Help needed re Mifflin wind turbines

[Karl Striedieck[_2_]]

As mentioned here in an earlier post, glider pilots who would be adversely affected by a ridge-top wind turbine complex on Jacks Mt near Mifflin are cooperating with a group named SOAR (Save Our Allegheny Ridges)in an attempt to thwart this project.

A quick way glider pilots can help is to vote "no" on the poll running in the local newspaper, the Lewistown Sentinel. Paste this link into your browser:

http://lewistownsentinel.com/page/polls.detail/id/126/Do-you-support-the-installation-of-wind-turbines-on-Jacks-and-Stone-Mountains-.html


Thanks for taking the few seconds required. (Last time I checked it was 76% against, 22% for and the rest unsure.)

Karl Striedieck

[Greg Delp]

On Saturday, March 22, 2014 9:25:58 AM UTC-4, Karl Striedieck wrote:
> As mentioned here in an earlier post, glider pilots who would be adversely affected by a ridge-top wind turbine complex on Jacks Mt near Mifflin are cooperating with a group named SOAR (Save Our Allegheny Ridges)in an attempt to thwart this project.
>
>
>
> A quick way glider pilots can help is to vote "no" on the poll running in the local newspaper, the Lewistown Sentinel. Paste this link into your browser:
>
>
>
> http://lewistownsentinel.com/page/polls.detail/id/126/Do-you-support-the-installation-of-wind-turbines-on-Jacks-and-Stone-Mountains-.html
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks for taking the few seconds required. (Last time I checked it was 76% against, 22% for and the rest unsure.)
>
>
>
> Karl Striedieck

Done!!!

[MNLou]

On Saturday, March 22, 2014 8:25:58 AM UTC-5, Karl Striedieck wrote:
> As mentioned here in an earlier post, glider pilots who would be adversely affected by a ridge-top wind turbine complex on Jacks Mt near Mifflin are cooperating with a group named SOAR (Save Our Allegheny Ridges)in an attempt to thwart this project.
>
>
>
> A quick way glider pilots can help is to vote "no" on the poll running in the local newspaper, the Lewistown Sentinel. Paste this link into your browser:
>
>
>
> http://lewistownsentinel.com/page/polls.detail/id/126/Do-you-support-the-installation-of-wind-turbines-on-Jacks-and-Stone-Mountains-.html
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks for taking the few seconds required. (Last time I checked it was 76% against, 22% for and the rest unsure.)
>
>
>
> Karl Striedieck

Ditto!

[Sean Fidler]

Voted.

I stand firmly against the liberal hoards and their intentional effort to kill thousands of innocent birds precisely in the middle of their scarce and fleeting natural habitat. ;-)

It should not be called green energy. It should be called blood red energy for the horrible death birds experience while being struck down by the massive blades spinning on their once pristine ridges. ;-)

http://youtu.be/jwVz5hdAMGU

Sean
7T

[Brad Alston]

;852762']
Thanks for taking the few seconds required. (Last time I checked it was 76% against, 22% for and the rest unsure.)

Karl Striedieck

Done; Currently 22% Yes, 72% No, 4% Need more info, and 2% Doesn't matter.

[Mike C]

On Saturday, March 22, 2014 3:42:15 PM UTC-6, gotovkotzepkoi wrote:
> "I stand firmly against the liberal hoards and their intentional effort
>
> to kill thousands of innocent birds precisely in the middle of their
>
> scarce and fleeting natural habitat. ;-)"
>
>
>
> Really? You're barking up the wrong tree. If you are truly worried about
>
> birds then campaign for the immediate extermination of domesticated
>
> house cats running around outside which are responsible for massive
>
> birds deaths..
>
>
>
> http://tinyurl.com/nwhbvtd
>
>
>
> Bird deaths from wind turbines is negligible in the grand scheme.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> gotovkotzepkoi

I doubt that domesticated house cats have much of an impact on migrating raptors. The proliferation of wind turbines along migration flight ways might.

[Whiskey Charlie]

You never know...
http://tinyurl.com/prctuan

[Mike C]

On Saturday, March 22, 2014 9:15:08 PM UTC-6, Whiskey Charlie wrote:
> You never know...
>
> http://tinyurl.com/prctuan

LOL!

[Dan Marotta]

I also voted "NO" but I don't think it'll make a bit of difference. Follow
the money...

I hope I'm wrong on this.


"Brad Alston" > wrote in message
...
>
> 'Karl Striedieck[_2_ Wrote:
>> ;852762']
>> Thanks for taking the few seconds required. (Last time I checked it was
>> 76% against, 22% for and the rest unsure.)
>>
>> Karl Striedieck
>
> Done; Currently 22% Yes, 72% No, 4% Need more info, and 2% Doesn't
> matter.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Brad Alston

[Sean Fidler]

On Saturday, March 22, 2014 11:15:08 PM UTC-4, Whiskey Charlie wrote:
> You never know...
>
> http://tinyurl.com/prctuan

That is hilarious WC. And so timely...

Notice how the liberal hordes have absolutely no heart. This is the sad truth about liberals. They only act as if they have feelings when it serves their political goals. The reality is that thousands of magnificent (and often endangered) birds are being killed each and every hour by "green" energy wind turbines. You could not design a better system of killing birds really. This is a fact that they try their best to ignore. The reality is that liberals do not care about birds being killed and suffering in horrible agony when struck by their green energy causes high speed turbine blades. They care about forcing non liberals to conform to their utopian fantasy of how the world must be. Remember the tale of the "spotted owl?"

Above we saw a classic liberal devaluing all birds lives and their right to live free of such dangers (wind turbines). Instead of responding to the sad video which shows one of the many bird deaths (which happen thousands and thousands of times each day in the US), the liberal drone instead tries to argue that house-cats are a more important threats to consider for these birds. So therefore the wind turbine bird massacre is "not his green energy causes fault" because house cats also kill birds (clearly the bald eagle in the photo is not very concerned about that house cat...)?

