Getting around company insurance policy

[Iain Wilson]

I've got a business trip in a couple of weeks and it looks like the perfect
opportunity to 'beat' the airlines, get some great x-country time and apply
my license in a practical way.

I need to get to Houghton in the UP of MI from Chicago. It's basically 300
miles due north: ~3 hours in the 172 rental. 4 hours door to door max.
(nasty winds, TS's, Tornados aside)
In the airlines, I have to fly to Minneapolis first which works out to ~ 500
miles, 2 flights and ~7 hours door to door.
The rental cost is a little more expensive but I've no problem paying the
difference - So, let's go...

....Our company handbook explicitly states that the use of private aircraft
is not allowed. So I asked if I could get a waiver and the answer back from
the insurance company was a "Big No".
As far as the FAA is concerned, it's fine for a PP to get to a place of work
this way.

Anyone found a way around this that'll keep everyone happy?

thanks

Iain

[EDR]

In article . net>,
Iain Wilson > wrote:

> I've got a business trip in a couple of weeks and it looks like the perfect
> opportunity to 'beat' the airlines, get some great x-country time and apply
> my license in a practical way.
>
> I need to get to Houghton in the UP of MI from Chicago. It's basically 300
> miles due north: ~3 hours in the 172 rental. 4 hours door to door max.
> (nasty winds, TS's, Tornados aside)
> In the airlines, I have to fly to Minneapolis first which works out to ~ 500
> miles, 2 flights and ~7 hours door to door.
> The rental cost is a little more expensive but I've no problem paying the
> difference - So, let's go...
>
> ...Our company handbook explicitly states that the use of private aircraft
> is not allowed. So I asked if I could get a waiver and the answer back from
> the insurance company was a "Big No".
> As far as the FAA is concerned, it's fine for a PP to get to a place of work
> this way.
>
> Anyone found a way around this that'll keep everyone happy?

Contact the National Business Aircraft Association.
Back in the 1980's they put out a document kit with information on how
to fly for business using private aircraft.
One of the items listed was to have an insurance policy including your
company as named insured. I realize that is pretty vague, but that was
the one item I remember.

[OtisWinslow]

Well .. one way would be to take vacation or personal time for the hours
spent traveling and submit it in writing ahead of time. Then report for work
at the location of the meeting. That way you're traveling on your own
time. Or you could take comp time and work extra at another time so
as to not lose the hours.

A few years ago I listed my company as an additional insured and it
was around $100 extra per year. I found that I only used the plane once
so I never renewed that binder.




"Iain Wilson" > wrote in message
link.net...
> I've got a business trip in a couple of weeks and it looks like the
perfect
> opportunity to 'beat' the airlines, get some great x-country time and
apply
> my license in a practical way.
>
> I need to get to Houghton in the UP of MI from Chicago. It's basically 300
> miles due north: ~3 hours in the 172 rental. 4 hours door to door max.
> (nasty winds, TS's, Tornados aside)
> In the airlines, I have to fly to Minneapolis first which works out to ~
500
> miles, 2 flights and ~7 hours door to door.
> The rental cost is a little more expensive but I've no problem paying the
> difference - So, let's go...
>
> ...Our company handbook explicitly states that the use of private aircraft
> is not allowed. So I asked if I could get a waiver and the answer back
from
> the insurance company was a "Big No".
> As far as the FAA is concerned, it's fine for a PP to get to a place of
work
> this way.
>
> Anyone found a way around this that'll keep everyone happy?
>
> thanks
>
> Iain
>
>

[Bill Denton]

Why on earth anyone would worry about insurance is totally beyond me! After
all, you don't think anything bad is going to happen, do you? Why bother
with any aviation insurance? Nothing bad ever happens to pilots as good as
you, so it's simply a waste of money.

Food for thought; now on to the serious stuff...

A post was made to a newsgroup seeking ways of getting around an insurance
requirement. Why not simply call up an insurance company? Most of them will
have about 20 guys, each of whom can give you about 100 different scams
people have tried using to beat insurance requirements. None of which
worked.

Most of the time, when an incident occurs, any insurance company with an
interest in the situation has the right to examine the vehicle, all of it's
contents, and you (or your body). Let's see: a nice blue suit in a dry
cleaning bag and an attaché case in the baggage compartment; no other
luggage. A laptop loaded with PowerPoint slides labeled "Michigan Region". A
Jensen computer technician's tool kit and two 170 GB hard drives in sealed
shipping boxes; no other luggage.

