeoff and uses
>that. A couple of 360 in our 172 to look at something on the ground will
>put our DG 15 -20 degrees off and it drifts about that much each hour. That
>doesn't seem to concern him.
>
>An A&P I asked in another forum said he hopes his customers don't expect him
>to get the compass closer than about 10 degrees. Our shop says 10 degrees
>is what is allowed.
>

the australian standard is 5 degrees maximum error with an annual
compass swing.
most compasses will be well within that.

most common problem is a leaking diaphragm followed by some wear on
the spindle. both are easily repaired by someone knowledgable.

yes it does matter. when you need it most is a situation where you
cant recognise a damn thing below and will need to fly a known bearing
until something that you do recognise comes into view.

they are pretty reliable in a pinch since the earth's magnetic field
doesnt have an off switch :-)

Stealth Pilot

[Judah]

Actually, according to the discovery channel, the earth's poles are
weakening, and will ultimately reverse polarity...

Pilots everywhere are going to become very confused very quickly.

Most, though, will be most horrified when their toilet bowl flushes the wrong
way.


Stealth Pilot > wrote in
:

> they are pretty reliable in a pinch since the earth's magnetic field
> doesnt have an off switch :-)
>
> Stealth Pilot
>

[G.R. Patterson III]

Judah wrote:
>
> Actually, according to the discovery channel, the earth's poles are
> weakening, and will ultimately reverse polarity...
>
> Pilots everywhere are going to become very confused very quickly.
>
> Most, though, will be most horrified when their toilet bowl flushes the wrong
> way.

Well, if that's what's going to horrify me most, then having my magnetic compass
become a flip-flop will be a non-event. I haven't made a habit of watching the stuff
in the toilet go down the drain in *many* years.

George Patterson
I childproofed my house, but they *still* get in.

[[email protected]]

Yes!

..and it is "swung" and has a card, and it is used (read)
often....

3 of our 4 pilots are also boaters..

The compass has no pumps, batteries, power supplies, and the
earths magnetic field has proven to be very reliable.. :)

We keep in in "good order" , same as all other equipment on
the A/C...

Dave

.On Sat, 15 May 2004 12:33:25 GMT, "Roger Long"
m> wrote:

>A recent compass swing on our plane has turned up some opinions about
>magnetic compasses that are surprising to me..
>
>A club member has asked me why we spent money to have a 14 degree error
>removed from our compass since it is just a back up instrument if everything
>else quits. He just sets the DG to the runway heading on takeoff and uses
>that. A couple of 360 in our 172 to look at something on the ground will
>put our DG 15 -20 degrees off and it drifts about that much each hour. That
>doesn't seem to concern him.
>
Snip


>Are these casual attitudes towards compass accuracy I'm encountering common?

[Judah]

Fortunately, it is estimated that this process will take between a few
years and a few hundred thousand. So while all experts seem to agree that
we are long overdue (it has been about 750,000 years since our last pole
swap, and supposedly it normally occurs about every 300,000), there is a
chance that you will not be required to revitalize your former pastime of
toilet-gazing too soon.

And as long as you have had your compass card upgraded before the process
is complete, it will indeed be a non-event. Just another FAA
Airworthiness Directive to comply with at your next annual...

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in
:

>
>
> Judah wrote:
>>
>> Actually, according to the discovery channel, the earth's poles are
>> weakening, and will ultimately reverse polarity...
>>
>> Pilots everywhere are going to become very confused very quickly.
>>
>> Most, though, will be most horrified when their toilet bowl flushes
>> the wrong way.
>
> Well, if that's what's going to horrify me most, then having my
> magnetic compass become a flip-flop will be a non-event. I haven't made
> a habit of watching the stuff in the toilet go down the drain in *many*
> years.
>
> George Patterson
> I childproofed my house, but they *still* get in.

