Another ID change for Smoketown? (37PA, Q08, S37)

[Jeff Saylor]

I noticed in the new New York Sectional (just came out a few days ago)
that the Smoketown, Pennsylvania (just east of Lancaster) has a new
identifier, S37.

Ok, identifiers change sometimes, but a few years ago Smoketown changed
from 37PA to Q08, presumably in the effort to make public use airports 3
digits.

Now it changed yet again...why? Was there a problem with Q08--perhaps
being confused with somebody else in the area? (Most one letter- two
number airport IDs in Pennsylvania/ NJ begin with N.)

What's even stranger is that 37PA was subsequently used by a heliport
(IIRC) and it is now the identifier for private use Roadcap Airport in
western PA, which was previously known as 31N. 31N has not been
reallocated as far as I can tell.

So what's with the musical identifiers? A secret evil plot by the GPS
database providers?

[zatatime]

On Sun, 16 May 2004 00:12:55 -0400, Jeff Saylor
> wrote:

>I noticed in the new New York Sectional (just came out a few days ago)
>that the Smoketown, Pennsylvania (just east of Lancaster) has a new
>identifier, S37.
>
>Ok, identifiers change sometimes, but a few years ago Smoketown changed
>from 37PA to Q08, presumably in the effort to make public use airports 3
>digits.
>
>Now it changed yet again...why? Was there a problem with Q08--perhaps
>being confused with somebody else in the area? (Most one letter- two
>number airport IDs in Pennsylvania/ NJ begin with N.)
>
>What's even stranger is that 37PA was subsequently used by a heliport
>(IIRC) and it is now the identifier for private use Roadcap Airport in
>western PA, which was previously known as 31N. 31N has not been
>reallocated as far as I can tell.
>
>So what's with the musical identifiers? A secret evil plot by the GPS
>database providers?
>
>


Very odd. All I can imagine is that people didn't know if the 0 was a
zero, or an O. Otherwise I'd just blame it on the feds trying to keep
busy.<g>

z

[Jeff Saylor]

Jeff Saylor wrote:

> So what's with the musical identifiers? A secret evil plot by the GPS
> database providers?

Here's another interesting case, Drummond (Montana) Airport lost its three
letter identifier, DRU (or KDRU) recently. It is now M26. It will be
interesting to see where KDRU pops up next, I don't know of many cases where
an airport lost its 3 letter id.

[Jeff Saylor]

Jeff Saylor wrote:

> I noticed in the new New York Sectional (just came out a few days ago)
> that the Smoketown, Pennsylvania (just east of Lancaster) has a new
> identifier, S37.
>
> Ok, identifiers change sometimes, but a few years ago Smoketown changed
> from 37PA to Q08, presumably in the effort to make public use airports 3
> digits.
>
> Now it changed yet again...why? Was there a problem with Q08--perhaps
> being confused with somebody else in the area? (Most one letter- two
> number airport IDs in Pennsylvania/ NJ begin with N.)

Looking further, a bunch of Q-number-number ID's have changed recently to
something else. Perhaps the FAA no longer likes identifers that begin with
Q? Still its strange that they just assigned one to Smoketown a few years
ago only to change it now.

Here's a bad one, 6PA4 (Morgantown, PA) became O03. (That's letter
O-Zero-Three.)

[G. Burkhart]

I may be wrong, but don't most 3-letter identifiers offer weather reporting
of some type? There are probably exceptions, but if the identifier contains
numbers, they don't offer weather reporting. I have seen identifiers change
from having numbers to all letters when they got AWOS. I suppose if they
lose their weather reporting, they could revert to an identifier with
numbers.

I remember reading online about airport identifiers a while back. Now, if
only I can find it again...


"Jeff Saylor" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Jeff Saylor wrote:
>
> > So what's with the musical identifiers? A secret evil plot by the GPS
> > database providers?
>
> Here's another interesting case, Drummond (Montana) Airport lost its three
> letter identifier, DRU (or KDRU) recently. It is now M26. It will be
> interesting to see where KDRU pops up next, I don't know of many cases
where
> an airport lost its 3 letter id.
>
>
>

[Jeff Saylor]

"G. Burkhart" wrote:

> I may be wrong, but don't most 3-letter identifiers offer weather reporting
> of some type? There are probably exceptions, but if the identifier contains
> numbers, they don't offer weather reporting. I have seen identifiers change
> from having numbers to all letters when they got AWOS.

That's usually true. An exception is G. O. Carlson-Chester County Airport,
Pennsylvania. It's had weather reporting for a while now and I've heard of no
plans to change its identifer from 40N.


> I suppose if they
> lose their weather reporting, they could revert to an identifier with
> numbers.
>
> I remember reading online about airport identifiers a while back. Now, if
> only I can find it again...