Its hard to follow the liberal logic. So comical is the "mind" of the mindless, liberal drone.

;-)

[Sean Fidler]

On Saturday, March 22, 2014 11:15:08 PM UTC-4, Whiskey Charlie wrote:
> You never know...
>
> http://tinyurl.com/prctuan

That is hilarious WC. And so timely...

Notice how the liberal hordes have absolutely no heart. This is the sad truth about liberals. They only act as if they have feelings for animals when it serves their political goals. The reality is that thousands of magnificent (and often endangered) birds are being killed each and every hour by "green" energy wind turbines. You could not design a better method of killing soaring birds (other than placing them on top of a ridge...) that green energy wind turbines.

The reality is that liberals do not care about birds being killed and suffering in horrible agony until they die when struck by their "green energy" producing turbine blades. They care about forcing non liberals to conform to their utopian fantasy of how the world should be. At any cost. Remember the tale of the "spotted owl?"

Above we see a classic liberal happy to devalue all bird life and their right to live free of a green energy caused massacre (by wind turbines). Instead of taking any responsibility, the liberal drone instead tries to argue that house-cats are a more important threats to consider for these birds. So therefore the wind turbine bird massacre is "not his green energy causes fault" because house cats also kill birds? Amazing...

Clearly the bald eagle in the photo is not very concerned about that house cat. More like happy to have such an easy meal.

I wonder how long that bird in the video suffered in that parking lot before it finally died. A day? Two days? A week? Maybe a house cat came along and helped put it out of its misery faster than it would have died on its own?

Its truly a challenge to follow a liberals logic.

;-)

[Sean Fidler]

On Saturday, March 22, 2014 11:15:08 PM UTC-4, Whiskey Charlie wrote:
> You never know...
>
> http://tinyurl.com/prctuan

That is hilarious WC. And so timely...

Notice how the liberal hordes have absolutely no heart. This is the sad truth about liberals. They only act as if they have feelings for animals when it serves their political goals. The reality is that thousands of magnificent (and often endangered) birds are being killed each and every hour by "green" energy wind turbines. You could not design a better method of killing soaring birds (other than placing them on top of a ridge...) than green energy wind turbines.

The reality is that liberals do not care about birds being killed and suffering in horrible agony until they die when struck by their "green energy" producing turbine blades. They care about forcing non liberals to conform to their utopian fantasy of how the world should be. At any cost. Remember the tale of the "spotted owl?"

Above we see a classic liberal happy to devalue all bird life and their right to live free of a green energy caused massacre (by wind turbines). Instead of taking any responsibility, the liberal drone instead tries to argue that house-cats are a more important threats to consider for these birds. So therefore the wind turbine bird massacre is "not his green energy causes fault" because house cats also kill birds? Amazing...

Clearly the bald eagle in the photo is not very concerned about that house cat. More like happy to have such an easy meal.

I wonder how long that bird in the video suffered in that parking lot before it finally died. A day? Two days? A week? Maybe a house cat came along and helped put it out of its misery faster than it would have died on its own?

Its truly a challenge to follow a liberals logic.

;-)

[Sean Fidler]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtgBWNKwBkE

On Sunday, March 23, 2014 2:38:02 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
> On Saturday, March 22, 2014 11:15:08 PM UTC-4, Whiskey Charlie wrote:
>
> > You never know...
>
> >
>
> > http://tinyurl.com/prctuan
>
>
>
> That is hilarious WC. And so timely...
>
>
>
> Notice how the liberal hordes have absolutely no heart. This is the sad truth about liberals. They only act as if they have feelings for animals when it serves their political goals. The reality is that thousands of magnificent (and often endangered) birds are being killed each and every hour by "green" energy wind turbines. You could not design a better method of killing soaring birds (other than placing them on top of a ridge...) than green energy wind turbines.
>
>
>
> The reality is that liberals do not care about birds being killed and suffering in horrible agony until they die when struck by their "green energy" producing turbine blades. They care about forcing non liberals to conform to their utopian fantasy of how the world should be. At any cost. Remember the tale of the "spotted owl?"
>
>
>
> Above we see a classic liberal happy to devalue all bird life and their right to live free of a green energy caused massacre (by wind turbines). Instead of taking any responsibility, the liberal drone instead tries to argue that house-cats are a more important threats to consider for these birds. So therefore the wind turbine bird massacre is "not his green energy causes fault" because house cats also kill birds? Amazing...
>
>
>
> Clearly the bald eagle in the photo is not very concerned about that house cat. More like happy to have such an easy meal.
>
>
>
> I wonder how long that bird in the video suffered in that parking lot before it finally died. A day? Two days? A week? Maybe a house cat came along and helped put it out of its misery faster than it would have died on its own?
>
>
>
> Its truly a challenge to follow a liberals logic.
>
>
>
> ;-)

[WAVEGURU]

Yes, a conservitive's brain is a much simpler thing....

Boggs

[Juanman]

On Sunday, March 23, 2014 2:38:02 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
> On Saturday, March 22, 2014 11:15:08 PM UTC-4, Whiskey Charlie wrote:
>
> > You never know...
>
> >
>
> > http://tinyurl.com/prctuan
>
>
>
> That is hilarious WC. And so timely...
>
>
>
> Notice how the liberal hordes have absolutely no heart. This is the sad truth about liberals. They only act as if they have feelings for animals when it serves their political goals. The reality is that thousands of magnificent (and often endangered) birds are being killed each and every hour by "green" energy wind turbines. You could not design a better method of killing soaring birds (other than placing them on top of a ridge...) than green energy wind turbines.
>
>
>
> The reality is that liberals do not care about birds being killed and suffering in horrible agony until they die when struck by their "green energy" producing turbine blades. They care about forcing non liberals to conform to their utopian fantasy of how the world should be. At any cost. Remember the tale of the "spotted owl?"
>
>
>
> Above we see a classic liberal happy to devalue all bird life and their right to live free of a green energy caused massacre (by wind turbines). Instead of taking any responsibility, the liberal drone instead tries to argue that house-cats are a more important threats to consider for these birds. So therefore the wind turbine bird massacre is "not his green energy causes fault" because house cats also kill birds? Amazing...
>
>
>
> Clearly the bald eagle in the photo is not very concerned about that house cat. More like happy to have such an easy meal.
>
>
>
> I wonder how long that bird in the video suffered in that parking lot before it finally died. A day? Two days? A week? Maybe a house cat came along and helped put it out of its misery faster than it would have died on its own?
>
>
>
> Its truly a challenge to follow a liberals logic.
>
>
>
> ;-)