[Robert M. Gary]

How are you going to fly an ATC heading without a good compass? You
cannot use the GPS because that gives ground track, not heading and
will mess up the controllers sequencing. Also, you should be
confortable using only the compass for nav.

"Roger Long" m> wrote in message >...
> A recent compass swing on our plane has turned up some opinions about
> magnetic compasses that are surprising to me..
>
> A club member has asked me why we spent money to have a 14 degree error
> removed from our compass since it is just a back up instrument if everything
> else quits. He just sets the DG to the runway heading on takeoff and uses
> that. A couple of 360 in our 172 to look at something on the ground will
> put our DG 15 -20 degrees off and it drifts about that much each hour. That
> doesn't seem to concern him.
>
> An A&P I asked in another forum said he hopes his customers don't expect him
> to get the compass closer than about 10 degrees. Our shop says 10 degrees
> is what is allowed.
>
> I used to do a lot of sailing and a degree or two in a compass is a big deal
> to me. Even though I can do direct to with the Loran or GPS, I like to be
> able to start out in the right direction. If I'm looking for an airport or
> landmark, knowing pretty accurately where the aircraft is pointed helps. If
> everything else quits, I'd really like to know where the plane is pointed
> while I try to find a place to land.
>
> I agree that the compass is pretty fuzzy in an airplane. By the time you
> get it to settle down, set the DG, and add in the difficulty of figuring out
> exactly where the axis of the airplane is, 10 degrees may be the best you
> can do. However, my experience with both navigation and engineering tells
> me that it's still worth being precise where you can. If you accept a 10
> degree error in the compass itself and then add the 10 degrees of other
> factors, you could be up to 20 degrees. That seems like a lot to me.
>
> Am I being overly compulsive about this? I know that everything the
> magnetic compass tells you has to be verified with all other available
> information but it is still the primary source of direction information in a
> simple aircraft like our 172.
>
> Are these casual attitudes towards compass accuracy I'm encountering common?

[G.R. Patterson III]

"Robert M. Gary" wrote:
>
> How are you going to fly an ATC heading without a good compass?

It's been my experience that ATC provides a heading for you to fly and keeps an eye
on you for a while to make sure that you are flying the course they actually want. If
your compass is off by, say, 10 degrees, they will give you a corrected heading to
fly.

George Patterson
I childproofed my house, but they *still* get in.

[Morgans]

"Judah" > wrote in message
...
> Actually, according to the discovery channel, the earth's poles are
> weakening, and will ultimately reverse polarity...
>
> Pilots everywhere are going to become very confused very quickly.
>
> Most, though, will be most horrified when their toilet bowl flushes the
wrong
> way.

Nope. Flush direction is a rotational thing, not magnetic. Unless you have
magnetic water?
--
Jim in NC


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.686 / Virus Database: 447 - Release Date: 5/14/2004

[EDR]

In article >, Morgans
> wrote:

> "Judah" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Actually, according to the discovery channel, the earth's poles are
> > weakening, and will ultimately reverse polarity...
> >
> > Pilots everywhere are going to become very confused very quickly.
> >
> > Most, though, will be most horrified when their toilet bowl flushes the
> wrong
> > way.
>
> Nope. Flush direction is a rotational thing, not magnetic. Unless you have
> magnetic water?

A good chemical softener will take the iron right out of it (and make
your soap lather up, too). ;-)

[C J Campbell]

I had a real no-kidding gyro failure a few weeks ago. It was mostly VMC, but
my student was under the hood. She was off her heading by more than 90
degrees within a few seconds, the gyro having precessed that much before she
noticed it. Once she started using the compass, though, she was able to
follow the localizer very well. She also covered the failed instruments,
just as I had taught her. I was so proud...

Anyway, I think that an accurate compass might just be real handy someday.
The attitude of "just a backup" concerns me. It sounds like this pilot
thinks things never go wrong.

[Mike Money]

My Dad bought a water softener in 1952. Didn't know what it was, but my
shorts got softer.