I don't think DRU ever had wx reporting but could be wrong. My guess is that FAA
wants to reserve DRU/ KDRU for someplace else, it's just unusual to see an
airport lose a three letter. Those three letter ID's are probably getting
pretty scarce, especially with all of the weather machines deployed everywhere.

[John Clear]

In article >,
Jeff Saylor > wrote:
>Jeff Saylor wrote:
>> Now it changed yet again...why? Was there a problem with Q08--perhaps
>> being confused with somebody else in the area? (Most one letter- two
>> number airport IDs in Pennsylvania/ NJ begin with N.)
>
>Looking further, a bunch of Q-number-number ID's have changed recently to
>something else. Perhaps the FAA no longer likes identifers that begin with
>Q? Still its strange that they just assigned one to Smoketown a few years
>ago only to change it now.

South County (Q99) is changing to E16. The change is due to the
conflict with Q identifiers used on RNAV routes.

John
--
John Clear - http://www.panix.com/~jac

[G. Burkhart]

"Jeff Saylor" > wrote in message
...
> That's usually true. An exception is G. O. Carlson-Chester County
Airport,
> Pennsylvania. It's had weather reporting for a while now and I've heard
of no
> plans to change its identifer from 40N.
>
> >
> > I remember reading online about airport identifiers a while back. Now,
if
> > only I can find it again...
>

I found the identifier information at
http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/LID/LIDHME.htm and
http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/LID/ch1.htm

[EDR]

In article <fdCpc.56114$536.9689876@attbi_s03>, G. Burkhart
> wrote:

> I remember reading online about airport identifiers a while back. Now, if
> only I can find it again...

IIRC... it is an ICAO requirement.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Jeff Saylor" > wrote in message
...
>
> Here's another interesting case, Drummond (Montana) Airport lost
> its three letter identifier, DRU (or KDRU) recently. It is now M26.
> It will be interesting to see where KDRU pops up next, I don't
> know of many cases where an airport lost its 3 letter id.
>

Three-letter identifiers are assigned to navaids; to airports with a manned
air traffic control facility or navigational aid within airport boundary; to
airports that receive scheduled route air carrier or military airlift
service, and to airports designated by the U.S. Customs Service as Airports
of Entry. DRU VOR is close by, but it's not within the airport boundary, so
DRU should never have been the identifier for Drummond Airport. Apparently
somebody finally caught the error.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"G. Burkhart" > wrote in message
news:fdCpc.56114$536.9689876@attbi_s03...
>
> I remember reading online about airport identifiers a while back.
> Now, if only I can find it again...
>

http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/LID/LIDHME.htm

[Jeff Saylor]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

> "Jeff Saylor" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Here's another interesting case, Drummond (Montana) Airport lost
> > its three letter identifier, DRU (or KDRU) recently. It is now M26.
> > It will be interesting to see where KDRU pops up next, I don't
> > know of many cases where an airport lost its 3 letter id.
> >
>
> Three-letter identifiers are assigned to navaids; to airports with a manned
> air traffic control facility or navigational aid within airport boundary; to
> airports that receive scheduled route air carrier or military airlift service,
> and to airports designated by the U.S. Customs Service as Airports of Entry.

>

I believe airports with weather reporting capability also qualify; many airports
that do not meet the qualifications above received all letters after their new
ASOS/AWOS was comissioned. On a related note, a bunch of VORs that had the same
3 letter ID as airports that they were near had their IDs changed a number of
years ago. For example the Williamsport (Pa) VOR had its ID changed from IPT
to FQM. I've wondered if the letters FQM stand for anything but as far as I can
tell it's just a random identifier. The VOR is a distance away from IPT (KIPT)
the airport, and sits atop a mountain ridge. Apparently some pilots flew to the
mountain instead of the airport.

On the other hand MHT VOR is 4.8 miles away from KMHT (Manchester NH) airport
and they share the same identifier.

This appears to violate 7350.7N 1-2-5
1-2-5 Duplication
a. At the same location, the same identifier may be assigned to one
navigational aid (which must be located within the airport boundary), to the
airport, to a manned air traffic control facility, and to an aviation weather
station on the airport. With certain restrictions, variations of the airport
identifier may be assigned also to landing systems.


> DRU VOR is close by, but it's not within the airport boundary, so DRU should never have been the identifier for Drummond Airport. Apparently
> somebody finally caught the error.
>
7350.7N 1-2-4 doesn't make it clear that this is ground for changing the
identifier that has been assigned, although it is probably safe to assume that
if the VOR could no longer share its ID with the airport than this airport was
less important.

1-2-4 Permanence.
Established three-letter identifiers are considered permanent and will not be
changed without strong and documented justification, primarily concerning air
safety. Other than three-letter identifiers may be changed when the status of a
landing facility changes, e.g. private-use to public-use, etc.