How about hoarding the anti-liberal rants to use in front of hordes of conservatives and let this board be about soaring :-)

[JS]

< let this board be about soaring :-) >

Gracias, Juan. Too much politics.
Jim

[Sean Fidler]

I'm not conservative or religious. I'm just a guy who cares about birds. This is not politics, this is humanity.

Now, my liberal hordes :-), let's talk about that bird in the video above that was struck by the liberal sponsored wind turbine blade and suffered a horrible death in the parking lot after falling 100's of feet to earth...

Does watching this poor animals death make you happy? Hmmm? How does it make you feel? Is the value of a few kilowatts of "green energy" more important that the horrible death experienced by so many innocent birds? Do you suggest that we all just ignore these unnatural deaths as you do? How many dead birds is justified? How many deaths are too many?

To me, each wind turbine, represents hundreds and perhaps thousands of similar bird deaths each year. Every erected wind Turbine is actually a death sentence for hundreds and perhaps thousands of innocent local birds each year...

Wind Turbines are, in reality, liberal sponsored bird killers!

What should be done to account for this horrible and epidemic MAN MADE INJUSTICE? Who is responsible? (Liberals) Who is accountable? (Liberals) Is it a crime? (Yes)

What should their punishment be? An eye for an eye perhaps? Can we toss liberals into the turbine blades at a 1:1 ratio for every bird death? :-). One can dream...

Seriously, should wind turbines that kill a certain number of birds in a period of time be dismantled? Should the people who approved a wind turbine based on bird risk be held accountable? Stripped of their "license?" Should the owner of the turbine be fined? What is the solution to this problem? Or are you going to continue to claim that the wind turbine bird massacre which is happening each and every hour across this country is NOT A PROBLEM?

Sean

[Squeaky]

[QUOTE=gotovkotzepkoi;854465]Hmmm....accused of being a "liberal drone"!! Now that hurts - NOT. Anyway, the figures about bird deaths from wind turbines appear to be highly inflated. Here is one of many sources:


While I do not doubt the veracity of the stats in this article, they are a red herring to the discussion. For example, there are 3-5 bird deaths per year on my back deck as birds try to fly from one side of our extened dining nook to the other (opposing three panel glass doors. Birds hit by my routine driving? 0-2 per year. Number of raptor deaths in my experiences? ZERO. Where is the concern for the fewer numbers of Birds of Prey, and the stats involving just them in this discussion, not the whole bird population?.

The main point of the bird deaths from the turbines IS about the number of Raptor deaths caused. And I seriously doubt those caused by cats and building/car collision are as significant (in the same areas) as wind turbines. Obviously wind turbines are not all over the place yet for comparison during the gathering of the facts in this article. The article doesn't break down Raptor VS "plain old bird" stats either. But in areas where ridge soaring occurs, Raptors do ride these same currents. They are still killed routinely by the newer wind turbines. And one could easily argue this is done in complete non-compliance with the law with no redress available...

[Tony[_5_]]

Welcome back Sean, missed you while you were at the Seniors

[[email protected]]

On Saturday, March 22, 2014 9:25:58 AM UTC-4, Karl Striedieck wrote:
> As mentioned here in an earlier post, glider pilots who would be adversely affected by a ridge-top wind turbine complex on Jacks Mt near Mifflin are cooperating with a group named SOAR (Save Our Allegheny Ridges)in an attempt to thwart this project.
>
>
>
> A quick way glider pilots can help is to vote "no" on the poll running in the local newspaper, the Lewistown Sentinel. Paste this link into your browser:
>
>
>
> http://lewistownsentinel.com/page/polls.detail/id/126/Do-you-support-the-installation-of-wind-turbines-on-Jacks-and-Stone-Mountains-.html
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks for taking the few seconds required. (Last time I checked it was 76% against, 22% for and the rest unsure.)
>
>
>
> Karl Striedieck

I agree - they are ugly & really really loud - plus when a fellow soaring pilot of Karl's reputation asks for help keeping his ridge flyable - do you need much of an argument :)

"just vote "NO"

WH

[Kevin Christner]

On Monday, March 24, 2014 9:01:57 AM UTC-4, Tony wrote:
> Welcome back Sean, missed you while you were at the Seniors

Can we bring Lennie the Lurker back?

[Sean Fidler]

So we are still trying to quantify/justify "green energy" wind turbine bird death as being acceptably small in number?

Yet the possibility of even disturbing a few spotted owls justified the dismantling of an entire logging industry. Where oh where is the EPA now?

Sorry birds. The liberals are more than happy (and deeply committed) to continue killing you horribly with their government subsidized death fans.

http://youtu.be/IO5LjgIEofg

http://youtu.be/CEersoJLtRw

http://youtu.be/-YJuFvjtM0s

The best one ever: http://youtu.be/7OQMBdcbMTc

[Dan Marotta]

Uhhhh... Whatever-the-hell-your-name-is: I believe the argument against
this wind farm is about gliders and ridge soaring.