Mike $$$

[Cub Driver]

>Actually, according to the discovery channel, the earth's poles are
>weakening, and will ultimately reverse polarity...

When should we start worrying about this, in 500 or 50,000 years?

And will it come before or after we are all drowned by rising sea
levels?

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

[Judah]

Apparently, it's long overdue. The last pole reversal was about 700,000
years ago. But pole reversals are supposed to happen every 250,000 years or
so.

So it could happen any day now...

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/magnetic/reversals.html


Cub Driver > wrote in
:

>
>>Actually, according to the discovery channel, the earth's poles are
>>weakening, and will ultimately reverse polarity...
>
> When should we start worrying about this, in 500 or 50,000 years?
>
> And will it come before or after we are all drowned by rising sea
> levels?
>
> all the best -- Dan Ford
> email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)
>
> The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
> The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
> Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org
>

[john price]

Dan...

I'm so disappointed... You actually use a GPS in a Cub...
Blastphemy!!!!

John Price
CFII/AGI/IGI
http://home.att.net/~jm.price


"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
>
> I did, last Wednesday :)
>
> Not long after leaving the airport northbound, the Garmin III+ popped
> up a message: Battery Low. Then it went off, and after one more rep it
> stayed off. Happily there was not much wind, and the position of the
> compass (there is no gyro in the Cub) was well-remembered as between N
> and 3 outbound and between S and 16 on the return trip, which enabled
> me to go and return with reasonable accuracy. (Viz was about 10 miles
> so I couldn't steer by the mountains as I prefer to do.)
>
> It made me realize that it had been a very long time since I'd checked
> my progress on the chart.
>
> all the best -- Dan Ford
> email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)
>
> The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
> The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
> Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

[Greg Copeland]

On Mon, 17 May 2004 00:52:51 +0000, dgamblin wrote:

>
> The compass has no pumps, batteries, power supplies, and the
> earths magnetic field has proven to be very reliable.. :)
>

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/magnetic/

;)

Cheers!

[Greg Copeland]

On Mon, 17 May 2004 01:13:50 +0000, Judah wrote:

> Fortunately, it is estimated that this process will take between a few
> years and a few hundred thousand. So while all experts seem to agree that
> we are long overdue (it has been about 750,000 years since our last pole
> swap, and supposedly it normally occurs about every 300,000), there is a
> chance that you will not be required to revitalize your former pastime of
> toilet-gazing too soon.
>
> And as long as you have had your compass card upgraded before the process
> is complete, it will indeed be a non-event. Just another FAA
> Airworthiness Directive to comply with at your next annual...
>


Actually, there is a geologist that appears to make an argument that the
last time the poles switched, they switched over a period of 6-days, then
back again, and IIRC, switch yet again over some other short period of
time. Current computer models also seem to indicate that the switch can
actually take place in a rather small window of time. In the words of the
geologist (paraphrasing), if such a transition were to happen again, if
you were to closely watch your compass, you could actually watch your
compass follow the changing mangnet poles.

Supposedly, the solar winds, the atmosphere, and the remaining magnetic
fields during this transition may be enough to protect the earth from the
worst of the sun's radiation.

[Greg Copeland]

On Mon, 17 May 2004 10:39:05 +0000, Judah wrote:

> Apparently, it's long overdue. The last pole reversal was about 700,000
> years ago. But pole reversals are supposed to happen every 250,000 years or
> so.
>
> So it could happen any day now...
>
> http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/magnetic/reversals.html
>

Dang it...and I thought I'd be the "cool guy" offering that link. I guess
that's what happens when you don't religiously read here. ;)

Cheers!

[David Brooks]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Judah" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Actually, according to the discovery channel, the earth's poles are
> > weakening, and will ultimately reverse polarity...
> >
> > Pilots everywhere are going to become very confused very quickly.
> >
> > Most, though, will be most horrified when their toilet bowl flushes the
> wrong
> > way.
>
> Nope. Flush direction is a rotational thing, not magnetic. Unless you
have
> magnetic water?

