More Blackbird Trivia

[Jay Honeck]

After our last discussion about the SR-71 Blackbird, a debate ensued as to
whether the Blackbird actually overflew Soviet airspace, in direct violation
of the agreement the U.S. signed with the U.S.S.R. after the Francis Gary
Powers incident. This agreement forbade overflights.

I was under the impression that the U.S. *had* flown the SR-71 over
Russia -- so I decided to check with a friend who worked closely with the
Blackbird for over three decades. It turns out we're all correct, sort
of...

Here's his response:

"Hi Jay, I am still out of town but will be home later this week. The
Blackbird was banned from crossing Russia by a law congress passed after the
Gary Powers incident. We did however fly the D21 over there but it was not a
complete crossing but an in and out mission. The SR71 did fly the perimeters
and could obtain a lot of elint data that way around every edge of Russia."

So there you have it. The Blackbird itself did not overfly Russia -- but
the D21 (that weird-looking probe that was mounted on top of the Blackbird,
between the two tails) did. It was not, however, a complete crossing.

Or, at least, that's what the experts are willing to admit to us at this
point! :-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Jay Honeck" > said:
>So there you have it. The Blackbird itself did not overfly Russia -- but
>the D21 (that weird-looking probe that was mounted on top of the Blackbird,
>between the two tails) did. It was not, however, a complete crossing.

The D21 wasn't a probe, it was an unmanned drone that was launched from
the SR-71. You probably mean the same thing, but when I see "probe" I
tend to think of something that stays attached.

BTW: Everything I've read suggests the D21 was spectacularly unsuccessful.
Besides killing a few SR-71 pilots in separation accidents, they also had
a couple that never returned from missions into China, and most of the
rest that did come back were found to have not collected any data due to
glitches.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"AOL would be a giant diesel-smoking bus with hundreds of ebola victims on
board throwing dead wombats and rotten cabbage at the other cars"
- a.s.r throws the Information Superhighway metaphor into reverse.

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:pGKqc.34420$6f5.3418116@attbi_s54...
> After our last discussion about the SR-71 Blackbird, a debate ensued as to
> whether the Blackbird actually overflew Soviet airspace, in direct
violation
> of the agreement the U.S. signed with the U.S.S.R. after the Francis Gary
> Powers incident. This agreement forbade overflights.
>
> I was under the impression that the U.S. *had* flown the SR-71 over
> Russia -- so I decided to check with a friend who worked closely with the
> Blackbird for over three decades. It turns out we're all correct, sort
> of...
>
> Here's his response:
>
> "Hi Jay, I am still out of town but will be home later this week. The
> Blackbird was banned from crossing Russia by a law congress passed after
the
> Gary Powers incident. We did however fly the D21 over there but it was not
a
> complete crossing but an in and out mission. The SR71 did fly the
perimeters
> and could obtain a lot of elint data that way around every edge of
Russia."
>
> So there you have it. The Blackbird itself did not overfly Russia -- but
> the D21 (that weird-looking probe that was mounted on top of the
Blackbird,
> between the two tails) did. It was not, however, a complete crossing.
>
> Or, at least, that's what the experts are willing to admit to us at this
> point! :-)

So now he has to kill you?

[William W. Plummer]

Doesn't "overflight" mean within international airspace? Class-A goes upto
60,000 ft and the Blackbird could fly at 85,000. So it was possible for it
to overfly Russia above international airspace. But did the Agreement
write that out? If so, how was airspace and overflight defined? E.g., is
the moon overflying us?

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:pGKqc.34420$6f5.3418116@attbi_s54...
> After our last discussion about the SR-71 Blackbird, a debate ensued as to
> whether the Blackbird actually overflew Soviet airspace, in direct
violation
> of the agreement the U.S. signed with the U.S.S.R. after the Francis Gary
> Powers incident. This agreement forbade overflights.
>
> I was under the impression that the U.S. *had* flown the SR-71 over
> Russia -- so I decided to check with a friend who worked closely with the
> Blackbird for over three decades. It turns out we're all correct, sort
> of...
>
> Here's his response:
>
> "Hi Jay, I am still out of town but will be home later this week. The
> Blackbird was banned from crossing Russia by a law congress passed after
the
> Gary Powers incident. We did however fly the D21 over there but it was not
a
> complete crossing but an in and out mission. The SR71 did fly the
perimeters
> and could obtain a lot of elint data that way around every edge of
Russia."
>
> So there you have it. The Blackbird itself did not overfly Russia -- but
> the D21 (that weird-looking probe that was mounted on top of the
Blackbird,
> between the two tails) did. It was not, however, a complete crossing.
>
> Or, at least, that's what the experts are willing to admit to us at this
> point! :-)
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[Mike Rapoport]

Where did you come up with this definition or "international airspace" or
even the term?