[Richard Kaplan]

"G. Burkhart" > wrote in message
news:fdCpc.56114$536.9689876@attbi_s03...

> I may be wrong, but don't most 3-letter identifiers offer weather
reporting
> of some type? There are probably exceptions, but if the identifier
contains
> numbers, they don't offer weather reporting. I have seen identifiers
change

My home base of KWAY has no weather reporting and not even a published
instrument approach (though an approach is in the design process finally).


--------------------
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

[Richard Kaplan]

"Jeff Saylor" > wrote in message
...

> That's usually true. An exception is G. O. Carlson-Chester County
Airport,
> Pennsylvania. It's had weather reporting for a while now and I've heard
of no
> plans to change its identifer from 40N.

The primary motivating factor to change to a 3-letter identifier is when an
airport has a localizer or ILS approach. The FAA has decided they want the
navaid ID to match the airport ID, i.e. in Pennsylvania 2G3 was changed to
KVVS because the localizer is IVVS and the NDB/FAF is VV.

--------------------
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

[Richard Kaplan]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
link.net...

> Three-letter identifiers are assigned to navaids; to airports with a
manned
> air traffic control facility or navigational aid within airport boundary;
to
> airports that receive scheduled route air carrier or military airlift
> service, and to airports designated by the U.S. Customs Service as
Airports
> of Entry.

KWAY meets none of these requirements. As far as I know it never met the
requirements although I cannot say that with certainty.

Why does it have a 3-letter identifier?


--------------------
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Jeff Saylor" > wrote in message
...
>
> I believe airports with weather reporting capability also qualify;
> many airports that do not meet the qualifications above received
> all letters after their new ASOS/AWOS was comissioned.
>

Yes, I meant to include that. I didn't copy far enough.


>
> On a related note, a bunch of VORs that had the same 3 letter
> ID as airports that they were near had their IDs changed a
> number of years ago. For example the Williamsport (Pa) VOR
> had its ID changed from IPT to FQM. I've wondered if the
> letters FQM stand for anything but as far as I can tell it's just a
> random identifier. The VOR is a distance away from IPT (KIPT)
> the airport, and sits atop a mountain ridge. Apparently some
> pilots flew to the mountain instead of the airport.
>
> On the other hand MHT VOR is 4.8 miles away from KMHT
> (Manchester NH) airport and they share the same identifier.
>
> This appears to violate 7350.7N 1-2-5
> 1-2-5 Duplication
> a. At the same location, the same identifier may be assigned to
> one navigational aid (which must be located within the airport
> boundary), to the airport, to a manned air traffic control facility,
> and to an aviation weather station on the airport. With certain
> restrictions, variations of the airport identifier may be assigned
> also to landing systems.
>

The location identifier criteria obviously changed over time. About twenty
years ago navaids that shared their identifiers with airports but weren't
located on the field began having their identifiers changed. But not all of
them were changed, those that were fairly close were left alone. The cutoff
seemed to be about five miles.


>
> 7350.7N 1-2-4 doesn't make it clear that this is ground for
> changing the identifier that has been assigned, although it is probably
> safe to assume that if the VOR could no longer share its ID with the
> airport than this airport was less important.
>
> 1-2-4 Permanence.
> Established three-letter identifiers are considered permanent and will
> not be changed without strong and documented justification, primarily
> concerning air safety. Other than three-letter identifiers may be
> changed when the status of a landing facility changes, e.g. private-use
> to public-use, etc.
>

FAAO 7350.7 doesn't say anything about what conditions constitute grounds
for changing a 3-letter identifier, but quite a few have changed over the
years nonetheless. DRU is different than any other I've seen change. All
the rest were VORs, which qualify for 3-letter identifiers on their own,
they were just changed to some other 3-letter identifier because they shared
the identifier with an airport some distance away, an airport which also
qualified for a 3-letter identifier on it's own.

But Drummond Airport doesn't qualify for a 3-letter identifier on it's own,
it's not even close. It's just a single short turf strip, 2400 feet, with
no services or lighting. One wonders why it ever had a 3-letter identifier.
One wonders so much that one is compelled to dig out some old publications
that explain it.

Drummond Airport is a former CAA Intermediate Field, it was Site 44B on the
Seattle-Helena airway, part of Green 2. In 1945 the runway was 3600 feet
long, it had runway and obstruction lights, a rotating beacon with course
lights, and an Airway Communication Station (FSS). There was a rotating
airway beacon with course lights, Site 44A on the airway, about three miles
northwest of the field, Drummond Radio Range was about a mile and a half
northeast of the field. The range identifier was DR.

By 1947 an Airport Approach Zone had been added.