Try to convince the insurance company that it was not a business trip. And
you have to convince them it wasn't, the insurance company (generally)
doesn't have to convince anyone it was a business trip. The insurance
company can deny payment based on the flight having been a business trip; if
you don't like it, you have to sue the insurance company. And who do you
suppose is going to have the best lawyers?

A lot of people think this restriction against business travel in "personal"
aircraft is stupid. I would totally agree, if it were still 1965. But at a
time when someone can collect five million bucks by voluntarily pigging out
on Big Macs and turning into a lard-ass, companies are more than a little
unwilling to run the risk of assuming any additional liability.

I'm not coming down on anybody, but I think things like this deserve some
serious thought now and then...


"OtisWinslow" > wrote in message
...
> Well .. one way would be to take vacation or personal time for the hours
> spent traveling and submit it in writing ahead of time. Then report for
work
> at the location of the meeting. That way you're traveling on your own
> time. Or you could take comp time and work extra at another time so
> as to not lose the hours.
>
> A few years ago I listed my company as an additional insured and it
> was around $100 extra per year. I found that I only used the plane once
> so I never renewed that binder.
>
>
>
>
> "Iain Wilson" > wrote in message
> link.net...
> > I've got a business trip in a couple of weeks and it looks like the
> perfect
> > opportunity to 'beat' the airlines, get some great x-country time and
> apply
> > my license in a practical way.
> >
> > I need to get to Houghton in the UP of MI from Chicago. It's basically
300
> > miles due north: ~3 hours in the 172 rental. 4 hours door to door max.
> > (nasty winds, TS's, Tornados aside)
> > In the airlines, I have to fly to Minneapolis first which works out to ~
> 500
> > miles, 2 flights and ~7 hours door to door.
> > The rental cost is a little more expensive but I've no problem paying
the
> > difference - So, let's go...
> >
> > ...Our company handbook explicitly states that the use of private
aircraft
> > is not allowed. So I asked if I could get a waiver and the answer back
> from
> > the insurance company was a "Big No".
> > As far as the FAA is concerned, it's fine for a PP to get to a place of
> work
> > this way.
> >
> > Anyone found a way around this that'll keep everyone happy?
> >
> > thanks
> >
> > Iain
> >
> >
>
>

[Jim Weir]

No problem.

I've been doing it for forty years in one venue or another. Tell the powers
that be that you are "driving" this trip. (And don't tell them what you are
"driving".)

When you get back, MapQuest the mileage between your home and the meeting
location. Multiply by the company allowed auto mileage or the IRS rate,
whichever gives you a better number. Put the mileage on your expense
report...and buck the sucker up with all the parking fees and other incidentals
that you can dream up. Since you are already back and safe, nobody is going to
question what you "drove" to the meeting. You will find that it will come
pretty darned close to the airplane rental cost.

If anybody questions why you are driving instead of flying, plead
airlineophobia. (There is an actual clinical name for fear of flying on an
airliner, but I don't remember what it is. Anybody else help here?)

If you DON'T get back safe, the company is harmless in that they expressly
forbade you to fly. The aircraft insurance company can't bitch, in that the
travel was incidental to your business...you weren't paid to FLY, you were paid
to MEET.

No problem.

Jim





->...Our company handbook explicitly states that the use of private aircraft
->is not allowed. So I asked if I could get a waiver and the answer back from
->the insurance company was a "Big No".
->As far as the FAA is concerned, it's fine for a PP to get to a place of work
->this way.

Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

[Tom Sixkiller]

"Iain Wilson" > wrote in message
link.net...
> ...Our company handbook explicitly states that the use of private aircraft
> is not allowed. So I asked if I could get a waiver and the answer back
from
> the insurance company was a "Big No".
> As far as the FAA is concerned, it's fine for a PP to get to a place of
work
> this way.
>
> Anyone found a way around this that'll keep everyone happy?

Yeah...work for a company (preferably founded by two ex-air force jocks and
a USMC recon dude) that owns three aircraft and has strict (but doable)
limits on using the companies aircraft for company business, not your own or
a rental.