Mike
MU-2

"William W. Plummer" > wrote in message
news:dKLqc.77875$536.12815683@attbi_s03...
> Doesn't "overflight" mean within international airspace? Class-A goes
upto
> 60,000 ft and the Blackbird could fly at 85,000. So it was possible for
it
> to overfly Russia above international airspace. But did the Agreement
> write that out? If so, how was airspace and overflight defined? E.g., is
> the moon overflying us?
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:pGKqc.34420$6f5.3418116@attbi_s54...
> > After our last discussion about the SR-71 Blackbird, a debate ensued as
to
> > whether the Blackbird actually overflew Soviet airspace, in direct
> violation
> > of the agreement the U.S. signed with the U.S.S.R. after the Francis
Gary
> > Powers incident. This agreement forbade overflights.
> >
> > I was under the impression that the U.S. *had* flown the SR-71 over
> > Russia -- so I decided to check with a friend who worked closely with
the
> > Blackbird for over three decades. It turns out we're all correct, sort
> > of...
> >
> > Here's his response:
> >
> > "Hi Jay, I am still out of town but will be home later this week. The
> > Blackbird was banned from crossing Russia by a law congress passed after
> the
> > Gary Powers incident. We did however fly the D21 over there but it was
not
> a
> > complete crossing but an in and out mission. The SR71 did fly the
> perimeters
> > and could obtain a lot of elint data that way around every edge of
> Russia."
> >
> > So there you have it. The Blackbird itself did not overfly Russia --
but
> > the D21 (that weird-looking probe that was mounted on top of the
> Blackbird,
> > between the two tails) did. It was not, however, a complete crossing.
> >
> > Or, at least, that's what the experts are willing to admit to us at this
> > point! :-)
> > --
> > Jay Honeck
> > Iowa City, IA
> > Pathfinder N56993
> > www.AlexisParkInn.com
> > "Your Aviation Destination"
> >
> >
>
>

[William W. Plummer]

ICAO -- something like "International Council on Aircraft Operations".
They define Class-A, class-B, etc. Not to mention METARs and the like.
USA adopted these in 1992 IIRC.

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Where did you come up with this definition or "international airspace" or
> even the term?
>
> Mike
> MU-2
>
> "William W. Plummer" > wrote in
message
> news:dKLqc.77875$536.12815683@attbi_s03...
> > Doesn't "overflight" mean within international airspace? Class-A goes
> upto
> > 60,000 ft and the Blackbird could fly at 85,000. So it was possible
for
> it
> > to overfly Russia above international airspace. But did the Agreement
> > write that out? If so, how was airspace and overflight defined? E.g.,
is
> > the moon overflying us?
> >
> > "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> > news:pGKqc.34420$6f5.3418116@attbi_s54...
> > > After our last discussion about the SR-71 Blackbird, a debate ensued
as
> to
> > > whether the Blackbird actually overflew Soviet airspace, in direct
> > violation
> > > of the agreement the U.S. signed with the U.S.S.R. after the Francis
> Gary
> > > Powers incident. This agreement forbade overflights.
> > >
> > > I was under the impression that the U.S. *had* flown the SR-71 over
> > > Russia -- so I decided to check with a friend who worked closely with
> the
> > > Blackbird for over three decades. It turns out we're all correct,
sort
> > > of...
> > >
> > > Here's his response:
> > >
> > > "Hi Jay, I am still out of town but will be home later this week. The
> > > Blackbird was banned from crossing Russia by a law congress passed
after
> > the
> > > Gary Powers incident. We did however fly the D21 over there but it was
> not
> > a
> > > complete crossing but an in and out mission. The SR71 did fly the
> > perimeters
> > > and could obtain a lot of elint data that way around every edge of
> > Russia."
> > >
> > > So there you have it. The Blackbird itself did not overfly Russia --
> but
> > > the D21 (that weird-looking probe that was mounted on top of the
> > Blackbird,
> > > between the two tails) did. It was not, however, a complete crossing.
> > >
> > > Or, at least, that's what the experts are willing to admit to us at
this
> > > point! :-)
> > > --
> > > Jay Honeck
> > > Iowa City, IA
> > > Pathfinder N56993
> > > www.AlexisParkInn.com
> > > "Your Aviation Destination"
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Mike Rapoport]

So where does it say that airspace above FL600 is "international airspace"?