By 1954 Drummond VOR/DME was in operation, located immediately south of the
radio range. The range and VOR shared the identifier DRU. Victor 2 had
been established coincident with Green 2. The runway had been reduced to
2600 feet.

By 1962 Green 2 had been disestablished. The radio range was still there
but the identifier had been changed to DU. The VOR, instead of showing DME,
now shows NSME-Non Standard Measuring Equipment. I haven't a clue what that
was.

By 1967 the radio range was gone, the airway beacon was gone, the FSS was
gone, and the VOR had no measuring equipment at all.

In 1972 the airport beacon and course lights were still in operation, as was
the field lighting.

By 1987 the course lights and field lighting were gone, but the airport
beacon was still in operation. The runway was down to it's present 2400
feet.

By 2001 the airport beacon was gone.

The chart segment available on AeroPlanner.com still shows the airport
identifier to be DRU, so the change was very recent.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Richard Kaplan" > wrote in message
s.com...
>
> KWAY meets none of these requirements. As far as I know it
> never met the requirements although I cannot say that with certainty.
>
> Why does it have a 3-letter identifier?
>

We discussed that one some time ago. I can find no reason for that airport
to ever have a 3-letter identifier. Today, the FAA does not assign any
3-letter identifiers beginning with K, N, Q, W, Y, or Z. An identifier
beginning with W would be assigned only by the FCC. Anything in the local
history about a commercial broadcast station using those letters?

[Richard Kaplan]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
link.net...

> beginning with W would be assigned only by the FCC. Anything in the local
> history about a commercial broadcast station using those letters?

Interesting question but I am not aware of any such history.

--------------------
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

[Hilton]

John Clear wrote:

> South County (Q99) is changing to E16.

1. When?
2. How do you know?

Thanks,

Hilton

[Marty Shapiro]

"Hilton" > wrote in
k.net:

> John Clear wrote:
>
>> South County (Q99) is changing to E16.
>
> 1. When?
> 2. How do you know?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Hilton
>
>
>

I was informed of this change by the Director of Santa Clara County
Airports by email:

To all users of South County Airport (San Martin, California),
We have been notified by the FAA's National Flight Data Center that
effective on June 10, 2004 the South County Airport Identifier will be
officially changed from Q99 to E16. This change is due to a conflict of
Area Navigation Routes (RNAV) identifiers that begin with the letter "Q"
and airport identifiers that also begin with the letter "Q". The FAA will
notify all aerial chart manufacturers of this change, and new charts and
approach plates are expected to reflect this change in the next series of
publication releases. Please note this change for your records. The
County Airports staff will make the necessary changes in signage, websites
and other County documents as required.
Thanks,

Carl Honaker
Director
Santa Clara County Airports


--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

[G.R. Patterson III]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:
>
> Anything in the local
> history about a commercial broadcast station using those letters?

KWAY is an FM station in Waverly, Iowa.

George Patterson
I childproofed my house, but they *still* get in.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"G.R. Patterson III" > wrote in message
...
>
> KWAY is an FM station in Waverly, Iowa.
>

Radio station identifiers don't work the same way airport identifiers do.
KWLS is an AM station in Pratt, Kansas; WLS is an AM station in Chicago,
Illinois.

[Jeff Saylor]

Marty Shapiro wrote:

> "Hilton" > wrote in
> k.net:
>
> > John Clear wrote:
> >
> >> South County (Q99) is changing to E16.
> >
> > 1. When?
> > 2. How do you know?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Hilton
> >
> >
> >
>
> I was informed of this change by the Director of Santa Clara County
> Airports by email:
>
> To all users of South County Airport (San Martin, California),
> We have been notified by the FAA's National Flight Data Center that
> effective on June 10, 2004 the South County Airport Identifier will be
> officially changed from Q99 to E16. This change is due to a conflict of
> Area Navigation Routes (RNAV) identifiers that begin with the letter "Q"
> and airport identifiers that also begin with the letter "Q". The FAA will
> notify all aerial chart manufacturers of this change, and new charts and
> approach plates are expected to reflect this change in the next series of
> publication releases. Please note this change for your records. The
> County Airports staff will make the necessary changes in signage, websites
> and other County documents as required.

I wonder why they don't synchronize this with the Sectional publication
dates. The next San Francisco chart will come out in early September.

An airport in NJ, Lincoln Park, had a pattern changed from right traffic to
left recently. That information came out late last summer, the November New
York sectional did not reflect the change. The new chart which came out this
month reflects the change.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Jeff Saylor" > wrote in message
...
>
> I wonder why they don't synchronize this with the Sectional publication
> dates. The next San Francisco chart will come out in early September.
>
> An airport in NJ, Lincoln Park, had a pattern changed from right
> traffic to left recently. That information came out late last summer,
> the November New York sectional did not reflect the change.
> The new chart which came out this month reflects the change.
>

Sectional charts are updated during their 6 month lifespan via the
Aeronautical Chart Bulletin in the Airport/Facility Directory.