Although many killjoys like myself know this is an UL, you actually *can*
demonstrate the Coriolis effect in a large bowl of water. But...
http://www.ems.psu.edu/~fraser/Bad/BadCoriolis.html

Sure, flush direction is a rotational thing. But it's not an
earth-rotational thing.

-- David Brooks

[Cub Driver]

>I'm so disappointed... You actually use a GPS in a Cub...

I wouldn;t leave home without it!

The big problem was where to mount it, given that the Cub is soloed
from the back seat. For the solution (actually, two solutions) see
www.pipercubforum.com/garmin.htm

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

[Dean Wilkinson]

Jay,

The real use of the "whiskey compass" is for when all else has failed
and you are going in. Rip that sucker off, crack it open, and chug
your last shot...

Dean

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:<IXppc.15719$6f5.1334133@attbi_s54>...
> > Am I being overly compulsive about this?
>
> Maybe. Although I still religiously set the DG to the compass in flight,
> it's more from habit than from need.
>
> I've got two moving map GPSs, two VORs, DME, and the road grids to navigate
> with -- any one of which is far more accurate than my whisky compass. And
> the odds of losing all of those tools (including battery back-ups) are
> almost nil.

[C J Campbell]

"Dean Wilkinson" > wrote in message
m...
> Jay,
>
> The real use of the "whiskey compass" is for when all else has failed
> and you are going in. Rip that sucker off, crack it open, and chug
> your last shot...
>

You do know that the thing is filled with kerosene, don't you?

[Jay Beckman]

"C J Campbell" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dean Wilkinson" > wrote in message
> m...
> > Jay,
> >
> > The real use of the "whiskey compass" is for when all else has failed
> > and you are going in. Rip that sucker off, crack it open, and chug
> > your last shot...
> >
>
> You do know that the thing is filled with kerosene, don't you?
>
>

Ok, so make it a "Flaming Shot!"

<gdr>

Jay B

[Stealth Pilot]

On Mon, 17 May 2004 17:05:30 -0400, Cub Driver
> wrote:

>
>>I'm so disappointed... You actually use a GPS in a Cub...
>
>I wouldn;t leave home without it!
>
>The big problem was where to mount it, given that the Cub is soloed
>from the back seat. For the solution (actually, two solutions) see
>www.pipercubforum.com/garmin.htm
>

where to mount it actually has some worthwhile considerations.

most are up in the windscreen slung from the roof, these typically
need the rubber diaphragms replaced every year since they perish in
the uv and start to leak.
the old pilot who built my aircraft put it at the base of the panel.
its bobbing around isnt distracting down there out of the field of
view and being at the bottom of the panel keeps it cool enough that
the diaphragms last over 5 years.

never realised the significance until an instrument overhauler pointed
out what it achieved.
Stealth Pilot

[Dean Wilkinson]

C.J. Campbell wrote:
> You do know that the thing is filled with kerosene, don't you?

Yes, of course. Its still a good joke...

Dean

[Robert M. Gary]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message >...
> "Robert M. Gary" wrote:
> >
> > How are you going to fly an ATC heading without a good compass?
>
> It's been my experience that ATC provides a heading for you to fly and keeps an eye
> on you for a while to make sure that you are flying the course they actually want. If
> your compass is off by, say, 10 degrees, they will give you a corrected heading to
> fly.

You can't be suggesting that this is the best way to do it on a
regular basis. Do you want ATC to have to keep giving up updated
headings everytime they try to vector you for an ILS because you don't
have a good compass?

[G.R. Patterson III]

"Robert M. Gary" wrote:
>
> You can't be suggesting that this is the best way to do it on a
> regular basis. Do you want ATC to have to keep giving up updated
> headings everytime they try to vector you for an ILS because you don't
> have a good compass?

I don't want ATC to be giving me headings to vector me to the ILS at all.