Mike
MU-2


"William W. Plummer" > wrote in message
news:aFMqc.78028$536.12851446@attbi_s03...
> ICAO -- something like "International Council on Aircraft Operations".
> They define Class-A, class-B, etc. Not to mention METARs and the like.
> USA adopted these in 1992 IIRC.
>
> "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
> > Where did you come up with this definition or "international airspace"
or
> > even the term?
> >
> > Mike
> > MU-2
> >
> > "William W. Plummer" > wrote in
> message
> > news:dKLqc.77875$536.12815683@attbi_s03...
> > > Doesn't "overflight" mean within international airspace? Class-A
goes
> > upto
> > > 60,000 ft and the Blackbird could fly at 85,000. So it was possible
> for
> > it
> > > to overfly Russia above international airspace. But did the
Agreement
> > > write that out? If so, how was airspace and overflight defined?
E.g.,
> is
> > > the moon overflying us?
> > >
> > > "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> > > news:pGKqc.34420$6f5.3418116@attbi_s54...
> > > > After our last discussion about the SR-71 Blackbird, a debate ensued
> as
> > to
> > > > whether the Blackbird actually overflew Soviet airspace, in direct
> > > violation
> > > > of the agreement the U.S. signed with the U.S.S.R. after the Francis
> > Gary
> > > > Powers incident. This agreement forbade overflights.
> > > >
> > > > I was under the impression that the U.S. *had* flown the SR-71 over
> > > > Russia -- so I decided to check with a friend who worked closely
with
> > the
> > > > Blackbird for over three decades. It turns out we're all correct,
> sort
> > > > of...
> > > >
> > > > Here's his response:
> > > >
> > > > "Hi Jay, I am still out of town but will be home later this week.
The
> > > > Blackbird was banned from crossing Russia by a law congress passed
> after
> > > the
> > > > Gary Powers incident. We did however fly the D21 over there but it
was
> > not
> > > a
> > > > complete crossing but an in and out mission. The SR71 did fly the
> > > perimeters
> > > > and could obtain a lot of elint data that way around every edge of
> > > Russia."
> > > >
> > > > So there you have it. The Blackbird itself did not overfly
Russia --
> > but
> > > > the D21 (that weird-looking probe that was mounted on top of the
> > > Blackbird,
> > > > between the two tails) did. It was not, however, a complete
crossing.
> > > >
> > > > Or, at least, that's what the experts are willing to admit to us at
> this
> > > > point! :-)
> > > > --
> > > > Jay Honeck
> > > > Iowa City, IA
> > > > Pathfinder N56993
> > > > www.AlexisParkInn.com
> > > > "Your Aviation Destination"
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[lardsoup]

Of course it over flew the USSR. Why to you thing they build it?

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:pGKqc.34420$6f5.3418116@attbi_s54...
> After our last discussion about the SR-71 Blackbird, a debate ensued as to
> whether the Blackbird actually overflew Soviet airspace, in direct
violation
> of the agreement the U.S. signed with the U.S.S.R. after the Francis Gary
> Powers incident. This agreement forbade overflights.
>
> I was under the impression that the U.S. *had* flown the SR-71 over
> Russia -- so I decided to check with a friend who worked closely with the
> Blackbird for over three decades. It turns out we're all correct, sort
> of...
>
> Here's his response:
>
> "Hi Jay, I am still out of town but will be home later this week. The
> Blackbird was banned from crossing Russia by a law congress passed after
the
> Gary Powers incident. We did however fly the D21 over there but it was not
a
> complete crossing but an in and out mission. The SR71 did fly the
perimeters
> and could obtain a lot of elint data that way around every edge of
Russia."
>
> So there you have it. The Blackbird itself did not overfly Russia -- but
> the D21 (that weird-looking probe that was mounted on top of the
Blackbird,
> between the two tails) did. It was not, however, a complete crossing.
>
> Or, at least, that's what the experts are willing to admit to us at this
> point! :-)
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[NW_PILOT]

Want to see a SR71 Black Bird fly in to McMinnville OR you can also see the
Spruce Goose