[Jeff Saylor]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

> "Jeff Saylor" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > I believe airports with weather reporting capability also qualify;
> > many airports that do not meet the qualifications above received
> > all letters after their new ASOS/AWOS was comissioned.
> >
>
> Yes, I meant to include that. I didn't copy far enough.
>
> >
> > On a related note, a bunch of VORs that had the same 3 letter
> > ID as airports that they were near had their IDs changed a
> > number of years ago. For example the Williamsport (Pa) VOR
> > had its ID changed from IPT to FQM. I've wondered if the
> > letters FQM stand for anything but as far as I can tell it's just a
> > random identifier. The VOR is a distance away from IPT (KIPT)
> > the airport, and sits atop a mountain ridge. Apparently some
> > pilots flew to the mountain instead of the airport.
> >
> > On the other hand MHT VOR is 4.8 miles away from KMHT
> > (Manchester NH) airport and they share the same identifier.
> >
> > This appears to violate 7350.7N 1-2-5
> > 1-2-5 Duplication
> > a. At the same location, the same identifier may be assigned to
> > one navigational aid (which must be located within the airport
> > boundary), to the airport, to a manned air traffic control facility,
> > and to an aviation weather station on the airport. With certain
> > restrictions, variations of the airport identifier may be assigned
> > also to landing systems.
> >
>
> The location identifier criteria obviously changed over time. About twenty
> years ago navaids that shared their identifiers with airports but weren't
> located on the field began having their identifiers changed. But not all of
> them were changed, those that were fairly close were left alone. The cutoff
> seemed to be about five miles.
>
> >
> > 7350.7N 1-2-4 doesn't make it clear that this is ground for
> > changing the identifier that has been assigned, although it is probably
> > safe to assume that if the VOR could no longer share its ID with the
> > airport than this airport was less important.
> >
> > 1-2-4 Permanence.
> > Established three-letter identifiers are considered permanent and will
> > not be changed without strong and documented justification, primarily
> > concerning air safety. Other than three-letter identifiers may be
> > changed when the status of a landing facility changes, e.g. private-use
> > to public-use, etc.
> >
>
> FAAO 7350.7 doesn't say anything about what conditions constitute grounds
> for changing a 3-letter identifier, but quite a few have changed over the
> years nonetheless. DRU is different than any other I've seen change. All
> the rest were VORs, which qualify for 3-letter identifiers on their own,
> they were just changed to some other 3-letter identifier because they shared
> the identifier with an airport some distance away, an airport which also
> qualified for a 3-letter identifier on it's own.

The strange thing is that they bothered removing the identifier that had already
been issued; there must have been a compelling reason to make a change beyond
the fact it didn't meet the criteria for a new 3 letter. I wouldn't be
surprised if KDRU shows up somewhere else in the next few years.


>
>
> But Drummond Airport doesn't qualify for a 3-letter identifier on it's own,
> it's not even close. It's just a single short turf strip, 2400 feet, with
> no services or lighting. One wonders why it ever had a 3-letter identifier.
> One wonders so much that one is compelled to dig out some old publications
> that explain it.
>
> Drummond Airport is a former CAA Intermediate Field, it was Site 44B on the
> Seattle-Helena airway, part of Green 2. In 1945 the runway was 3600 feet
> long, it had runway and obstruction lights, a rotating beacon with course
> lights, and an Airway Communication Station (FSS). There was a rotating
> airway beacon with course lights, Site 44A on the airway, about three miles
> northwest of the field, Drummond Radio Range was about a mile and a half
> northeast of the field. The range identifier was DR.
>
> By 1947 an Airport Approach Zone had been added.
>
> By 1954 Drummond VOR/DME was in operation, located immediately south of the
> radio range. The range and VOR shared the identifier DRU. Victor 2 had
> been established coincident with Green 2. The runway had been reduced to
> 2600 feet.
>
> By 1962 Green 2 had been disestablished. The radio range was still there
> but the identifier had been changed to DU. The VOR, instead of showing DME,
> now shows NSME-Non Standard Measuring Equipment. I haven't a clue what that
> was.
>
> By 1967 the radio range was gone, the airway beacon was gone, the FSS was
> gone, and the VOR had no measuring equipment at all.
>
> In 1972 the airport beacon and course lights were still in operation, as was
> the field lighting.
>
> By 1987 the course lights and field lighting were gone, but the airport
> beacon was still in operation. The runway was down to it's present 2400
> feet.
>
> By 2001 the airport beacon was gone.
>
> The chart segment available on AeroPlanner.com still shows the airport
> identifier to be DRU, so the change was very recent.