:~)

[OtisWinslow]

"Bill Denton" > wrote in message
...
> I'm not coming down on anybody,

Mmmmm. Could have fooled me.

Realistically, who cares what the company insurance company thinks if you
crashed and
you're dead. You buy your own insurance to cover you, and personal policies
cover personal
and business use so long as it's not for hire. You can fly where you want
and you're covered.
And if you're not being paid for the time you're flying, then you're not
working.

[Bill Denton]

Hey, do whatever you want to do, it doesn't really make much difference to
me. But you might want to keep this in mind:

Liability extends after death, into the decedent's estate. So what you would
probably end up with is your company's insuror in a ****ing contest with
your private insuror while the sheriff puts your wife and kids in the street
while taking your house and anything else you own.

All of us accept risks; there are no certainties in life. But to me, it's
pretty foolish to accept a risk when you don't know what liability is
attached to it...



"OtisWinslow" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Bill Denton" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I'm not coming down on anybody,
>
> Mmmmm. Could have fooled me.
>
> Realistically, who cares what the company insurance company thinks if you
> crashed and
> you're dead. You buy your own insurance to cover you, and personal
policies
> cover personal
> and business use so long as it's not for hire. You can fly where you want
> and you're covered.
> And if you're not being paid for the time you're flying, then you're not
> working.
>
>
>

[III]

A co-worker did that. Somehow, the execs found out and he was told
that if he did it again he'd be fired. So, keep your mouth shut. Also,
you are probably good for one trip, at least!


Jim Weir > wrote in message >...
> No problem.
>
> I've been doing it for forty years in one venue or another. Tell the powers
> that be that you are "driving" this trip. (And don't tell them what you are
> "driving".)

[Kyle Boatright]

"Bill Denton" > wrote in message
...
> Hey, do whatever you want to do, it doesn't really make much difference to
> me. But you might want to keep this in mind:
>
> Liability extends after death, into the decedent's estate. So what you
would
> probably end up with is your company's insuror in a ****ing contest with
> your private insuror while the sheriff puts your wife and kids in the
street
> while taking your house and anything else you own.
>
> All of us accept risks; there are no certainties in life. But to me, it's
> pretty foolish to accept a risk when you don't know what liability is
> attached to it...


I don't see how flying on business has any more risk to the pilot or his
estate than flying to a pancake breakfast. Either you're willing to take
the risk to fly, drive your car, or walk down the sidewalk, or you're not...

The thing you risk by not following company policy is losing your job.
Where I work, we have a company policy against using your personal aircraft
for business travel. The clever/deviant/nonconformer pilots amongst us have
often considered borrowing someone else's airplane to make a trip, because
that wouldn't violate the letter of the policy. Intent is another thing....

KB

[G.R. Patterson III]

Iain Wilson wrote:
>
> ...Our company handbook explicitly states that the use of private aircraft
> is not allowed.

I'm a little puzzled here. You mention insurance in the subject, but this sentence
sounds more like an "employee practices" deal. Is this "handbook" basically a list of
what the company allows employees to do? If so, insurance has little or nothing to do
with it. Rent that plane, and they will fire you. They are probably concerned about
getting sued.

George Patterson
I childproofed my house, but they *still* get in.

[BTIZ]

flying on company business.. opens up the company to increased liability if
something were to happen... they (companies or insurance coverage) don't
like that...

Those that do "allow" it, normally specify commercial and instrument ratings
are required.

BT

"Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Bill Denton" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Hey, do whatever you want to do, it doesn't really make much difference
to
> > me. But you might want to keep this in mind:
> >
> > Liability extends after death, into the decedent's estate. So what you
> would
> > probably end up with is your company's insuror in a ****ing contest with
> > your private insuror while the sheriff puts your wife and kids in the
> street
> > while taking your house and anything else you own.
> >
> > All of us accept risks; there are no certainties in life. But to me,
it's
> > pretty foolish to accept a risk when you don't know what liability is
> > attached to it...
>
>
> I don't see how flying on business has any more risk to the pilot or his
> estate than flying to a pancake breakfast. Either you're willing to take
> the risk to fly, drive your car, or walk down the sidewalk, or you're
not...
>
> The thing you risk by not following company policy is losing your job.
> Where I work, we have a company policy against using your personal
aircraft
> for business travel. The clever/deviant/nonconformer pilots amongst us
have
> often considered borrowing someone else's airplane to make a trip, because
> that wouldn't violate the letter of the policy. Intent is another
thing....
>
> KB
>
>

[Teacherjh]

>>
A lot of people think this restriction against business travel in "personal"
aircraft is stupid. I would totally agree, if it were still 1965. But at a
time when someone can collect five million bucks by voluntarily pigging out
on Big Macs and turning into a lard-ass, companies are more than a little
unwilling to run the risk of assuming any additional liability.
<<

They let you go in a motorcycle, no?