"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:pGKqc.34420$6f5.3418116@attbi_s54...
> After our last discussion about the SR-71 Blackbird, a debate ensued as to
> whether the Blackbird actually overflew Soviet airspace, in direct
violation
> of the agreement the U.S. signed with the U.S.S.R. after the Francis Gary
> Powers incident. This agreement forbade overflights.
>
> I was under the impression that the U.S. *had* flown the SR-71 over
> Russia -- so I decided to check with a friend who worked closely with the
> Blackbird for over three decades. It turns out we're all correct, sort
> of...
>
> Here's his response:
>
> "Hi Jay, I am still out of town but will be home later this week. The
> Blackbird was banned from crossing Russia by a law congress passed after
the
> Gary Powers incident. We did however fly the D21 over there but it was not
a
> complete crossing but an in and out mission. The SR71 did fly the
perimeters
> and could obtain a lot of elint data that way around every edge of
Russia."
>
> So there you have it. The Blackbird itself did not overfly Russia -- but
> the D21 (that weird-looking probe that was mounted on top of the
Blackbird,
> between the two tails) did. It was not, however, a complete crossing.
>
> Or, at least, that's what the experts are willing to admit to us at this
> point! :-)
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[Bob Moore]

"lardsoup" > wrote

> Of course it over flew the USSR. Why to you thing they build it?

WARNING....time for another spelling lesson.

"Why *do* you *think* they *built* it?

Bob Moore

[William W. Plummer]

The International airspace only goes up to 60,000; consequently, everything
above that is simply undefined. That's the point. There's no rules that
lets a nation regulate airspace above Class A.

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> So where does it say that airspace above FL600 is "international
airspace"?
>
> Mike
> MU-2
>
>
> "William W. Plummer" > wrote in
message
> news:aFMqc.78028$536.12851446@attbi_s03...
> > ICAO -- something like "International Council on Aircraft Operations".
> > They define Class-A, class-B, etc. Not to mention METARs and the like.
> > USA adopted these in 1992 IIRC.
> >
> > "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> > ink.net...
> > > Where did you come up with this definition or "international airspace"
> or
> > > even the term?
> > >
> > > Mike
> > > MU-2
> > >
> > > "William W. Plummer" > wrote in
> > message
> > > news:dKLqc.77875$536.12815683@attbi_s03...
> > > > Doesn't "overflight" mean within international airspace? Class-A
> goes
> > > upto
> > > > 60,000 ft and the Blackbird could fly at 85,000. So it was
possible
> > for
> > > it
> > > > to overfly Russia above international airspace. But did the
> Agreement
> > > > write that out? If so, how was airspace and overflight defined?
> E.g.,
> > is
> > > > the moon overflying us?
> > > >
> > > > "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> > > > news:pGKqc.34420$6f5.3418116@attbi_s54...
> > > > > After our last discussion about the SR-71 Blackbird, a debate
ensued
> > as
> > > to
> > > > > whether the Blackbird actually overflew Soviet airspace, in direct
> > > > violation
> > > > > of the agreement the U.S. signed with the U.S.S.R. after the
Francis
> > > Gary
> > > > > Powers incident. This agreement forbade overflights.
> > > > >
> > > > > I was under the impression that the U.S. *had* flown the SR-71
over
> > > > > Russia -- so I decided to check with a friend who worked closely
> with
> > > the
> > > > > Blackbird for over three decades. It turns out we're all correct,
> > sort
> > > > > of...
> > > > >
> > > > > Here's his response:
> > > > >
> > > > > "Hi Jay, I am still out of town but will be home later this week.
> The
> > > > > Blackbird was banned from crossing Russia by a law congress passed
> > after
> > > > the
> > > > > Gary Powers incident. We did however fly the D21 over there but it
> was
> > > not
> > > > a
> > > > > complete crossing but an in and out mission. The SR71 did fly the
> > > > perimeters
> > > > > and could obtain a lot of elint data that way around every edge of
> > > > Russia."
> > > > >
> > > > > So there you have it. The Blackbird itself did not overfly
> Russia --
> > > but
> > > > > the D21 (that weird-looking probe that was mounted on top of the
> > > > Blackbird,
> > > > > between the two tails) did. It was not, however, a complete
> crossing.
> > > > >
> > > > > Or, at least, that's what the experts are willing to admit to us
at
> > this
> > > > > point! :-)
> > > > > --
> > > > > Jay Honeck
> > > > > Iowa City, IA
> > > > > Pathfinder N56993
> > > > > www.AlexisParkInn.com
> > > > > "Your Aviation Destination"
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Mike Rapoport]

No, the ABC airspace only goes up to FL600 but that does not imply that the
underlying country does not own and control airspace above FL600. Airspace
above FL600 is class E airspace in the US. Try flying over China above
FL600 or ask Gary Powers if you want more.