Interesting history. I wonder why the runway was shortened over the years.

[Jeff Saylor]

Richard Kaplan wrote:

> "Jeff Saylor" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > That's usually true. An exception is G. O. Carlson-Chester County
> Airport,
> > Pennsylvania. It's had weather reporting for a while now and I've heard
> of no
> > plans to change its identifer from 40N.
>
> The primary motivating factor to change to a 3-letter identifier is when an
> airport has a localizer or ILS approach. The FAA has decided they want the
> navaid ID to match the airport ID, i.e. in Pennsylvania 2G3 was changed to
> KVVS because the localizer is IVVS and the NDB/FAF is VV.

40N in Pennsylvania has had an ILS and weather reporting for many years. I've
never heard any plans to give it a three letter; it certainly deserves one based
on the FAA's criteria. Anybody know why this airport doesn't receive a new
identifier?

[Jeff Saylor]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

> "Jeff Saylor" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > I wonder why they don't synchronize this with the Sectional publication
> > dates. The next San Francisco chart will come out in early September.
> >
> > An airport in NJ, Lincoln Park, had a pattern changed from right
> > traffic to left recently. That information came out late last summer,
> > the November New York sectional did not reflect the change.
> > The new chart which came out this month reflects the change.
> >
>
> Sectional charts are updated during their 6 month lifespan via the
> Aeronautical Chart Bulletin in the Airport/Facility Directory.

Yes, that's how I noticed Lincoln Park's change :) Still for airport
changes that aren't urgent, I don't see the harm in synchronizing the change
with the sectional publication dates. Going through a list of fine print
changes in some publication isn't practical when you need to obtain
information in flight about an airport you weren't planning to stop at;
looking at the current sectional is. IFR pubs are updated much more often so
it really isn't much of an issue.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Jeff Saylor" > wrote in message
...
>
> The strange thing is that they bothered removing the identifier that
> had already been issued; there must have been a compelling reason
> to make a change beyond the fact it didn't meet the criteria for a
> new 3 letter.
>

I'm not sure I follow you. Many airports have had their identifiers changed
when they no longer met the criteria for the previous identifier. That
seems to be the case with Drummond Airport.


>
> I wouldn't be surprised if KDRU shows up somewhere else in
> the next few years.
>

I think that unlikely. Remember, the identifier for Drummond VOR is still
DRU, only the airport identifier was changed.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Jeff Saylor" > wrote in message
...
>
> 40N in Pennsylvania has had an ILS and weather reporting for
> many years. I've never heard any plans to give it a three letter;
> it certainly deserves one based on the FAA's criteria. Anybody
> know why this airport doesn't receive a new identifier?
>

One does not have to look hard to find deviations from the identifier
criteria. For example, the first and second letters or second and third
letters or third and first letters of a three-letter identifier are not
supposed to be duplicated with less than 200 nautical miles separation. ATW
is Outagamie County Airport in Appleton, WI. MTW is Manitowoc County
Airport, 37 miles ESE of ATW. AUW is Wausau Downtown Airport, 62 miles
northwest of ATW.

[Jeff Saylor]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

> "Jeff Saylor" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > The strange thing is that they bothered removing the identifier that
> > had already been issued; there must have been a compelling reason
> > to make a change beyond the fact it didn't meet the criteria for a
> > new 3 letter.
> >
>
> I'm not sure I follow you. Many airports have had their identifiers changed
> when they no longer met the criteria for the previous identifier. That
> seems to be the case with Drummond Airport.

But my point is, what is the compelling reason to change now? Presumably the
criteria for three letter id's is somewhat strict because the availability of
three letters is pretty finite.

Some non collocated VORs have had their ID changed from the same as the nearby
airport (e.g. Williamsport, Pa), some have not (e.g. Manchester, Nh; Pottstown,
Pa). Perhaps the relatively recent K prefix for lower 48 airports has
rendered the changes unnecessary.

> > I wouldn't be surprised if KDRU shows up somewhere else in
> > the next few years.
> >
>
> I think that unlikely. Remember, the identifier for Drummond VOR is still
> DRU, only the airport identifier was changed.

Maybe they needed it for 40N :)

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Jeff Saylor" > wrote in message
...
>
> But my point is, what is the compelling reason to change now?
>

Does there have to be a compelling reason? Criteria for identifiers have
been established, many identifiers are being changed because they don't fit
the criteria. I think that's all there is to it.


>
> Some non collocated VORs have had their ID changed from the
> same as the nearby airport (e.g. Williamsport, Pa), some have not
> (e.g. Manchester, Nh; Pottstown, Pa).
>

Yes, I believe I mentioned that. It appears the VORs that are fairly close
to the airports have been left alone while those that are further away have
been changed. The cutoff appears to be five miles.