"gotovkotzepkoi" > wrote in
message ...
>
> So comical is the "mind" of the mindless, liberal drone.
> ___________________
>
> Hmmm....accused of being a "liberal drone"!! Now that hurts - NOT.
> Anyway, the figures about bird deaths from wind turbines appear to be
> highly inflated. Here is one of many sources:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/2v72l2l
>
> An excerpt from that link:
>
> "Man-made structure/technology
>
> Associated bird deaths per year (U.S.)
>
> Feral and domestic cats - Hundreds of millions [source: AWEA]
>
> Power lines-130 million -- 174 million [source: AWEA]
>
> Windows (residential and commercial)-100 million -- 1 billion [source:
> TreeHugger]
>
> Pesticides-70 million [source: AWEA]
>
> Automobiles-60 million -- 80 million [source: AWEA]
>
> Lighted communication towers-40 million -- 50 million [source: AWEA]
>
> Wind turbines-10,000 -- 40,000 [source: ABC]
>
> Collisions with wind turbines account for about one-tenth of a percent
> of all "unnatural" bird deaths in the United States each year. And of
> all bird deaths, 30 percent are due to natural causes, like baby birds
> falling from nests [source: AWEA]. So why the widespread misconception
> that labels wind turbines "bird-o-matics"? I*t all starts with
> California, raptors and the thousands of old turbines that make up the
> Altamont Pass wind farm.
>
> In this article, we'll find out where the statistics went wrong, how
> thousands of birds do end up flying into wind turbines each year and
> what's being done to reduce the number of bird-turbine collisions."
>
> Now I can get just as teary eyed as the next guy when one of our avian
> soaring buddies gets whacked by a blade. But to say that these things
> are going to slice and dice raptors into oblivion is just not true.
>
> The bottom line is that some people do not want these wind farms on the
> ridges. The reality is that most people do not want them for aesthetic
> reasons-they look like crap. I agree with that. But that's a hard
> argument to make. Glider pilots have an even weaker argument in the
> overall battle against turbines. There simply aren't enough ridge flying
> glider pilots to make a difference. Your average person cannot give a
> rat's a*s that you are inconvenienced in the practice of your elite,
> rich mans sport.
>
> I am in the "they look like crap" category. I'll never forget how
> shocked I was a few years back when I drove across West Texas for the
> first time in 30 years. There were turbines all over the place that
> severely detracted from the magic of that sparsely populated landscape.
> Then, the demise of Boone Pickens big dream stopped him from sticking
> them on every nub of terrain in the rest of West Texas.
>
> So, good luck defeating the wind farm initiative but I don't think the
> trumped up bird argument carries enough weight to be taken seriously.
>
>
>
>
> --
> gotovkotzepkoi

[son_of_flubber]

On Monday, March 24, 2014 11:09:25 AM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
> blah, blah, blah

Why don't you tone it down Sean?

I have a very hard time disassociating your boorish behaviour on RAS (on multiple topics) from the US National Sailplane Racing Team. I made a small financial contribution to the team last week, and honestly, based on the impression that you make on RAS, I hesitated to make it. I wince every time that I see/hear your name connected to sailplane racing.

Do you deliberately try to rub a lot of potential team supporters the wrong way? What is your point? It is not productive.

Other people associated with the team have made a very positive impression on me. It is not that hard to be at least neutral.

[Sean Fidler]

I am not on the US Soaring Team. So you donations are safe ;-)

Sean

On Monday, March 24, 2014 12:33:04 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Monday, March 24, 2014 11:09:25 AM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
>
> > blah, blah, blah
>
>
>
> Why don't you tone it down Sean?
>
>
>
> I have a very hard time disassociating your boorish behaviour on RAS (on multiple topics) from the US National Sailplane Racing Team. I made a small financial contribution to the team last week, and honestly, based on the impression that you make on RAS, I hesitated to make it. I wince every time that I see/hear your name connected to sailplane racing.
>
>
>
> Do you deliberately try to rub a lot of potential team supporters the wrong way? What is your point? It is not productive.
>
>
>
> Other people associated with the team have made a very positive impression on me. It is not that hard to be at least neutral.

[Sean Fidler]

I am just the messenger ;-)

I am not a member of the US Soaring Team. I was invited to consider serving as a Team Captain, but had to turn it down as I could not take 4 weeks off this summer.

So, good news, your USST donations are safe ;-)

And, seriously, thanks for your donation. Tiff and I bought some pretty expensive polo shirts down in Florida last week. Good luck to all the team members!

Sean


On Monday, March 24, 2014 12:33:04 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
> On Monday, March 24, 2014 11:09:25 AM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
>
> > blah, blah, blah
>
>
>
> Why don't you tone it down Sean?
>
>
>
> I have a very hard time disassociating your boorish behaviour on RAS (on multiple topics) from the US National Sailplane Racing Team. I made a small financial contribution to the team last week, and honestly, based on the impression that you make on RAS, I hesitated to make it. I wince every time that I see/hear your name connected to sailplane racing.
>
>
>
> Do you deliberately try to rub a lot of potential team supporters the wrong way? What is your point? It is not productive.
>
>
>
> Other people associated with the team have made a very positive impression on me. It is not that hard to be at least neutral.

[Sean Fidler]

Dan, sometimes you have to go with the argument that can win the war.

A) Gliders not being able to fly on their ridges? Public (and especially govt bureaucrats) could care less.

B) Majestic Raptors (many endangered) along with all birds getting brutally killed en masse by Green Energy and clear liberal double standards? No we have something to fight with....

At minimum it drives the liberals crazy. And that ain't half bad...