Mike
MU-2


"William W. Plummer" > wrote in message
news:JISqc.25937$gr.2298343@attbi_s52...
> The International airspace only goes up to 60,000; consequently,
everything
> above that is simply undefined. That's the point. There's no rules that
> lets a nation regulate airspace above Class A.
>
> "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> nk.net...
> > So where does it say that airspace above FL600 is "international
> airspace"?
> >
> > Mike
> > MU-2
> >
> >
> > "William W. Plummer" > wrote in
> message
> > news:aFMqc.78028$536.12851446@attbi_s03...
> > > ICAO -- something like "International Council on Aircraft Operations".
> > > They define Class-A, class-B, etc. Not to mention METARs and the
like.
> > > USA adopted these in 1992 IIRC.
> > >
> > > "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> > > ink.net...
> > > > Where did you come up with this definition or "international
airspace"
> > or
> > > > even the term?
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > > MU-2
> > > >
> > > > "William W. Plummer" > wrote in
> > > message
> > > > news:dKLqc.77875$536.12815683@attbi_s03...
> > > > > Doesn't "overflight" mean within international airspace? Class-A
> > goes
> > > > upto
> > > > > 60,000 ft and the Blackbird could fly at 85,000. So it was
> possible
> > > for
> > > > it
> > > > > to overfly Russia above international airspace. But did the
> > Agreement
> > > > > write that out? If so, how was airspace and overflight defined?
> > E.g.,
> > > is
> > > > > the moon overflying us?
> > > > >
> > > > > "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> > > > > news:pGKqc.34420$6f5.3418116@attbi_s54...
> > > > > > After our last discussion about the SR-71 Blackbird, a debate
> ensued
> > > as
> > > > to
> > > > > > whether the Blackbird actually overflew Soviet airspace, in
direct
> > > > > violation
> > > > > > of the agreement the U.S. signed with the U.S.S.R. after the
> Francis
> > > > Gary
> > > > > > Powers incident. This agreement forbade overflights.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I was under the impression that the U.S. *had* flown the SR-71
> over
> > > > > > Russia -- so I decided to check with a friend who worked closely
> > with
> > > > the
> > > > > > Blackbird for over three decades. It turns out we're all
correct,
> > > sort
> > > > > > of...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Here's his response:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Hi Jay, I am still out of town but will be home later this
week.
> > The
> > > > > > Blackbird was banned from crossing Russia by a law congress
passed
> > > after
> > > > > the
> > > > > > Gary Powers incident. We did however fly the D21 over there but
it
> > was
> > > > not
> > > > > a
> > > > > > complete crossing but an in and out mission. The SR71 did fly
the
> > > > > perimeters
> > > > > > and could obtain a lot of elint data that way around every edge
of
> > > > > Russia."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So there you have it. The Blackbird itself did not overfly
> > Russia --
> > > > but
> > > > > > the D21 (that weird-looking probe that was mounted on top of the
> > > > > Blackbird,
> > > > > > between the two tails) did. It was not, however, a complete
> > crossing.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Or, at least, that's what the experts are willing to admit to us
> at
> > > this
> > > > > > point! :-)
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Jay Honeck
> > > > > > Iowa City, IA
> > > > > > Pathfinder N56993
> > > > > > www.AlexisParkInn.com
> > > > > > "Your Aviation Destination"
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Jay Honeck]

> No, the ABC airspace only goes up to FL600 but that does not imply that
the
> underlying country does not own and control airspace above FL600.
Airspace
> above FL600 is class E airspace in the US. Try flying over China above
> FL600 or ask Gary Powers if you want more.

Where do satellites fit into this definition?

Or, rather, where does international outer space begin?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Want to see a SR71 Black Bird fly in to McMinnville OR you can also see
the
> Spruce Goose

SR-71s (and variants) are all over now. Closest to me is Minnesota, but
there's one in Omaha, NE and one in Dayton, OH, too.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Mike Rapoport]

I think space begins by agreement at 100km or something like that.

Mike
MU-2

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:1C2rc.28555$gr.2591276@attbi_s52...
> > No, the ABC airspace only goes up to FL600 but that does not imply that
> the
> > underlying country does not own and control airspace above FL600.
> Airspace
> > above FL600 is class E airspace in the US. Try flying over China above
> > FL600 or ask Gary Powers if you want more.
>
> Where do satellites fit into this definition?
>
> Or, rather, where does international outer space begin?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>

[William W. Plummer]

What document and organization put forth this number? What nations have
agreed to it? What happens if a non-signator violates it? What court has
jurisdiction?