>
> Perhaps the relatively recent K prefix for lower 48 airports has
> rendered the changes unnecessary.
>

There's nothing recent about that K.

[Teacherjh]

>>
> I wonder why they don't synchronize this with the Sectional publication
> dates. The next San Francisco chart will come out in early September.

Sectional charts are updated during their 6 month lifespan via the
Aeronautical Chart Bulletin in the Airport/Facility Directory.
<<

If the date of a change is optional, it would be better for pilots if the
change were synchronized, so that there would be fewer updates for pilots to
have to manually add to their charts. CDW recently changed its freq also, it
would have been nice if they had waited a few months.

Jose


--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Teacherjh" > wrote in message
...
> >>
> > I wonder why they don't synchronize this with the Sectional publication
> > dates. The next San Francisco chart will come out in early September.
>
> Sectional charts are updated during their 6 month lifespan via the
> Aeronautical Chart Bulletin in the Airport/Facility Directory.
> <<
>
> If the date of a change is optional, it would be better for pilots if the
> change were synchronized, so that there would be fewer updates
> for pilots to have to manually add to their charts. CDW recently
> changed its freq also, it would have been nice if they had waited a
> few months.
>

Frequencies are not changed on a whim, they're changed to correct a problem
somewhere. Delaying a change for a few months means putting up with the
problem for a few months. Updating a chart is easy.

[Jeff Saylor]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

> "Jeff Saylor" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > But my point is, what is the compelling reason to change now?
> >
>
> Does there have to be a compelling reason? Criteria for identifiers have
> been established, many identifiers are being changed because they don't fit
> the criteria. I think that's all there is to it.
>
> >
> > Some non collocated VORs have had their ID changed from the
> > same as the nearby airport (e.g. Williamsport, Pa), some have not
> > (e.g. Manchester, Nh; Pottstown, Pa).
> >
>
> Yes, I believe I mentioned that. It appears the VORs that are fairly close
> to the airports have been left alone while those that are further away have
> been changed. The cutoff appears to be five miles.

I looked at a number of airports that have common identifiers with VORs, or did
in the past and compared whether the VOR had its identifier changed or not. I
couldn't find any definate criteria, some VORs had been changed that are closer
to airports than VORs that had not been changed. Curiously, I couldn't find
where the replacement VOR identifiers came from; they must have been randomly
generated.

Airport / VOR distance
KMHT / MHT VOR 4.8 mi not changed
KABE / FJC VOR 4.5 mi changed
KAVP / LVZ VOR 4.2 mi changed (high terrain)
KLNS / LRP VOR 0.0 mi changed ON FIELD
KLEB / LEB VOR 5.0 mi not changed (high terrain)
KMPV / MPV VOR 8.6 mi not changed (Montpelier, VT)
KROA / ROA VOR 4.7 mi
[KROA also has ODR VOR on field!]
KAGC / AGC VOR 6.8 mi not changed
KHLG / HLG VOR 6.2 mi not changed
KTCL / LDK VOR 4.4 mi ID *and* name changed 9/2003
"The fact that the VORTAC and the airport are not
co-located has led to confusion among users. To
eliminate this confusion, the Tuscaloosa VORTAC will
be renamed ``Crimson VORTAC,'' and will be assigned a
new location identifier ``LDK.''" (lack of low level
radar coverage a factor) Docket No. 02-ASO-24
KMGM / MGM VOR 6.0 mi not changed
KCHA / GQO VOR 5.1 mi ID *and* name changed
Chattanooga VOR changed to Choo Choo to avoid confusion



> > Perhaps the relatively recent K prefix for lower 48 airports has
> > rendered the changes unnecessary.
> >
>
> There's nothing recent about that K.

I don't remember it being used before the mid 90s or so. When did the ICAO K
prefix begin to appear in front of FAA continental USA 3 letter ID's?

[Doug]

Yes, it's a tough job changing those id's. The 100k a year guy spent
weeks on the S, and then there was the 3 and the 7, whew. Tough work,
but I guess that's why they get paid the big money.

Go to Alaska, the same airport has TWO id's (or at least they did, not
sure if they've cleared up that mess yet).

Apparently there is the FAA way and the ICAO way and sometimes they
are different. And do you put a K in front of the ones with a number?
Sometimes, I've seen programs where you do.

And another thing, you look on the WAC's and it says, Carlsbad (CA),
or maybe something else. Look in the Terminal charts, nope you won't
find them under Carlsbad, hmm, maybe San Diego? They have id's why
don't they use them? Noooo, they gotta use the NAME. I thought this
was the whole reason to have id's, so we don't have two names the
same.

Oh well, some things never change. Like, life is chaotic.