;-)

On Monday, March 24, 2014 11:57:22 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Uhhhh... Whatever-the-hell-your-name-is: I believe the argument against
>
> this wind farm is about gliders and ridge soaring.
>
>
>
>
>
> "gotovkotzepkoi" > wrote in
>
> message ...
>
> >
>
> > So comical is the "mind" of the mindless, liberal drone.
>
> > ___________________
>
> >
>
> > Hmmm....accused of being a "liberal drone"!! Now that hurts - NOT.
>
> > Anyway, the figures about bird deaths from wind turbines appear to be
>
> > highly inflated. Here is one of many sources:
>
> >
>
> > http://tinyurl.com/2v72l2l
>
> >
>
> > An excerpt from that link:
>
> >
>
> > "Man-made structure/technology
>
> >
>
> > Associated bird deaths per year (U.S.)
>
> >
>
> > Feral and domestic cats - Hundreds of millions [source: AWEA]
>
> >
>
> > Power lines-130 million -- 174 million [source: AWEA]
>
> >
>
> > Windows (residential and commercial)-100 million -- 1 billion [source:
>
> > TreeHugger]
>
> >
>
> > Pesticides-70 million [source: AWEA]
>
> >
>
> > Automobiles-60 million -- 80 million [source: AWEA]
>
> >
>
> > Lighted communication towers-40 million -- 50 million [source: AWEA]
>
> >
>
> > Wind turbines-10,000 -- 40,000 [source: ABC]
>
> >
>
> > Collisions with wind turbines account for about one-tenth of a percent
>
> > of all "unnatural" bird deaths in the United States each year. And of
>
> > all bird deaths, 30 percent are due to natural causes, like baby birds
>
> > falling from nests [source: AWEA]. So why the widespread misconception
>
> > that labels wind turbines "bird-o-matics"? I*t all starts with
>
> > California, raptors and the thousands of old turbines that make up the
>
> > Altamont Pass wind farm.
>
> >
>
> > In this article, we'll find out where the statistics went wrong, how
>
> > thousands of birds do end up flying into wind turbines each year and
>
> > what's being done to reduce the number of bird-turbine collisions."
>
> >
>
> > Now I can get just as teary eyed as the next guy when one of our avian
>
> > soaring buddies gets whacked by a blade. But to say that these things
>
> > are going to slice and dice raptors into oblivion is just not true.
>
> >
>
> > The bottom line is that some people do not want these wind farms on the
>
> > ridges. The reality is that most people do not want them for aesthetic
>
> > reasons-they look like crap. I agree with that. But that's a hard
>
> > argument to make. Glider pilots have an even weaker argument in the
>
> > overall battle against turbines. There simply aren't enough ridge flying
>
> > glider pilots to make a difference. Your average person cannot give a
>
> > rat's a*s that you are inconvenienced in the practice of your elite,
>
> > rich mans sport.
>
> >
>
> > I am in the "they look like crap" category. I'll never forget how
>
> > shocked I was a few years back when I drove across West Texas for the
>
> > first time in 30 years. There were turbines all over the place that
>
> > severely detracted from the magic of that sparsely populated landscape.
>
> > Then, the demise of Boone Pickens big dream stopped him from sticking
>
> > them on every nub of terrain in the rest of West Texas.
>
> >
>
> > So, good luck defeating the wind farm initiative but I don't think the
>
> > trumped up bird argument carries enough weight to be taken seriously.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > --
>
> > gotovkotzepkoi

[Two Shoes (Judson Knowles)]

This currently a valid style of arguing. It uses the "Liberal Emotionalism" of arguing based on how it "feels"... Does killing birds to make power make you feel good?. Death and dismemberment pictures along with statistics (validity is immaterial, because it comes from a website, so they must be true, but only Sean's)It uses "Green" tactics against "Green Energy".... At least you can thermal from a coal or Frame gas generator stack....

@ Sean: Have you contacted PETA? They need to get in on this action... ;o)

Very few people see the validity or benefit of soaring, more people will identify with the killing of birds. The soaring public would benefit without the wind farm, but realistically, those merits fail on their own.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend...



On Monday, March 24, 2014 11:41:22 AM UTC-6, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Dan, sometimes you have to go with the argument that can win the war.
>
>
>
> A) Gliders not being able to fly on their ridges? Public (and especially govt bureaucrats) could care less.
>
>
>
> B) Majestic Raptors (many endangered) along with all birds getting brutally killed en masse by Green Energy and clear liberal double standards? No we have something to fight with....
>
>
>
> At minimum it drives the liberals crazy. And that ain't half bad...
>
>
>
> ;-)
>
>

[Sean Fidler]

PETA, I'll pass. Those kids are crazy :-)

OK boys, good luck stopping the liberals and their construction of bird blending windmills on your favorite soaring ridges. I strongly suggest raising your tempo. Your dealing with crazed liberals. They only way to defeat them is to beat them at their own games. Sickening, but the reality of the world we now live in.

Sean

[Two Shoes (Judson Knowles)]

AGREED! That's the "Far Side", just before the ecco-terrorist organizations like ALF.

Enjoyed reading your research.

On Monday, March 24, 2014 2:58:32 PM UTC-6, Sean Fidler wrote:
> PETA, I'll pass. Those kids are crazy :-)

[son_of_flubber]

On Monday, March 24, 2014 1:35:37 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:

> I am not a member of the US Soaring Team.

Sorry that I seem to have mixed you up with Sean Franke.

[JS]

Me thinks this thread has lost the plot, and likely the interest of some who would have otherwise helped out.
Jim

[Kevin Christner]

> I am not a member of the US Soaring Team. I was invited to consider serving as a Team Captain, but had to turn it down as I could not take 4 weeks off this summer.


Honestly that is just plain scary. Your absolute disregard and disrespect of almost everyone involved in racing makes you absolutely unsuitable for such a role. I really hope someone from the USTC will respond to this and let us know that you delusional and no such offer was made.

[[email protected]]

On Monday, March 24, 2014 9:08:06 PM UTC-5, Kevin Christner wrote:
> > I am not a member of the US Soaring Team. I was invited to consider serving as a Team Captain, but had to turn it down as I could not take 4 weeks off this summer.
>
>
>
>
>
> Honestly that is just plain scary. Your absolute disregard and disrespect of almost everyone involved in racing makes you absolutely unsuitable for such a role. I really hope someone from the USTC will respond to this and let us know that you delusional and no such offer was made.