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> I think space begins by agreement at 100km or something like that.
>
> Mike
> MU-2
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:1C2rc.28555$gr.2591276@attbi_s52...
> > > No, the ABC airspace only goes up to FL600 but that does not imply
that
> > the
> > > underlying country does not own and control airspace above FL600.
> > Airspace
> > > above FL600 is class E airspace in the US. Try flying over China
above
> > > FL600 or ask Gary Powers if you want more.
> >
> > Where do satellites fit into this definition?
> >
> > Or, rather, where does international outer space begin?
> > --
> > Jay Honeck
> > Iowa City, IA
> > Pathfinder N56993
> > www.AlexisParkInn.com
> > "Your Aviation Destination"
> >
> >
>
>

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Mike Rapoport" > said:
>I think space begins by agreement at 100km or something like that.

http://www.space.edu/projects/book/chapter3.html
Surely you say, some international body must have declared where space
begins. International law states that there is no definitive point where
the atmosphere ends and space begins. The major space powers accept the
following definition: Space begins at " the lowest perigee attained by
orbiting space vehicles..."

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
It's distinctly sub-optimal having a 70MPH pigeon explode all over
the inside of your vehicle.
-- Tanuki

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "William W. Plummer" > said:
>agreed to it? What happens if a non-signator violates it? What court has
>jurisdiction?

The International Court of Surface To Air Missiles.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"Look! This trout makes a better hammer than that blob of marmalade!"
- Adam J. Thornton

[Mike Rapoport]

Hopefully one of the controllers will chime in here and tell us what the
proceedure is if an unidentified aircraft is detected approaching the US
above FL600. It is probably greeted with a missle.

Nothing that I have seen or you have posted says that "international
airspace" begins at FL600 and anybody is free to overfly anywhere above this
altitude.

A practical definition of "space" is the lowest altitude where objects can
orbit which is around 100km.

Mike
MU-2

"William W. Plummer" > wrote in message
news:nP3rc.5257$Vv.394570@attbi_s51...
> What document and organization put forth this number? What nations have
> agreed to it? What happens if a non-signator violates it? What court
has
> jurisdiction?
>
> "Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
> nk.net...
> > I think space begins by agreement at 100km or something like that.
> >
> > Mike
> > MU-2
> >
> > "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> > news:1C2rc.28555$gr.2591276@attbi_s52...
> > > > No, the ABC airspace only goes up to FL600 but that does not imply
> that
> > > the
> > > > underlying country does not own and control airspace above FL600.
> > > Airspace
> > > > above FL600 is class E airspace in the US. Try flying over China
> above
> > > > FL600 or ask Gary Powers if you want more.
> > >
> > > Where do satellites fit into this definition?
> > >
> > > Or, rather, where does international outer space begin?
> > > --
> > > Jay Honeck
> > > Iowa City, IA
> > > Pathfinder N56993
> > > www.AlexisParkInn.com
> > > "Your Aviation Destination"
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Martin Hotze]

On Thu, 20 May 2004 13:43:25 GMT, Jay Honeck wrote:

>
>Where do satellites fit into this definition?
>
>Or, rather, where does international outer space begin?


google is your friend.

http://www.oosa.unvienna.org/FAQ/splawfaq.htm

#m

--
Martin!!! Maaaaartiiiin!!! Can you please flame this guy for me?
'HECTOP' in rec.aviation.piloting

[William W. Plummer]

That's a _great_ reference. Thanks. WRT nations banning flyovers above
Class-A airspace, the Treaty says:
"The Outer Space Treaty states that outer space, including the Moon
and other celestial
bodies is not subject to national appropriation by claim of
sovereignty, by means of use
or occupation, or by any other means."
So, a nation cannot ban overflights up there if they are a signator of the
Treaty.

NB: The use of "Outer Space" usually means beyond out galaxy, not typical
Earth orbits!



"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 20 May 2004 13:43:25 GMT, Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> >
> >Where do satellites fit into this definition?
> >
> >Or, rather, where does international outer space begin?
>
>
> google is your friend.
>
> http://www.oosa.unvienna.org/FAQ/splawfaq.htm
>
> #m
>
> --
> Martin!!! Maaaaartiiiin!!! Can you please flame this guy for me?
> 'HECTOP' in rec.aviation.piloting

[Mike Rapoport]

How are you arriving at the conclusion that anything above the ceiling of
class A airspace is uncontrolled? Are you saying that the Outer Space
Treaty governs from FL600?