Jeff Saylor > wrote in message >...
> I noticed in the new New York Sectional (just came out a few days ago)
> that the Smoketown, Pennsylvania (just east of Lancaster) has a new
> identifier, S37.
>
> Ok, identifiers change sometimes, but a few years ago Smoketown changed
> from 37PA to Q08, presumably in the effort to make public use airports 3
> digits.
>
> Now it changed yet again...why? Was there a problem with Q08--perhaps
> being confused with somebody else in the area? (Most one letter- two
> number airport IDs in Pennsylvania/ NJ begin with N.)
>
> What's even stranger is that 37PA was subsequently used by a heliport
> (IIRC) and it is now the identifier for private use Roadcap Airport in
> western PA, which was previously known as 31N. 31N has not been
> reallocated as far as I can tell.
>
> So what's with the musical identifiers? A secret evil plot by the GPS
> database providers?

[Ben Jackson]

In article >,
Jeff Saylor > wrote:
>I noticed in the new New York Sectional (just came out a few days ago)
>that the Smoketown, Pennsylvania (just east of Lancaster) has a new
>identifier, S37.

Oh NO! I just realized this is a new anagram of my home airport (7S3),
so now all 6 exist. The trip that includes all of them is MUCH longer.

My original geeky post about this:

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=Gnvib.551321%24Oz4.499621%40rwcrnsc54

It raises the 7,S,3 roundtrip from 1472nm to 4237nm!

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Jeff Saylor" > wrote in message
...
>
> I don't remember it being used before the mid 90s or so. When
> did the ICAO K prefix begin to appear in front of FAA
> continental USA 3 letter ID's?
>

I don't know when that began, but I suspect it was about the time
international air travel began to flourish after WWII. I started work at
Chicago ARTCC in 1983, they were in use by all international flights then.
You probably only became familiar with them when GPS manufacturers began
using them to distinguish between airports and navaids.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Doug" > wrote in message
om...
>
> Go to Alaska, the same airport has TWO id's (or at least they did, not
> sure if they've cleared up that mess yet).
>

K is used to prefix 3-letter airport identifiers only in the 48 contiguous
US states. The letter P is used in the Pacific region; Alaska uses A, F, O,
or P as the second letter of an ICAO identifier, Hawaii uses H. If the
first letter of an Alaskan 3-letter identifier is A, F, O, or P, then the
ICAO identifier can be the normal 3-letter identifier prefixed by P. An
example is Anchorage, the 3-letter identifier is ANC, the ICAO identifier is
PANC. If the first letter of an Alaskan 3-letter identifier is something
other than A, F, O, or P, then the ICAO identifier is usually created by
prefixing the first two letters of the 3-letter identifier by PA, PF, PO, or
PP. An example is Elmendorf, the 3-letter identifier is EDF, the ICAO
identifier is PAED.


>
> Apparently there is the FAA way and the ICAO way and sometimes
> they are different. And do you put a K in front of the ones with a
> number?
>

No.


>
> Sometimes, I've seen programs where you do.
>

Yes, some GPS manufacturers follow that convention, but a proper ICAO
identifier has no numbers.

[Jeff Saylor]

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

> "Jeff Saylor" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > I don't remember it being used before the mid 90s or so. When
> > did the ICAO K prefix begin to appear in front of FAA
> > continental USA 3 letter ID's?
> >
>
> I don't know when that began, but I suspect it was about the time
> international air travel began to flourish after WWII. I started work at
> Chicago ARTCC in 1983, they were in use by all international flights then.
> You probably only became familiar with them when GPS manufacturers began
> using them to distinguish between airports and navaids.

Interesting. When seminars discussing the then-new METAR and TAF reports
(that replaced the SA and FT wx reports) were popping up in 1995 and 1996, I
remember hearing about the "new" K prefix.

The K is beneficial to remove ambiguities in databases though I didn't have a
GPS unit back then :)

[Paul Sengupta]

"Ben Jackson" > wrote in message
news:RMqrc.4833$ny.958355@attbi_s53...
> In article >,
> Jeff Saylor > wrote:
> >I noticed in the new New York Sectional (just came out a few days ago)
> >that the Smoketown, Pennsylvania (just east of Lancaster) has a new
> >identifier, S37.
>
> Oh NO! I just realized this is a new anagram of my home airport (7S3),
> so now all 6 exist. The trip that includes all of them is MUCH longer.
>
> My original geeky post about this:
>
> http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=Gnvib.551321%24Oz4.499621%40rwcrnsc54
>
> It raises the 7,S,3 roundtrip from 1472nm to 4237nm!

Yes, I remember the original. Look at it this way...it could include
a trip which takes you to lots of interesting places on the way if
you don't just take the end point as the goal!

Paul