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

[John Gaquin]

"Iain Wilson" > wrote in message news:vxlrc.23883

> I've got a business trip in a couple of weeks.....

Be sure to let us all know how things turn out. I think you should put a
lot of effort into circumventing any rules that you personally think are
silly or that inconvenience you. The world will work a lot better that way.

[John Gaquin]

"Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message news:r-

> Where I work, we have a company policy against using your personal
aircraft
> for business travel. The clever/deviant/nonconformer pilots amongst us
have
> often considered borrowing someone else's airplane to make a trip, because
> that wouldn't violate the letter of the policy. Intent is another
thing....

Solution is simple. Start your own company, so you can make the rules.

[Iain Wilson]

Well it's both - a lot of the restrictions are based on insurance
requirements. There's a bunch of rules for car rental relating to insurance
..
When I asked the VP, he said let me check with the insurance company...he
sounded like he didn't have a problem particularly since I'd sign a waiver.

Iain



>
> I'm a little puzzled here. You mention insurance in the subject, but this
sentence
> sounds more like an "employee practices" deal. Is this "handbook"
basically a list of
> what the company allows employees to do? If so, insurance has little or
nothing to do
> with it. Rent that plane, and they will fire you. They are probably
concerned about
> getting sued.
>
> George Patterson
> I childproofed my house, but they *still* get in.

[Iain Wilson]

True but I was wanting to expense the cost. Paying the difference of the
airline ticket or driving costs.
To get reimbursed, you need to submit expenses which requires conformity
with company rules...

bah!

Iain



"OtisWinslow" > wrote in message
...
> Well .. one way would be to take vacation or personal time for the hours
> spent traveling and submit it in writing ahead of time. Then report for
work
> at the location of the meeting. That way you're traveling on your own
> time. Or you could take comp time and work extra at another time so
> as to not lose the hours.
>

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Fri, 21 May 2004 11:15:39 GMT, "Iain Wilson" >
wrote:

>...Our company handbook explicitly states that the use of private aircraft
>is not allowed. So I asked if I could get a waiver and the answer back from
>the insurance company was a "Big No".
>As far as the FAA is concerned, it's fine for a PP to get to a place of work
>this way.
>
>Anyone found a way around this that'll keep everyone happy?

You will need to either change or violate your company's policies. The
latter might be detrimental to your continued employment, and would likely
not result in appropriate reimbursement for your expenses.

I believe that AOPA probably has information regarding arguments you can
use to possibly get your company's policies changed.

But you may not be successful.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Iain Wilson]

You sly dog! I should have kept shtoom and consulted the group first.
Well, I ran the numbers. Care mileage: 834 miles @ 34.5c/mi = $288. 6 hours
Plane rental = $540.
$100 for travel meals, tolls, parking, emergency laundry.. > $152 out of
pocket or $25/hour for the plane.
Not bad at all.

Iain


"Jim Weir" > wrote in message
...
> No problem.
>
> I've been doing it for forty years in one venue or another. Tell the
powers
> that be that you are "driving" this trip. (And don't tell them what you
are
> "driving".)
>

[W.R. \Gig\ Giacona]

"OtisWinslow" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Bill Denton" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I'm not coming down on anybody,
>
> Mmmmm. Could have fooled me.
>
> Realistically, who cares what the company insurance company thinks if you
> crashed and
> you're dead. You buy your own insurance to cover you, and personal
policies
> cover personal
> and business use so long as it's not for hire. You can fly where you want
> and you're covered.
> And if you're not being paid for the time you're flying, then you're not
> working.
>

This could be a Workers' Compensation issue. Many carriers specificly will
con cover companies whose fly GA aircraft in the futherance of there duties.