Mike
MU-2

"William W. Plummer" > wrote in message
news:HE5rc.39064$6f5.4090191@attbi_s54...
> That's a _great_ reference. Thanks. WRT nations banning flyovers above
> Class-A airspace, the Treaty says:
> "The Outer Space Treaty states that outer space, including the Moon
> and other celestial
> bodies is not subject to national appropriation by claim of
> sovereignty, by means of use
> or occupation, or by any other means."
> So, a nation cannot ban overflights up there if they are a signator of the
> Treaty.
>
> NB: The use of "Outer Space" usually means beyond out galaxy, not typical
> Earth orbits!
>
>
>
> "Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Thu, 20 May 2004 13:43:25 GMT, Jay Honeck wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >Where do satellites fit into this definition?
> > >
> > >Or, rather, where does international outer space begin?
> >
> >
> > google is your friend.
> >
> > http://www.oosa.unvienna.org/FAQ/splawfaq.htm
> >
> > #m
> >
> > --
> > Martin!!! Maaaaartiiiin!!! Can you please flame this guy for me?
> > 'HECTOP' in rec.aviation.piloting
>
>

[G.R. Patterson III]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> Where do satellites fit into this definition?

Satellites, by definition, are located outside the Earth's atmosphere and are subject
to the restrictions and privileges of the several United Nations treaties concerning
outer space.

> Or, rather, where does international outer space begin?

The dictionary definition is "outside the Earth's atmosphere".

George Patterson
I childproofed my house, but they *still* get in.

[G.R. Patterson III]

"William W. Plummer" wrote:
>
> NB: The use of "Outer Space" usually means beyond out galaxy, not typical
> Earth orbits!

Maybe in the SciFi world, but not in the practical world. LEO is "outer space".

George Patterson
I childproofed my house, but they *still* get in.

[Gene Seibel]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message news:<dD2rc.38692$6f5.3996067@attbi_s54>...
> > Want to see a SR71 Black Bird fly in to McMinnville OR you can also see
> the
> > Spruce Goose
>
> SR-71s (and variants) are all over now. Closest to me is Minnesota, but
> there's one in Omaha, NE and one in Dayton, OH, too.

One in the lobby of the Cosmosphere in Hutchinson, KS.
http://www.cosmo.org/museums/index.html
--
Gene Seibel
Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.

[alexy]

"William W. Plummer" > wrote:

>That's a _great_ reference. Thanks. WRT nations banning flyovers above
>Class-A airspace, the Treaty says:
> "The Outer Space Treaty states that outer space, including the Moon
>and other celestial
> bodies is not subject to national appropriation by claim of
>sovereignty, by means of use
> or occupation, or by any other means."
>So, a nation cannot ban overflights up there if they are a signator of the
>Treaty.
>
>NB: The use of "Outer Space" usually means beyond out galaxy, not typical
>Earth orbits!

Not sure where it is "usually" used that way. but it is clearly NOT
being used that way here unless they misplaced the moon, since they
specifically mention the moon as one of the outer space objects
included in the treaty.
--
Alex
Make the obvious change in the return address to reply by email.

[gatt]

"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> No, the ABC airspace only goes up to FL600 but that does not imply that
the
> underlying country does not own and control airspace above FL600.
Airspace
> above FL600 is class E airspace in the US. Try flying over China above
> FL600 or ask Gary Powers if you want more.

I'd volunteer to fry flying a Blackbird at 60,000 feet over China.

I mean, if they're taking volunteers. :>

-c

[gatt]

"NW_PILOT" > wrote in message news:

> Want to see a SR71 Black Bird fly in to McMinnville OR you can also see
the
> Spruce Goose

Saw that old hoss at Dryden not too long before they took it up to
McMinnville. She was on the flightline with another Blackbird, there was a
JP-7 truck and the "follow me" truck was a star-spangled CJ-5. I'm talking
PORN, friends.

The McMinnville museum org is...weird. For example, they have the Goose,
a Blackbird, an F-15, a bf109 with the original engine, B-17, P-38, P-51,
yaddayaddayadda... Yet, last time I stood in line to pay admission they had
a board up asking for donations. Cameras, projectors, VCRs, brooms. The
thing is, they were specifying things like "VCR -4 head Hi Fi" These guys
have an SR-71 and I'm paying close to ten bucks to get in, but they can't
afford a frickin mop?!

I volunteered for a couple of years, got to ride around in the B-17 etc.
Now, you have to go through a background check, fill out all kinds of
paperwork, go to mandatory orientation meetings and put in a minimum number
of hours a month. Sounds to me more like unpaid part-type employment than
"volunteer" work.