Thanks Kevin! The last thing we need is someone like this self-declared bird watcher (but only for 'majestic' raptors) in a position of responsibility and leadership in anything related to soaring.

[Sean Fidler]

Kevin and Herb,

You are both complete and utter idiots. Talk about ego's. Good luck with them.

Sean

On Tuesday, March 25, 2014 9:56:14 AM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Monday, March 24, 2014 9:08:06 PM UTC-5, Kevin Christner wrote:
>
> > > I am not a member of the US Soaring Team. I was invited to consider serving as a Team Captain, but had to turn it down as I could not take 4 weeks off this summer.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Honestly that is just plain scary. Your absolute disregard and disrespect of almost everyone involved in racing makes you absolutely unsuitable for such a role. I really hope someone from the USTC will respond to this and let us know that you delusional and no such offer was made.
>
>
>
> Thanks Kevin! The last thing we need is someone like this self-declared bird watcher (but only for 'majestic' raptors) in a position of responsibility and leadership in anything related to soaring.

[[email protected]]

Sean, do you carry a gun with you when you fly, for, you know, just in case..?

[Sean Fidler]

Do you really think that Kevin Christner is this crazy? Perhaps you're right.

[Dan Marotta]

Hey, goto-Guy! I was shocked to find myself somewhat agreeing with you but,
then it occurred to me: I, too, would rather look at a girlie calendar than
a picture of Whoopie Goldberg.


"gotovkotzepkoi" > wrote in
message ...
>
> Ban all glass windows! They are a liberal plot to rob you of your
> freedom to to be cold and windblown whenever you feel like it.
>
> See, the other day I was sitting in a service station minding my own
> business while my oil was being changed. It was a nice day and sun was
> streaming into the large floor to ceiling windows of this arch
> conservative establishment. As a liberal I was trying to keep a low
> profile and get back to friendly territory (a used bookstore or
> something) unharmed. I think I was covertly admiring the girly calender
> on the wall when I was distracted by a very loud thud coming from behind
> me. I turned around and noticed a large black bird, crumpled on the the
> sidewalk, feathers in disarray, slightly twitching. At a height of about
> 1 meter above the sidewalk, roughly behind where my head had been, there
> was a faint, bloody smudge on the glass. Funny thing is that there was
> one of those bird silhouette stickers stuck to the glass window about 2
> meters away. I guess the bird missed the pre flight briefing on what
> these stickers mean.
>
> I can only guess that this bird was on a suicide, kamikaze mission to
> take out the liberal zealot who had been recently out'ed as someone in
> favor of wind turbines. In his zeal to reach the target the bird failed
> to notice the thick plate glass blocking his trajectory. May he RIP.
>
>
>
>
> --
> gotovkotzepkoi

[Sean Fidler]

http://www.mifflincompplan.com/2014mapsanddrafts/Mifflin%20County%20Wind%20Energy%20Facilities%20Mo del%20Ordinance_draft2.21.14.pdf

Not a word about bird impacts or safety concerns in here. Might be a good place to start engaging them.

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, March 27, 2014 12:06:12 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
> http://www.mifflincompplan.com/2014mapsanddrafts/Mifflin%20County%20Wind%20Energy%20Facilities%20Mo del%20Ordinance_draft2.21.14.pdf Not a word about bird impacts or safety concerns in here. Might be a good place to start engaging them.

Interesting read.
Note B5 with respect to slope in area of installation. This might well preclude installation at ridge top.
FWIW
UH

[Soartech]

On Thursday, March 27, 2014 12:22:52 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Thursday, March 27, 2014 12:06:12 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
>
> > http://www.mifflincompplan.com/2014mapsanddrafts/Mifflin%20County%20Wind%20Energy%20Facilities%20Mo del%20Ordinance_draft2.21.14.pdf Not a word about bird impacts or safety concerns in here. Might be a good place to start engaging them.
>
>
>
> Interesting read.
>
> Note B5 with respect to slope in area of installation. This might well preclude installation at ridge top.
>
> FWIW
>
> UH

No, I think it says that the land can ONLY be on a ridge top (flat). Here is the text:
5. No (wind energy facility) shall be located on a lot of record containing slopes equal to or exceeding 15% on 50% or more of the lot of record. This standard shall apply to each lot where a Primary Wind Energy Facility extends across multiple lots of record.

[[email protected]]

On Thursday, March 27, 2014 12:54:39 PM UTC-4, Soartech wrote:
> On Thursday, March 27, 2014 12:22:52 PM UTC-4, wrote: > On Thursday, March 27, 2014 12:06:12 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote: > > > http://www.mifflincompplan.com/2014mapsanddrafts/Mifflin%20County%20Wind%20Energy%20Facilities%20Mo del%20Ordinance_draft2.21.14.pdf Not a word about bird impacts or safety concerns in here. Might be a good place to start engaging them. > > > > Interesting read. > > Note B5 with respect to slope in area of installation. This might well preclude installation at ridge top. > > FWIW > > UH No, I think it says that the land can ONLY be on a ridge top (flat). Here is the text: 5. No (wind energy facility) shall be located on a lot of record containing slopes equal to or exceeding 15% on 50% or more of the lot of record. This standard shall apply to each lot where a Primary Wind Energy Facility extends across multiple lots of record.

The Jacks mountain ridge tops are not flat.
UH

[Kevin Brooker]

The birds are a nice idea but what makes things click is money. If the construction on the towers reduces the amount of cash brought into the valley and surrounding areas due to tourism (lodging, food, fuel, etc.) there is a good chance the local citizenry will want to stop the projects. If the turbines become the dominant use of the ridge and exclude the inflow of cash from out of state there is a big incentive to enjoin the construction.