George Patterson
I childproofed my house, but they *still* get in.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> "Robert M. Gary" wrote:
> >
> > You can't be suggesting that this is the best way to do it on a
> > regular basis. Do you want ATC to have to keep giving up updated
> > headings everytime they try to vector you for an ILS because you don't
> > have a good compass?
>
> I don't want ATC to be giving me headings to vector me to the ILS at all.
>
Why not?

[G.R. Patterson III]

Tom Sixkiller wrote:
>
> > I don't want ATC to be giving me headings to vector me to the ILS at all.
> >
> Why not?

I fly VFR.

George Patterson
I childproofed my house, but they *still* get in.

[Robert M. Gary]

"Tom Sixkiller" > wrote in message >...
> "G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > "Robert M. Gary" wrote:
> > >
> > > You can't be suggesting that this is the best way to do it on a
> > > regular basis. Do you want ATC to have to keep giving up updated
> > > headings everytime they try to vector you for an ILS because you don't
> > > have a good compass?
> >
> > I don't want ATC to be giving me headings to vector me to the ILS at all.
> >
> Why not?

Its much easier to fly an ILS with one intercept heading. If the
controller has to keep updating your heading because you don't have a
good compass, he's not going to be first in line to buy you drinks
when you get on the ground. Its just seems like needlessly rubbing
sand paper on controllers.

-Robert

[Jeff]

while in class B airspace you need a working compass / DG , otherwise what are
you going to do when told to make all those turns.

Nathan Young wrote:

> VFR I don't see the big deal about having a working compass and stable
> DG. Most of us have a GPS these days, and in the Midwest we can
> navigate by the 'grid' road system.

[Nathan Young]

You would have to be allowed into Bravo airspace for that to matter.
In 8 years of flying VFR and IFR in the Chicago area, I've been inside
the Bravo probably less than 5 times, and those were at odd hours.

:)


-Nathan

On Thu, 20 May 2004 18:47:20 -0700, Jeff > wrote:

>while in class B airspace you need a working compass / DG , otherwise what are
>you going to do when told to make all those turns.
>
>Nathan Young wrote:
>
>> VFR I don't see the big deal about having a working compass and stable
>> DG. Most of us have a GPS these days, and in the Midwest we can
>> navigate by the 'grid' road system.

[Big John]

C.J.

Didn't used to be. Why do you think they call them a "Whiskey
Compass"?

Big John


On Mon, 17 May 2004 20:10:22 -0700, "C J Campbell"
> wrote:

>
>"Dean Wilkinson" > wrote in message
m...
>> Jay,
>>
>> The real use of the "whiskey compass" is for when all else has failed
>> and you are going in. Rip that sucker off, crack it open, and chug
>> your last shot...
>>
>
>You do know that the thing is filled with kerosene, don't you?
>

[Rocky]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:<IXppc.15719$6f5.1334133@attbi_s54>...
> > Am I being overly compulsive about this?
>
> Maybe. Although I still religiously set the DG to the compass in flight,
> it's more from habit than from need.
>
> I've got two moving map GPSs, two VORs, DME, and the road grids to navigate
> with -- any one of which is far more accurate than my whisky compass. And
> the odds of losing all of those tools (including battery back-ups) are
> almost nil.

Jay
Not to be disparaging by any means, but I've seen total electrical
equipment failure at least twice while IFR, and a few times while VFR.
I learned the use of the wet compass early in my flying career...it
was demanded by my old crusty CFI, and it has worked well to keep me
out of trouble in remote places. It has gotten me back on the ground
right side up in a Pawnee when I inadvertantly ran into early fog in
Louisiana back in the mid 60's. That was when I incorporated the use
of what I called Primitive Panel for training with all my following
Instrument students.
I even had to learn use of a sun compass in addition to all the rest
of the gages when flying up north. Yep there is still plenty of use
for the old wet compass all the new gadgets notwithstanding.
Best Regards
Flyinrock

[David Megginson]

Rocky wrote:

>>I've got two moving map GPSs, two VORs, DME, and the road grids to navigate
>>with -- any one of which is far more accurate than my whisky compass. And
>>the odds of losing all of those tools (including battery back-ups) are
>>almost nil.

> Not to be disparaging by any means, but I've seen total electrical
> equipment failure at least twice while IFR, and a few times while VFR.
> I learned the use of the wet compass early in my flying career...it
> was demanded by my old crusty CFI, and it has worked well to keep me
> out of trouble in remote places. It has gotten me back on the ground
> right side up in a Pawnee when I inadvertantly ran into early fog in
> Louisiana back in the mid 60's. That was when I incorporated the use
> of what I called Primitive Panel for training with all my following
> Instrument students.
> I even had to learn use of a sun compass in addition to all the rest
> of the gages when flying up north. Yep there is still plenty of use
> for the old wet compass all the new gadgets notwithstanding.

More significantly, when ATC gives you IFR vectors, they are at least trying
to take wind into account. If approach says "fly heading 250, vectors,
traffic" in strong winds and a slow plane, they might actually want you on a
*track* of anywhere between 220 and 280.

I agree with the original poster that it's unlikely that you'd have an
electrical failure (for the panel instruments) *and* a GPS outage (for the
handheld) at the same time, but it is still worth noting that there is just
one level of redundancy there, since everything but the handheld GPS depends
on the same electrical system.


All the best,


David

[SelwayKid]

David Megginson > wrote in message e.rogers.com>...
> Rocky wrote:
>
> >>I've got two moving map GPSs, two VORs, DME, and the road grids to navigate
> >>with -- any one of which is far more accurate than my whisky compass. And
> >>the odds of losing all of those tools (including battery back-ups) are
> >>almost nil.
>
> > Not to be disparaging by any means, but I've seen total electrical
> > equipment failure at least twice while IFR, and a few times while VFR.
> > I learned the use of the wet compass early in my flying career...it
> > was demanded by my old crusty CFI, and it has worked well to keep me
> > out of trouble in remote places. It has gotten me back on the ground
> > right side up in a Pawnee when I inadvertantly ran into early fog in
> > Louisiana back in the mid 60's. That was when I incorporated the use
> > of what I called Primitive Panel for training with all my following
> > Instrument students.
> > I even had to learn use of a sun compass in addition to all the rest
> > of the gages when flying up north. Yep there is still plenty of use
> > for the old wet compass all the new gadgets notwithstanding.
>
> More significantly, when ATC gives you IFR vectors, they are at least trying
> to take wind into account. If approach says "fly heading 250, vectors,
> traffic" in strong winds and a slow plane, they might actually want you on a
> *track* of anywhere between 220 and 280.
>
> I agree with the original poster that it's unlikely that you'd have an
> electrical failure (for the panel instruments) *and* a GPS outage (for the
> handheld) at the same time, but it is still worth noting that there is just
> one level of redundancy there, since everything but the handheld GPS depends
> on the same electrical system.
>
>
> All the best,
>
>
> David
Can't argue with your post. All I can rely on is my own experience
gained in the last 45 years puttin around the world in remote areas
with some fancy, and some simple equipment. Much of the time I had to
rely on compass and eyeballs while making my own maps. A large part of
territory was marked UNSURVEYED on the map with a light green blank
tint.....
Now I wonder how in the world we ever got along without GPS but I can
still put my finger on the map and say, "We are right HERE".
While not exactly on topic, but very related, was the disappointing
ability of many US pilots who came to fly for me in remote areas, to
navigate without all the fancy electronic equipment we have here in
the USA. There wasn't much room for error out there and none of us
wanted to spend a lot of effort trying to find someone who couldn't
read a map or use a compass, or fly their plan. It appears that is
getting worse instead of better with reliance on avionics as opposed
to gray matter.
Cheers
Ol Shy & Bashful