Kinda creepy.
-c

[gatt]

"Gene Seibel" > wrote in message

> > SR-71s (and variants) are all over now. Closest to me is Minnesota, but
> > there's one in Omaha, NE and one in Dayton, OH, too.
>
> One in the lobby of the Cosmosphere in Hutchinson, KS.
> http://www.cosmo.org/museums/index.html

They've got the A-12 at the Boeing museum, and you can sit in the cockpit of
one that wrecked. It's comical...all the kids line up and fight to get into
the F-18 cockpit. The dads, having abandoned them, can be found lurking
around the Blackbird. I sat in it for awhile and got so engrossed in the
cockpit that I forgot to look out the windscreen.

And, no, I didn't not scream and holler and cry like a baby when it was my
turn to get out. But I thought about it! :>

-c

[Peter Duniho]

"gatt" > wrote in message
...
> They've got the A-12 at the Boeing museum, and you can sit in the cockpit
of
> one that wrecked.

Never heard of a Boeing museum.

Maybe you mean the Museum of Flight, located at Boeing Field near Seattle?
They have one.

Pete

[Dave S]

It would be intercepted and identified, as are all other unidentified
targets.

I know the F15 can make it up that high.. im not sure about some of the
other interceptors..

Dave

Mike Rapoport wrote:

> Hopefully one of the controllers will chime in here and tell us what the
> proceedure is if an unidentified aircraft is detected approaching the US
> above FL600. It is probably greeted with a missle.
>
> Nothing that I have seen or you have posted says that "international
> airspace" begins at FL600 and anybody is free to overfly anywhere above this
> altitude.
>
> A practical definition of "space" is the lowest altitude where objects can
> orbit which is around 100km.
>
> Mike
> MU-2
>
> "William W. Plummer" > wrote in message
> news:nP3rc.5257$Vv.394570@attbi_s51...
>
>>What document and organization put forth this number? What nations have
>>agreed to it? What happens if a non-signator violates it? What court
>
> has
>
>>jurisdiction?
>>
>>"Mike Rapoport" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>>
>>>I think space begins by agreement at 100km or something like that.
>>>
>>>Mike
>>>MU-2
>>>
>>>"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
>>>news:1C2rc.28555$gr.2591276@attbi_s52...
>>>
>>>>>No, the ABC airspace only goes up to FL600 but that does not imply
>>
>>that
>>
>>>>the
>>>>
>>>>>underlying country does not own and control airspace above FL600.
>>>>
>>>>Airspace
>>>>
>>>>>above FL600 is class E airspace in the US. Try flying over China
>>
>>above
>>
>>>>>FL600 or ask Gary Powers if you want more.
>>>>
>>>>Where do satellites fit into this definition?
>>>>
>>>>Or, rather, where does international outer space begin?
>>>>--
>>>>Jay Honeck
>>>>Iowa City, IA
>>>>Pathfinder N56993
>>>>www.AlexisParkInn.com
>>>>"Your Aviation Destination"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

[gatt]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote in message

> > They've got the A-12 at the Boeing museum, and you can sit in the
cockpit
> of one that wrecked.
>
> Never heard of a Boeing museum.
>
> Maybe you mean the Museum of Flight, located at Boeing Field near Seattle?
> They have one.

Yeah, sure, whatever. Pedantic Zero you are cleared to f'k off. ;>

There's also the Boeing restoration facility at Paine Field. Many of the
projects that go to the BOEING MUSEUM are restored there, and admission is
free.

-c

[Peter Duniho]

"gatt" > wrote in message
...
> [...]
> There's also the Boeing restoration facility at Paine Field. Many of the
> projects that go to the BOEING MUSEUM are restored there, and admission is
> free.

Never heard of the Boeing restoration facility.

However, the Museum of Flight (found at Boeing Field) does have a
restoration facility at Paine Field. Maybe that's the one you're thinking
of?

Admission to the Museum of Flight is free the first Thursday of every month.

Pete

[Greg Copeland]

On Thu, 20 May 2004 15:20:27 +0000, Paul Tomblin wrote:

> In a previous article, "William W. Plummer" > said:
>>agreed to it? What happens if a non-signator violates it? What court has
>>jurisdiction?
>
> The International Court of Surface To Air Missiles.

LOL! I hear the judges there have rather explosive tempers too! Best not
to go to that court. Well, some might say *just* sending your attourney
would be a good start! ;)