What is the economic impact of soaring on the area? Not just contests but pilots coming to the area to fly all throughout the year? How pivotal is soaring from Mifflin to the local economy?

The towers might reduce energy costs, lower property taxes and look good on paper but if the inflow of cash is reduced enough, the aforementioned benefits are just lost leaders and ultimately increase living in the valley.

[Jim[_18_]]

Sean, The oil industry kills many more birds, should we do away with fossil fuels too?

I voted against the turbines.

I agree with Juan and JS, lets leave the politics out of this forum.

Jim Dingess

[Sean Fidler]

Jim,

WIth due respect, where did you get these data on the oil industry killing more birds than green energy wind turbines? Please share this data with us so we can study it.

I dont understand this kind of argument to be honest. Johny does it too? Seriously? This somehow makes the fact that thousands and thousands of birds are being brutally killed every day by wind turbines, OK?

Regardless, I can't imagine that hundreds of thousands of wind turbines (and growing) spinning almost continuously exactly at the altitude 99% of birds fly kills LESS birds than the oil industry. Are you talking about the oil spills? But I look forward to seeing these data, albeit completely meaningless in the context of the discussion here about green energy wind turbines, liberal hypocritism and their clear willingness to kill numerous birds when their political goals are counter to them.

Sean

Furthermore why does that matter? We are talking about wind turbines killing birdsOn Friday, March 28, 2014 6:29:20 PM UTC-4, Jim wrote:
> Sean, The oil industry kills many more birds, should we do away with fossil fuels too?
>
>
>
> I voted against the turbines.
>
>
>
> I agree with Juan and JS, lets leave the politics out of this forum.
>
>
>
> Jim Dingess

[GM]

On Saturday, March 29, 2014 11:14:05 AM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
> Jim,
>
>
>
> WIth due respect, where did you get these data on the oil industry killing more birds than green energy wind turbines? Please share this data with us so we can study it.
>
>
>
> I dont understand this kind of argument to be honest. Johny does it too? Seriously? This somehow makes the fact that thousands and thousands of birds are being brutally killed every day by wind turbines, OK?
>
>
>
> Regardless, I can't imagine that hundreds of thousands of wind turbines (and growing) spinning almost continuously exactly at the altitude 99% of birds fly kills LESS birds than the oil industry. Are you talking about the oil spills? But I look forward to seeing these data, albeit completely meaningless in the context of the discussion here about green energy wind turbines, liberal hypocritism and their clear willingness to kill numerous birds when their political goals are counter to them.
>
>
>
> Sean

Sean,
let me ask where you got your info and wisdom about the fact that wind turbines are killing birds? The internet? Remember - you can't believe anything you read on the internet! That is exactly how WW-I got started....

>> Please share this data with us so we can study it. <<
Who is WE? You have a group of expert helping you or are you talking about yourself in first person plural now?

Wind turbines must be built on ridge lines nowadays since the ones built in the flat-lands are becoming less and less effective. The bird-carcasses are piling up around them so high by now that the blade tips are touching the top of these piles thus slowing them down. Building them on ridge lines allows the greedy and bird hating operators to bulldoze the dead birds into the valleys to keep their evil machines going.

Again Sean, where did you gain your in-depth knowledge about the ill-effects of wind energy? You work in the industry, have visited countless wind parks, climbed turbines, inspected blades by rappelling down on them, etc.? I asked you that question once before a while back and only got a 'you are the man' as a reply - very deep, indeed. I bet you have never even been near a turbine or wind park, have you? Should I be wrong here, my sincere apologies but please cite the name of the park.
You will notice that I do not post any link(s) in support of wind energy. No matter which link one picks, it is always sponsored by someone either pro or con wind/renewable energies. But then again, I don't need to - I work in the industry and have done/am doing all the things mentioned above except the rappelling thing (need special training for that but I am very close to someone who does just that for a living) and I know that the arguments you are calling facts are nothing but mindless re-posts of the most extreme arguments one can find on the internet rather than based on first hand knowledge and expertise.
Let me convey a bit of wisdom my dad gave me on my way in the form of a little prayer: 'Dear God, please help me to keep my mouth shut for at least as long as it takes to know what it is that I am talking about' It might help you as well.

Uli

P.S.: let me know if you have trouble picking out the paragraph(s) written in total sarcasm ....

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Sat, 29 Mar 2014 08:14:05 -0700, Sean Fidler wrote:

> WIth due respect, where did you get these data on the oil industry
> killing more birds than green energy wind turbines? Please share this
> data with us so we can study it.
>
Oddly, enough data on ONE large spill appeared in this week's New
Scientist.

Spill: Exxon Valdez, a 40 million litre crude oil spill. That is
approximately 10 million gallons.

Damage: 2100 km of coastline contaminated. Estimated that 250,000
seabirds, 2000 sea otters, 300 harbour seals, 250 bald eagles were
killed. Fisheries were closed during the cleanup, so a big impact on
fishermen.

Source: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn25263-is-exxon-valdez-oil-
still-a-threat-25-years-on.html

Other: Infoplease http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001451.html
lists 28 other major spills between 1967 and 2010. These are all on land
or within 10 miles of a coast, so probably have a similar effect on
wildlife, fisheries, etc to the Exxon Valdez.

The total spill is 1112 million gallons during 43 years.

OK, wildlife death toll. Lets assume the damage from these spills is half
that of Exxon Valdez per 1000 gals spilt because the Exxon Valdez spill
was at least half in an inlet while the others were mostly on more
exposed coasts. This gives a guestimated total kill that is 55.5 times
that of Exxon Valdez, so we get:

14,000,000 seabirds killed
16,500 seals killed (seals lived on most of those coasts)

There's too little data on coastline contamination to work from and most
other places don't have bald eagles or sea otters, so I've ignored these
factors.

Right: your turn, Sean. Lets see some actual numbers for wind turbine
bird kills and don't forget to quote your sources.

Please note:
============
I'm not just sticking an oar in and stirring for the sake of stirring.

I've also heard comments about birds being killed by wind turbines but,
with the exception of the video posted earlier on this thread, I've not
seen any hard, evidence with attributed data sources to back up the
assertions about bird kill. I'd like to see some, especially because the
UK might have more turbines per head of population than you guys have. I
can't go flying from GRL without seeing at least two wind farms.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Sean Fidler]

I think oil spills are terrible things. But liberal sponsored wind turbines methodically kill birds each and every day, week by week, year by year. I thought liberals wanted to protect our wildlife?

Oil spills are rare.

Let's stay focused on liberal windmills killing innocent birds. This is the key to keeping turbines off Karl's ridge. ;-)

Sean

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Sat, 29 Mar 2014 12:46:07 -0700, Sean Fidler wrote:

> I think oil spills are terrible things. But liberal sponsored wind
> turbines methodically kill birds each and every day, week by week, year
> by year. I thought liberals wanted to protect our wildlife?
>
> Oil spills are rare.
>
> Let's stay focused on liberal windmills killing innocent birds. This is
> the key to keeping turbines off Karl's ridge. ;-)
>
Forget liberals. You need hard numbers and the ability to say where they
come from if you're going to play the dead bird card, but so far there
are apparently no numbers and no reputable source for them.

Besides, if you look at that video really carefully, the blade doesn't
appear to hit the bird: it looks more like a very compact area of strong
turbulence broke its wing, which is odd because the bird seems to be
upwind of the turbine disk. Unless, of course, somebody shot it.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Two Shoes (Judson Knowles)]

You'll have to cut and pate as my ability to drop in a link seems to be lacking today...

Smithsonian article: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/ist/?next=/smart-news/how-many-birds-do-wind-turbines-really-kill-180948154/

Biological Conservation report: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006320713003522

This article has links to 2 studies, one lists the results of the 2009 US Fish and Wildlife report, the other is a by someone else, but more recent : http://www.birdwatchingdaily.com/blog/2013/07/17/new-study-estimates-573000-birds-died-at-wind-farms-last-year/

Here is the link to the Abstract by K. Shawn Smallwood, MAR 2013, full article requires membership: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/wsb.260/abstract

Why is everyone so lazy that they need to be spoon fed this? Is your Google-Fu that weak?

I'm not posting for one side or the other, just to show if one wants data, it is out there. I guess whomever reads any of this will need to determine if they are "reliable" sources or not.

[Two Shoes (Judson Knowles)]

Ooo... it has the links for me! Yay!

[Martin Gregorie[_5_]]

On Sat, 29 Mar 2014 14:37:49 -0700, Two Shoes (Judson Knowles) wrote:

> Why is everyone so lazy that they need to be spoon fed this? Is your
> Google-Fu that weak?
>
Speaking entirely for myself, my search skills are fine: took me about
two searches to find the stuff on birds killed by oil spills.

I considered looking for the US turbine stuff myself but decided not to:
since those quoting very large bird kill numbers sounded so sure they
knew the facts I thought it would be better to ask them what they based
their assertions on, which is what I did. Besides, UK figures are more
interesting to me.

T'was interesting to see just how little peer-reviewed literature there
is on the subject *and* that the best the Smithsonian could do was to
quote somebody else: I thought they were the sort of outfit that would do
their own research.

It was also interesting to compare annual kill rate estimates for the
entire US installed turbine collection with the estimates for the overall
Exxon Valdez spill's figure, so thanks for the links you've provided.
I'll be interested to see what data some others have.

Doing a similar search for the UK is on my todo list.

> I'm not posting for one side or the other, just to show if one wants
> data, it is out there. I guess whomever reads any of this will need to
> determine if they are "reliable" sources or not.
>
Indeed, but at least we know who made the estimates and what methods they
used.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Sean Fidler]

Great post Judson.

[Eric Greenwell[_4_]]

Your efforts to keep wind turbines off the ridges will have a greater
chance of success if you stick to what the wind turbines are doing, and
forget about attacking "liberals". You are making more enemies than
friends for your cause with your obsession over "liberals".

Liberals like animals and birds. Enlist their aid instead of attacking a
group that is far from homogenous in it's goals and passions.

Sean Fidler wrote, On 3/23/2014 11:36 AM:
> On Saturday, March 22, 2014 11:15:08 PM UTC-4, Whiskey Charlie
> wrote:
>> You never know...
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/prctuan
>
> That is hilarious WC. And so timely...
>
> Notice how the liberal hordes have absolutely no heart. This is the
> sad truth about liberals. They only act as if they have feelings for
> animals when it serves their political goals. The reality is that
> thousands of magnificent (and often endangered) birds are being
> killed each and every hour by "green" energy wind turbines. You
> could not design a better method of killing soaring birds (other than
> placing them on top of a ridge...) that green energy wind turbines.
>
> The reality is that liberals do not care about birds being killed and
> suffering in horrible agony until they die when struck by their
> "green energy" producing turbine blades. They care about forcing non
> liberals to conform to their utopian fantasy of how the world should
> be. At any cost. Remember the tale of the "spotted owl?"
>
> Above we see a classic liberal happy to devalue all bird life and
> their right to live free of a green energy caused massacre (by wind
> turbines). Instead of taking any responsibility, the liberal drone
> instead tries to argue that house-cats are a more important threats
> to consider for these birds. So therefore the wind turbine bird
> massacre is "not his green energy causes fault" because house cats
> also kill birds? Amazing...
>
> Clearly the bald eagle in the photo is not very concerned about that
> house cat. More like happy to have such an easy meal.
>
> I wonder how long that bird in the video suffered in that parking lot
> before it finally died. A day? Two days? A week? Maybe a house
> cat came along and helped put it out of its misery faster than it
> would have died on its own?
>
> Its truly a challenge to follow a liberals logic.
>
> ;-)
>


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorgliders/publications/download-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl